Flags/Penalties

[onkyoreceiver]

The fucking point of it is, if you are going to call shit this tight on us, then how in the FUCK is that hold/black in the back NOT CALLED?

4 hours ago, SdBacker80 said:

Here we CLEARLY have a block in the back...and then...

[onkyoreceiver]

3 hours ago, SdBacker80 said:

...a fucking blatant hold on the SAME PLAY by the SAME PLAYER.  There should have been TWO FOULS on this play.

[gumby73]

Freddie now cannot put the toothpaste back in the tube.. He pronounced that his team bonded together in the inter squad week with the Colts..We opened with the Skins with 6 flags(gassers after own teammates fight at practice)..Day 1 with Colts, was a clean scrimmage Draw/media...Day 2, most media declared us as the winner..but with many player dust-ups where taking swings was the norm..Friday we were off, when Freddie declares boxing day as teams bonding day. Saturday Game day Colts PS3-13 flags.. after Colts game, the touch the end zone wall laps started at practice..TB-8 flags..Lions-10 flags..Titans 20 with 2 declined=18...   bonding date? like we need more targets to shoot at on this team.. 🤫 (zip it) 

[onkyoreceiver]

Yes, we made a lot of mistakes and didn't do enough to win.  However, you will NEVER convince me that refs did not intend to throw the game to the Titans anyway they could.  18-5 - they weren't calling SHIT on the Titans.  How about a fucking personal foul on the cat that fucking KNOCKED ROBINSON TO THE GROUND well after the whistle, before he instinctively defended himself with a pretty harmless kick as he was falling, a kick that couldn't have hurt a fucking fly (wasn't like he was fully upright and reared the fuck back or something)?  Does anyone have a smart reply as to why that wasn't called?  Why?

[PoeticG]

6 minutes ago, onkyoreceiver said:

Yes, we made a lot of mistakes and didn't do enough to win.  However, you will NEVER convince me that refs did not intend to throw the game to the Titans anyway they could.  18-5 - they weren't calling SHIT on the Titans.  How about a fucking personal foul on the cat that fucking KNOCKED ROBINSON TO THE GROUND well after the whistle, before he instinctively defended himself with a pretty harmless kick as he was falling, a kick that couldn't have hurt a fucking fly (wasn't like he was fully upright and reared the fuck back or something)?  Does anyone have a smart reply as to why that wasn't called?  Why?

Thank you! 

I swear I hear so many times that you can't blame the refs for a loss. Like it's somehow some macho card or something. It's really not. It has to do with the fact that there is LITERALLY a holding call on every fucking play in every fucking game, all day, every day. It's when only one team is penalized and put into 2nd down and 20 situations time after time when the shit is ridiculous. The refs have single handedly cost the browns more wins than any team we've faced over the past 10 years. The shit gets old. 

 

[hoorta]

4 hours ago, TypicalBrowns50 said:

I’m talking the team and the discipline, which Is up to kitchens. He’s like Mike Pettine with more personality. He showed yesterday he hasn’t done anything for the culture or mentality of the team. His playcalling regressed big time, doing the opposite of last year, which is just brutal to see in action. Yesterday was brutal man. Idk how else to say it. A coach that knows what he is doing doesn’t let something like that happen yesterday 

It's  one regular  season game, and some  guys already  have the pitchforks out. 

[Dutch Oven]

I guess blaming the refs is easier on the psyche than admitting that your favorite team laid an enormous egg. 

[Frank Ryan’s Ghost]

While it’s true that this is only one game and the disaster that happened Sunday may never happen the rest of the year, it was still a disturbing opening game. Hopefully, what we saw is not a glimpse of what we will see for the rest of the year.  

I don’t know what happened after the Browns’ first offensive series but their play all went down hill afterwards.  Aside from the undisciplined play and stupid repetitive penalties, I was most disappointed by the performance of the offensive line.  Mayfield was harassed on almost every pass play. For a team with a rising stars in Baker and Chubb and two bonafide supper star receivers  in Jarvis and Odell, the offensive line has to play much better from here on out or the discontent will escalate. 

[mjp28]

10 minutes ago, Dutch Oven said:

I guess blaming the refs is easier on the psyche than admitting that your favorite team laid an enormous egg. 

Our BROWNIES got sucked into the enormous hype and media exposure and outside of the first rather exciting drive just lost contact with the mission that afternoon.

I guess we can hold off on printing Super Bowl 54 tickets just yet.

GO BROWNS, I expect some kind of attitude correction in the big apple on MNF.

[mjp28]

6 hours ago, hoorta said:

It's  one regular  season game, and some  guys already  have the pitchforks out. 

 

[TexasAg1969]

6 hours ago, hoorta said:

It's  one regular  season game, and some  guys already  have the pitchforks out. 

I wouldn't be riding anyone out of town on a rail with tar and feathers, but I'd sit a few players on the bench the first full quarter starting with Garrett so the team understands that even with a "star", disciple in football is far more important to the team than any one man.

[jrb12711]

12 hours ago, bjh2130 said:

They sure did but it was textbook blocking.  He had his hands on the breastplate of the shoulderpads.

Which is why I was going ballistic in the game thread. I'm sitting there watching the Saints game and watching guys block just like this and wow! no flag. It made me so frustrated I legit turned the game off.

The play being described is a textbook armbar holding call. It wouldn't make me nearly as mad if they ref crew weren't calling below average at best (described above) holds against the Browns all afternoon. I've said 10 times we deserved the loss, but the ref crew was absolute garbage. Gene on the Henry TD play said something along the lines of "while despite that pretty apparent hold, they can't review this part of the play". If the dude whose job it is to defend the referees makes that statement, it was a seriously blown call.

[SdBacker80]

9 hours ago, onkyoreceiver said:

Yes, we made a lot of mistakes and didn't do enough to win.  However, you will NEVER convince me that refs did not intend to throw the game to the Titans anyway they could.  18-5 - they weren't calling SHIT on the Titans.  How about a fucking personal foul on the cat that fucking KNOCKED ROBINSON TO THE GROUND well after the whistle, before he instinctively defended himself with a pretty harmless kick as he was falling, a kick that couldn't have hurt a fucking fly (wasn't like he was fully upright and reared the fuck back or something)?  Does anyone have a smart reply as to why that wasn't called?  Why?

90% of the time they miss the action that precedes the personal foul.  It doesn’t matter if it’s the Pats, Titans, Ravens whatever. Pro...College...HS.  Most coaches will tell you don’t let them bait you.  The Titans brought it to us and we reacted negatively.  So Kitchens should say we need to be smarter.

 

i have nothing for the missed block in the back, phantom holds, OBJ PI where the defender was handsy all down the field.  You hope at the end of the year they even out. We didn't get many 50/50 benefit of the doubt call or no calls this game. 

[Gunz41]

Let's just ask this question, exactly how many of these flags did people pointing them out see at the split second, not with replay, and how many were in the angle of the official?

I've coached a long time, know the rules very well, know some rules that most people don't know existed, and I don't know as much as officials. 

But heck, go try it out for yourself. Go to a football game or practice, be at the same level as the game, and watch multiple things/players all at the same time. And then see if you get it right 100% of the time. 

I don't understand why people expect these guys (and a couple gals) to be perfect, to see everything they see, but wouldn't expect themselves to be perfect in their job. 

But people here are actually taking it further. Sure they missed calls, but talking about them actually cheating. Absolutely ridiculous.

I forgot, those officials couldn't block, threw 3 INTs, and lost their cool. 

Many times I have disagreed with a call coaching. And a lot of the time I was correct. And even more when breaking down film I have seen things I thought was obvious that should have been called. They weren't trying to make me lose, they missed it. 

 

As for the still shots here, after I seen a different view I said the call was missed, but a still shot can be frozen to make it look worse. On the Henry TD, the block started on side/a bit in front from the video I saw. The defender TURNED to try and get loose, which is how you see him directly in his back. And the guys down field means ZERO. One, the pass was BEHIND the LOS, and 2 at the time the ball hits his hands they are WITHIN a yard of LOS, way within a yard. 

Again, there were a few plays I saw that were incorrect, a few that I don't think should have been thrown, but to call them cheaters is ridiculous, and to defend a guy who kicks someone is crazy. And to actually blame the officials for a 30 point loss and make it seem like they are the ones who made the Browns lose and they cheated is so out there that it is crazy

[Vambo]

How many of the Browns’ 18 penalties against the Titans were from poor technique or lack of discipline?

By Tim Bielik, cleveland.com | Posted September 10, 2019 at 11:49 AM

 

https://expo.cleveland.com/sports/g66l-2019/09/750177e01461/how-many-of-the-browns-18-penalties-against-the-titans-were-from-poor-technique-or-lack-of-discipline.html

 

 

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Freddie Kitchens' team committed 18 penalties on Sunday as the Browns lost by 30 to the Titans. (John Kuntz, cleveland.com)

 

CLEVELAND, Ohio — The Browns’ 30-point home loss to the Titans on Sunday was marred by the massive amount of penalties they took.

In total, the Browns committed 18 for 182 yards. It wasn’t even the most the Browns have made in a game. But that’s still way too many for one team to commit.

So the question when looking back at each of them is how many of them were because a player used poor technique? And how many times did the Browns lose their discipline at the moment.

Here’s a look back at all 18 penalties.

 

1. Blindside block on Greg Robinson, 12:14 in first quarter

Verdict: Bad technique

This is a new rule that the NFL instituted for this season, saying that blocks made by a player either running toward or parallel to his end line and leading with his helmet, forearm or shoulder are considered illegal. While Robinson did get Titans corner Malcolm Butler on the side, he led with his head and shoulder and was running in a direction towards his end zone. By the rule, the call was correct.

 

 

2. Roughing the passer on Jordan Whitehead, 10:04 in first quarter

Verdict: Lack of discipline 

Nearly all roughing the passer penalties are results of players going too hard at the quarterback. Whitehead only clipped Marcus Mariota shortly after the throw. But the referees felt he didn’t pull up in time, resulting in the flag.

 

 

3. Illegal double-team block on D’Ernest Johnson, 6:36 in first quarter

Verdict: Bad technique

Johnson came in to block a player that was already being blocked on the return. By the definition of the rule, the block was illegal and it cost them 10 yards.

 

 

4. Unnecessary roughness on Myles Garrett, 14:11 in second quarter

Verdict: Lack of discipline

Garrett threw a one-handed shove at the face of Delanie Walker. That’s something refs will call every time.

 

 

5. Holding on Damarious Randall, 13:11 in second quarter

Verdict: Bad technique 

This one was a very ticky-tack call against Randall because he got to Adam Humphries just a split-second too early. It probably could have been let go. But Randall got flagged, which extended the Titans’ drive.

 

 

 

 

6. Roughing the passer on Sheldon Richardson, 11:08 in second quarter

Verdict: Lack of discipline

This was a clear penalty by Richardson as he shoved Mariota to the ground after he let the ball go. He made it an easy call. Denzel Ward was also called for holding, but the Richardson penalty was the one that the Titans accepted.

 

 

 

7. Neutral zone infraction on Sheldon Richardson, 10:18 in second quarter

Verdict: Lack of discipline

Richardson jumped too early, giving the Titans a free first down on the way to a touchdown.

 

 

8. Disqualification on Greg Robinson, 5:03 in second quarter

Verdict: Lack of discipline

Kicking Kenny Vaccaro in the head is an obvious disqualification and just a lack of composure from Robinson, who claimed on Monday that he didn’t mean to kick Vaccaro.

 

 

 

9. False start on Chris Hubbard, 1:47 left in second quarter

Verdict: Lack of discipline

Moving for the snap is obviously a mental lapse that can simple be fixed by understanding the cadence.

 

 

10. Pass interference on Odell Beckham Jr., :21 in second quarter

Verdict: Bad technique

Beckham got open with the help of a push-off, which obviously isn’t allowed and took a crucial chance at points off the board in the final seconds of the half.

 

 

11. Holding on Chris Hubbard, 10:14 in third quarter

Verdict: Bad technique

Hubbard, who moved to left tackle after Robinson’s ejection, clearly gets his left hand on the outside right shoulder of the defender, pulling him into the middle of the play. It’s a textbook holding call and was the third penalty called on a Browns offensive tackle.

 

 

 

12. Holding on Greedy Williams, 5:58 in third quarter

Verdict: Bad technique

Williams essentially tackled the Titans’ gunner just before the punt was kicked off. It’s something that can be coached out of a player. Tavierre Thomas was also flagged for illegal hands to the face on the same play.

 

 

13. False start on Justin McCray, 5:52 in third quarter

Verdict: Lack of discipline

Again, false starts are just lapses in concentration and focusing too much on what the defense is doing.

 

 

 

 

14. Holding on Demetrius Harris, 5:52 in third quarter

Verdict: Bad technique

Harris starts the play by extending his left arm to the outside, which is just bad technique. That’s something refs are looking for every time from offensive linemen and tight ends.

 

 

15. Holding on Demetrius Harris, 15:00 in fourth quarter

Verdict: Bad technique

Harris clearly grabs a hold of the defender’s jersey, drawing the easy flag from the refs.

 

16. Holding on Denzel Ward, 13:05 in fourth quarter

Verdict: Bad technique

Ward is lined up here in the slot against Corey Davis. He clearly has his left hand on the right shoulder of Davis, holding him and taking him out of the play. The Titans got a first down anyway on the Marcus Mariota scramble. But even if it didn’t, Tennessee would have still gotten the first down.

 

 

 

17. Holding on Chris Hubbard, 8:43 in fourth quarter

Verdict: Bad technique

Hubbard got beat right off the snap and then grabbed the defender on his inside shoulder for his third penalty of the afternoon.

 

 

18. Unsportsmanlike conduct on Devaroe Lawrence, 3:11 in fourth quarter

Verdict: Lack of discipline

Lawrence clearly said something to the official to draw the penalty. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Conclusion

Bad technique penalties: 10

Lack of discipline penalties: 8

There clearly is a lot of work to do in terms of discipline for the Browns. They roughed the quarterback twice and committed multiple dead-ball fouls, including Robinson’s ejection and Garrett smacking Walker in the face.

But of course, there were plenty of penalties that were also due to poor technique. That happens often in the first game and can certainly be corrected in the film room.

Ten penalties alone is considered a bad game. But as technique gets refined during the season, that number should go down. It comes down to the penalties due to lack of discipline that can hurt a team most.

[SdBacker80]

1 hour ago, Gunz41 said:

Let's just ask this question, exactly how many of these flags did people pointing them out see at the split second, not with replay, and how many were in the angle of the official?

I've coached a long time, know the rules very well, know some rules that most people don't know existed, and I don't know as much as officials. 

But heck, go try it out for yourself. Go to a football game or practice, be at the same level as the game, and watch multiple things/players all at the same time. And then see if you get it right 100% of the time. 

I don't understand why people expect these guys (and a couple gals) to be perfect, to see everything they see, but wouldn't expect themselves to be perfect in their job. 

But people here are actually taking it further. Sure they missed calls, but talking about them actually cheating. Absolutely ridiculous.

I forgot, those officials couldn't block, threw 3 INTs, and lost their cool. 

Many times I have disagreed with a call coaching. And a lot of the time I was correct. And even more when breaking down film I have seen things I thought was obvious that should have been called. They weren't trying to make me lose, they missed it. 

 

As for the still shots here, after I seen a different view I said the call was missed, but a still shot can be frozen to make it look worse. On the Henry TD, the block started on side/a bit in front from the video I saw. The defender TURNED to try and get loose, which is how you see him directly in his back. And the guys down field means ZERO. One, the pass was BEHIND the LOS, and 2 at the time the ball hits his hands they are WITHIN a yard of LOS, way within a yard. 

Again, there were a few plays I saw that were incorrect, a few that I don't think should have been thrown, but to call them cheaters is ridiculous, and to defend a guy who kicks someone is crazy. And to actually blame the officials for a 30 point loss and make it seem like they are the ones who made the Browns lose and they cheated is so out there that it is crazy

Played/Coached/currently Analyze rules and regs outside of sports for a living - most of the folks on here have a sense of things.  I have to admit The Henry catch and run- Looked more obvious in real time. Aside from first drive catch that went to the doorstep of the goal line It was loudest yell of the game from me.  When you freeze it you see his head on the back shoulder and hand on his back and his momentum driving the tackler into the ground-  what else is needed?  

The Browns defender beats the titan blocker to the spot, the defender actually over pursues looks like he turns and  breaks down to make a tackle gets hit from Side/back with defenders head on back and hand on back finishing the block to the ground.  

I don’t know if he makes  the tackle he probably over-pursued the play but the blocker clearly had bad technique and couldn’t block properly because he was beaten to the spot by the defender.  

The personal foul garbage is all on the Browns. The holds most of those are called a few were ticky tack variety.  The PI was a bang bang play with defender arriving slightly early.  I don’t blame the ref you just hope we are on other end of it next time.  I didnt see the Browns on the good side of many calls though on Sunday. 

I’m not yelling conspiracy or they have out for us...but the play I highlighted above was pretty significant given the the flag happy nature the refs had all game.  How it was not considered a penalty was surprising given the way the yellow flags were thrown

[jrb12711]

https://www.cleveland.com/browns/2019/09/devaroe-lawrence-cleveland-browns.html

"Lawrence told Scott Petrak of the Elyria Chronicle-Telegram that the official said to him “watch where the f——you’re going.’’

Neat! Nothing to see here though...

[Gunz41]

1 hour ago, SdBacker80 said:

Played/Coached/currently Analyze rules and regs outside of sports for a living - most of the folks on here have a sense of things.  I have to admit The Henry catch and run- Looked more obvious in real time. Aside from first drive catch that went to the doorstep of the goal line It was loudest yell of the game from me.  When you freeze it you see his head on the back shoulder and hand on his back and his momentum driving the tackler into the ground-  what else is needed?  

The Browns defender beats the titan blocker to the spot, the defender actually over pursues looks like he turns and  breaks down to make a tackle gets hit from Side/back with defenders head on back and hand on back finishing the block to the ground.  

I don’t know if he makes  the tackle he probably over-pursued the play but the blocker clearly had bad technique and couldn’t block properly because he was beaten to the spot by the defender.  

The personal foul garbage is all on the Browns. The holds most of those are called a few were ticky tack variety.  The PI was a bang bang play with defender arriving slightly early.  I don’t blame the ref you just hope we are on other end of it next time.  I didnt see the Browns on the good side of many calls though on Sunday. 

I’m not yelling conspiracy or they have out for us...but the play I highlighted above was pretty significant given the the flag happy nature the refs had all game.  How it was not considered a penalty was surprising given the way the yellow flags were thrown

After you posted the other view did I not say that it should have been called? That doesn't change the fact that at the moment of contact he was NOT blocking him in the back, and that the blocking in back portion of it appears to be a result of the defenders action to try and get away. But it also should have been called back. And the part about the still shots wasn't about the hook and hold, as I already said that should have been thrown, it's the part of linemen down field, when A. There is no such thing on a pass behind LOS and B. The still shot is after he has caught the ball and started to run. And that sure with the benefit of replay and still shots you can find things, yet the guys on the field are expected to be right 100% of the time without it, while watching multiple things at eye level. 

And I don't agree with you that most people have a good sense of things. It hasn't been just this game, but others that everyone is out to get the Browns, every call (not the obvious ones) shouldn't have been called, etc. You actually have people on here defending Robinson and saying that the refs cheated. I don't think that is good sense.

Since you said coached/analyze rules you are probably like me and view flags and stuff without any kind of bias whatsoever. My whole point in bringing it up wasn't to say that there couldn't have been a blown call, but to show that there were far more that were correct than not, and it wasn't some kind of conspiracy.

[jrb12711]

27 minutes ago, Gunz41 said:

Since you said coached/analyze rules you are probably like me and view flags and stuff without any kind of bias whatsoever. My whole point in bringing it up wasn't to say that there couldn't have been a blown call, but to show that there were far more that were correct than not, and it wasn't some kind of conspiracy.

I appreciate your comments, always great to have a good banter. I guess my whole thing is this, and I'm not sure anyone can really "deny" this. If you want to call the game at the level of "ticky-tacky" they did Sunday, it's gotta be both ways. If Robinson's block was illegal, so was the one that led to the Henry TD. If you're calling the holds they were calling, you need to call hands to the face/holding when Garrett's helmet is literally 1/2 way off his head. If this game was even something like 18 penalties to say 10, I'd be willing to fall on the sword. It's just a very tough pill to swallow when that's not the case.

I absolutely don't think for a second there's a "conspiracy" against teams. But I do absolutely feel the NFL has a unique problem and the methods used to correct them aren't there. Frankly, I think the solution is to make the game "easier" to officiate, save safety issues. 

[medicineman]

20 hours ago, SdBacker80 said:

We lost we deserved to lose but they missed this call

They missed many calls, they had a hard on for us since after the first drive. They were dead set against us period. some were legit but many were ticky tack at best and they hardly called them for ANYTHING. It was not down the middle refs they made sure we didn't stand a chance, 18 penalties, 18? The refs should be fired as well 

[Tour2ma]

5 hours ago, Vambo said:

Conclusion

Bad technique penalties: 10

Lack of discipline penalties: 8

I was just going to post this...

"After further review...." they only questioned one call.

[Orion]

Thanks for merging my thread with this one as I did not see this one.

[PoeticG]

I'd like to see the breakdown on NON-CALLED Penalties committed by the Titans. I'm sure there were about 20 as well, period. 

[onkyoreceiver]

2 hours ago, PoeticG said:

I'd like to see the breakdown on NON-CALLED Penalties committed by the Titans. I'm sure there were about 20 as well, period. 

This.

[PoeticG]

This is the last thing I'm going to say about the penalties and the Robinson "kick"- 

Penalty's cost us this game. We lost solely because of the penalties. Either self inflicted or gifted by the refs, we can't have them if we want to be who we think we are. Gotta clean it up.

- And why the hell is KENNY FUCKING VACCARRO'S helmet anywhere near Greg Robinson's feet as he's falling down after the play is over. Kenny's a bitch, he deserved it.

[Dutch Oven]

It's Wednesday and people are still convincing themselves that the refs were to blame for the Browns loss.

This isn't behavior expected from the Toughest Fans in Football. 

[Gunz41]

13 hours ago, PoeticG said:

This is the last thing I'm going to say about the penalties and the Robinson "kick"- 

Penalty's cost us this game. We lost solely because of the penalties. Either self inflicted or gifted by the refs, we can't have them if we want to be who we think we are. Gotta clean it up.

- And why the hell is KENNY FUCKING VACCARRO'S helmet anywhere near Greg Robinson's feet as he's falling down after the play is over. Kenny's a bitch, he deserved it.

This is one of the most asinine things I've ever seen.

Lets go ahead and excuse his behavior so that we can excuse his behavior.

And you have shown your ability to judge someone (McCoy, Hogan, etc), I would bet that "bi*ch" would make you his

[Vambo]

 

I don't see any reason he had to kick at the guy.

[gumby73]

21 minutes ago, Vambo said:

I don't see any reason he had to kick at the guy.

cause he missed with his left & landed with his right..if we owned a back-up Tackle? would Freddie suspend him another 1 Game? I really don't care who pushed him over before or after the whistle..that's class-less browns football..am not believing the Robbie words of "it looks a lot worse than it really was".. but the NFL did 🤫

[Orion]

  17 hours ago, PoeticG said:

This is the last thing I'm going to say about the penalties and the Robinson "kick"- 

Penalty's cost us this game. We lost solely because of the penalties. Either self inflicted or gifted by the refs, we can't have them if we want to be who we think we are. Gotta clean it up.

- And why the hell is KENNY FUCKING VACCARRO'S helmet anywhere near Greg Robinson's feet as he's falling down after the play is over. Kenny's a bitch, he deserved it.

4 hours ago, Gunz41 said:

This is one of the most asinine things I've ever seen.

 

Actually, it's not.

I agree that we probably lost because of the penalties.   But it's not the fault of the refs.