gftChris Posted May 3, 2016 Report Share Posted May 3, 2016 http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2016-05-02/a-basic-income-should-be-the-next-big-thing The basic premise is, everyone gets some annual stipend, just for existing, to cover the basic cost of things like food and shelter. The amount talked about here - $10k - is enough to scrape by, but not enough to really have a great life. From the liberal point of view, you go a long way to eradicating poverty, and without all the string attached to welfare qualifications. You start with $10k, you work 40 hours per week at minimum wage, say $7.50 an hour, take 5 weeks holiday (at least, that's the standard here, not sure about there?) you get an income of around $24k per year. From the conservative point of view, it means you don't need to raise the minimum wage really at all, you don't have abuse of welfare to anywhere near the same degree (making up fake children or whatever) because all welfare programs get rolled in to this one, and as a result of that, you end up with much less government involvement, and in turn, less government. As for where the money comes from - if you have $10k per adult, for what, 250m adults in the US? That's $2.5tn per year. According to the website below (first one returned when I googled, other sites will give slightly different numbers, but it's in the same order of magnitude), spending looks currently like this: Social Security: $930bn Medicare: $565bn Medicaid: $488bn Welfare (benefits): $383bn Totals around $2.4bn. Throw in the VAT that the government will get back on the $10k each person spends, and this basically ends up costing less than current welfare spending. http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/us_welfare_spending_40.html As for the philosophy of it, I believe that this is where we will end up going in the future, though I don't know where or when. We will get to the point where most of the minimum wage jobs are automated - including food prep, factory, custodial etc - and there will be a section of the populace that is unable to find any work at all, and this would be the way to stop them from just starving. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gftChris Posted May 3, 2016 Author Report Share Posted May 3, 2016 I'm not sure, btw, what current social security benefits are, so I don't know if retired people would be worse or better off if this were implemented tomorrow. Going forward, though, it means that there's not an added burden on the state when someone reaches 65 (or whatever the retirement age there is), so it's a lot easier to plan national finances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieHardBrownsFan Posted May 3, 2016 Report Share Posted May 3, 2016 I'm applying for 'early' (age 62) Social security at the end of the week, and will start collecting in October. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westside Steve Posted May 3, 2016 Report Share Posted May 3, 2016 My income is made up from revenue as musician, Investments and Rental property. Frankly I'm not quite sure how much my social security check will be but I'm waiting until I am full age. As far as a guaranteed 10 grand a year? I have no beef with a basic package of sustenance, but I don't see the difference between that and a combination of food stamps, housing, medical and energy subsidies we already have in place. I do think there is a myth of huge numbers of people starving in the streets like they have in third world countries. But there is a path of least resistance that human beings, at least part of them, are happy enough with. The ten Grand a year just makes a small change in the way subsidization of that group is accomplished. WSS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gftChris Posted May 3, 2016 Author Report Share Posted May 3, 2016 My income is made up from revenue as musician, Investments and Rental property. Frankly I'm not quite sure how much my social security check will be but I'm waiting until I am full age. As far as a guaranteed 10 grand a year? I have no beef with a basic package of sustenance, but I don't see the difference between that and a combination of food stamps, housing, medical and energy subsidies we already have in place. I do think there is a myth of huge numbers of people starving in the streets like they have in third world countries. But there is a path of least resistance that human beings, at least part of them, are happy enough with. The ten Grand a year just makes a small change in the way subsidization of that group is accomplished. WSS Hence the republican interest - if people are mooching anyway, might as well give everyone money, and you cut all the departments that decide if you're eligible, and save a bunch of money there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westside Steve Posted May 3, 2016 Report Share Posted May 3, 2016 Hence the republican interest - if people are mooching anyway, might as well give everyone money, and you cut all the departments that decide if you're eligible, and save a bunch of money there. Don't misunderstand, I'm not offended by the plan, I don't think it will make anyone happy, or at least happier than they are now but fine with me. WSS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Cysko Kid Posted May 3, 2016 Report Share Posted May 3, 2016 You can't change the mentality of poor people. If they take their ten thousand dollars and blow it immediately on lottery tickets and cigarettes there's no helping them. The defining aspect of all poor people is that they're terribly irresponsible. I have a wife who doesn't work and three kids and yet I have nice stuff (some have more, many have less) and I attribute that directly to responsible spending and living within my means. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westside Steve Posted May 3, 2016 Report Share Posted May 3, 2016 Also if you think about it those agencies provide a lot of jobs for people who would otherwise be on the Dole and figuring out ways to work the system gives something of a sense of purpose to the recipients. WSS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westside Steve Posted May 3, 2016 Report Share Posted May 3, 2016 And remember Chris that it won't be long before the ten grand isn't nearly enough. You will have an entire new Battleground with those who want to raise it to 11 12 13 you name it. Not unlike the minimum wage. No matter where you put it people will say it should be more. Another thought is eliminating food stamps takes away the incentive to buy actual food and not cigarettes, lottery tickets and beer. And good luck selling that to the farm States. WSS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gftChris Posted May 3, 2016 Author Report Share Posted May 3, 2016 And remember Chris that it won't be long before the ten grand isn't nearly enough. You will have an entire new Battleground with those who want to raise it to 11 12 13 you name it. Not unlike the minimum wage. No matter where you put it people will say it should be more. Another thought is eliminating food stamps takes away the incentive to buy actual food and not cigarettes, lottery tickets and beer. And good luck selling that to the farm States. WSS It would rise in line with inflation, so there would be no need to squabble over what it should be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westside Steve Posted May 3, 2016 Report Share Posted May 3, 2016 It would rise in line with inflation, so there would be no need to squabble over what it should be. In a perfect world. WSS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gftChris Posted May 3, 2016 Author Report Share Posted May 3, 2016 In a perfect world. WSS That's something that can be written in to law though. It is here with regard to state pensions - it's called the 'triple lock', and pensions rise by the maximum of price inflation, wage inflation, or 2.5%. Same could apply to the minimum income. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clevfan4life Posted May 3, 2016 Report Share Posted May 3, 2016 You can't change the mentality of poor people. If they take their ten thousand dollars and blow it immediately on lottery tickets and cigarettes there's no helping them. Than that's that. If people misuse social netting that's on them. But that doesn't negate the concept because some people do this. I think it's terribly generalizing to say all poor people are irresponsible with their money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Cysko Kid Posted May 3, 2016 Report Share Posted May 3, 2016 Than that's that. If people misuse social netting that's on them. But that doesn't negate the concept because some people do this. I think it's terribly generalizing to say all poor people are irresponsible with their money. Yeah? Show me some poor people that aren't irresponsible with their money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Browns149 Posted May 3, 2016 Report Share Posted May 3, 2016 Yeah? Show me some poor people that aren't irresponsible with their money. I'm sure there are some, but the percentage is probably low. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Cysko Kid Posted May 3, 2016 Report Share Posted May 3, 2016 My aunt's husband left her with four kids ages 12-3 and she fell on real hard times. They knew what it was to be poor. Yet she buckled down and spent what money she did have wisely and climbed out of that back to middle class status. People who are perennially poor are irresponsible with money. It is what it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LogicIsForSquares Posted May 3, 2016 Report Share Posted May 3, 2016 When I was real young, my parents struggled with money. We were really poor. However, my dad busted his ass and was good with money. By the time I graduated highschool, we were firmly middle class and lived in a house that we owned. My dad was able to retire early because of how well he ended up managing his money/real estate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieHardBrownsFan Posted May 3, 2016 Report Share Posted May 3, 2016 When I was real young, my parents struggled with money. We were really poor. However, my dad busted his ass and was good with money. By the time I graduated highschool, we were firmly middle class and lived in a house that we owned. My dad was able to retire early because of how well he ended up managing his money/real estate. I come from a poor family also. My Dad worked his ass off but never made good money. Worked in the Flats which ultimately I'm sure caused his death by Lung Cancer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
One Post Posted May 3, 2016 Report Share Posted May 3, 2016 I come from a poor family as well because my dad was a lazy ass. Ya I said it, he was a lazy MFer. I grew up to hate him and his ways of coning church goers into giving money and behind closed doors seen how it really was. I moved out when I was young and went to school. Now I sit here wanting more money but when I look around it could've been a lot worse. Think about if you were born in a different country where they don't even have running water. Now to the topic fuck no don't give anybody 10 grand. For what? So they can smoke it up and then what program is out there that helps them after that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westside Steve Posted May 5, 2016 Report Share Posted May 5, 2016 Chris I've been thinking this over for a while and decided that I don't like the basic 10% giveaway. As I've said before I have no problem with a safety net for those on the bottom but just to hand it out no questions asked takes away the slightest bit of incentive in my opinion. Not only that but cement the feeling of entitlement, and the resentment that would probably lead to. It's not even a cost effectiveness issue just basic human pride. WSS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gftChris Posted May 5, 2016 Author Report Share Posted May 5, 2016 Chris I've been thinking this over for a while and decided that I don't like the basic 10% giveaway. As I've said before I have no problem with a safety net for those on the bottom but just to hand it out no questions asked takes away the slightest bit of incentive in my opinion. Not only that but cement the feeling of entitlement, and the resentment that would probably lead to. It's not even a cost effectiveness issue just basic human pride. WSS I can see what you're saying, and I understand that. What I would be interested in knowing is, how much can you get from the system if you just sit at home, do nothing, have, say, 4 kids, and mooch? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gftChris Posted May 5, 2016 Author Report Share Posted May 5, 2016 Quick test says it's around $700 per month, so $8400 per year, in SNAP benefits alone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westside Steve Posted May 5, 2016 Report Share Posted May 5, 2016 I can see what you're saying, and I understand that. What I would be interested in knowing is, how much can you get from the system if you just sit at home, do nothing, have, say, 4 kids, and mooch? I don't know for sure. Two of my tenants are on disability and they get 750 bucks a month plus food stamps and Medicaid and and an energy program is available. I'm not sure how much extra ADC chips in if they were women with children. Both these guys are adult men and didn't grow up exactly in a culture of welfare. WSS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White Dog Posted May 5, 2016 Report Share Posted May 5, 2016 I don't know for sure. Two of my tenants are on disability and they get 750 bucks a month plus food stamps and Medicaid and and an energy program is available. I'm not sure how much extra ADC chips in if they were women with children. Both these guys are adult men and didn't grow up exactly in a culture of welfare. WSS Welcome to the new and improved Obama world If they were illegal immigrants they would get a new home, new car, 3 times the social security income and free health care damn if you were here as an illegal you won the lottery Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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