I know you guys don't like last years draft hindsight threads...

[JohnnyFootfungus]

When this draft class finishes its third season before you anoint them great.

 

Want to evaluate your front office? IMO, Dont look at 1-3.

That is pure crap shoot from the countries best potential.

You hit or bust on early round draft picks. The busts come out of nowhere for no reason. It just happens every year.

Look for what value your FO plucks in 4-7. Lots of gems buried there, and whoever finds them wins games.

The Bills BLEW their second on a LT who looks like he plays in quick sand, but scored a direct hit in round 7 with a guy now rated as a mid first round pick in Seantrel Henderson, our starting RG.

Henderson is RT...but yes, I was kind of saying the same thing above.

[Tour2ma]

When this draft class finishes its third season before you anoint them great.

 

Want to evaluate your front office? IMO, Dont look at 1-3.

That is pure crap shoot from the countries best potential.

You hit or bust on early round draft picks. The busts come out of nowhere for no reason. It just happens every year.

Look for what value your FO plucks in 4-7. Lots of gems buried there, and whoever finds them wins games.

The Bills BLEW their second on a LT who looks like he plays in quick sand, but scored a direct hit in round 7 with a guy now rated as a mid first round pick in Seantrel Henderson, our starting RG.

I don't really agree with your premise. An FO has to hit a high percentage of their Rnd 1-3 picks, because the talent pool is so dense there. Maybe the random failure of a high #1 is not the end, but accumulate enough misses and its all the talent other teams hit upon that leave you in the dust.

 

At any rate... Since we only took Desir in rounds 4-7, and traded away the rest of our Day 3 picks, we need a little more data to evaluate our FO. Fortunately for them their FA selections have been golden... Crowell, Gabriel, and Williams have all been significant, rookie contributors. And their vet FA signings have been great as well.

 

Henderson had a first round grade, reduced by off-field concerns. In the 7th he was a no-brainer.

[Clevfan4life]

 

 

Really? Have you looked at the 49'ner won loss record? They've lost seven games.

 

 

 

what does that have to do with how Borland is playing? Have you seen what he's done since he became the starter in week 7? If I'm not mistaken he's got more tackles than both Dansby and Kirksey while not being the starter for 7 games. That's what this thread is about. Not that I think Kirksey is terrible, but how much better Borland is. Better than our big FA signing ILB too I might add. That's the kind of LB'er I want in Cleveland. I've talking for weeks here how none of our guys hardly ever meets the runner in the hole...ever. Not a single run stop has stood out to me the whole season. There are at least 2 or 3 run stops Borland made on Thursday that I can still remember clearly. Against Marshawn Lynch no less. I've made no bones about how unhappy I am with the way this defense is playing the past several weeks despite us still having a winning record. That winnign record is imo solely based on Hoyer. Just think what our record would be if we had been able to keep a few practice squad bums to 100 yds or less. And if this defense really played to it's potential, we might even have had a shot at a first round bye. That's the major source of my frustration. And I don't know really who to rage on for it. Is it the players or scheme? But as to your argument that it's a new scheme....is not Borland in a "new scheme" himself? I dunno....it should frustrate all of you that we weren't able to shit on the North harder.

[Tim Couch Pulls Out]

 

what does that have to do with how Borland is playing? Have you seen what he's done since he became the starter in week 7? If I'm not mistaken he's got more tackles than both Dansby and Kirksey while not being the starter for 7 games. That's what this thread is about. Not that I think Kirksey is terrible, but how much better Borland is. Better than our big FA signing ILB too I might add. That's the kind of LB'er I want in Cleveland. I've talking for weeks here how none of our guys hardly ever meets the runner in the hole...ever. Not a single run stop has stood out to me the whole season. There are at least 2 or 3 run stops Borland made on Thursday that I can still remember clearly. Against Marshawn Lynch no less. I've made no bones about how unhappy I am with the way this defense is playing the past several weeks despite us still having a winning record. That winnign record is imo solely based on Hoyer. Just think what our record would be if we had been able to keep a few practice squad bums to 100 yds or less. And if this defense really played to it's potential, we might even have had a shot at a first round bye. That's the major source of my frustration. And I don't know really who to rage on for it. Is it the players or scheme? But as to your argument that it's a new scheme....is not Borland in a "new scheme" himself? I dunno....it should frustrate all of you that we weren't able to shit on the North harder.

 

Those practice squad bums that you referenced are, I'm assuming, Lorenzo Taliaferro, Alfred Blue and Denard Robinson.

 

Taliaferro rushed 13 times for 71 yards against SF, at 5.5 YPC. Compare that to his 18 carries for 93 yards, for 5 YPC.

 

Robinson carved up Miami's 11th ranked rushing defense for 108 yards on 18 carries, for a 6.0 YPC. He also fared pretty well against Cincinnati, who's ranked similarly to Cleveland in rushing defense.

 

 

So maybe these "practice squad" players are actually fairly decent talent. And maybe, just maybe, our young defense doesn't suck as bad as you suggest.

[Clevfan4life]

Those practice squad bums that you referenced are, I'm assuming, Lorenzo Taliaferro, Alfred Blue and Denard Robinson.

 

Taliaferro rushed 13 times for 71 yards against SF, at 5.5 YPC. Compare that to his 18 carries for 93 yards, for 5 YPC.

 

Robinson carved up Miami's 11th ranked rushing defense for 108 yards on 18 carries, for a 6.0 YPC. He also fared pretty well against Cincinnati, who's ranked similarly to Cleveland in rushing defense.

 

 

So maybe these "practice squad" players are actually fairly decent talent. And maybe, just maybe, our young defense doesn't suck as bad as you suggest.

 

don't forget Forsett added another 11 carries for 60 some odd yds. Indy held all 3 Raven RB's to 90 yds on 15 carries total. And Alfred Blue? His best game prior to the Cle game was 78 yds on 13 carries against the awful Giants. Oakland held him to 40 yds on 11 carries. C'mon dude these guys are shit. Look at Blues game log and you see one particular game stand out rather conspicuously. Infact if it weren't for that one game he's probably back on the Texans practice squad. 35% of his total season yds came against one team. C'mon really? Our run defense doesn't suck?

 

[Clevfan4life]

Oh and Denard's back to reality too...14 carries for 25 yds against Indy. Actually I'm sorry that's a solid Trich outing my bad.

[Tour2ma]

For a no brainier, everyone passed up on him. Off field concerns don't seem to carry weight if the player performs, especially at tackle.

Solid tackles are almost as hard to develop as a QB, and this guy seems dedicated to working hard to get past the past and becoming the player he has the talent to become.

Off field issues? Hell, the Ravens kept their murderer.. Off field concerns are almost a joke IMHO. Teams are so hypocritical with that label. If the player performs, he can almost be OJ Simpson off the field.

 

I believe over 50% of first round picks are out of the league by the third year. Don't quote me, but I know I'm close.

The dense talent pool of blue chippers are still littered with lemons in the making. But identifying and selecting early round players is as dense as the talent, which makes it somewhat easier.

Want players who can keep a team winning? It's the FO job to find those late round gems. Those are the picks the scouts have to drive those thousands of miles and work hard to identify.

That was my original point.

 

When the Bills had Bill Polian as their GM, the Bills were solid in the mid to late rounds which brought us our success in the 90s. From then until last year, our mid round choices seemed to be the Bills early cut list.

I really like two of the regulars on ESPN's NFL Insiders, Louis Riddick and Bill Polian. I record the show daily and fast forward through most topics excepting when they talk. Browns' segments and other topics of interest, I listen to in their entirety, and most of the time they reinforce Louis' and Bill's command.

 

"No brainer" was intended to speak well of Seantrel's value, not to minimize the pick.

 

When you say gems"... are you talking good or great players?

[Tim Couch Pulls Out]

 

don't forget Forsett added another 11 carries for 60 some odd yds. Indy held all 3 Raven RB's to 90 yds on 15 carries total. And Alfred Blue? His best game prior to the Cle game was 78 yds on 13 carries against the awful Giants. Oakland held him to 40 yds on 11 carries. C'mon dude these guys are shit. Look at Blues game log and you see one particular game stand out rather conspicuously. Infact if it weren't for that one game he's probably back on the Texans practice squad. 35% of his total season yds came against one team. C'mon really? Our run defense doesn't suck?

 

1,000 yard rusher Justin Forsett? With back-to-back-to-back 100+ yard games?

 

When we get a back that does that, let me know.

 

Secondly, holding an opposing team to 90 yards on 15 carries isn't "holding" then at all. That's a 6.0 YPC. That's getting run all over. Baltimore didn't get stopped on the ground, they just didn't choose to run the ball.

 

Blue was held to 40 yards on 11 carries against Oakland, you're right. Because Foster rushed for 138 yards and a TD on 28 carries that game. Blue was the change of pace, not the starting RB like he was against us.

 

31% of Blue's season yards were against the Browns, that is a solid point. But that's probably because 30% of his total season carries were also against Cleveland. The guy has been a full-time, full workload back for one game this season - against Cleveland. Outside of his 36 carry game against Cleveland, he's never carried the ball more than 16 times this season.

 

Stats are good...but don't try and skew them to suit your argument.

 

We have a young defense that has had key injuries in the front seven. That's hard to overcome. That's doesn't make it a bad defense, that makes it an unfortunate one.

[Tour2ma]

When we get a back that does that, let me know.

So... a little more free time finally?

 

And while were at it... I trust that you did not happen to watch the Bills' game.

[Tim Couch Pulls Out]

So... a little more free time finally?

 

And while were at it... I trust that you did not happen to watch the Bills' game.

 

A little more with the holidays coming up... and finally a phone that has decent internet capabilities.

 

I did not get to watch it, I was driving home after the long Thanksgiving weekend. Listened to it here and there on the radio, but didn't want to jinx them. Turns out it didn't matter, they still lost.

[Clevfan4life]

1,000 yard rusher Justin Forsett? With back-to-back-to-back 100+ yard games?

 

When we get a back that does that, let me know.

 

Secondly, holding an opposing team to 90 yards on 15 carries isn't "holding" then at all. That's a 6.0 YPC. That's getting run all over. Baltimore didn't get stopped on the ground, they just didn't choose to run the ball.

 

Blue was held to 40 yards on 11 carries against Oakland, you're right. Because Foster rushed for 138 yards and a TD on 28 carries that game. Blue was the change of pace, not the starting RB like he was against us.

 

31% of Blue's season yards were against the Browns, that is a solid point. But that's probably because 30% of his total season carries were also against Cleveland. The guy has been a full-time, full workload back for one game this season - against Cleveland. Outside of his 36 carry game against Cleveland, he's never carried the ball more than 16 times this season.

 

Stats are good...but don't try and skew them to suit your argument.

 

We have a young defense that has had key injuries in the front seven. That's hard to overcome. That's doesn't make it a bad defense, that makes it an unfortunate one.

 

1) Was it Forsett that gouged us specifically though?

2) So by your argument, give any bum off the street enough carries and he'll carve our defense up? Well why don't we call guys out of the stands on sunday then...seems like a solid plan. Should be fine.

3) I understand we've had injuries, but this goes back to game 1. There's something amiss with our run defense and I'm the first to admit I have zero clue what it is...scheme or personnel or both. No idea. Can't figure it out. On Sunday at least though, Robertson was sniffing the gaps. First time I've seen one of our ILB'ers really meet guys in the hole for coffee and pleasantries. First time. If it was me I'd keep him there even if Dansby came back.

[Tour2ma]

I did not get to watch it, I was driving home after the long Thanksgiving weekend. Listened to it here and there on the radio, but didn't want to jinx them. Turns out it didn't matter, they still lost.

... or the jynx extends to the radio as well...

[Tim Couch Pulls Out]

 

1) Was it Forsett that gouged us specifically though?

2) So by your argument, give any bum off the street enough carries and he'll carve our defense up? Well why don't we call guys out of the stands on sunday then...seems like a solid plan. Should be fine.

3) I understand we've had injuries, but this goes back to game 1. There's something amiss with our run defense and I'm the first to admit I have zero clue what it is...scheme or personnel or both. No idea. Can't figure it out. On Sunday at least though, Robertson was sniffing the gaps. First time I've seen one of our ILB'ers really meet guys in the hole for coffee and pleasantries. First time. If it was me I'd keep him there even if Dansby came back.

 

No, it was specifically Zo Taliaferro- a tremendously skilled runningback from Coastal Carolina, and I'd love to see anyone say any different.

 

My argument is that these guys aren't just any "bums off the street". The illogical and off-base thinking of many fans, including a whole handful of posters here, is that a player is "garbage" or "practice squad worthy" if he wasn't taken in the first two rounds or he's not an active, every game starter. Taliaferro is averaging 4.2 YPC and Blue is averaging 3.5. These aren't world beaters by any means, but they are more than "practice squad bums" and to call them as such is not only a disservice to them, it's a disservice to our defense.

 

Our run defense isn't the best, I know that. At times our LB's have been nowhere to be found and we're often still suffering from the "D'Qwell Jackson syndrome" - that is, linebackers not consistently meeting runningbacks at the LOS or in the backfield when they have the opportunity. I wasn't able to watch the game this Sunday, but if what you say about Robertson is true, then that is a step in the right direction.

 

However, like I said and you referenced, there have been key injuries among the front 7 all season long. Desmond Bryant has only played just over 50% of defensive snaps. Rubin- 35%. Mingo- 40%. Taylor played in 15% of snaps all year. Kirksey is a rookie and has played the equivalent of one half of every game all year. Dansby is new, and now hurt. We lost DQJ, who was a vocal leader of the defense. Mingo is playing with a mild to sever shoulder injury. They are all in a "new" system with a new coordinator. These are all contributing factors. Excuses, sure. But factors nonetheless.

 

They should be hitting their stride right now, but they aren't. It's upsetting, but it's not a bad defense and it doesn't need to be blown up. These are capable, talented players with a capable, talented coach. Something is amiss.

[Clevfan4life]

 

No, it was specifically Zo Taliaferro- a tremendously skilled runningback from Coastal Carolina, and I'd love to see anyone say any different.

 

My argument is that these guys aren't just any "bums off the street". The illogical and off-base thinking of many fans, including a whole handful of posters here, is that a player is "garbage" or "practice squad worthy" if he wasn't taken in the first two rounds or he's not an active, every game starter. Taliaferro is averaging 4.2 YPC and Blue is averaging 3.5. These aren't world beaters by any means, but they are more than "practice squad bums" and to call them as such is not only a disservice to them, it's a disservice to our defense.

 

Our run defense isn't the best, I know that. At times our LB's have been nowhere to be found and we're often still suffering from the "D'Qwell Jackson syndrome" - that is, linebackers not consistently meeting runningbacks at the LOS or in the backfield when they have the opportunity. I wasn't able to watch the game this Sunday, but if what you say about Robertson is true, then that is a step in the right direction.

 

However, like I said and you referenced, there have been key injuries among the front 7 all season long. Desmond Bryant has only played just over 50% of defensive snaps. Rubin- 35%. Mingo- 40%. Taylor played in 15% of snaps all year. Kirksey is a rookie and has played the equivalent of one half of every game all year. Dansby is new, and now hurt. We lost DQJ, who was a vocal leader of the defense. Mingo is playing with a mild to sever shoulder injury. They are all in a "new" system with a new coordinator. These are all contributing factors. Excuses, sure. But factors nonetheless.

 

They should be hitting their stride right now, but they aren't. It's upsetting, but it's not a bad defense and it doesn't need to be blown up. These are capable, talented players with a capable, talented coach. Something is amiss.

 

I don't believe the defense has to blown up from the players stance, yet....I just think the scheme has to change to fit them better. Buffalo, where pettine fucking came from, is running a better hybrid then we are. We have plenty capable players to match that defense....from what I read Buffalo's defense is just continuing what was going on when Pettine was there.

[RoyceRolls]

 

I don't believe the defense has to blown up from the players stance, yet....I just think the scheme has to change to fit them better. Buffalo, where pettine fucking came from, is running a better hybrid then we are. We have plenty capable players to match that defense....from what I read Buffalo's defense is just continuing what was going on when Pettine was there.

 

Exactly, they are continuing what they have been doing. In other words, they are playing in a familiar system, they're comfortable. I won't contribute everything to continuity, but it certainly has to count for something. The browns have been mixing up their personnel all year and have not been able to find a true comfort zone. It seems that as soon as the defense does start to play with some authority another injury mixes everything up all over again. It appears that Pettine and co. are building a culture and identity and I hope it continues.

[Tour2ma]

I don't believe the defense has to blown up from the players stance, yet....I just think the scheme has to change to fit them better. Buffalo, where pettine fucking came from, is running a better hybrid then we are. We have plenty capable players to match that defense....from what I read Buffalo's defense is just continuing what was going on when Pettine was there.

I thought BUF was running a pure 4-3 now under Schwartz... no???

 

If healthy, then I think we match the Bills fairly well personnel-wise, but I do not know who is our Mario Williams.

[Clevfan4life]

I thought BUF was running a pure 4-3 now under Schwartz... no???

 

If healthy, then I think we match the Bills fairly well personnel-wise, but I do not know who is our Mario Williams.

 

Last sunday they probably ran 80% 4-3. They have 3-4 packages where they take out Williams I believe, and put in a hybrid type OLB.

 

Kruger should be our Mario Williams. We took a couple lbs off him since his Blt days cause we're asking more of him in coverage. It ain't workin. Kruger could be a 15-20 sack guy if he put his hands down most of the time and put back on some of that weight.

[Tour2ma]

Last sunday they probably ran 80% 4-3. They have 3-4 packages where they take out Williams I believe, and put in a hybrid type OLB.

 

Kruger should be our Mario Williams. We took a couple lbs off him since his Blt days cause we're asking more of him in coverage. It ain't workin. Kruger could be a 15-20 sack guy if he put his hands down most of the time and put back on some of that weight.

Totally agree on Kruger at DE, but don't see the speed in him needed to produce a Mario-ish sack total. Krugs is good for bulling and the occasional rip, but even pushing 30 Mario can still beat RTs off the line and run past them.

[Frenchie]

I think it was a terrific draft (and FA) and really reduced many areas of need (plus another first round pick). I'll go out on a limb and say that both first round picks last year will be starters in 2015. Gilbert is too talented an athlete who just needs more time to adjust to the NFL. I may be wrong, but I'm not ready to call him a bust. Would I take a WR instead? Yes. But I'm hoping Gilbert will prove me wrong.

[Clevfan4life]

Totally agree on Kruger at DE, but don't see the speed in him needed to produce a Mario-ish sack total. Krugs is good for bulling and the occasional rip, but even pushing 30 Mario can still beat RTs off the line and run past them.

 

Mario to me looks like he beats Tackles around the edge by carving it off, not necessarily going wide untouched..ala a Mingo type. Watt is the same way, they look like they're going around the edge when in reality they're just doing a running lateral delt raise with the OT. This is what I wish Kruger would get back to. Give him his great bulrush back and somebody teach him how to lean into the edge and he's at 15 sacks min. Same goes with Sheard. Some games they could be in there together and have one or both the Bryants subbing for them, other games they could be subbing in for each other with Mingo gunning the other edge all game if there's a tackle the DC thinks is susceptible to speed rush like Mingo. Keeping both Sheard and Kruger in at OLB'er all game is just stupid and wears them down. Their energies should be projected at the line all game long, we can still drop them back from time to time to confuse defense's as they'd obviously be capable of it...but the majority of their time should be spent either getting around the tackle or holding them up in the run game. And that should all be done from the hands down position which allows them to blow into the tackle. This is what both those guys are built for, what we're doing now is wasting their energy so when it is time to get after the QB they're tired.

[Tour2ma]

True... I should have said "... run past some" as he did the NYJ's RT.

 

Mario did not beat Schwartz cleanly Sunday (at least not in the first half... as far as I have gotten), but he got the edge twice and levered Mitch big time, most effectively by virtually stiff-arming with his right to MS's right shoulder.

[Clevfan4life]

True... I should have said "... run past some" as he did the NYJ's RT.

 

Mario did not beat Schwartz cleanly Sunday (at least not in the first half... as far as I have gotten), but he got the edge twice and levered Mitch big time, most effectively by virtually stiff-arming with his right to MS's right shoulder.

 

love that move