PROOF of Heaven - by a board certified Neurosurgeon.

[DieHardBrownsFan]

 

[jbluhm86]

[OldBrownsFan]

Actually there is more than one heaven spoken of in the bible. The Apostle Paul spoke of a third heaven implying there are two others. The third heaven Paul spoke about is God's heaven leaving us to try to figure out where the other two heavens are. Most Christians believe the earth's atmosphere is the first heaven and the stellar heavens the second heaven. Others believe the second heaven is a spiritual one where satan and demons dwell and the first heaven is the earth and universe and the entire physical realm. Nobody knows for sure, we only see through a dark glass right now.

[DieHardBrownsFan]

10 minutes ago, OldBrownsFan said:

Actually there is more than one heaven spoken of in the bible. The Apostle Paul spoke of a third heaven implying there are two others. The third heaven Paul spoke about is God's heaven leaving us to try to figure out where the other two heavens are. Most Christians believe the earth's atmosphere is the first heaven and the stellar heavens the second heaven. Others believe the second heaven is a spiritual one where satan and demons dwell and the first heaven is the earth and universe and the entire physical realm. Nobody knows for sure, we only see through a dark glass right now.

You can buy his book on Amazon, it goes into much more detail of what happened and on how his brain had no function during this time frame.

[jbluhm86]

5 hours ago, OldBrownsFan said:

Actually there is more than one heaven spoken of in the bible. The Apostle Paul spoke of a third heaven implying there are two others. The third heaven Paul spoke about is God's heaven leaving us to try to figure out where the other two heavens are. Most Christians believe the earth's atmosphere is the first heaven and the stellar heavens the second heaven. Others believe the second heaven is a spiritual one where satan and demons dwell and the first heaven is the earth and universe and the entire physical realm. Nobody knows for sure, we only see through a dark glass right now.

 

[Clevfan4life]

5 hours ago, OldBrownsFan said:

Actually there is more than one heaven spoken of in the bible. The Apostle Paul spoke of a third heaven implying there are two others. The third heaven Paul spoke about is God's heaven leaving us to try to figure out where the other two heavens are. Most Christians believe the earth's atmosphere is the first heaven and the stellar heavens the second heaven. Others believe the second heaven is a spiritual one where satan and demons dwell and the first heaven is the earth and universe and the entire physical realm. Nobody knows for sure, we only see through a dark glass right now.

i was raised catholic and never heard a breath of this rubbish but ill take ur word for it that its in there. 

Do a thought experiment...if u were an astronaut sitting on mars right now, heavens still "up"? This is the classic fallacy of primate thinking. That which is "higher" than us, a concept i have "zero" issue with btw im not an atheist.....is somehow "physically" above us as well. And people dont think allowing such nonsensical thought is a big deal but it absolutely is. Its the sole reason people many generations ago got duped into the gandalf sky wizard horseshit mythology. 

There are no x,y,z or cartesian coordinates to heaven and theres some bearded old white ngr in the sky waiting for u. And if u do find urself one day before something like that...take care because ur standing before the "great liar".

[DieHardBrownsFan]

It's so easy to trigger atheists.😂☕

[TexasAg1969]

Read the book and loved it. 👍

[Clevfan4life]

2 hours ago, DieHardBrownsFan said:

It's so easy to trigger atheists.😂☕

do u know the def of an "atheist"?

[OldBrownsFan]

2 hours ago, Clevfan4life said:

i was raised catholic and never heard a breath of this rubbish but ill take ur word for it that its in there. 

Do a thought experiment...if u were an astronaut sitting on mars right now, heavens still "up"? This is the classic fallacy of primate thinking. That which is "higher" than us, a concept i have "zero" issue with btw im not an atheist.....is somehow "physically" above us as well. And people dont think allowing such nonsensical thought is a big deal but it absolutely is. Its the sole reason people many generations ago got duped into the gandalf sky wizard horseshit mythology. 

There are no x,y,z or cartesian coordinates to heaven and theres some bearded old white ngr in the sky waiting for u. And if u do find urself one day before something like that...take care because ur standing before the "great liar".

New International Version  2 Corinthians 12:2
I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know--God knows.

New Living Translation 2 Corinthians 12:2
I was caught up to the third heaven fourteen years ago. Whether I was in my body or out of my body, I don’t know—only God knows. 

New International Version 2 Corinthians 12:4
was caught up to paradise and heard inexpressible things, things that no one is permitted to tell.

New Living Translation 2 Corinthians 12:4
that I was caught up to paradise and heard things so astounding that they cannot be expressed in words, things no human is allowed to tell. 

***************

Almost all bible scholars agree that Paul is talking about himself in the third person here, most likely when he was stoned and left for dead. I would have loved to have had Paul talk about the other two heavens but he didn't. He spoke of a third heaven and indicated that was God's heaven. One theory of the other two heavens is the second heaven is spiritual like the third heaven and the first heaven is the entire physical realm. The second heaven is where satan set up his kingdom. This goes along well with Daniel ch 10. The battle the angel refers to Daniel about is not physical but spiritual, the Persian prince is not physical but a spiritual being. This is a battle that takes place in the second heaven and not a physical battle but a spiritual one. 

Eph 6:12: For we wrestle not against flesh and blood but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world against spiritual wickedness in heavenly places.

Daniel ch 10:

⁴ On the twenty-fourth day of the first month, as I was standing on the bank of the great river, the Tigris, ⁵ I looked up and there before me was a man dressed in linen, with a belt of fine gold from Uphaz around his waist. ⁶ His body was like topaz, his face like lightning,his eyes like flaming torches, his arms and legs like the gleam of burnished bronze, and his voice like the sound of a multitude.

⁷ I, Daniel, was the only one who saw the vision; those who were with me did not see it, but such terror overwhelmed them that they fled and hid themselves. ⁸ So I was left alone, gazing at this great vision; I had no strength left, my face turned deathly pale and I was helpless. ⁹ Then I heard him speaking, and as I listened to him, I fell into a deep sleep, my face to the ground.

¹⁰ A hand touched me and set me trembling on my hands and knees.¹¹ He said, “Daniel, you who are highly esteemed, consider carefully the words I am about to speak to you, and stand up, for I have now been sent to you.” And when he said this to me, I stood up trembling.

¹² Then he continued, “Do not be afraid, Daniel. Since the first day that you set your mind to gain understanding and to humble yourself before your God, your words were heard, and I have come in response to them. ¹³ But the prince of the Persian kingdom resisted me twenty-one days. Then Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, because I was detained there with the king of Persia. ¹⁴ Now I have come to explain to you what will happen to your people in the future, for the vision concerns a time yet to come.”

¹⁵ While he was saying this to me, I bowed with my face toward the ground and was speechless. ¹⁶ Then one who looked like a man^[b]touched my lips, and I opened my mouth and began to speak. I said to the one standing before me, “I am overcome with anguish because of the vision, my lord, and I feel very weak. ¹⁷ How can I, your servant, talk with you, my lord? My strength is gone and I can hardly breathe.”

¹⁸ Again the one who looked like a man touched me and gave me strength. ¹⁹ “Do not be afraid, you who are highly esteemed,” he said. “Peace! Be strong now; be strong.”

When he spoke to me, I was strengthened and said, “Speak, my lord, since you have given me strength.”

²⁰ So he said, “Do you know why I have come to you? Soon I will return to fight against the prince of Persia, and when I go, the prince of Greece will come; ²¹ but first I will tell you what is written in the Book of Truth. (No one supports me against them except Michael, your prince.

[DieHardBrownsFan]

MAGA!

[Clevfan4life]

3 hours ago, OldBrownsFan said:

New International Version  2 Corinthians 12:2
I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know--God knows.

New Living Translation 2 Corinthians 12:2
I was caught up to the third heaven fourteen years ago. Whether I was in my body or out of my body, I don’t know—only God knows. 

New International Version 2 Corinthians 12:4
was caught up to paradise and heard inexpressible things, things that no one is permitted to tell.

New Living Translation 2 Corinthians 12:4
that I was caught up to paradise and heard things so astounding that they cannot be expressed in words, things no human is allowed to tell. 

***************

Almost all bible scholars agree that Paul is talking about himself in the third person here, most likely when he was stoned and left for dead. I would have loved to have had Paul talk about the other two heavens but he didn't. He spoke of a third heaven and indicated that was God's heaven. One theory of the other two heavens is the second heaven is spiritual like the third heaven and the first heaven is the entire physical realm. The second heaven is where satan set up his kingdom. This goes along well with Daniel ch 10. The battle the angel refers to Daniel about is not physical but spiritual, the Persian prince is not physical but a spiritual being. This is a battle that takes place in the second heaven and not a physical battle but a spiritual one. 

Eph 6:12: For we wrestle not against flesh and blood but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world against spiritual wickedness in heavenly places.

Daniel ch 10:

⁴ On the twenty-fourth day of the first month, as I was standing on the bank of the great river, the Tigris, ⁵ I looked up and there before me was a man dressed in linen, with a belt of fine gold from Uphaz around his waist. ⁶ His body was like topaz, his face like lightning,his eyes like flaming torches, his arms and legs like the gleam of burnished bronze, and his voice like the sound of a multitude.

⁷ I, Daniel, was the only one who saw the vision; those who were with me did not see it, but such terror overwhelmed them that they fled and hid themselves. ⁸ So I was left alone, gazing at this great vision; I had no strength left, my face turned deathly pale and I was helpless. ⁹ Then I heard him speaking, and as I listened to him, I fell into a deep sleep, my face to the ground.

¹⁰ A hand touched me and set me trembling on my hands and knees.¹¹ He said, “Daniel, you who are highly esteemed, consider carefully the words I am about to speak to you, and stand up, for I have now been sent to you.” And when he said this to me, I stood up trembling.

¹² Then he continued, “Do not be afraid, Daniel. Since the first day that you set your mind to gain understanding and to humble yourself before your God, your words were heard, and I have come in response to them. ¹³ But the prince of the Persian kingdom resisted me twenty-one days. Then Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, because I was detained there with the king of Persia. ¹⁴ Now I have come to explain to you what will happen to your people in the future, for the vision concerns a time yet to come.”

¹⁵ While he was saying this to me, I bowed with my face toward the ground and was speechless. ¹⁶ Then one who looked like a man^[b]touched my lips, and I opened my mouth and began to speak. I said to the one standing before me, “I am overcome with anguish because of the vision, my lord, and I feel very weak. ¹⁷ How can I, your servant, talk with you, my lord? My strength is gone and I can hardly breathe.”

¹⁸ Again the one who looked like a man touched me and gave me strength. ¹⁹ “Do not be afraid, you who are highly esteemed,” he said. “Peace! Be strong now; be strong.”

When he spoke to me, I was strengthened and said, “Speak, my lord, since you have given me strength.”

²⁰ So he said, “Do you know why I have come to you? Soon I will return to fight against the prince of Persia, and when I go, the prince of Greece will come; ²¹ but first I will tell you what is written in the Book of Truth. (No one supports me against them except Michael, your prince.

good lord thsts alot of convoluted nonsense. It seems like these people alot of acid and tried to put into human words tgat which was never supposed to be. Infact thats a running theory of mine....people throughout history using psychadelics to see the other side but not having the sense to understand that what ur seeing has been filtered through a profoundly unfit filter.....ie our human brains.

you cant bring back whst u see iver there...what ur shown is for u and u alone. 

[OldBrownsFan]

1 hour ago, Clevfan4life said:

good lord thsts alot of convoluted nonsense. It seems like these people alot of acid and tried to put into human words tgat which was never supposed to be. Infact thats a running theory of mine....people throughout history using psychadelics to see the other side but not having the sense to understand that what ur seeing has been filtered through a profoundly unfit filter.....ie our human brains.

you cant bring back whst u see iver there...what ur shown is for u and u alone. 

Paul didn't use any psychedelic drugs but he was likely "stoned" (literally) when he spoke of being taken up to the third heaven.

.

Paul Stoned at Lystra

^{Acts 14:19}But Jews came from Antioch and Iconium, and having persuaded the crowds, they stoned Paul and dragged him out of the city, supposing that he was dead.

[Gorka]

8 hours ago, Clevfan4life said:

i was raised catholic and never heard a breath of this rubbish but ill take ur word for it that its in there. 

Do a thought experiment...if u were an astronaut sitting on mars right now, heavens still "up"? This is the classic fallacy of primate thinking. That which is "higher" than us, a concept i have "zero" issue with btw im not an atheist.....is somehow "physically" above us as well. And people dont think allowing such nonsensical thought is a big deal but it absolutely is. Its the sole reason people many generations ago got duped into the gandalf sky wizard horseshit mythology. 

There are no x,y,z or cartesian coordinates to heaven and theres some bearded old white ngr in the sky waiting for u. And if u do find urself one day before something like that...take care because ur standing before the "great liar".

But what you say would only be said by an atheist.

Atheists do not believe in the existence of God or gods period.

There are no gray areas or exceptions that would exclude you so don't even try.

[jbluhm86]

1 hour ago, Gorka said:

But what you say would only be said by an atheist.

Atheists do not believe in the existence of God or gods period.

There are no gray areas or exceptions that would exclude you so don't even try.

Some atheists, it's true. I believe that's more of the antitheist-bent to say they are opposed to the belief in the existence of God/gods.

However, being an atheist isn't really a "belief" in anything; i.e. there's no such thing as a "non-alchemist", there's just a chemist, or no such thing as a "non-astrologer", there's just an astronomer. Atheism arises once one rejects the notion of basing things like ideals of morality and governance upon theistic God/gods on bad or no evidence. 

[TexasAg1969]

2 hours ago, jbluhm86 said:

Some atheists, it's true. I believe that's more of the antitheist-bent to say they are opposed to the belief in the existence of God/gods.

However, being an atheist isn't really a "belief" in anything; i.e. there's no such thing as a "non-alchemist", there's just a chemist, or no such thing as a "non-astrologer", there's just an astronomer. Atheism arises once one rejects the notion of basing things like ideals of morality and governance upon theistic God/gods on bad or no evidence. 

Here's a good question. Can you get to an afterlife without being caught up in a lot of the "nonsense" that is a part of many Christian sects?

[Westside Steve]

1 hour ago, TexasAg1969 said:

Here's a good question. Can you get to an afterlife without being caught up in a lot of the "nonsense" that is a part of many Christian sects?

Here's another question. Can you make a good argument that the afterlife is anything other than nonsense no matter how you get to it?

Does your bitterness about Christianity carry over to all the other faiths in the world that believe in a soul oh, afterlife or reincarnation?

 

WSS

[TexasAg1969]

1 hour ago, Westside Steve said:

Here's another question. Can you make a good argument that the afterlife is anything other than nonsense no matter how you get to it?

Does your bitterness about Christianity carry over to all the other faiths in the world that believe in a soul oh, afterlife or reincarnation?

 

WSS

Bitterness? I don't think that is the right word. It's more like smiling about how ridiculously away from Jesus it gets with every sect having their own special "brand". It's more like incredulous from the root word credible. That doesn't mean I don't buy the heart of it, because I do. And that is the opposite of bitterness. As to the afterlife, my grandmother promised me on her deathbed she would be there when it was my turn. I believe that more than any religion. She was Catholic and I was raised Protestant. That made no difference to her. She didn't "buy" the Catholic doctrine of not getting to heaven if you were not of the one true faith, but she was the most spiritual, accepting person I have ever known.

[Westside Steve]

19 minutes ago, TexasAg1969 said:

Bitterness? I don't think that is the right word. It's more like smiling about how ridiculously away from Jesus it gets with every sect having their own special "brand". It's more like incredulous from the root word credible. That doesn't mean I don't buy the heart of it, because I do. And that is the opposite of bitterness. As to the afterlife, my grandmother promised me on her deathbed she would be there when it was my turn. I believe that more than any religion. She was Catholic and I was raised Protestant. That made no difference to her. She didn't "buy" the Catholic doctrine of not getting to heaven if you were not of the one true faith, but she was the most spiritual, accepting person I have ever known.

I think bitterness is a good enough term, use the word nonsense which I think was pretty condescending. But in my opinion how somebody is raised and what somebody believes are two different things. People who have a religious epiphany tend to be stronger in their faith the people who were just raised around it in a generic fashion like I was. My family was by no means devout but I went to church when I was a kid and many of my friends went to that church. So we hung around and talked about the Beatles more than we did pray. Also as kids we knew we were different then Methodist or Presbyterian or Catholics but we weren't exactly sure why. But isn't that one of the bases of faith? To think that your path is the right one? If not, why bother?

WSS

 

[TexasAg1969]

Maybe you like the word, but I feel none of it at all. I just happen to think all sects have a certain amount of individual ritual passed on that have nothing to do with the core of the belief. That doesn't make me bitter in the least. Credible is still my measure. But I'm not bitter about someone who believes something in their religion that I don't fined passes my own credible test. I just don't have to believe it myself.

[Westside Steve]

5 minutes ago, TexasAg1969 said:

Maybe you like the word, but I feel none of it at all. I just happen to think all sects have a certain amount of individual ritual passed on that have nothing to do with the core of the belief. That doesn't make me bitter in the least. Credible is still my measure. But I'm not bitter about someone who believes something in their religion that I don't fined passes my own credible test. I just don't have to believe it myself.

I think you would be hard-pressed to make a case for credibility as to whether or not good and evil even exist.

WSS

[TexasAg1969]

12 minutes ago, Westside Steve said:

I think you would be hard-pressed to make a case for credibility as to whether or not good and evil even exist.

WSS

So what are your thoughts on that Steve?

[Westside Steve]

2 minutes ago, TexasAg1969 said:

So what are your thoughts on that Steve?

Personally I think religion politics and morality her along the same lines has dr. Morrow trying to turn animals into human beings in the House of Pain. 

If somebody actually believes in Christianity they believe that whatever suffering they put up with here on Earth will be rewarded later.

That should make your stay on Earth a little bit easier.

We all have our own ideas of Good and Evil but when we try to relate those to the Natural order in the wild?

WSS

[DieHardBrownsFan]

I'd say evil is exterminating millions of people for no reason other than they are jews or mentally disabled or Slavic/inferior.  I'd say good is helping those who can't help themselves and treating people with respect and dignity.  Pretty clear difference.

[LogicIsForSquares]

10 hours ago, OldBrownsFan said:

Paul didn't use any psychedelic drugs but he was likely "stoned" (literally) when he spoke of being taken up to the third heaven.

.

Paul Stoned at Lystra

^{Acts 14:19}But Jews came from Antioch and Iconium, and having persuaded the crowds, they stoned Paul and dragged him out of the city, supposing that he was dead.

So they recorded the words of a guy who took some rock fastballs to the noggin and recorded it as fact?

[TexasAg1969]

In the words of Bob Dylan, "Everybody must get stoned!"🤗

[Westside Steve]

2 hours ago, DieHardBrownsFan said:

I'd say evil is exterminating millions of people for no reason other than they are jews or mentally disabled or Slavic/inferior.  I'd say good is helping those who can't help themselves and treating people with respect and dignity.  Pretty clear difference.

Of course that's something that we would probably all say. But when you think of the natural order of the world is it evil when seagulls take over the puffins feeding area? Is it evil when lions chase down other animals for food?

WSS

[DieHardBrownsFan]

Thats merely survival.  Hunting to survive.  

[Westside Steve]

20 minutes ago, DieHardBrownsFan said:

Thats merely survival.  Hunting to survive.  

If you think about it my friend it's not much different than humans taking over territories. Conquering race after conquering race.

WSS

[OldBrownsFan]

2 hours ago, LogicIsForSquares said:

So they recorded the words of a guy who took some rock fastballs to the noggin and recorded it as fact?

Paul's experience seems similar to others who had near death experiences except for some who had a different experience: