Mandatory Sentencing

[heckofajobbrownie]

Here's a nice story about what can happen - and often does - when you require mandatory sentences.

 

Got to love that drug war.

[The Cysko Kid]

Moral of the story...don't sell your scripts to friends. If he'd just given them to his buddy they couldn't have got him for trafficking. He took the money, therefore he is, in fact, a drug dealer.

[heckofajobbrownie]

And you think he deserves 25 years mandatory for that?

 

I think he deserves a fine and probation.

[The Cysko Kid]

And you think he deserves 25 years mandatory for that?

 

I think he deserves a fine and probation.

 

 

No he doesn't deserve 25 years mandatory, but he also didn't give them to his friend out of altruism or he'd have only charged the guy the cost of the scripts. Dude's a drug dealer hoping some fluff piece painting him as a do gooder just "helping his friend" will get him out of the hole he's dug himself into.

[heckofajobbrownie]

What do you think he deserves?

[The Cysko Kid]

What do you think he deserves?

 

What does your standard heroin dealer get? 2-5 years with time off for good behaviour? Whatever you'd give that guy, this guy deserves.

[Erie Dawg]

What does your standard heroin dealer get?

Define "standard".

[The Cysko Kid]

Define "standard".

 

What does a street corner, low level heroin dealer get when caught? Not an importer, not a trafficker, not a smuggler. Just the guy who stands on the corner peddling smack.

[heckofajobbrownie]

My moral of the story is that mandatory drug sentences are insane.

[Erie Dawg]

What does a street corner, low level heroin dealer get when caught? Not an importer, not a trafficker, not a smuggler. Just the guy who stands on the corner peddling smack.

standard seemed like a pretty loose term, but anyway trafficking (the term) would still be used on the low level street corner guy, all the way up to the top. say if you bought a quarter pound of weed for personal use. even though not a huge qty.it could be said to be for resale.

[Erie Dawg]

My moral of the story is that mandatory drug sentences are insane.

I agree.

[The Cysko Kid]

My moral of the story is that mandatory drug sentences are insane.

 

 

so a street corner heroin dealer deserves a fine and probation? This guy is guilty of the same thing. So the rules shouldn't be different because he peddled oxycontin instead of Heroin. 25 years mandatory is crazy, but he doesn't get off with a fine and probation because he had a prescription for it. Sorry that's not how the world works. Drug dealing is drug dealing is drug dealing. Like I said, he sure didn't do it for sympathy. He did it for money and he's in a hole he dug himself into. I have no sympathy for him.

[The Cysko Kid]

standard seemed like a pretty loose term, but anyway trafficking (the term) would still be used on the low level street corner guy, all the way up to the top. say if you bought a quarter pound of weed for personal use. even though not a huge qty.it could be said to be for resale.

 

 

sorry, man. My drug dealer lingo isn't quite up to snuff. I guess it's because I don't deal drugs, but I'd always assumed a trafficker would be a large scale drug dealer. Like the guy who deals to the dealers. It makes sense, what you say though.

[heckofajobbrownie]

so a street corner heroin dealer deserves a fine and probation? This guy is guilty of the same thing. So the rules shouldn't be different because he peddled oxycontin instead of Heroin. 25 years mandatory is crazy, but he doesn't get off with a fine and probation because he had a prescription for it. Sorry that's not how the world works. Drug dealing is drug dealing is drug dealing. Like I said, he sure didn't do it for sympathy. He did it for money and he's in a hole he dug himself into. I have no sympathy for him.

 

I do. Even under the worst reading of what he's done he's still not done anything terribly serious, and certainly nothing worth ruining his life for. But that's what we do in the name of "getting tough on drugs." We ruin lots of lives.

 

And yes, I think a street corner heroin dealer deserves a stiff fine and no jail time for a first offense. If there's no violence involved, and you're not caught selling to minors, it should not land you in jail. You should be fined and put on probation.

[The Cysko Kid]

I do. Even under the worst reading of what he's done he's still not done anything terribly serious, and certainly nothing worth ruining his life for. But that's what we do in the name of "getting tough on drugs." We ruin lots of lives.

 

And yes, I think a street corner heroin dealer deserves a stiff fine and no jail time for a first offense. If there's no violence involved, and you're not caught selling to minors, it should not land you in jail. You should be fined and put on probation.

 

 

I don't know man. I respect your opinion but we're not talking about Pot here. Heroin and Opiates are powerful medicines and we as a society have an interest in keeping them off the streets. They belong with terminal cancer patients and soldiers dying on the battle field, not just to any joe schmoe that tweaks his back. Frankly they're not even that good of a pain reliever and I'd argue that your standard ibuprofen 800 is actually more effective at killing pain that opiates. Opiates make it so you don't care that you're dying.

 

There's only one guy that posts here that I know of that has an honest to god right to prescribe drugs to patients, so I'd be interested to know what Legacy Fan thinks of it.

[heckofajobbrownie]

Oh, I'm not arguing that it's good for people to be using it recreationally, or isn't harmful. Hell, every time I've been prescribed it I don't even get the script filled.

 

I'm just noting that there have been some discussions about mandatory sentencing in here, and how it's necessary to keep judges from being too lenient. But no judge in America would sentence this guy to 25 years in jail for what he did. He wouldn't even get five years. It shows you how fucked up this system is.

 

As for heroin dealers, I'm not for putting non-violent drug offenders in jail. You can make it pay in other ways.

[VaporTrail]

Going after small fry drug dealers is such a waste of money. If no one's getting shot over a turf war, then who's the victim? I have zero pity for anyone who OD's on a serious drug, but that's completely on them, not the dealer.

[heckofajobbrownie]

Drug addiction can be extremely sad, tragic, or in others cases, entirely predictable and full of bad choices and not pitiable at all.

 

Depends on the situation. But I'm surprised to hear you say that you'd have no sympathy for someone who ODed on a serious drug, Vapor.

 

Man, you guys are some heartless motherfuckers in here...

[Erie Dawg]

 

 

I'm just noting that there have been some discussions about mandatory sentencing in here, and how it's necessary to keep judges from being too lenient. But no judge in America would sentence this guy to 25 years in jail for what he did. He wouldn't even get five years. It shows you how fucked up this system is.

 

 

Imagine if the judicial system had a mandatory sentence for lets say drugs since its on topic. We would have to build new jails in nearly every county in the US...Or would we? Would those kind of sentences be enough to clean up crime?

[VaporTrail]

Drug addiction can be extremely sad, tragic, or in others cases, entirely predictable and full of bad choices and not pitiable at all.

 

Depends on the situation. But I'm surprised to hear you say that you'd have no sympathy for someone who ODed on a serious drug, Vapor.

 

Man, you guys are some heartless motherfuckers in here...

 

It happened to one of my former best friend's brothers ~3 months ago. That friend of mine just got out of rehab. I am extremely sympathetic to the family, but christ, get a grip on things before you do enough drugs to end your life. It just seems selfish. It's not like you were depressed and didn't want to continue living, you just overestimated what you could handle and now you're gone. If you're going to do drugs, don't be nonchalant about it.

[The Cysko Kid]

Oh, I'm not arguing that it's good for people to be using it recreationally, or isn't harmful. Hell, every time I've been prescribed it I don't even get the script filled.

 

I'm just noting that there have been some discussions about mandatory sentencing in here, and how it's necessary to keep judges from being too lenient. But no judge in America would sentence this guy to 25 years in jail for what he did. He wouldn't even get five years. It shows you how fucked up this system is.

 

As for heroin dealers, I'm not for putting non-violent drug offenders in jail. You can make it pay in other ways.

 

An end user might be a non violent drug offender but your average heroin dealer is contributing to all kinds of violence. First of all, I'd be willing to bet that many of them are never without their illegal firearm, because as we all know Heroin addiction breeds the sort of monsters that will steal, maim, kill do whatever they have to do to get their next fix. Your average pothead is probably not going to fatally shoot someone on the street for the five dollars that person might be carrying to get a bag of pot. It just doesn't affect you in that way. Nobody is getting dopesick off of pot. Opiates are a very different story. It becomes a physical addiction. DTs. Dopesick. That's why so many heroin users have turned to prostitution and violence to get what they need.

 

So while your 'non violent drug offender' stuff has plenty of merit you have to take into account the drugs that these non violent offenders are mixed up in. Pot, Ecstasy, Acid, these things are not necessarily good for you but many of the offenses concerning them can safely be classified as non violent.

 

Cocaine, Heroin, PCP these are a different story altogether. Many of the offenses concerning these things are plenty violent, sordid and damaging.

 

This is where the war on drugs becomes extremely ambiguous. Some drugs that really don't need war declared on them are lumped in with the drugs that are legitimate problems. You can't just look at the whole and say 'Oh the war on drugs is ridiculous' It's not. It's not without merit. It's just that a bunch of people who don't know the difference between pot and Heroin are the ones directing the war on drugs.

 

I'm an adventerous person. In my time Ive tried every food, every thrill, and yes even every drug I've come across. Im not a user of anything in particular, but I've tried them in the time of my life when trying such things was not as damaging to my family life and career as they are now. I feel justified in telling you that Opiates are much more dangerous and deserve to be taken much more seriously than Pot and other drugs that are unfairly lumped into the 'war on drugs'. So yes, if I were in the position to do so, I'd throw the book at the heroin dealers. Even if they are not actively causing violence the substance that they peddle is associated on many levels with violence and moral and societal decay.

[heckofajobbrownie]

I would agree with you and would treat different drugs differently according to their effects and negative consequences, but the main reason there's so much violence associated with drug use is because we've made it illegal to obtain and created a black market for them.

 

There are few policy failures, if any, that could equal the War on Drugs. I'd happily take the small increase in drug use that would come from legalization in return for the financial and societal benefits that would come from treating drug violations in a completely different way. People should get fines, court ordered treatment, and the like. Jail should be reserved for people who endanger or injure others, or who sell to minors.

 

Stories like this one, where a guy who has done very little to deserve any jail time at all instead gets a mandatory 25 years ...it's insane. It's enraging. That's his life. It's also his daughter's life, as she'll now have no father. This is repeated hundreds of thousands of times over every year. It's mindless and counterproductive, and we do it to ourselves. We put so many people in the system for no good reason, and in doing so sentence many of them to a lifetime in the underclass.

[The Cysko Kid]

I would agree with you and would treat different drugs differently according to their effects and negative consequences, but the main reason there's so much violence associated with drug use is because we've made it illegal to obtain and created a black market for them.

 

There are few policy failures, if any, that could equal the War on Drugs. I'd happily take the small increase in drug use that would come from legalization in return for the financial and societal benefits that would come from treating drug violations in a completely different way. People should get fines, court ordered treatment, and the like. Jail should be reserved for people who endanger or injure others, or who sell to minors.

 

Stories like this one, where a guy who has done very little to deserve any jail time at all instead gets a mandatory 25 years ...it's insane. It's enraging. That's his life. It's also his daughter's life, as she'll now have no father. This is repeated hundreds of thousands of times over every year. It's mindless and counterproductive, and we do it to ourselves. We put so many people in the system for no good reason, and in doing so sentence many of them to a lifetime in the underclass.

 

 

The Majority of drug violence has to do with the trafficking of drugs and it is true that this is largely because they are illegal, and thus the extremely lucrative business of providing these highly sought after illegal substances is cut-throat. You can see evidence of this in the sadistic cess-pit that is Mexico. Bestgore . com will show you all you need to know about that.

 

I still argue that Heroin and Opiates are one drug that also breeds violence that has nothing to do with the trafficking of the drug, and everything to do with the use of it simply because an addicts need to fix is stronger than anything else in that person's life and they will often literally do anything to get that fix. If violence will get them the money required to get their gear than violence is what they will employ. If prostitution will get them that money than they will prostitute. I've known a number of Heroin addicts and most of them are dead now, but before they died they sank to unfathomable depths.

 

But more on topic, you are right. 25 years of mandatory jail is unreasonable given the fact that this guy isn't selling heroin for a living. He probably is rather ignorant of the actual problem of opiate addiction and violence and thus a little lenience could have been shown. I'd still give him jail time but 25 years? I think not. A single year would more than get the point across.

[calfoxwc]

I believe the mandatory sentencing was primarily born out of the liberal judges' coddling of drug crimes, etc.

 

It's wrong. True justice requires punishment due to the circumstances, nature of the crime, and intent.

 

It's kinda like "zero tolerance" of guns in school, with a kid who wears his army tshirt with soldiers pictured on it,

 

or brings a toy soldier to school.

 

Mandatory crap isn't designed to fit the crime - it's more designed to effect a culture war of sorts. Innocent people can be caught in the middle.

[The Cysko Kid]

I believe the mandatory sentencing was primarily born out of the liberal judges' coddling of drug crimes, etc.

 

It's wrong. True justice requires punishment due to the circumstances, nature of the crime, and intent.

 

It's kinda like "zero tolerance" of guns in school, with a kid who wears his army tshirt with soldiers pictured on it,

 

or brings a toy soldier to school.

 

Mandatory crap isn't designed to fit the crime - it's more designed to effect a culture war of sorts. Innocent people can be caught in the middle.

 

Thus guy isn't innocent. He recieved $1800 dollars for selling drugs. He's a drug dealer

[Westside Steve]

A few thoughts:

First the libertarian in me thinks the drug laws are stupid in the first place.

 

The authoritarian says if you can't do the time, don't do the crime.

 

The cynic says that it makes sense the trial lawyers hate mandatory sentences because a big payoff for them can usually get a criminal of the hook.

Also when you replace actual punishment with big fine the legal system becomes a cash cow, which it is already.

 

And my combative side shakes his head and wonders were you were when the thousands of innocent people, women and children are raped beaten robbed and murdered by animals who have been let go by some bleeding heart asshole judge.

WSS

[DieHardBrownsFan]

I do. Even under the worst reading of what he's done he's still not done anything terribly serious, and certainly nothing worth ruining his life for. But that's what we do in the name of "getting tough on drugs." We ruin lots of lives.

 

And yes, I think a street corner heroin dealer deserves a stiff fine and no jail time for a first offense. If there's no violence involved, and you're not caught selling to minors, it should not land you in jail. You should be fined and put on probation.

 

I'm pretty sure that already happens. The prisons are already overcrowded as are the jails. In Cleveland and I'm sure LA the police won't even put you in jail or enforce a misdemeanor warrant. Only felonies. No room or they have to use a suburban jail and pay for it.

[Westside Steve]

Just as an aside, Heck don't you realize you are unfairly targeting the poor with fines?

 

Victimizing the members of society who are least able to afford it!

 

Oh the humanity!

 

WSS

[heckofajobbrownie]

Man, you are a garden variety Republican crank.

[Westside Steve]

Man, you are a garden variety Republican crank.

And yet completely and absolutely correct.

Ironic aint it?

WSS