Let's Lay to Rest the Myth that the Browns are...

[Shep]

... so much less talented than the Bengals. Didn't we beat them last year, too? You can't just keep saying something when it doesn't play out on the football field. Did it look like Ginger was better than Brian Hoyer? Did it look like either of their TEs were better than Cameron? Did it look like A.J. was just miles beyond Josh Gordon?

 

Did their front 7 look as good as our front 7? Do they have a corner as good as Joe Haden? A left tackle as good as Joe Thomas? Any pass rusher as good as Mingo? It's a passing league and I think we're better at QB, left tackle, pass rusher, TE, and #1 corner. So, uh...

 

The Bengals are undeniably strong at interior DL... but we're better. We just are, statistically and to the eyeball test. No DL is playing better than Taylor, Rubin, and Bryant. Taylor looks like a first-team All Pro to me. He's special. Bryant is an ideal 5-tech. And Rubin is Rubin, year after year one of the best all around DL in the NFL.

 

Buster Skrine is gradually sanding off his edges and if you blink you might miss the moment when he's officially a middle-of-the-league 2nd corner on his way to being more than that. DQJ is top 10 ILB in the NFL. Robertson, Kruger, Ward, and Gipson (great game) are all excellent football players. Our center is easily top 10.

 

Yes, we'll upgrade at RB and WR. Yes, we'll bring in a high level right-side blocker. Yes, we'll bring in a corner with size. We'll draft a quarterback somewhere... up to Hoyer how high. It's becoming a VERY deep group (welcome to the party, Carr and Morris).

 

This is a pretty damn good football team sitting on about 30 mill and 10 draft picks including 2 firsts... one acquired for a guy who can't seem to get more than 3 yards a carry under any situation in any uniform. Again... that trade, Mingo, and Hoyer are making Lombardi a candidate for Executive of the Year. I am not kidding.

 

 

 

 

[Shep]

By the way, Skrine leads the team with 7 PDs and is second with 19 solo tackles (DQJ, of course, has 22). Also has a pick. He's a keeper. I'd love to get a bigger #2 and move him into the slot but he might make it impossible to bench him pretty soon.

[Shep]

Browns are #1 in the NFL in DYPC (2.9) and #9 in DPR (73.5). #6 in overall defense.

 

Hoyer now has a PR of 83.2, exactly tied with Dalton. One's on an upward trend, the other not so much.

[Alkid3]

Browns are on the up and up. I didn't think once the Bengals would beat us. I don't think they will this year. And I hope Hoyer is the real deal. I don't want to go qb first in the draft.

[cuwoohio]

Browns are on the up and up. I didn't think once the Bengals would beat us. I don't think they will this year. And I hope Hoyer is the real deal. I don't want to go qb first in the draft.

 

That would be the perfect scenario for the Browns. They could fill holes in most of the positions they lack in now if they don't have to use picks to trade up to get

the QB they may want. I watched the replay of the Bungles game today, and he looks like he's in charge on the field. Can't read the coaches and front office's minds

but I do hope they would be flexible if Hoyer continues to impress. He is one of their guys after all.

[The Gipper]

... so much less talented than the Bengals. Didn't we beat them last year, too? You can't just keep saying something when it doesn't play out on the football field. Did it look like Ginger was better than Brian Hoyer? Did it look like either of their TEs were better than Cameron? Did it look like A.J. was just miles beyond Josh Gordon?

 

Did their front 7 look as good as our front 7? Do they have a corner as good as Joe Haden? A left tackle as good as Joe Thomas? Any pass rusher as good as Mingo? It's a passing league and I think we're better at QB, left tackle, pass rusher, TE, and #1 corner. So, uh...

 

The Bengals are undeniably strong at interior DL... but we're better. We just are, statistically and to the eyeball test. No DL is playing better than Taylor, Rubin, and Bryant. Taylor looks like a first-team All Pro to me. He's special. Bryant is an ideal 5-tech. And Rubin is Rubin, year after year one of the best all around DL in the NFL.

 

Buster Skrine is gradually sanding off his edges and if you blink you might miss the moment when he's officially a middle-of-the-league 2nd corner on his way to being more than that. DQJ is top 10 ILB in the NFL. Robertson, Kruger, Ward, and Gipson (great game) are all excellent football players. Our center is easily top 10.

 

Yes, we'll upgrade at RB and WR. Yes, we'll bring in a high level right-side blocker. Yes, we'll bring in a corner with size. We'll draft a quarterback somewhere... up to Hoyer how high. It's becoming a VERY deep group (welcome to the party, Carr and Morris).

 

This is a pretty damn good football team sitting on about 30 mill and 10 draft picks including 2 firsts... one acquired for a guy who can't seem to get more than 3 yards a carry under any situation in any uniform. Again... that trade, Mingo, and Hoyer are making Lombardi a candidate for Executive of the Year. I am not kidding.

 

 

 

 

Well, there is that "On paper" issue:

On paper:

Andy Dalton is better than Hoyer

AJ Green is one of the best WRs in the business

Gresham and Eifert are better combined than JC and whoever else also plays TE for the Browns

Their RBs Green-Ellis and Bernardi are better than whatever we have.

Their OL is about on par with our OL

Their DL seems better or at least on par with our DL

The LB corps seems better than our LB corps.

The DB corps seems better or on par with our DB corps.

 

So given that...on paper...they seem to have the advantage or at least equality with the Browns at every position, yes, they should have easily handled the Browns.

But they didn't....because why?

They really ARE NOT better as you imply?

Or because despite having the apparent advantages the Browns match up better? Or play more inspired?

 

To what do you attribute it?

[Hunt Daddy]

By the way, Skrine leads the team with 7 PDs and is second with 19 solo tackles (DQJ, of course, has 22). Also has a pick. He's a keeper. I'd love to get a bigger #2 and move him into the slot but he might make it impossible to bench him pretty soon.

Also the pass interference on him didn't look like a problem. The ball was under thrown and Skrine just happened to bump into the receiver as he stopped. Skrine has looked a lot better.

[slowburn]

Stats support Browns defensive improvement thru games 4 (yards allowed by defense)

 

passing yards rushing yards average total/game

 

2012 1144 469 403

2013 850 316 291

[Tim Couch Pulls Out]

Stats support Browns defensive improvement thru games 4

 

passing yards rushing yards average total/game

 

2012 1144 469 403

2013 850 316 291

I don't know how to read this.

[VaporTrail]

I don't know how to read this.

 

They're yards allowed by the defense.

[Tim Couch Pulls Out]

Jury is still out on a lot of these guys.

 

Mingo has played great so far. Let's revisit this at the end of the season before we start ranking him. He's only got three games to his name.

 

Cameron has also been outstanding. But let's not forget that we had two years of no production before this and TE's go in and out of popularity faster than plaid shorts. Kyle Rudolph was a playmaker two years ago.

 

Skrine had a great game against Cincy. That's how you expect a #2 to play. His PI call was bogus. But he's also had a year of garbage, so let's wait until the end of the year on him as well.

 

Gordon is becoming a great WR. If he keeps this up he could easily be a top 5 receiving threat. If he keeps this up, though.

 

Mack is Mack. Thomas is Thomas. DQJ is DQJ. Haden is Haden. All top 10 at their position, Haden and Thomas in the top 5.

 

We have a solid corps but we still have holes and we still have a big learning curve. Hoyer had been an unexpected surprise and I really hope he continues playing as well as he has.

[DieHardBrownsFan]

Jury is still out on a lot of these guys.

 

Mingo has played great so far. Let's revisit this at the end of the season before we start ranking him. He's only got three games to his name.

 

Cameron has also been outstanding. But let's not forget that we had two years of no production before this and TE's go in and out of popularity faster than plaid shorts. Kyle Rudolph was a playmaker two years ago.

 

Skrine had a great game against Cincy. That's how you expect a #2 to play. His PI call was bogus. But he's also had a year of garbage, so let's wait until the end of the year on him as well.

 

Gordon is becoming a great WR. If he keeps this up he could easily be a top 5 receiving threat. If he keeps this up, though.

 

Mack is Mack. Thomas is Thomas. DQJ is DQJ. Haden is Haden. All top 10 at their position, Haden and Thomas in the top 5.

 

We have a solid corps but we still have holes and we still have a big learning curve. Hoyer had been an unexpected surprise and I really hope he continues playing as well as he has.

I agree. But you have to understand, this is Cleveland and we are starved for a winner.

[slowburn]

Offensive line dominated on the drive resulting in the Ogbo TD. McGaheheehee showed his still has a some left in the tank. Lewis proved in 07 and 08 that a thirty yo running back can compete although I would be feeling a lot better about McGahee with a Browns training camp under his belt. Big question mark on Rainey. I don't know if the could could physically handle 15-20 runs/game. He isn't at Western Kentucky anymore.

 

I would like to see the Browns make a deal on a RB before trade deadline next month. Ginger might be worth something, after all.

[Shep]

My call? There isn't really a talent gap between the Bengals and Browns. I didn't believe it, personally... and when the theory ("on paper") was put to the test, your eyeballs could tell you that the Bengals simply were NOT more talented than the Browns.

 

Yes, the matchups work: The Bengals have a clear-cut #1 WR and the Browns have a clear-cut #1 CB... as opposed to the Browns playing a team that throws to everybody, like the Packers. The Browns have the league's best LT and a quarterback who gets the ball out fast, neutralizing two excellent pass rush teams in a row. The Browns have underrated cover safeties and 'backers like Gipson and Robertson to their 12 formations (two TEs) weren't really effective.

 

And if you read the above, "great gameplan" flows right out of it. The Browns were able to get heat mostly rushing 4, BTW, which gave us numbers in the defensive backfield. Ginger's numbers were dreadful.

 

Look, everything is always "as of now," and subject to change... but I came into the season thinking the Browns had quite a few potential Pro Bowl types (is there a Pro Bowl?): Kruger, Mingo, DQJ, Taylor, Rubin, Bryant, Haden and Ward on defense; Thomas, Mack, Cameron, and Gordon on offense. Now I really like Hoyer and I've always thought PFF had it right on Greco: He's good.

 

It's not a perfect team. We aren't the Broncos or Seahawks. But I think it's a good football team that could win 9 games. I think we'll be 3-2 after Thursday night. Then, those resources for the offseason can't be matched.

[Tim Couch Pulls Out]

My call? There isn't really a talent gap between the Bengals and Browns. I didn't believe it, personally... and when the theory ("on paper") was put to the test, your eyeballs could tell you that the Bengals simply were NOT more talented than the Browns.

 

Yes, the matchups work: The Bengals have a clear-cut #1 WR and the Browns have a clear-cut #1 CB... as opposed to the Browns playing a team that throws to everybody, like the Packers. The Browns have the league's best LT and a quarterback who gets the ball out fast, neutralizing two excellent pass rush teams in a row. The Browns have underrated cover safeties and 'backers like Gipson and Robertson to their 12 formations (two TEs) weren't really effective.

 

And if you read the above, "great gameplan" flows right out of it. The Browns were able to get heat mostly rushing 4, BTW, which gave us numbers in the defensive backfield. Ginger's numbers were dreadful.

 

Look, everything is always "as of now," and subject to change... but I came into the season thinking the Browns had quite a few potential Pro Bowl types (is there a Pro Bowl?): Kruger, Mingo, DQJ, Taylor, Rubin, Bryant, Haden and Ward on defense; Thomas, Mack, Cameron, and Gordon on offense. Now I really like Hoyer and I've always thought PFF had it right on Greco: He's good.

 

It's not a perfect team. We aren't the Broncos or Seahawks. But I think it's a good football team that could win 9 games. I think we'll be 3-2 after Thursday night. Then, those resources for the offseason can't be matched.

Half of your list won't get Pro Bowl nods.

 

Realistically, it's more like Haden, Rubin, (maybe) Bryant and possibly Mingo on defense. On offense, it's Thomas, Cameron and possibly Gordon. Mack is a toss up, but there's still some very good veteran centers that will get it over him based on name alone.

 

I don't see a talent gap between us and any team in the NFL, excluding the Broncos and maybe the 49ers. We have the talent to hang with anybody and, where we don't have the talent, the play calling can make up for it.

 

But we need to temper our expectations a bit. Hoyer is going to have a bad game. Yes, it will happen. And then the "Bench Hoyer, Bridgewater 2014" threads will start. Gordon will have a bad game and we'll see "Trade Gordon while he has value". Cameron will drop a TD pass and we'll get "Antonio Gates available?"

 

We're so high to glorify guys when they do well and quick to dismiss them when they don't.

 

All in all, we have a young and talented team. Some are going to fizzle out. Others will be perennial Pro Bowlers.

[flyingfooldoug]

Regardless of who has what talent on paper, I saw a team that was out coached. And that was especially evident on the defensive side of it. We had an answer for everything Lewis could think of(not saying much) and able to keep them guessing all day

[The Gipper]

Regardless of who has what talent on paper, I saw a team that was out coached. And that was especially evident on the defensive side of it. We had an answer for everything Lewis could think of(not saying much) and able to keep them guessing all day

Or, would you say that Ray Horton outcoached Jay Gruden?

[Bob806]

Or, would you say that Ray Horton outcoached Jay Gruden?

Most likely, his schemes have made us vastly improved.

 

Do you guys think Horton had anything to do with Hoyer getting the nod over Campbell? He saw him in AZ, maybe he got into Chud & Norv's ear.

[flyingfooldoug]

Or, would you say that Ray Horton outcoached Jay Gruden?

I would say that plus Chud out coached Marv. These things do tend to start at the top.

[slowburn]

We have the talent to hang with anybody and, where we don't have the talent, the play calling can make up for it.

 

 

 

NE went into Atl last night with a pair of third stringers at WR (Thomkins, Edelman). Not a big deal when you factor in a bellichik and a Brady. Bellichik continues to to get the best out of his players and Brady has a knack of getting his receivers to believe in themselves. this is another good example of coaching(Playcalling) and (QB's) being one of the major gaps between average teams and perennial winners. I am not sold on Turner by a long shot. His history with Rivers was not all that great and Rivers has actually improved since Turners departure from San Diego. The play calling in the 4th qtr yesterday was masterful. I have a hunch Chud had a lot of input. Hoyer showed poise. I see a lot of potential if this relationship continues to develop.

[jcam222]

Ill be the hometown huckleberry. Add Luavo and Pinkston back and we are the best football team in the division IF Hoyer keeps playing at this level. If stats on paper translated into wins and losses I'd be a millionaire thanks to Vegas. This team is all of a sudden showing the intangible "IT' factor.

[flyingfooldoug]

Ill be the hometown huckleberry. Add Luavo and Pinkston back and we are the best football team in the division IF Hoyer keeps playing at this level. If stats on paper translated into wins and losses I'd be a millionaire thanks to Vegas. This team is all of a sudden showing the intangible "IT' factor.

Gawd but I hope you are right!

[Tim Couch Pulls Out]

 

NE went into Atl last night with a pair of third stringers at WR (Thomkins, Edelman). Not a big deal when you factor in a bellichik and a Brady. Bellichik continues to to get the best out of his players and Brady has a knack of getting his receivers to believe in themselves. this is another good example of coaching(Playcalling) and (QB's) being one of the major gaps between average teams and perennial winners. I am not sold on Turner by a long shot. His history with Rivers was not all that great and Rivers has actually improved since Turners departure from San Diego. The play calling in the 4th qtr yesterday was masterful. I have a hunch Chud had a lot of input. Hoyer showed poise. I see a lot of potential if this relationship continues to develop.

Turner is a very successful coordinator. When he's spread thin as HC, he's awful.

 

I think he's great where he is, in the booth. He has a great football mind; scheming, spotting weaknesses, playcalling- he's great at all of it.

 

When he's in charge of everything...not so much.

 

I think the duo of Chud and Turner is as great as any in the league. Chud is the ballsy prodigal son returned who's brought back his NFL mentor to be his right hand man.

 

I've never believed Rivers to be an upper echelon QB. He's a cocky, gunslinging risk taker like Favre but without the horseshoe lodged up his ass.

[Tour2ma]

Sorry, but I think we sneaked up on them.

 

Our D is faster they they were expecting...

They were not prepared for Hoyer's poise...

... and, yes, we had a great game plan.

 

Their fans came into our Forum over confidant... I think their team showed up over confident as well. The look on Dalton's face at game's end screamed befudlement... as pretty much did his play. Maybe it's a redhead thang..

[Shep]

Should have won by more. If our kicker is healthy, it's 23-6, which is more what the stats suggest. Browns seemed in control from the beginning. I never believed they would lose. Just looked like the better team.

 

On the flip side, when all the Bengals love started, I immediately thought it was way over baked. They don't have a top 10 quarterback to that right there puts you in the second tier and out of Super Bowl talk. At least for me.

 

I don't see them as some kind of juggernaut at all.

[flyingfooldoug]

It sure would be sweet to give blowitmore a real run at the AFCN title. They are defending AFCN and SB champs and I want it to be the Browns that dethrones that flock. Gotta beat the champ to be the champ.

[Legacy Fan]

Also the pass interference on him didn't look like a problem. The ball was under thrown and Skrine just happened to bump into the receiver as he stopped. Skrine has looked a lot better.

meh.. Skrine has ball tracking problems (he's the DB version of MoMass) The PI could have been avoided had he just made a play on the ball instead of tripping over the WR.

 

He's night & day better than last season though.

[Shep]

First... I think Skrine is vastly improved and still improving. I think he's a player.

 

Second, on NFLN about an hour ago, Mike Silver was saying Andy Dalton just isn't good enough to take the Bengals all the way. Said even more troubling are the whispers that he isn't practicing well, either.

 

I've said that from day one: He's okay. And that ain't okay.

[nickers]

Turner is a very successful coordinator. When he's spread thin as HC, he's awful.

 

I think he's great where he is, in the booth. He has a great football mind; scheming, spotting weaknesses, playcalling- he's great at all of it.

 

When he's in charge of everything...not so much.

 

I think the duo of Chud and Turner is as great as any in the league. Chud is the ballsy prodigal son returned who's brought back his NFL mentor to be his right hand man.

 

I've never believed Rivers to be an upper echelon QB. He's a cocky, gunslinging risk taker like Favre but without the horseshoe lodged up his ass.

 

Rivers has a ton of talent and is a smart kid...All he needs is to have his emotions kept in check and you can win with him..yet..I have reservations about his mental toughness at times...otherwise...he's a gifted QB...And Ive seen a whole slew of them in My 40+ years of watching the game.

[The Gipper]

Turner is a very successful coordinator. When he's spread thin as HC, he's awful.

 

I think he's great where he is, in the booth. He has a great football mind; scheming, spotting weaknesses, playcalling- he's great at all of it.

 

When he's in charge of everything...not so much.

 

I think the duo of Chud and Turner is as great as any in the league. Chud is the ballsy prodigal son returned who's brought back his NFL mentor to be his right hand man.

 

I've never believed Rivers to be an upper echelon QB. He's a cocky, gunslinging risk taker like Favre but without the horseshoe lodged up his ass.

Well, it is a bit too early to be singing those praises. We have coaches in this division that have won Super Bowls, so lets not get ahead of ourselves.

And this year Phillip Rivers is playing like gangbusters. He and Peyton and Brees are the top 3 QBs, statistically, in the league so far this year.

I hope you are right....I just hate that you suffer from premature ejaculation.