thenew23 Posted February 6, 2014 Report Share Posted February 6, 2014 Since every thread here is about whether or not to draft a QB, and which one to draft, I thought I'd start a series of position reviews/pre-views looking at next year. And, for obvious reasons, I decided NOT to start with the QB. These are my thoughts... 2013 Starters: Joe Thomas LT (Pro Bowl), John Greco LG, Alex Mack C (Pro Bowl / UFA), Shawn Lauvao RG (UFA), Mitchell Schwartz RT Other linemen: Oneil Cousins G/T (UFA), Jason Pinkston (G), Garett Gilkey (G), Reid Fragel (T), Martin Wallace (T), Chris Faulk (T) In 2013, the line wasn't great but the quarterbacking and lack of talent at running back were even worse. Once Lauvao came back, they provded enough time for a QB to get rid of the ball, and opened up holes big enough for a RB to get through. The problem was they had a QB who didn't get rid of the ball, and RBs who were too old, slow, blind, scared, or something to make any plays. Also, Norv Turner stubbornly continued to run the ball in the 1 and 2 gaps, despite the lack of success from those runs. Free Agency: Obviously Alex Mack being a UFA is a big concern right now, but is it really? I would wager the Browns gave a contract extension to John Greco last year because they plan to move him to C upon the inevitable Alex Mack departure. I don't see the Browns offering anywhere near the money Mack will command considering Haden, Taylor, and Cameron being FAs next year. I think the Browns will let him take his talents elsewhere without too much of a fight. Greco was 2nd on the depth chart at C, and seems to have what is necessary to play that position. Is it a downgrade? Yes, in my opinion but Mack leaving will not cripple the line as much as we might fear. Also departing will be everybody's 2 favorite Browns in Shawn Lauvao and Oneil Cousins... ohh darn. 2014 So, now wer're looking at a starting lineup of: LT-Thomas, LG-?, C-Greco, RG-?, and RT-Schwartz I like the three slotted to be in here, but I don't like question marks on my offensive line. Pinkston has starter ability at G, and Gilkey may improve from season 1 to 2, but there needs to be something else. If I'm Cleveland, I'm looking at free agency for a definite starter, and probably drafting one in the middle of the draft as well. FAs available: My favorite - Jon Asamoah from KC. Drafted by Farmer in 2010 in the 3rd round, he seems to be starter quality and would come with a chip on his shoulder after being benched last year for Geoff Schwartz. Others are John Jerry from MIA, Zane Beadles from DEN, Chad Rinehart from SD, or the possibility of re-signing Shawn Lauvao. Playcalling in the run game should improve with Shanahan calling the plays; however, whether or not the Browns are able to keep Mack, we will certainly still be needing some guards to compete. There are many in the draft available in the middle rounds. Here is a decent list http://walterfootball.com/draft2014OG.php . Other thoughts on the O-line?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gipper Posted February 6, 2014 Report Share Posted February 6, 2014 Thought?: Keep Mack, draft an OG high. Maybe even at 26 if David Yankey is there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Couch Pulls Out Posted February 6, 2014 Report Share Posted February 6, 2014 Resign Mack, drop Taylor after next year. A Pro Bowl center is much more valuable than a decent DT, especially if Taylor wants big money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CLEinCHI Posted February 6, 2014 Report Share Posted February 6, 2014 don't break the bank for Mack, Greco can slide over - draft an OG to pair with Pinkston on the line or an OT and move Schwartz over to RG. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tour2ma Posted February 7, 2014 Report Share Posted February 7, 2014 Nice OP, 23... Can't get into draft and FA possibilities yet, but have a couple thoughts on our current cast of characters... 2013 Starters: Joe Thomas LT (Pro Bowl), John Greco LG, Alex Mack C (Pro Bowl / UFA), Shawn Lauvao RG (UFA), Mitchell Schwartz RT Other linemen: Oneil Cousins G/T (UFA), Jason Pinkston (G), Garett Gilkey (G), Reid Fragel (T), Martin Wallace (T), Chris Faulk (T) 2014 So, now wer're looking at a starting lineup of: LT-Thomas, LG-?, C-Greco, RG-?, and RT-Schwartz I like the three slotted to be in here, but I don't like question marks on my offensive line. Pinkston has starter ability at G, and Gilkey may improve from season 1 to 2, but there needs to be something else. If I'm Cleveland, I'm looking at free agency for a definite starter, and probably drafting one in the middle of the draft as well. Other thoughts on the O-line?? I think scheme is important. I hope Kyle S. does not try to force feed Zone Blocking to the existing crew. I thought 2013 showed that other than JT and Mack our starters are not quick enough to make that work. And nothing opitimizes "not quick" like Michael Schwartz. He cannot handle a speed rush... period. I have hopes for Gilkey. Who knows what we have in Faulk. I do not see, as some have suggested, Schwartz faring better at OG. I do not understand why Wallace did not get a shot at RT. He impressed me last pre-season in relief of JT at LT... especially his footwork in pass protection. Compared to Schwartz, Wallace looked like he was made for a zone scheme. Resign Mack, drop Taylor after next year.A Pro Bowl center is much more valuable than a decent DT, especially if Taylor wants big money. Agree on Mack... And with apologies to 23 for the potential derail... On Taylor... if attempts to extend him at a reasonable price fail, then why not trade him now? Get value for him now? Especially if we are heading back in the direction of a 4-3 (which IMO we need to due to 3-4 LB deficiencies). There have to be a couple NFC teams running the 3-4 that would salivate at the thought of putting Phil in the middle of their line. I love Big Phil as a NT, but I feel he's wasted as a DT... in part because he is such a great, space-eating, lateral-pursuing NT, but also because I think he falls a bit short in the DT role which includes an added measure of pass pressure generation. I know he had 4 sacks his rookie season, but only had 1 in his 8-game second-season at DT. Call me crazy, but I think Rubin, Wynn and even Hughes are more complete DTs... but none, with the possible exception of Hughes, are anywhere near Phil as a NT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thenew23 Posted February 7, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 7, 2014 Don't want to derail to d-line b/c theye're next...so, anyway... Not too many o-line experts/self-proclaimed experts on the board I see... Not too many fans of o-linemen on the board I see... hmmm... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thenew23 Posted February 7, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 7, 2014 I'll just say... profootballfocus.com, who keeps advanced statistics on a play-by-play basis on every NFL player, ranked the Browns O-line 5th best in the NFL last season. Joe Thomas, despite some saying he struggled, ranked #1 at OT, while Mack ranked in the top 8 at C. Greco and Schwartz finished with positive grades (which is good). The weak spot, not surprisingly, was RG whether it was Cousins, grading as one of the worst in the NFL, or Lauvao, who scored in the negative numbers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Couch Pulls Out Posted February 7, 2014 Report Share Posted February 7, 2014 Don't want to derail to d-line b/c theye're next...so, anyway... Not too many o-line experts/self-proclaimed experts on the board I see... Not too many fans of o-linemen on the board I see... hmmm... I'm a fan of OL. You just don't need to have five first rounders to have a good OL. I tend to use football outsiders rankings on offensive linemen more often when I'm trying to rank an entire squad rather then an individual lineman. Pro Football Focus ranks each player individually and then uses an aggregate of the five scores to determine the success of the line which isn't a fair representation, as combo blocks, double teams, and delayed blitz pickups can skew those stats. Football Outsiders ranks the line on criteria such as stuffed runs, power runs, second level yardage and open field yardage, which I feel is a much better representation of the line as a whole. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gipper Posted February 7, 2014 Report Share Posted February 7, 2014 I'm a fan of OL. You just don't need to have five first rounders to have a good OL. I tend to use football outsiders rankings on offensive linemen more often when I'm trying to rank an entire squad rather then an individual lineman. Pro Football Focus ranks each player individually and then uses an aggregate of the five scores to determine the success of the line which isn't a fair representation, as combo blocks, double teams, and delayed blitz pickups can skew those stats. Football Outsiders ranks the line on criteria such as stuffed runs, power runs, second level yardage and open field yardage, which I feel is a much better representation of the line as a whole. How does the Browns OL grade out? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zombo Posted February 7, 2014 Report Share Posted February 7, 2014 I'll just say... profootballfocus.com, who keeps advanced statistics on a play-by-play basis on every NFL player, ranked the Browns O-line 5th best in the NFL last season. Joe Thomas, despite some saying he struggled, ranked #1 at OT, while Mack ranked in the top 8 at C. Greco and Schwartz finished with positive grades (which is good). The weak spot, not surprisingly, was RG whether it was Cousins, grading as one of the worst in the NFL, or Lauvao, who scored in the negative numbers. That sounds about right from what i watched. Zombo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thenew23 Posted February 7, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 7, 2014 You just don't need to have five first rounders to have a good OL. Couldn't agree more... How does the Browns OL grade out? Not as good on football outsiders. 18th in run blocking, and 17th in pass protection; however, we ranked #1 in runs off the Left Tackle, but we only ran that direction 11% of our carries... playcalling problem? 67% of our runs went up the 1 or 2 gap where we only averaged 3.79 yds/carry, ranked 22nd Big problem was our running backs. We were ranked 31st in open field yards (>10 yds) and 28th in second level yards (5-10 yds), yet we were 9th in power running (<3 yds in "to go" or "and goal" situations). The line obviously got push, but we didn't have a back that could get to the next level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Osiris Posted February 7, 2014 Report Share Posted February 7, 2014 Don't want to derail to d-line b/c theye're next...so, anyway... Not too many o-line experts/self-proclaimed experts on the board I see... Not too many fans of o-linemen on the board I see... hmmm... Played o-line 4 years in HS, I just don't feel like studying film. I did read an article somewhere that suggested that Shaun Lauvao may be well-suited to Shanahan's zone-blocking scheme. I don't really remember seeing any of our o-line drive anyone off the line so I'm perfectly happy to see how they do in a zone-blocking scheme. It is a tailored for pass-protection and in some sense the skills you learn for pass protection are more transferable to zone-blocking than they are to run-blocking. Technique and lateral movement are more important in both pass and zone-blocking whereas run-blocking is about hitting the d-lineman low and hard to drive him off the line of scrimmage. Our offensive line is better than they get credit for, and bad running backs and statue QBs who act like deer-caught-in-headlights just make them look worse. Based on how many times each of the 3 QBs were sacked in the games they started, here is how a full season behind just that QB would've turned out: Campbell sacked 16 times over 317 passing attempts= sacked 1 in 19.8 pass attempts. Over full season, he'd have been sacked 34 times (680/19.8). Hoyer sacked 6 times over 96 passing attempts = sacked 1 in 11.5 pass attempts. The sample size is small, so I don't believe this to be true, but the math says he'd have been sacked 59 times (680/11.5). Weeden sacked 27 times over 267 passing attempts = sacked 1 in 9.8 pass attempts, Over full season, he'd have been sacked 69 times (680/9.8)! In the actual season, the Browns gave up 49 sacks, mostly thanks to Weedtard. This places them 30th of all NFL teams in sacks allowed during the season, but based on Campbell's sack rate, if he started all season they would've finished 7th, and obviously last if Weedtard had started the whole season, they'd have been 32nd. What is really surprising to me is the Browns rushed 4.0 yards per carry, 21st in the league, yet I'd have expected it to be worse. So honestly, I think all this shows that our o-line is better than we give them credit for. I'd still like to see a guard signed in FA and another OL drafted, within the first 3 rounds, but if you put in a competent QB and RB, I bet you our OL ranks in the top 10 in pass blocking and top half of the league in run blocking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tour2ma Posted February 7, 2014 Report Share Posted February 7, 2014 Don't want to derail to d-line b/c theye're next...so, anyway... Not too many o-line experts/self-proclaimed experts on the board I see... Not too many fans of o-linemen on the board I see... hmmm... Love me my O-line... D-line, too, but happy to save it for later... I'll just say... profootballfocus.com, who keeps advanced statistics on a play-by-play basis on every NFL player, ranked the Browns O-line 5th best in the NFL last season. Joe Thomas, despite some saying he struggled, ranked #1 at OT, while Mack ranked in the top 8 at C. Greco and Schwartz finished with positive grades (which is good). The weak spot, not surprisingly, was RG whether it was Cousins, grading as one of the worst in the NFL, or Lauvao, who scored in the negative numbers. Does Focus break out individual's grades for run and pass? You just don't need to have five first rounders to have a good OL. True, but you absolutely cannot have any glaring weaknesses in your 5. Not as good on football outsiders. 18th in run blocking, and 17th in pass protection; however, we ranked #1 in runs off the Left Tackle, but we only ran that direction 11% of our carries... playcalling problem? 67% of our runs went up the 1 or 2 gap where we only averaged 3.79 yds/carry, ranked 22nd Big problem was our running backs. We were ranked 31st in open field yards (>10 yds) and 28th in second level yards (5-10 yds), yet we were 9th in power running (<3 yds in "to go" or "and goal" situations). The line obviously got push, but we didn't have a back that could get to the next level. 18th and 17th ranked feel a lot more "right" than Focus' 5th place. What was the average YPC off left-tackle? Not sure I agree with your RB conclusion mostly cause push does not necessarily equate with opening holes. Have to chew on that a bit... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tour2ma Posted February 7, 2014 Report Share Posted February 7, 2014 Played o-line 4 years in HS, I just don't feel like studying film. I did read an article somewhere that suggested that Shaun Lauvao may be well-suited to Shanahan's zone-blocking scheme. I don't really remember seeing any of our o-line drive anyone off the line so I'm perfectly happy to see how they do in a zone-blocking scheme. LOL... I love grading line play... We ran zone blocking plays throughout the year... on the order of 5 or 10% of our runs. We were not very good at it. Only at year's end when Baker played did it produce positive yardage on anything approaching a consistant basis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thenew23 Posted February 8, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 8, 2014 What was the average YPC off left-tackle? Browns averaged 5.13 yards, the NFL average was 3.97. Seattle ran 25% of the time off left tackle (most in the NFL) b/c they averaged 4.52, good for 7th best Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tour2ma Posted February 8, 2014 Report Share Posted February 8, 2014 Browns averaged 5.13 yards, the NFL average was 3.97. Seattle ran 25% of the time off left tackle (most in the NFL) b/c they averaged 4.52, good for 7th best Thanks... Seattle seemed to be primarily a tackle to tackle team with Lynch running, so that LT percentage makes sense... We, as you originally pointed out, seemed to primarily run up the gut with McGahee, but I would think we also swept/ ran outside more than Seattle with Ogby and our smaller backs. Point being that it would dilute our "off Left tackle" percentage as well as every other tackle to tackle percentage... Side note: I often have a hard time figuring out what to classify a zone-blocked run. I mean if the "hole" is between the LG and LT, but they've slid right far enough that the hole is between where the RG and RT originally lined up... what do you call that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Couch Pulls Out Posted February 9, 2014 Report Share Posted February 9, 2014 Thanks... Seattle seemed to be primarily a tackle to tackle team with Lynch running, so that LT percentage makes sense... We, as you originally pointed out, seemed to primarily run up the gut with McGahee, but I would think we also swept/ ran outside more than Seattle with Ogby and our smaller backs. Point being that it would dilute our "off Left tackle" percentage as well as every other tackle to tackle percentage... Side note: I often have a hard time figuring out what to classify a zone-blocked run. I mean if the "hole" is between the LG and LT, but they've slid right far enough that the hole is between where the RG and RT originally lined up... what do you call that? I'm not sure I know exactly what you're asking, but I'll say this. Generally, there are no predestined holes in a zone blocking scheme, which is more or less the point of the scheme. In a very basic zone scheme, you'll have your left zone, right zone, inside zone, and then your counters. When grading zone blocking assignments for my teams, I always graded them in three players sets. So if there's a right zone, I would grade the C, RG, RT, etc. Because it's such a fluid scheme for the offensive linemen, it hides glaring weakness across the line but it also can screw up some fundamentally sound line calls in a basic power scheme. I have watched absolutely zero film on Shanahan's scheme yet, so I'm not sure the freedom he gives his linemen, but a problem with more basic zone schemes is that it eliminates the opportunity for wraps, crosses and other combo blocks that would otherwise free up a decent hole. For instance, say the call is an I- Form, strong left, outside zone left and the defense is in a basic 4-3 shaded to the strong side. There's a 5 tech outside the LT, a 3 tech on the LG, a skinny 1i on the C, the ROLB has B gap responsibility and the MLB on A. In a basic zone read, LT pushes left on the 5, LG pushes left on the 3 and tries to collapse him onto the ROLB and the C is going to hopefully disrupt the 1i enough while trying to reach block the MLB. It hinges heavily on the LG and C making their reaches and disrupting the second level, while not allowing any penetration either. In that same formation, but a power blocking scheme, the LG can call a wrap, take the MLB, the C fills that vacated spot and takes the 3 tech and then the FB has a clean block on the 1i, leaving the back to choose which iso matchup he'd rather take. The zone scheme is brilliant but it puts a lot of responsibility on pure athleticism if the inside guys aren't afforded the freedom of calling out the more high percentage combo blocks. Like I said, I haven't watched any Shanny tape yet so I'm just speaking in pure hypotheticals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thenew23 Posted February 9, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 9, 2014 ^ I'm going to have to watch some of Alfred Morris' runs from last year to learn more. I have always thought that Shanahan teams utilize a FB who clears that MLB/OLB gap you mentioned in your example above. The o-line would "spread out" the D-line and allow the FB to get to linebackers in short run calls. Also, do you know if there less pulling from G's in the zone blocking scheme? All I know, is Morris was able to rush for over 1200 yards (4th in the NFL) with 1- 1st rounder, 1- 2nd rounder, 1- 4th rounder, 1- 5th rounder, and 1- UDFA on his starting O-line... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Osiris Posted February 9, 2014 Report Share Posted February 9, 2014 ^ I'm going to have to watch some of Alfred Morris' runs from last year to learn more. I have always thought that Shanahan teams utilize a FB who clears that MLB/OLB gap you mentioned in your example above. The o-line would "spread out" the D-line and allow the FB to get to linebackers in short run calls. Also, do you know if there less pulling from G's in the zone blocking scheme? All I know, is Morris was able to rush for over 1200 yards (4th in the NFL) with 1- 1st rounder, 1- 2nd rounder, 1- 4th rounder, 1- 5th rounder, and 1- UDFA on his starting O-line... I haven't seen any guard pulls in the zone blocking plays drawn up in madden 25. I think the scheme makes it uneccesary since linemen move more laterally in a zone scheme. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tour2ma Posted February 9, 2014 Report Share Posted February 9, 2014 "Tim Couch Pulls Out" post="385405" (excerpts in Italic font) I'm not sure I know exactly what you're asking... Not surprising since I convoluted two things:1. Because the scheme is so fluid and a "hole" (often more like a crease) can develop seemingly anywhere, intent is hard to discern.2. If, as in my attempted example, the hole materializes between the LG and LT yet they have slid so far to the right that they are in fact near the RT and RG's pre-snap "spots"; where do you score the run?An easier example might in fact be a backside cut where the RB runs left of the LT, but the LT is essentially where the RG stated from...Clearer mud? When grading zone blocking assignments for my teams, I always graded them in three players sets. So if there's a right zone, I would grade the C, RG, RT, etc. Helpful... and with enough data points your approach will ultimately ID individual contributions...What gives me pause though is that it seems zone schemes are designed to force and take advantage of defensive errors (in almost a passive-aggressive fashion) rather than brute force the issue or influence the D. Any validity to this view? Because it's such a fluid scheme for the offensive linemen, it hides glaring weakness across the line..The zone scheme is brilliant but it puts a lot of responsibility on pure athleticism if the inside guys aren't afforded the freedom of calling out the more high percentage combo blocks.These two statements seem almost irrevocably exclusive to me. It just seems that for zone schemes to be successful all five line members have to move in such unison that glaring athletic deficiencies of any one player are magnified. Whereas in classic drive, pull and trap schemes you can designate roles tailored to each players strengths thus concealing their weaknesses.In either case the knowledge and experience to recognize the need for calls enhances the scheme, albeit perhaps not equally.. Our OGs' combination of inexperience and sub-par athleticism certainly accounts for what I saw during 3013.At any rate.. thanks for the info. Zone blocking is not exactly in my experience base... at best have a conceptual knowledge of it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tour2ma Posted February 9, 2014 Report Share Posted February 9, 2014 The concept calls for the entire line to move in unison... so traditional pulling does not occur. Which lineman releases to the 2nd level can vary. I have seen the backside guard peel to seal off backside pursuit... kind of a reverse pull. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoyceRolls Posted February 9, 2014 Report Share Posted February 9, 2014 I'm all for landing Asamoah or Beadles in Fa, and using a mid-round selection on the O-line Spencer Long, Dakota Dozier at G? Antonio Richardson, Seantrel Henderson at OT? IMO Pinkston is a hard-worker who is still young enough to show marked improvement, Gilkey also deserves a shot. If we can add a starter in FA and a starter in the draft, this O-line will be in good shape, especially when you consider the amount of youth already in Cleveland. I know the OP wanted to avoid this discussion, but I also believe that improving the QB position will also improve the O-line greatly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tour2ma Posted February 9, 2014 Report Share Posted February 9, 2014 ... I also believe that improving the QB position will also improve the O-line greatly. I think we all saw that for a couple games in 2013... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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