Vietnam Documentary

[OldBrownsFan]

Been watching the Vietnam war documentary on PBS and it's been interesting. The documentary seems to be just portraying the facts as they were and not coming at it with any type of agenda. Fault is laid on both democrat and republican administrations. A couple of things surprised me though one being that early into this war we knew it was not winnable so why did it go on for years afterwards? It seems more like just trying to save face more than anything else.

Also I knew already about Hanoi Jane Fonda going to Vietnam and saying some disgraceful things but had no idea she had actually called for the execution of our POW's in Vietnam calling them war criminals. That gal should never be allowed to even live in this country after saying something like that!

[FairHooker11]

watching it too when I get a chance - so much behind the scenes stuff that makes more sense to me - although I was only 15yo when it ended. 

regarding Jane Fonda - I heard it from her own mouth and it was to say the least dispicable...

thought of John Kerry to a lesser extent with his "testimony"  and its being based on second hand conversation 

 

[OldBrownsFan]

12 minutes ago, FairHooker11 said:

watching it too when I get a chance - so much behind the scenes stuff that makes more sense to me - although I was only 15yo when it ended. 

regarding Jane Fonda - I heard it from her own mouth and it was to say the least dispicable...

thought of John Kerry to a lesser extent with his "testimony"  and its being based on second hand conversation 

 

I was in boot camp when the war ended but never really understood how the ARVN collapsed so easily and quickly in 1975 and the documentary explains it. There was so much corruption in the S. Vietnam government and military as well as the S. Vietnam government not having the support of the people in the countryside that once we left it was just a matter of time before the whole thing collapsed. The way I remember it South Vietnam decided to abandon the Central Highlands which is about 1/4th of the country and as they retreated it quickly turned into a rout and in a matter of weeks the war was over. Right before I left for bootcamp which was during the collapse I remember on the news a S. Vietnam commander at Xuan Loc saying unlike the other ARVN troops running away his troops would fight and if you read the battle at Xuan Loc the ARVN did fight very well but they were heavily outnumbered at that point and eventually had to fall back to Saigon.

During the collapse I wanted the US to start bombing again but after seeing the documentary I can see now why we didn't and I think once we knew we would not win the war we should have gotten our soldiers out as there was no sense in seeing our soldiers needlessly being killed. JMO

 

*John Kerry should have been stopped immediately when he started with the hearsay stories/testimony.

 

[FairHooker11]

The US ground war was just a disaster plus the people of the region,

 didnt seem to have the will ( North and South) to fight and rightly so!

except the bravery of the ARVN when the North got pissed at America stockpiling its weaponry / supplies 

in the South provinces EVEN after the declared US troop pullout, the ARVN defended its ground and won back territory 

with the help of yet another huge bombing campaign in the north on Christmas 1972 (was it?) 

who except the powers that be would agree to fight in this war? for Nixon it was all about the election both times...

makes me understand the protests a little more although  a muddled mess of its own...

[OldBrownsFan]

1 minute ago, FairHooker11 said:

The US ground war was just a disaster plus the people of the region,

 didnt seem to have the will ( North and South) to fight and rightly so!

except the bravery of the ARVN when the North got pissed at America stockpiling its weaponry / supplies 

in the South provinces EVEN after the declared US troop pullout, the ARVN defended its ground and won back territory 

with the help of yet another huge bombing campaign in the north on Christmas 1972 (was it?) 

who except the powers that be would agree to fight in this war? for Nixon it was all about the election both times...

makes me understand the protests a little more although  a muddled mess of its own...

I never understood the Watergate break in (McGovern had almost no chance of winning) but the documentary shed some light on it. In 68 apparently the Nixon campaign advised North Vietnam not to negotiate until after the election and negotiate with Nixon. Johnson said that was treasonous and Nixon denied it but the documentary said it was factual. It might have been the Watergate break in had something to do with trying to stop damaging documents from coming out that showed Nixon had contacted North Vietnam in 68 and advised them not to come to the negotiating table until after the election? 

 

[TexasAg1969]

26 minutes ago, OldBrownsFan said:

I was in boot camp when the war ended but never really understood how the ARVN collapsed so easily and quickly in 1975 and the documentary explains it. There was so much corruption in the S. Vietnam government and military as well as the S. Vietnam government not having the support of the people in the countryside that once we left it was just a matter of time before the whole thing collapsed. The way I remember it South Vietnam decided to abandon the Central Highlands which is about 1/4th of the country and as they retreated it quickly turned into a rout and in a matter of weeks the war was over. Right before I left for bootcamp which was during the collapse I remember on the news a S. Vietnam commander at Xuan Loc saying unlike the other ARVN troops running away his troops would fight and if you read the battle at Xuan Loc the ARVN did fight very well but they were heavily outnumbered at that point and eventually had to fall back to Saigon.

During the collapse I wanted the US to start bombing again but after seeing the documentary I can see now why we didn't and I think once we knew we would not win the war we should have gotten our soldiers out as there was no sense in seeing our soldiers needlessly being killed. JMO

 

*John Kerry should have been stopped immediately when he started with the hearsay stories/testimony.

 

I have been recording it but have not yet started to watch. But I will say that after working with the S. Vietnamese and seeing how corrupt they were above the rank of Major for the most part, I was predicting the 1975 collapse when I returned home the summer of '71. But having read Bernard Fall's "Street Without Joy" about the French Indochina War, I thought they would last about 5 to 10 years after the last American combat units left somewhat like they had lasted about 10 years after the French had left in 1954 before American combat units came in (though we had advisors there before that). I was off in my estimates and that was the only surprise to me.

[OldBrownsFan]

37 minutes ago, TexasAg1969 said:

I have been recording it but have not yet started to watch. But I will say that after working with the S. Vietnamese and seeing how corrupt they were above the rank of Major for the most part, I was predicting the 1975 collapse when I returned home the summer of '71. But having read Bernard Fall's "Street Without Joy" about the French Indochina War, I thought they would last about 5 to 10 years after the last American combat units left somewhat like they had lasted about 10 years after the French had left in 1954 before American combat units came in (though we had advisors there before that). I was off in my estimates and that was the only surprise to me.

I didn't record the first series but have recorded all the others. 71 was about the time my brother was over there. He never talked about the war afterwards with me but he had a circle of Vietnam veteran friends who he probably shared things with. I never knew he had  been highly decorated until after his death. He didn't want his obituary in the paper and wanted only a private service with family only. One of his vet friends approached me angrily wanting to know why he wasn't being honored and his death being kept private (that is when I found out he had  been highly decorated). This vet understood though when  I told him I was following my brothers wishes.

 

You were accurate with your prediction of '75. 

[TexasAg1969]

11 minutes ago, OldBrownsFan said:

I didn't record the first series but have recorded all the others. 71 was about the time my brother was over there. He never talked about the war afterwards with me but he had a circle of Vietnam veteran friends who he probably shared things with. I never knew he had  been highlky decorated until after his death. He didn't want his obituary in the paper and wanted only a private service with family only. One of his vet friends approached me angrily wanting to know why he wasn't being honored and his death being kept private (that is when I found out he had  was highly decorated). This vet understood though when  I told him I was following my brothers wishes.

 

You were accurate with your prediction of '75. 

I understand your brother completely. When my younger brother was married about 10 years ago I proposed a toast to his new wife and offered her my Bronze Star for agreeing to put up with him for life. None of my family had ever heard me talk about that before and it came as a shock both to them to hear it and for me to have actually let it slip even in humor. Since that time I have been bugged by my family to write up my experiences there and also by a couple of vets I have talked with about it. Maybe I should. I know I enjoyed walking in the footsteps of my grandfathers WW I daily diary in the Meuse Argonne and the St. Micheal Salient in France, so perhaps it is time.

[OldBrownsFan]

4 minutes ago, TexasAg1969 said:

I understand your brother completely. When my younger brother was married about 10 years ago I proposed a toast to his new wife and offered her my Bronze Star for agreeing to put up with him for life. None of my family had ever heard me talk about that before and it came as a shock both to them to hear it and for me to have actually let it slip even in humor. Since that time I have been bugged by my family to write up my experiences there and also by a couple of vets I have talked with about it. Maybe I should. I know I enjoyed walking in the footsteps of my grandfathers WW I daily diary in the Meuse Argonne and the St. Micheal Salient in France, so perhaps it is time.

I think you should. I wish my brother would have shared it with me. Not even when I was taking care of him on Hospice care did he ever talk about it.

[TexasAg1969]

1 minute ago, OldBrownsFan said:

I think you should. I wish my brother would have shared it with me. Not even when I was taking care of him on Hospice care did he ever talk about it.

Let me see if I can help you there. I tell people that going to Vietnam was like going from earth to another completely alien planet in another solar system and finding ways to adjust to it. But when you come home, the planet earth you left has somehow changed so it seems alien too. Then you try to explain what it was you just returned from and the words are just inadequate before you finally just keep it to yourself. The reason it is easier to talk to others who have been there is that you don't have to define it with words, just shared alien experiences. No translation usually needed.

[OldBrownsFan]

1 hour ago, TexasAg1969 said:

Let me see if I can help you there. I tell people that going to Vietnam was like going from earth to another completely alien planet in another solar system and finding ways to adjust to it. But when you come home, the planet earth you left has somehow changed so it seems alien too. Then you try to explain what it was you just returned from and the words are just inadequate before you finally just keep it to yourself. The reason it is easier to talk to others who have been there is that you don't have to define it with words, just shared alien experiences. No translation usually needed.

Speaking as a Christian what I am the most happy about is that I helped my brother get into a relationship with God. It started with a bible I bought him and to my surprise he started reading it. He would ask me questions though about the bible and I could tell he wasn't getting it and I got him another bible with a Pastor's study notes that helped explain bible teachings and that was when he really took off. I got him a video tape of a Vietnam veteran who was also a minister (Dave Roever) who himself had been badly wounded in Vietnam and had a ministry with Vietnam veterans. 

My brother led a "hard" life but gradually the changes in his life were pretty amazing. As a heavy drinker he quit. He quit smoking (he told me that was the hardest). He had a bad gambling addiction that he was able to get a handle on. He never stopped gambling completely but quit the large betting and rationed himself so much money per month to gamble with and would stop when it was gone until the next month. He didn't go to church but read the bible daily and what he learned he put into practice. I was really proud of him. I remember at the VA one time he asked me about a form he was filling out about what denomination he was (because he didn't go to church) and I told him just write down he was a Christian. He had a falling out with our dad and they hadn't spoken to each other for close to 10 years and they were able to patch things up. I found out after his death he had been financially giving to many charitable groups. When he died he died very peacefully.

The Vietnam vets my brother introduced me to were really great people and thank you Tex for your service.

 

[Clevfan4life]

Been watching it too. I had no idea those poor vietnamese were subject to those french cocksuckers for so many years. Ive really come away with admiration fir vietnam. They are some of the most remarksble people on the planet. And it wasnt just paleface that fucked with them, other asian cultures at one point or another have fucked with them. Their resiliency is quite remarkable.

Whats even more remarkable is how they're doing today. They're socialists more ir less in name only, it seems they took marx's teachings to heart and opened up their markets internally to their own people. Didnt let global multinationals come in and suck out the soul of their country, like whats happened in virtually every free market country including right here in the u.s 

[TexasAg1969]

I'm glad to hear that about your brother OBF. I believe he beat us "home"!