Clay Matthews & Doug Dieken H.O.F. worthy?

[BrownsfaninPa]

As a long time Browns fan, you always want to see former players make it in the HALL OF FAME. Iam very opinionated about recent players that have been voted in and personally, I don't feel they deserve to be in yet if at all. Recent players such as Jonathon Ogeden, Kevin Greene, and Jason Taylor all have been voted in. But to me, a player from years ago should be in because of the era and rules of their time of playing. For example, some stats for QB sacks, were not kept on record until about 1983, so a player such as Clay Matthews don't have stats to show what he accomplished as a player. Today there are records for how many times a player sneezes in the huttle, etc. Maybe iam just wanting these 2 players in because of my Browns devotion and support. Clay Matthews holds records at LB for years of service, games played and team records as well. 19 yrs in the NFL and that isn't H.O.F. worthy? Rams DE Jackie Slater , or Saints LB, Ricky Jackson are in, so why not Clay? And I feel the same for OL Doug Dieken. I compare his stats with H.O.F. Cardinals OL, Dan Dierdorf. Dan went to more Pro Bowls, but other than that, what did he do to out shine Doug Dieken?

[nickers]

Clay yes.. Diek.. not so much

[ballpeen]

Clay is borderline IMO....probably just shy but might get in with the old timer vote.  Games played doesn't count for much.  Don't get me wrong, I loved the guy and hope he does.  He is close....if 100 was the score you needed to get in, he might be at 97-98

 

Diek....no...he was a solid player, but not one of the best all-time.

[nickers]

Clay also never missed a day.. On that alone he should get in... Cal Ripken got into the BHOF.. For about the same in merit.

[Canton Dawg]

Clay is still looking good for a guy his age. . .

 

[The Gipper]

48 minutes ago, nickers said:

Clay yes.. Diek.. not so much

D.I.C.K Shafrath far more HOF worth than Dieken.

 

Defense & Fumbles

 

• * Selected to Pro Bowl, + First-Team All-Pro
•  

					Games		Def Interceptions					Fumbles					Sacks & Tackles
Year	Age	Tm	Pos	No.	G	GS	Int	Yds	TD	Lng	PD	FF	Fmb	FR	Yds	TD	Sk	Tkl	Ast	Sfty	AV
Career					176	158							0	3	27	0					115
1959	22	CLE		80	12	0
1960	23	CLE	LT	77	12	12															8
1961	24	CLE	LT	77	13	13							0	1	0	0					7
1962	25	CLE	LT	77	14	14															7
1963*+	26	CLE	LT	77	14	14							0	1	0	0					12
1964*+	27	CLE	LT	77	14	14															15
1965*+	28	CLE	LT	77	14	14															13
1966*	29	CLE	LT	77	13	13															11
1967*	30	CLE	LT	77	14	13															8
1968*	31	CLE	LT	77	14	14															10
1969+	32	CLE	LT	77	14	14															12
1970	33	CLE	LT	77	14	14							0	1	27	0					6
1971	34	CLE	LT	77	14	9															6

 

8 time Pro Bowler,   4 time First Team All Pro.  

[The Gipper]

Here perhaps is the most HOF worth player in NFL history who is not in the HOF.   Former OSU tackle Jim Tyrer:

Defense & Fumbles

 

 

					Games		Def Interceptions					Fumbles					Sacks & Tackles
Year	Age	Tm	Pos	No.	G	GS	Int	Yds	TD	Lng	PD	FF	Fmb	FR	Yds	TD	Sk	Tkl	Ast	Sfty	AV
1961	22	DTX		77	14	13															3
1962*	23	DTX	LT	77	14	0															10
1963*	24	KAN	LT	77	14	0															10
1964*	25	KAN	LT	77	14	0															10
1965*+	26	KAN	LT	77	14	0															11
1966*+	27	KAN	LT	77	14	0															13
1967+	28	KAN	LT	77	14								0	1	3	0					13
1968*+	29	KAN	LT	77	14	14															13
1969*+	30	KAN	LT	77	14	14															11
1970*+	31	KAN	LT	77	14	14															11
1971*	32	KAN	LT	77	14	14							0	1	0	0					9
1972	33	KAN	LT	77	14	14															5
1973	34	KAN	LT	77	12	12															5
1974	35	WAS	t	71	14	1

 

9 Pro Bowls.    6 time First team All Pro.

Does anyone want to take a guess as to why he is not in the HOF?   There is, pretty much, a specific reason.

[Zombo]

16 minutes ago, The Gipper said:

Here perhaps is the most HOF worth player in NFL history who is not in the HOF.   Former OSU tackle Jim Tyrer:

Defense & Fumbles

 

 

					Games		Def Interceptions					Fumbles					Sacks & Tackles
Year	Age	Tm	Pos	No.	G	GS	Int	Yds	TD	Lng	PD	FF	Fmb	FR	Yds	TD	Sk	Tkl	Ast	Sfty	AV
1961	22	DTX		77	14	13															3
1962*	23	DTX	LT	77	14	0															10
1963*	24	KAN	LT	77	14	0															10
1964*	25	KAN	LT	77	14	0															10
1965*+	26	KAN	LT	77	14	0															11
1966*+	27	KAN	LT	77	14	0															13
1967+	28	KAN	LT	77	14								0	1	3	0					13
1968*+	29	KAN	LT	77	14	14															13
1969*+	30	KAN	LT	77	14	14															11
1970*+	31	KAN	LT	77	14	14															11
1971*	32	KAN	LT	77	14	14							0	1	0	0					9
1972	33	KAN	LT	77	14	14															5
1973	34	KAN	LT	77	12	12															5
1974	35	WAS	t	71	14	1

 

9 Pro Bowls.    6 time First team All Pro.

Does anyone want to take a guess as to why he is not in the HOF?   There is, pretty much, a specific reason.

Murder/Suicide.

I think Clay deserves the Hall, but since he was an everydown versatile linebacker and not a pass rush specialist it is hard to to get past other guys.

Dieken belongs in the Browns Ring of Honor, but is no HOFer. Still one of my favorites.

Zombo

[mjp28]

Clay Matthews has the family name and reputation  working for him.

Dieken, Shafrath and other particularly older NFL players have a harder road there. We diehard Cleveland fans know them many current voters not so much.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000945249/article/predicting-hall-of-fames-class-of-2019-ed-reed-looms-large

Seniors

Every other year, two Seniors finalists can be named, with only one being named in alternating years. (The number of Contributor finalists flip-flops; when there are two Seniors, there is one Contributor, and vice-versa.) In 2018, two Seniors were nominated and inducted (Jerry Kramer and Robert Brazile), meaning only one Seniors finalist will be on the ballot for 2019. Put your money on Drew Pearson, WR, Cowboys. Pearson was most recently put back on the map by his antics at the 2017 NFL Draft, but one of the top players of the 1970s didn't actually need the extra pub. At least, not in theory. Here's a fun fact (well, unless you are Drew Pearson): Of all the skill-position players to have made the first-team All-Decade squads of the 1930s, '40s, '50s, '60s, '70s, '80s OR '90s, Pearson is the only one to not be in Hall of Fame. Oh, and good luck finding a more clutch player in NFL history. Ask Viking fans. Try asking the old Fulton County Falcons crowd, too.

Contributors

So, as explained above with a compass, protractor and TI-81 graphing calculator, two Contributor finalists will be allowed in 2019. Look for the Contributor nominees to be Broncos owner Pat Bowlen and Cowboys personnel czar Gil Brandt. John Elway, among others, has pushed loudly for Bowlen. Bowlen's work off the field, as well as the winners his employees produced on it, merits his inclusion. Feel strongly that this is the year for Bowlen.

[nickers]

The thing about Clay Mathews.. He excelled in both the 34 and 43 defenses... That's pretty hard to do in any era...

[mjp28]

9 minutes ago, nickers said:

The thing about Clay Mathews.. He excelled in both the 34 and 43 defenses... That's pretty hard to do in any era...

Football player.

He's got to be at least seriously considered.

[nickers]

26 minutes ago, mjp28 said:

Football player.

He's got to be at least seriously considered.

One would think and Hope.. I think he deserves it a whole lot more than Kevin Green.....

[The Gipper]

52 minutes ago, Zombo said:

Murder/Suicide.

Right.  Not too long after his career ended (or maybe in fact it did not end), he killed his wife and himself.  So he was given absolutely no HOF consideration.  So, I guess the moral of the story is that if you are going to kill....do it after you have been inducted (OJ).

I think Clay deserves the Hall, but since he was an everydown versatile linebacker and not a pass rush specialist it is hard to to get past other guys.

So right.  Guys like Kevin Greene or Charles Haley or Chris Doleman who had 100+ sacks get in, but our Clay, who had "only" 70 career sacks gets left out....even though...as you say, he was probably a better overall LB.....against the run, in coverage, etc. His son, Clay III has now surpassed him in sacks.  Good player....but overall, as good as his dad? maybe not. From what I can gather, tackles is not an official NFL stat...though see my followup post on this for unofficial numbers.

Dieken belongs in the Browns Ring of Honor, but is no HOFer. Still one of my favorites.

And, again, Schafrath

Zombo

 

[The Gipper]

The following is unofficial.   Apparently tackles were not kept track of by the league until 1994, but before that, each team kept their own stats, so these must have been cobbled together from those stats.  I can't even really give you a proper source for this, as it came off of a blog that I found:

 

PlayerPositionTacklesTeamsFirst YearLast Year

1.Jessie Tuggle LB 1,640 Falcons1987  

2. Ray Lewis LB 1,573 Ravens1996

3.Clay Matthews LB 1,561 Browns, Falcons 1978

4.Junior Seau LB 1,524 Chargers, Dolphins, Patriots 1990

5.Kyle Clifton LB1,468 Jets 1984

6.London Fletcher LB 1,378 Rams, Bills, Redskins1998

7.Derrick Brooks LB 1,301 Buccaneers 1995

8.Hardy Nickerson LB 1,271 Steelers, Buccaneers, Jaguars, packers 1987

9.Eugene Robinson DB 1,250 Seahawks, Packers, Falcons, Panthers 1985

10.Darryl Talley LB 1,190 Bills, Falcons, Vikings1983

11.Chris Spielman LB 1,181 Lions, Bills 1988

12.Rickey Jackson LB/DE 1,173 Saints, 49ers1981

13.Darrell Green DB 1,159 Redskins 1983

14.Dennis Smith DB 1,152 Broncos 1981

15.Mike Johnson LB 1,146 Browns, Lions 1986

16.Sam Mills LB1,142 Saints, Panthers 1986

17.Donnie Edwards LB 1,133 Chiefs, Chargers 1996

18.Ken Norton LB 1,130Cowboys, 49ers 1988

19.Ronnie Lott DB 1,113 49ers, Raiders, Jets 1981

20.Zach Thomas LB 1,106 Dolphins, Cowboys 1996

Edited to highlight HOFers

[mjp28]

And how many of the above were current or senior inductees to the  HOF? #3 certainly stands out on that list.

.......edit add the only other BROWN LB Mike Johnson. 

[The Gipper]

I think my above list also shows some disparity on if you play MLB vs.  OLB.   Chris Spielman has more total tackles than Rickey Jackson.....but Jackson makes the HOF because of his sack numbers.  And you don't see Kevin Greene or Haley or Doleman on that tackles leader list.

[mjp28]

4 minutes ago, The Gipper said:

I think my above list also shows some disparity on if you play MLB vs.  OLB.   Chris Spielman has more total tackles than Rickey Jackson.....but Jackson makes the HOF because of his sack numbers.  And you don't see Kevin Greene or Haley or Doleman on that tackles leader list.

And the quality of teams/defense they played on, schemes, era etc. but still a decent overall snapshot of LBs.

[The Gipper]

4 minutes ago, mjp28 said:

And the quality of teams/defense they played on, schemes, era etc. but still a decent overall snapshot of LBs.

Matthews played on teams/defenses as good as Rickey Jackson's Saints, as did Spielman.

[mjp28]

Just now, The Gipper said:

Matthews played on teams/defenses as good as Rickey Jackson's Saints, as did Spielman.

Happens a lot great players on lousy teams tend to get overlooked sometimes until the senior voting..... 1960 Dallas 1976 TB 1982 Baltimore 2008 Detroit 2017 Cleveland.  

[Tour2ma]

4 hours ago, nickers said:

Clay yes.. Diek.. not so much

Ditto...

Put Jerry Sherk on the "Deserving" list.

[nickers]

34 minutes ago, Tour2ma said:

Ditto...

Put Jerry Sherk on the "Deserving" list.

Walter Johnson was pretty badass also.. Hell... that whole unit was a surly lot...A Dline of Sherk,Johnson,Jones .. I know I'm forgetting somebody...Alzado ....Dayum.. That wasnt a bad haul on defense...

[Zombo]

8 minutes ago, nickers said:

Walter Johnson was pretty badass also.. Hell... that whole unit was a surly lot...A Dline of Sherk,Johnson,Jones .. I know I'm forgetting somebody...Alzado ....Dayum.. That wasnt a bad haul on defense...

Lots of different guys tried at DE, but we were always solid in the middle with Johnson and Sherk.

Should held on to Jack Gregory, he was a good one.

 

[nickers]

1 hour ago, Zombo said:

Lots of different guys tried at DE, but we were always solid in the middle with Johnson and Sherk.

Should held on to Jack Gregory, he was a good one.

 

If My memory serves right.. Jack Gregory became part of Mia (Shula's) No name defense...

[Zombo]

6 hours ago, nickers said:

If My memory serves right.. Jack Gregory became part of Mia (Shula's) No name defense...

No he had a long career with the Giants. Came back to the Browns for one season at the end of career.

There was a former Brown that played for that Dolphin defense ... Matheson?

Z

[nickers]

10 hours ago, Zombo said:

No he had a long career with the Giants. Came back to the Browns for one season at the end of career.

There was a former Brown that played for that Dolphin defense ... Matheson?

Z

Yup Matheson was it.. I think he was part of the Warfield trade to haul in Phipps..

[The Gipper]

12 hours ago, Zombo said:

No he had a long career with the Giants. Came back to the Browns for one season at the end of career.

There was a former Brown that played for that Dolphin defense ... Matheson?

Z

The 53 defense which I believe Miami ran was name after Matheson's number.  Here is a blurb on it:

Several teams adopted the “53 defense” that the perennial champion  Miami Dolphins instituted part time which saw DT Bill Heinz replaced with LB Bob Matheson, who wore #53, and could rush the passer as well as drop back into coverage. This change from 3 linebackers to 4 linebackers clogged the underneath passing routes.  Many teams that were desperate for a winner went for this new tactical defensive adaptation of the old’50’s  “Oklahoma” Bud Wilkinson defense full time.  The 3-4 was just the old “Wilkinson 5-2” which had the two ends take their hand off the ground and become trackers.