The Cysko Kid Posted October 1, 2015 Report Share Posted October 1, 2015 Theres a sliding scale. "We need a small leap of faith in gaps we haven't yet discovered, but we have a mountain of other evidence to support it" does not equal "There's no scientific evidence for this whatsoever, but I have faith!" Not to mention the whole age of the earth, universe thing. I'm not saying the non-creationist side is 100% complete and has no remaining questions. I'm saying I see no logical reason to choose the creationist side in that argument. The only way that happens, in my opinion, is ignorance. Either unintentional or willful. Ex, what Carson was saying about the 2nd law of thermodynamics. And again, how the earth was actually created has very little or no effect on a presidency. I'm concerned with how Carson got to that conclusion and if he'll use similar reasoning on things that will have a direct affect on me. I guess that's as close to an admission as you can muster, so I'll accept it. Theoretically, though, the closer to modern day animals the easier finding remains and fossils should be. This should be easier to prove in reverse with more evidence of the transformation from blue jay to dinosaur than ancient dinosaur to slightly less ancient dinosaur. What I'm trying to say is that the logical gap should be older rather than younger in scale. The very fact that there's nothing between dinosaur and blue jay is what feeds Carson's point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Cysko Kid Posted October 1, 2015 Report Share Posted October 1, 2015 I see no reason to say that the big bang is a realistic theory of the universe and that said big bang wasn't caused by the hand of a creator. After all how can nothingness expand to substance in a nanosecond or whatever time frame the theory gives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MLD Woody Posted October 1, 2015 Report Share Posted October 1, 2015 Well that's a fair answer but you could have answered neither one as to the balls question. I was just curious as to whether or not there was any Republican who you would vote for today against Hillary Clinton. You can sit the vote out if you choose. Among the possible Democrats I prefer Joe Biden to the others but I don't know if I vote for him over the Republican candidate. Depends. And I understand that's a cop out on my part. WSS I haven't read up a ton on the Rep candidates. I've just watched the debates. Once it thins down, I'll have a better idea. I would have no problem voting for a rep that takes modern social views I also would be interested in Biden. I've watched a few interviews and he seems like a good guy. Again though, I'd need more info or a debate or something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westside Steve Posted October 1, 2015 Report Share Posted October 1, 2015 Biden was considered a conservative Democrat and brought onto the ticket to balance out the far left Obama. I get the feeling he's been pushed to the left just by being required to support the president. And to suck up to the Democrat base. WSS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MLD Woody Posted October 1, 2015 Report Share Posted October 1, 2015 I see no reason to say that the big bang is a realistic theory of the universe and that said big bang wasn't caused by the hand of a creator. After all how can nothingness expand to substance in a nanosecond or whatever time frame the theory gives. Except that's not what he's saying. He believes thr Earth is 6,000 years old and that its existed like that ever since. Where is the evidence for that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MLD Woody Posted October 1, 2015 Report Share Posted October 1, 2015 I guess that's as close to an admission as you can muster, so I'll accept it. Theoretically, though, the closer to modern day animals the easier finding remains and fossils should be. This should be easier to prove in reverse with more evidence of the transformation from blue jay to dinosaur than ancient dinosaur to slightly less ancient dinosaur. What I'm trying to say is that the logical gap should be older rather than younger in scale. The very fact that there's nothing between dinosaur and blue jay is what feeds Carson's point. Admission of what? That has been what I've been saying from the beginning. There is no proof for creationism in the "God of the gaps" argument. I've seen nothing to support his believes yet. Just inaccurate science. Ex, 2nd law of thermo. Another ex, we didn't evolve from modern day apes, we both evolved from a common ancestor. There is a ton of info out there on evolution. Unless it is your field, you could probably never grasp it all. But misinformation isn't proof of creationism... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MLD Woody Posted October 1, 2015 Report Share Posted October 1, 2015 Biden was considered a conservative Democrat and brought onto the ticket to balance out the far left Obama. I get the feeling he's been pushed to the left just by being required to support the president. And to suck up to the Democrat base. WSS A conservative Dem or a liberal Rep works for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VaporTrail Posted October 1, 2015 Report Share Posted October 1, 2015 The candidates this year suck. I like Bernie's politics best, but he's a pussy. I've gotta agree with Woody on Carson - his willful ignorance makes him one of the worst candidates for me. I hate that the GOP is trying to defund planned parenthood when only 3% of its funding goes to abortions and less than 1% of offices conduct fetal stem cell donation. PP is an incredible resource for both men's and women's reproductive health (e.g. my girlfriend and I went there when we first started dating to get STI screenings). Plus, abortions are legal, and they're going to continue to be legal in this country forever. Once someone decides to get an abortion, those embryos are being destroyed, one way or another. Thanks to legislation from the right, the ability to donate these tissues to science is severely restricted, and 99% of abortions occur only to make the life of the parents easier. Fetal stem cells are a scientific gold mine, and it's a shame that research in that area is being held back when it could have such a positive impact on the greater good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Cysko Kid Posted October 1, 2015 Report Share Posted October 1, 2015 Except that's not what he's saying. He believes thr Earth is 6,000 years old and that its existed like that ever since. Where is the evidence for that? Somewhere along the line you've lost the narrative. I never defended Carson's views. What I've said is I understand them and also I plain out don't care about them. How the earth came to be has absolutely no bearing at all on politics and human matters. He could believe Zeus shit the earth out whole yesterday for all I care. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MLD Woody Posted October 1, 2015 Report Share Posted October 1, 2015 That's how we got a polio vaccine, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MLD Woody Posted October 1, 2015 Report Share Posted October 1, 2015 Somewhere along the line you've lost the narrative. I never defended Carson's views. What I've said is I understand them and also I plain out don't care about them. How the earth came to be has absolutely no bearing at all on politics and human matters. He could believe Zeus shit the earth out whole yesterday for all I care. Great. And I'm giving you a reason why I think it matters. Apparently Vapor agrees. Maybe he can do a better job with it than I have Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbedward Posted October 1, 2015 Report Share Posted October 1, 2015 The big bang isn't wrong. We'll never know what existed before the bang or what caused it, but it definitely happened. We observe radiation from it all around, see everything rapidly moving away from each other, etc, etc. If Carson said "well we can't be 100% sure what created the universe, whatever" that'd be fine. Using made-up quasi-science to disprove the theory is just plain dumb, poor judgement, misleading. MLD's concern is valid about his possible judgement - although it's probably nothing to worry about. He could see a lot more homosexuality combined with an earthquake and think it's the end of the world or something. Also, Adventist's are a little weird. They worship a prophet woman from the 80s who wrote a book on plagiarized work. They've also been known to hold really extreme views over the years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clevfan4life Posted October 1, 2015 Report Share Posted October 1, 2015 The candidates this year suck. I like Bernie's politics best, but he's a pussy. I've gotta agree with Woody on Carson - his willful ignorance makes him one of the worst candidates for me. I hate that the GOP is trying to defund planned parenthood when only 3% of its funding goes to abortions and less than 1% of offices conduct fetal stem cell donation. PP is an incredible resource for both men's and women's reproductive health (e.g. my girlfriend and I went there when we first started dating to get STI screenings). Plus, abortions are legal, and they're going to continue to be legal in this country forever. Once someone decides to get an abortion, those embryos are being destroyed, one way or another. Thanks to legislation from the right, the ability to donate these tissues to science is severely restricted, and 99% of abortions occur only to make the life of the parents easier. Fetal stem cells are a scientific gold mine, and it's a shame that research in that area is being held back when it could have such a positive impact on the greater good. I'd like to talk about those fetal stem cells for a moment. I'm an independent guy, on some things I lean left and on some I lean right. Most social issues I lean left "to a point". Like I support gay people until I see them promenading down my street in their jockstraps waving their flag, than it'll be over for em. Same with abortion. I've always supported the innate right of a woman to do with her body as she chooses even if we find what she does distasteful. I'm now up against that stance with this whole late term thing. I've always supported a womans right to choose with the given that it was a mistake and she's not in the right place to have a child. That I understand. But we're getting now to a situation where there's the possibility that some women are carrying pregnancies to late term in order to profit off the fetal parts, or at least being encouraged by some people at PP to do so, so that PP can profit. Now I have a problem. Now one thing I haven't been able to figure out is what the fuck people want with fetal parts at that stage of development. I understood when bio research companies wanted to harvest embryo's from invitro fertiliztation clinics, because those embryos were going to just be destroyed anyway. And with embryo's, you get embryonic stem cells...I get it. But what the fuck do people want with fetal parts that already have differentiated cells? I'm sorry but I have to draw a line at people getting pregnant for the sole purpose of some ghoulish harvesting ceremony to some pagan gods. Ok that's a joke but i'm not sure just how much of a joke, there might actually be something to that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westside Steve Posted October 1, 2015 Report Share Posted October 1, 2015 That's how we got a polio vaccine, right? Well and antibiotic resistant tuberculosis also. WSS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VaporTrail Posted October 1, 2015 Report Share Posted October 1, 2015 That I understand. But we're getting now to a situation where there's the possibility that some women are carrying pregnancies to late term in order to profit off the fetal parts, or at least being encouraged by some people at PP to do so, so that PP can profit. Now I have a problem. The notion that PP is offering financial incentive for people to donate fetal tissue is ridiculous. Here's a statement from PP in response to that claim: https://www.plannedparenthood.org/about-us/newsroom/press-releases/statement-from-planned-parenthood-on-new-undercover-video Now one thing I haven't been able to figure out is what the fuck people want with fetal parts at that stage of development. I understood when bio research companies wanted to harvest embryo's from invitro fertiliztation clinics, because those embryos were going to just be destroyed anyway. And with embryo's, you get embryonic stem cells...I get it. But what the fuck do people want with fetal parts that already have differentiated cells? Because human embryonic and fetal development is a treasure trove of information we don't fully understand. Being able to take a look at gene expression at set points during development would be able to give us a better understanding of how it works; the implications of this understanding are Nobel prize worthy and will lead to medical breakthroughs that we probably can't even imagine. We conduct these kinds of experiments on animals, but there are obviously limitations to what that can tell us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westside Steve Posted October 1, 2015 Report Share Posted October 1, 2015 Speaking of willful ignorance, anybody want to address the idea that the Iranians are trustworthy and letting them off the hook sanction wise is a good idea and makes the area and our own country safer? But stubbornly forcing that on the world just to piss off your opponents... WSS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VaporTrail Posted October 1, 2015 Report Share Posted October 1, 2015 Speaking of willful ignorance, anybody want to address the idea that the Iranians are trustworthy and letting them off the hook sanction wise is a good idea and makes the area and our own country safer? But stubbornly forcing that on the world just to piss off your opponents... WSS Explain how backing Israel makes the US safer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westside Steve Posted October 1, 2015 Report Share Posted October 1, 2015 Explain how backing Israel makes the US safer. That's not what we're talking about we're talking about bending over and allowing Iran to develop nuclear weapons. Explain how that makes the world safer. WSS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VaporTrail Posted October 1, 2015 Report Share Posted October 1, 2015 That's not what we're talking about we're talking about bending over and allowing Iran to develop nuclear weapons. Explain how that makes the world safer. WSS Because, like every other country with nuclear capability, they'll be used as a deterrent. Them having nukes doesn't make your average American citizen any less safe. What it does is prevents the country from being bullied by others. Oh, and they share a border with Iraq. Maybe this will help them control that ISIS-infested shithole instead of us funneling billions into it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Cysko Kid Posted October 1, 2015 Report Share Posted October 1, 2015 The big bang isn't wrong. We'll never know what existed before the bang or what caused it, but it definitely happened. We observe radiation from it all around, see everything rapidly moving away from each other, etc, etc. If Carson said "well we can't be 100% sure what created the universe, whatever" that'd be fine. Using made-up quasi-science to disprove the theory is just plain dumb, poor judgement, misleading. MLD's concern is valid about his possible judgement - although it's probably nothing to worry about. He could see a lot more homosexuality combined with an earthquake and think it's the end of the world or something. Also, Adventist's are a little weird. They worship a prophet woman from the 80s who wrote a book on plagiarized work. They've also been known to hold really extreme views over the years. We have a president right now who leaps to immediate conclusions on racial issues which very much matter to people's lives without having any of the facts and you're worried about the possible judgement of a guy because he is a creationist vs an evolutionist which matters not a whit to anybody's life. Got it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbedward Posted October 1, 2015 Report Share Posted October 1, 2015 We have a president right now who leaps to immediate conclusions on racial issues which very much matter to people's lives without having any of the facts and you're worried about the possible judgement of a guy because he is a creationist vs an evolutionist which matters not a whit to anybody's life. Got it. Nobody cares what he is. But for the millionth time he creates fake theories to support his personal beliefs. Maybe that's kind of like how the current prez creates fake data to say they're doing a good job against isis. There's many other choices for prez, not like he's the only option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MLD Woody Posted October 1, 2015 Report Share Posted October 1, 2015 Just keep repeating it... It'll get through Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Cysko Kid Posted October 1, 2015 Report Share Posted October 1, 2015 You do understand that there are branches of government for a reason right? It's to prevent people from making cockamamie decisions based on things like religion. I don't believe he would impose religion based decisions on the populace in any case. Whatever words come out of your mouth what it boils down to is "being a lying, corrupt scumbag is acceptable but being religious is not". That makes me question your judgement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MLD Woody Posted October 1, 2015 Report Share Posted October 1, 2015 I can't control what you hear, just what I say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LogicIsForSquares Posted October 1, 2015 Report Share Posted October 1, 2015 Because, like every other country with nuclear capability, they'll be used as a deterrent. Them having nukes doesn't make your average American citizen any less safe. What it does is prevents the country from being bullied by others. Oh, and they share a border with Iraq. Maybe this will help them control that ISIS-infested shithole instead of us funneling billions into it. Who is bullying Iran? If you are saying Israel, I would say they aren't the one flapping their gums about wiping Iran out. A known sponsor of terrorism should be prevented from developing a nuclear weapon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LogicIsForSquares Posted October 1, 2015 Report Share Posted October 1, 2015 I also don't see how Iranian nukes would be a deterrent to ISIS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieHardBrownsFan Posted October 1, 2015 Report Share Posted October 1, 2015 Anyone who thinks Iran having Nukes is a good thing should turn in there medical school credentials and get the fuck out of my country Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westside Steve Posted October 1, 2015 Report Share Posted October 1, 2015 Israel has nukes and it hasn't deterred Hamas from fucking with them incessantly. Do you think it would be better if Hamas had access to Syrian nuclear weapons? WSS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MLD Woody Posted October 1, 2015 Report Share Posted October 1, 2015 Countries need open carry... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VaporTrail Posted October 2, 2015 Report Share Posted October 2, 2015 Anyone who thinks Iran having Nukes is a good thing should turn in there medical school credentials and get the fuck out of my country Israel has nukes and it hasn't deterred Hamas from fucking with them incessantly. Do you think it would be better if Hamas had access to Syrian nuclear weapons? WSS We aren't talking about Hamas. We're talking about Iran. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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