Crowley Admits She Was Wrong . Great

[heckofajobbrownie]

Yes, Steve, I believe different things than you do. And when I don't agree with you, you can imagine it's because I'm a "true believer" or because I'm shilling for my hero, or whatever you feel like, because those are the only ways you can imagine you've won any of these arguments. Because you can't win them on merit this is what you do instead. One day you'll understand that these aren't arguments. They're put downs. And tired, childish ones at that. As much as i try to pry it from you, or point out that this is what you're always doing (seriously, just read your last post) this is your crutch. This is all you can do.

 

Or think about this: how often do I accuse you of shilling for your hero Mitt Romney? Of being a died-in-the-wool Republican foot soldier? Well, pretty much never. Because I don't need to.

 

The truth of the matter is I almost always think you're wrong. Often you're just factually wrong. And what's more, I almost always think your reasoning is flawed even when I do agree with you. Your inability to make distinctions, to differentiate between two unlike things, to see nuance, and the way you substitute your uninformed cynicism for political savvy are what keeps you playing double A ball.

[heckofajobbrownie]

Condi Rice: "But when things are unfolding very, very quickly, it’s not always easy to know what is really going on on the ground. And to my mind, the really important questions here are about how information was collected. Did the various agencies really coordinate and share intelligence in the way that we had hoped, with the reforms that were made after 9/11? So there’s a big picture to be examined here. But we don’t have all of the pieces, and I think it’s easy to try and jump to conclusions about what might have happened here. It’s probably better to let the relevant bodies do their work."

[DieHardBrownsFan]

Condi Rice: "But when things are unfolding very, very quickly, it's not always easy to know what is really going on on the ground. And to my mind, the really important questions here are about how information was collected. Did the various agencies really coordinate and share intelligence in the way that we had hoped, with the reforms that were made after 9/11? So there's a big picture to be examined here. But we don't have all of the pieces, and I think it's easy to try and jump to conclusions about what might have happened here. It's probably better to let the relevant bodies do their work."

 

[Westside Steve]

Yes, Steve, I believe different things than you do. And when I don't agree with you, you can imagine it's because I'm a "true believer" or because I'm shilling for my hero, or whatever you feel like, because those are the only ways you can imagine you've won any of these arguments. Because you can't win them on merit this is what you do instead. One day you'll understand that these aren't arguments. They're put downs. And tired, childish ones at that. As much as i try to pry it from you, or point out that this is what you're always doing (seriously, just read your last post) this is your crutch. This is all you can do.

 

Or think about this: how often do I accuse you of shilling for your hero Mitt Romney? Of being a died-in-the-wool Republican foot soldier? Well, pretty much never. Because I don't need to.

 

The truth of the matter is I almost always think you're wrong. Often you're just factually wrong. And what's more, I almost always think your reasoning is flawed even when I do agree with you. Your inability to make distinctions, to differentiate between two unlike things, to see nuance, and the way you substitute your uninformed cynicism for political savvy are what keeps you playing double A ball.

Well here are a couple thoughts Chum.

First of all you don't spend much time accusing me of being a Romney shill because, well, I'm not.

You do accuse me of being a constant Obama detractor. Could be. I don't think he's awesome.

 

But, ironically, in a post which accuses me of having nothing to bring to the table you've filled it with nothing but personal insults.

And that's mostly what you do.

 

I think anyone who cares to look at any of our jousting with an open mind can see that.

WSS

[calfoxwc]

So, heckbunker, you are saying that the Bush admin had a drone over the Twin Towers on 9l11 and watched it real time?

 

Stupidass = heckbunker

 

No wonder most of us kick you ass on a daily basis, when you have the nads to show up.

 

You're unable to think and reason about any issue.

 

More than one lib cherry picked fact, and you go berserk with name calling and other standard heckbunker slurs.

 

boring.

[heckofajobbrownie]

Well here are a couple thoughts Chum.

First of all you don't spend much time accusing me of being a Romney shill because, well, I'm not.

You do accuse me of being a constant Obama detractor. Could be. I don't think he's awesome.

 

But, ironically, in a post which accuses me of having nothing to bring to the table you've filled it with nothing but personal insults.

And that's mostly what you do.

 

I think anyone who cares to look at any of our jousting with an open mind can see that.

WSS

 

I'll stand by what I wrote.

 

Or let's try it this way: see if you can avoid accusing me of reflexively defending Obama as best you can. See if you can cut it out for a week. Just take what I write as coming from me, someone who likely doesn't agree with you.Then take out the part where you simply retort some version of "the left does it too." Then see what you're left with.

 

Want to try that?

[calfoxwc]

heckbunker was a Gore shill,

 

and a Kerry shill...

 

maybe even a Carter shill....

 

and a Clinton shill...

 

and an ObaMao toe licker. Why is heckbunker even here?

 

he stinks.

[The Cysko Kid]

heckbunker was a Gore shill,

 

and a Kerry shill...

 

maybe even a Carter shill....

 

and a Clinton shill...

 

and an ObaMao toe licker. Why is heckbunker even here?

 

he stinks.

 

 

And you are totally fair to democrats right? Not a republican shill at all?

[Westside Steve]

I'll stand by what I wrote.

 

Or let's try it this way: see if you can avoid accusing me of reflexively defending Obama as best you can. See if you can cut it out for a week. Just take what I write as coming from me, someone who likely doesn't agree with you.Then take out the part where you simply retort some version of "the left does it too." Then see what you're left with.

 

Want to try that?

Something you might want to try if that bothers you so much.

Before you write your defense ask yourself this: " Would I have been so gung ho in my support had this candidate being a Republican?"

 

And as you should know it's only a few situations in which I feel you defend Democrats for things you would pillory Republicans for.

Foreign policy for instance. Pandering for another.

 

Other issues such as the idea we can tax our way out of any siruation, well I just think you are wrong there. Okay?

 

WSS

[heckofajobbrownie]

Apparently you can't help yourself because you just did it again.

[Westside Steve]

Apparently you can't help yourself because you just did it again.

IOW Sorry Steve, I can't agree to a 2 sided bargain.

 

Understood.

WSS

[heckofajobbrownie]

I won't question your motives. You can't take a break a break from questioning mine. Seems easy enough.

 

I think you're worried about it because it leaves you with very few arrows for you quiver.

[Westside Steve]

I won't question your motives. You can't take a break a break from questioning mine. Seems easy enough.

 

I think you're worried about it because it leaves you with very few arrows for you quiver.

I'm a little curious as to which issues you find fault with?

There are probably quite a few, a great many of which I doubt either party will handle correctly.

Do you think I use a double standard?

Believe it or not do try not to.

WSS

[heckofajobbrownie]

Or let's try this, because this is what I continually have to wade through. Here's a perfect example:

 

Look ma'am you might have mistaken me for someone who gives a s*** about human rights.

You and your ilk give us all a load of shite a while back about torture.

 

Personally I'm happy to stick somebody's head under the water for a while if I thought it might save a bunch of my own countrymen

Some of you guys said you wouldn't do it even if your wife or child might be at risk.

 

Now you want to shoot down some guys who have Arab names who might have something to do with the attack.

Because you think it makes Obama look like he has a big dick.

 

See what you did there?

 

In this thread you accuse me of hypocrisy, and you mention torture, and how you're for it and that "You and your ilk give us all a load of shite a while back about torture." Yes, because we were against torture! The Bush administration was for torture, and the Obama administration is not, and ended the practice of "enhanced interrogation techniques." And I was against it when Bush did it, and I'm happy that the Obama administration ended it. So ...where's the hypocrisy there? There isn't any. You found a place where you and I disagree. And completely.

 

Then you move on to conflating two issues: our government approving torture techniques and using them on prisoners we've captured, and targeting terrorists who attack us. And then you accuse me of hypocrisy, and that I like it because my goal is to make Obama "look like he has a big dick."

 

Identify disagreement, mischaracterize what the disagreement is about, change the subject, and then accuse me of being a shill based on that thing you just made up. Delightful.

 

Or take this thread. You see, me? I couldn't argue that Mitt Romney didn't say "act of terror" for 14 days when I can go back and see all the places he did say "act of terror" within the first 14 days. I wouldn't be able to do that. I'd just say, "Oh, you're right. My bad." Because i'm not 12.

 

And I certainly wouldn't do that and then accuse someone else of using talking points or shilling for a candidate.

[Westside Steve]

I think you're comparing 2 different arguments.

First I will admit that sometimes I call on you to defend the ridiculous statements made by members your party.

Aside from that I think the hypocrisy charge is a fair one.

 

Coercing information from a captured terrorist is bad but blowing up suspects in the street or in their homes is acceptable.

 

You can probably at least understand why that's a little odd.

 

WSS

[heckofajobbrownie]

No, not really. It would require you being able to make the distinction between someone who is captured and subdued and someone who isn't. I'm not all that confident there.

 

Look, you don't care about human rights, or Western legal traditions. That's okay. But once you admit that your opinion on the subject is that the state can and should torture prisoners and that you don't care for human rights ....I'm sorry, that's just unamerican. It's fascistic. Also creepy.

[Westside Steve]

Putting your friends family and countrymen at risk because you won't use enhanced interrogation tactics is creepy.

WSS

[heckofajobbrownie]

Thank you, George Orwell.

 

Yes, as you can see from the last four years, the difference between terrorists attacking our homeland and not attacking our homeland is whether we're willing to dispense with Western legal tradition and the rule of law and embrace torture of terrorist and criminal suspects.

 

Not having legalized torture enshrined in our laws has led to numerous attacks on our homeland, as we all can see. The right-wing predictions have all come true. Obama just doesn't know what it takes to defend this country. And that's torture.

[Westside Steve]

Thank you, George Orwell.

 

Yes, as you can see from the last four years, the difference between terrorists attacking our homeland and not attacking our homeland is whether we're willing to dispense with Western legal tradition and the rule of law and embrace torture of terrorist and criminal suspects.

 

Not having legalized torture enshrined in our laws has led to numerous attacks on our homeland, as we all can see. The right-wing predictions have all come true. Obama just doesn't know what it takes to defend this country. And that's torture.

Killing women and children in Afghanistan must work too.

WSS

[heckofajobbrownie]

It sure doesn't make Obama very popular in Pakistan.

 

[calfoxwc]

AHA !

 

I knew it. Pigheart ObaMao's "October Surprise" ...

 

he's going to give the rest of the world the vote for pres.

 

Meanwhile, a certain advisor to Obamao advised him to bow to other leaders,

 

to show humility to countries we want to be friends with...

 

and to put down our country as a way of "reaching out" to them.

 

What a bunch of skunk butts we have in our WH.

[The Cysko Kid]

I'm surprised that in that skewed graph there's any support for romney in Kenya at all.

[DieHardBrownsFan]

It sure doesn't make Obama very popular in Pakistan.

 

 

The new "world" President.

[Westside Steve]

Well if someone asked me who I wanted to see as the new coach of the Pittsburgh Steelers I'd choose the guy I thought would bring them the least chance of winning too.

WSS

[Westside Steve]

I'm surprised that in that skewed graph there's any support for romney in Kenya at all.

No kidding.

Then again he wasn't born there.

WSS

[DieHardBrownsFan]

 

Father of Ty Woods, Slain SEAL: White House Told ‘Pack of Lies’; ‘They are the Murderers of My Son’

Posted on 27 October, 2012 by Amy

 

 

 

Charles Woods, father of Ty Woods, the former Navy SEAL who died while trying to save the U.S. Ambassador to Libya on 9/11, speaking to Megyn Kelly on the Fox News Channel;

 

“I appreciate your introduction, and I do want to reiterate this, and really emphasize again, this is not about politics. This is about–if it were about politics, it would dishonor my son’s death. This has to do with honesty and integrity and justice…

 

This news that he disobeyed his orders does not surprise me. My son was an American hero. And he was going–he had the moral strength to do what was right. Even if that would professionally cost him his job. Even if it would potentially cost him his life. He was a hero who was willing to do whatever was necessary to respond to their cries for help.

 

If, in fact, those people in the White House were as courageous, and had the moral strength that my son Ty had, immediately, within minutes of when they found there was the first attack, they would have stepped–they would have given permission, not denied permission, for those C-130s to have gone up there. And this is exact–I don’t know much about weapons, but it’s coming out right now that they actually had laser targets focused on the mortars being sent to kill my son and they refused to pull the trigger. They refused to send those C-130s.

 

To me–I’m an attorney, this may not legal test of murder. But to me, that is not only cowardice. For those people who made the decision and who knew about the decision and lied about it are murderers of my son.

 

That’s a very strong statement for me to make. But for their benefit, they need to bare their conscience, they need to stand up, and they need to change the direction of their lives.

 

And I want to say right now: you know who you are. I totally forgive you. But I hope years from now, you change the direction of your life. For your benefit…

 

This is all a pack of lies. And that’s one thing as a father whose son who has been killed–I do not appreciate lies. I do not appreciate cowardice. And I do not appreciate lies.

 

And I’m a loving person. I love my son, and I want to honor him. And I hope I’m not speaking too strongly, but I am very glad the facts are coming out right now. I do not–the reason I’m even speaking up–we, our family had made the decision not to say anything. But after the facts came out that in real time, the White House, within minutes after the first bullet was fired, they watched my son–they denied his pleas for help.

 

My son violated his orders in order to protect the lives of at least 30 people. He risked his life to be a hero. I wish that the leadership in the White House had the same moral courage that my son displayed with his life…

 

I sent you those pictures of him in high school, and I wanted you to show those to the people out there for one reason, and that is so that people can be inspired and know that Ty was just a normal kid, okay? We were an imperfect family, but we were a normal family. And I would hope that his legacy would live on. And that we would raise up a generation of American heroes, and that they would be inspired by his pictures and his life, and that we would raise up a generation of American heroes that are strong morally and strong in every other aspect of their life.

 

We do not need another generation of liars who lack the moral strength that my son, who was an American hero, had…

 

I really wish the best to those people that allowed my son to be murdered. And I mean that very sincerely. I want the best for them. But they need to stand up, and they need to change the direction of their lives.”