So whats wrong with Baker?

[jiggins7919]

13 minutes ago, Dutch Oven said:

If this is true, that a missed XP caused the Browns to spiral out of control, then this team is one mentally-weak, fragile group. 

I mean, obviously I don't KNOW that, but up to that point we looked like the definition of ass-kickers. Remember that Baltimore game a few years back when we jumped all over them, Corey Coleman actually had a great game, and we got up like 20-0, but missed the last XP and it went to crap? It might seem ridiculous, but those missed XPs kind of deflate the team I think. 

[Icecube]

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?tabSeq=0&statisticCategory=PASSING&conference=null&season=2019&seasonType=REG&d-447263-s=PASSING_YARDS&d-447263-o=2&d-447263-n=1

 

Look how bad he is actually playing: 56% pass completion, 61 QB rating. Duck from Pitt - the undrafted rookie - has superior #'s: 75%, 91 rating. Come on. Baker was the 1st pick of the entire draft, and a 56% is what he brings you?

[calfoxwc]

think more comprehensively, grasshopper. The Browns oline has struggled at both tackle spots. HIggins, Calloway and Njoku

have been out. After last year, Baker is the object of serious defensive attention. It's more complicated that just stats of the qb.

[Tour2ma]

Interesting article, h... nice OP... but I still think the article is significantly over-complicating things.

Look at it's play one and you see from the endzone cam that Baker's sight line gets cut off... he bales looking for lanes he can see thru and then throw thru. And once he finds one then he throws a strike to RSJ.

This is happening a lot between the OTs and the difference there? No Zeitler...

Where last year there were clear site/throw lanes big enough to see multiple WR strides... now there are slits producing flashes... and inaccurate throws. Sunday's last throw behind Hilliard is Exhibit A.

[PoeticG]

What if Baker's tipped passes or bobbled passes are caught? How many touchdowns, yards, first downs and interceptions change numbers? Anybody care enough to look into this or are we just content to keep bitching about QBs? Don't speak another QB debacle into place or talk yourselves into more gloom and doom. Baker is good. The Browns are good. We steal one back from the Patriots and clean up against the Broncos and we're back to 4-4 and looking WHITE HOT with Hunt and Njoku returning and entering the back nine. It's nut up or shut up time.

[PoeticG]

What wrong with Baker? How about missing this- 

 

[Dutch Oven]

Ironically enough, Baker is missing Njoku because he threw a high pass that got Njoku laid out. 

[Icecube]

20 minutes ago, Dutch Oven said:

Ironically enough, Baker is missing Njoku because he threw a high pass that got Njoku laid out. 

Ouch. 

[jiggins7919]

27 minutes ago, Dutch Oven said:

Ironically enough, Baker is missing Njoku because he threw a high pass that got Njoku laid out. 

After missing him originally over the middle. 

Here's the one stat that REALLY scares me regarding Baker, and I don't have the exact numbers, but I have the gist (from Browns Daily). From a clean pocket with no pressure, Baker was around 58%, and he was only pressured on something like 25% of his drop backs. So if you want to blame the OL still, you better think twice. Baker didn't get sacked last game and still couldn't deliver the goods far too often. I don't have the stat in front of me, but last year Baker FEASTED on clean pockets and destroyed people. And did I mention he doesn't throw it deep still? Go watch that 4th and 7 to Landry. Watch how wide open OBJ is for the touchdown. It's nauseating. No QB hits them all, but Jesus man. OBJ used to score touchdowns...with Eli Manning! 

[Gorka]

On ‎10‎/‎13‎/‎2019 at 4:55 PM, jbluhm86 said:

Absolutely. Excessive penalties is a discipline problem, and the buck stops at the coaching on that one. 

For all of the great moves Dorsey and Co. have made so far here in Cleveland, the hiring of Kitchens as HC might be a huge enough blunder to cancel out those earlier good moves 

I hear that time and time again, and never understood it.  What is it exactly that Kitchens should be doing? What is the training method/process used to train players not to commit penalties? You're the coach, what would you do?

Yell at them?

Yell at them louder?

Bench them if they commit a penalty?

Fine them?

My belief is Belicheck doesn't need to discipline his team in order to commit few penalties. The players they pick happen to be self disciplined. By the time a player reaches the pro level he should already be disciplined in the game.

[Icecube]

5 minutes ago, jiggins7919 said:

After missing him originally over the middle. 

Here's the one stat that REALLY scares me regarding Baker, and I don't have the exact numbers, but I have the gist (from Browns Daily). From a clean pocket with no pressure, Baker was around 58%, and he was only pressured on something like 25% of his drop backs. So if you want to blame the OL still, you better think twice. Baker didn't get sacked last game and still couldn't deliver the goods far too often. I don't have the stat in front of me, but last year Baker FEASTED on clean pockets and destroyed people. And did I mention he doesn't throw it deep still? Go watch that 4th and 7 to Landry. Watch how wide open OBJ is for the touchdown. It's nauseating. No QB hits them all, but Jesus man. OBJ used to score touchdowns...with Eli Manning! 

Those are compelling points. Obviously, something isn't clicking. Coaching? 

[mjp28]

35 minutes ago, Dutch Oven said:

Ironically enough, Baker is missing Njoku because he threw a high pass that got Njoku laid out. 

That is ironic.

The real answer of what is wrong with the Browns and Mayfield is a combination of several factors, a sort of perfect storm that all came together in the first six weeks of this season starting with the somewhat out of control super hype on the Superbowl bound Browns.

They all forgot that you have to get into the playoffs first!  Anyone remember all of this talk?

[PoeticG]

38 minutes ago, Dutch Oven said:

Ironically enough, Baker is missing Njoku because he threw a high pass that got Njoku laid out. 

...and Njoku's injury had nothing to do with that piece of shit Jet's player undercutting Njoku before the ball touches his hands? Actually should have been pass interference and unsportsmanlike conduct- that was as close to a "Saint's bounty play" as I've seen since James Harrison. 

 

[Icecube]

On 10/14/2019 at 10:50 PM, jiggins7919 said:

. I mean we couldn't force a fart without changing our underwear, and that kick

[PoeticG]

Yep, 100% 

[jiggins7919]

7 minutes ago, Icecube said:

Those are compelling points. Obviously, something isn't clicking. Coaching? 

QB coach said a lot of it is coaches having tape on Baker, some of it has been mechanics (his Landry end zone pick had poor footwork), and some of it has been OL and poor play calling. From what I understand, we had an explosive offense in training camp on several days. We saw the beginning of that Sunday, but the turnovers crushed the dream. This is why so many people expect us to go on a winning streak...we're somewhat close. I mean, we took one of the top 3 teams down to the wire, and likely should have beaten them. But it drives you crazy watching a blocked punt, end zone turnovers, fumbles, and deflection INTs. You don't see that shit happening to the Seahawks, do you? 

We're close, but I'm not sure we'll be able to make a run. You don't generally find solace in Foxboro, and the weather will turn soon, making it harder to pass. You know what we effing need? To force some freaking TURNOVERS. A pick 6, fumble return for score, strip sacks, whatever. We hardly cause ANY turnovers and it's crushing us. Perhaps Denzel and Greedy will remedy the situation. 

[mjp28]

Coaching + pass protection + too many penalties + easy dropped passes + "quarterback issues" + strange referees + who knows what else = 2-4 in a season that coulda been 4-2 maybe 5-1 or at least 3-3.

Now we take a week off and a decent nap and move on!

GO BROWNS, surprise us!   

[Icecube]

24 minutes ago, jiggins7919 said:

QB coach said a lot of it is coaches having tape on Baker, some of it has been mechanics (his Landry end zone pick had poor footwork), and some of it has been OL and poor play calling. From what I understand, we had an explosive offense in training camp on several days. We saw the beginning of that Sunday, but the turnovers crushed the dream. This is why so many people expect us to go on a winning streak...we're somewhat close. I mean, we took one of the top 3 teams down to the wire, and likely should have beaten them. But it drives you crazy watching a blocked punt, end zone turnovers, fumbles, and deflection INTs. You don't see that shit happening to the Seahawks, do you? 

We're close, but I'm not sure we'll be able to make a run. You don't generally find solace in Foxboro, and the weather will turn soon, making it harder to pass. You know what we effing need? To force some freaking TURNOVERS. A pick 6, fumble return for score, strip sacks, whatever. We hardly cause ANY turnovers and it's crushing us. Perhaps Denzel and Greedy will remedy the situation. 

It's really all in hand, IF they don't get rattled. So, a loss to NE is likely, but THEN all the DBs are back, and then ...Broncos, Bills, Steelers, Fins, Steelers...all winnable. Bills are tougher than most predicted, but they are limited on offense. If this team can limit dumb ass plays, they can win. 

[Icecube]

13 minutes ago, mjp28 said:

Coaching + pass protection + too many penalties + easy dropped passes + "quarterback issues" + strange referees + who knows what else = 2-4 in a season that coulda been 4-2 maybe 5-1 or at least 3-3.

Now we take a week off and a decent nap and move on!

GO BROWNS, surprise us!   

It's still early. It's still wide open in the AFCN (except for Cinci). Browns need to get straight. 

[mjp28]

18 minutes ago, Icecube said:

It's still early. It's still wide open in the AFCN (except for Cinci). Browns need to get straight. 

True.  Plus they still are in a pretty easy division -and- have one win versus the front runner.  

GO BROWNS, get into the playoffs and anything can happen, really it can.   

[Dutch Oven]

7 hours ago, PoeticG said:

...and Njoku's injury had nothing to do with that piece of shit Jet's player undercutting Njoku before the ball touches his hands? Actually should have been pass interference and unsportsmanlike conduct- that was as close to a "Saint's bounty play" as I've seen since James Harrison. 

 

All set up by yet another Baker air-mailed pass.

[TexasAg1969]

9 hours ago, mjp28 said:

True.  Plus they still are in a pretty easy division -and- have one win versus the front runner.  

GO BROWNS, get into the playoffs and anything can happen, really it can.   

FIFY 😜

[PoeticG]

9 hours ago, Dutch Oven said:

All set up by yet another Baker air-mailed pass.

Two things:

1) Baker threw that ball over the first defender, that was a perfect ball. Get your eyes checked. 

2) The ball wasn't as high as you make it out to be, Njoku could have caught that ball standing on his feet- He didn't need to leap for it. If he just keeps running it's a clean catch, he's going to get hit yeah, but the hit wouldn't have put him on IR. 

[dawg2fan]

On 10/13/2019 at 5:43 PM, BaconHound said:

That bomb was due to an offside call ala Aaron Rodgers.  Calls were bad but they scored 20 points in one quarter and 8 points in 3 quarters.  This is the same story, 2-4, going to be 2-5.  Maybe they get lucky on the back end of the schedule and get to 7-9, yay

The Steelers, Bills, and Patriots all have strong pass rushes.  Baker doesn't do very well against those teams.  That could be 4 losses.  My faith in this team is dwindling, hopefully we get Trent Williams as I have been hearing.

[Nero]

On 10/16/2019 at 1:14 PM, Dutch Oven said:

All set up by yet another Baker air-mailed pass.

 

18 hours ago, PoeticG said:

Two things:

1) Baker threw that ball over the first defender, that was a perfect ball. Get your eyes checked. 

2) The ball wasn't as high as you make it out to be, Njoku could have caught that ball standing on his feet- He didn't need to leap for it. If he just keeps running it's a clean catch, he's going to get hit yeah, but the hit wouldn't have put him on IR. 

After watching the replay in 0.25 speed... I'll give this one to Po. 

Was the pass a bit high? Yes, but the pass had to go over number 50. Njoku catches it with his hands in front of his chest. Even a bit lower. 

With his height, he could catch it with his hands fully extended upwards, but to secure the catch anyone would probably make a very small jump, to have your arms in a better position. 

Given the athletic freak Njoku is and his jump height, he used his skills to secure the ball wasn't high. He jumped way too much, but I can't blame him. Maybe I would do the same if I could jump that much. It's bad luck and a nasty hit by the DB.

[SdBacker80]

On 10/15/2019 at 8:25 PM, jiggins7919 said:

After missing him originally over the middle. 

Here's the one stat that REALLY scares me regarding Baker, and I don't have the exact numbers, but I have the gist (from Browns Daily). From a clean pocket with no pressure, Baker was around 58%, and he was only pressured on something like 25% of his drop backs. So if you want to blame the OL still, you better think twice. Baker didn't get sacked last game and still couldn't deliver the goods far too often. I don't have the stat in front of me, but last year Baker FEASTED on clean pockets and destroyed people. And did I mention he doesn't throw it deep still? Go watch that 4th and 7 to Landry. Watch how wide open OBJ is for the touchdown. It's nauseating. No QB hits them all, but Jesus man. OBJ used to score touchdowns...with Eli Manning! 

I think it was the Rams game I saw the lovely empty backfield set that I love and there were three of the laziest go routes I’ve seen on a 3rd and 7?  

The Pats, the Niners, the Jets with Darnold, the Bills, etc. all feast on the short intermediate game and then take the occasional shot down the field.  It’s look left open deliver if not go right if not run or throw it away. 

Do we have quick check off reads?

Go back to August first drive of the season against the Skins it was dump down...dump down...dump down....shot down the field.

i believe four weeks into the season baker led the league in leaving clean pockets

how soon we forget all those years of struggle we had a hall of fame left tackle pro bowl center and RT and QB with no decision making skills and we saw pressure.  We have never run the ball this well- and you can credit Chubb but he’s got room and he’s had room most of the year. 

I like Baker and the Shine is still on Freddie but it’s wearing a little.  Those two need to figure things out quickly 

[SdBacker80]

I don’t understand the Njoku love.  Sure he’s had a couple nice red zone grabs but he’s good for a drop or two inside the 20s, a dumb penalty and a missed block or two that results in negative plays.  

We could be a better team without him if we didn’t have his clone Harris.   

Baker misses 18 play calling and Higgins more than Njoku 

[jiggins7919]

1 minute ago, SdBacker80 said:

I don’t understand the Njoku love.  Sure he’s had a couple nice red zone grabs but he’s good for a drop or two inside the 20s, a dumb penalty and a missed block or two that results in negative plays.  

We could be a better team without him if we didn’t have his clone Harris.   

Baker misses 18 play calling and Higgins more than Njoku 

Njoku saved our ass a few times, especially on the fade route in the end zone.  The fade is something that takes time and chemistry to get right, and he and Baker definitely had it.  We simply don't have a "go-to" guy in the end zone OTHER than Nick Chubb.  I have a question for you, how many Browns wide receivers have a touchdown catch this year?

One, and it's OBJ.  Baker does not have a red zone TD pass to a wide receiver through 6 games, and that's DESPITE throwing the ball more than we RUN IT.  I've been saying it all year, Baker Mayfield simply is NOT throwing TD passes...that's why we're 2-4.  In one series against the Rams (the series that could've tied it up), Baker made the wrong read 3/4 times.  You almost have to TRY to screw that up like that.  Not only that, Baker missed a WIDE OPEN OBJ once again by targeting Demetrius Harris two weeks ago.  

Let's also be fair, that throw to Calloway was good enough to be caught for a TD, and at the very least, shouldn't have been a friggin pick.  But you know what this year feels like?  This season feels like Deshone Kizer ALL OVER AGAIN.  Before you start laughing and then screaming at me, I beg you to look at the numbers and tendencies.  Remember Kizer bailing out of the pocket and then running to the right and chucking it?  Sound like anyone you know?  Remember Kizer throwing several pretty good passes that bounced off the Hands of Kenny Britt and got returned for a TD or were just picked off in the end zone?  Sound familiar?  Do you REMEMBER that Kizer had 11 interceptions through the first six games and couldn't throw a TD pass to save his life?  Kizer either ran it in, turned it over, or we got a FG.  Do you recall Kizer making every wrong guess in the red zone and missing wide open targets?  

You get the point.  Is Baker Mayfield better than Deshone Kizer?  Yes, I'm not stupid.  They're going to look at some film, and you know what they're going to see?  Opposing defenses are too often ready for what's coming.  Several of Baker's INT's have been the result of the "RPO" pass route being jumped by the defender.  Baker fakes the handoff to Chubb, then rifles a slant to Landry or OBJ.  It's a pretty play when it works, and it's a play that can actually score if it's OBJ catching it.  The PROBLEM is that it's also very easy to identify, and the defender is often behind the route, so they can close FORWARD to catch it.  "So Jiggins, you arrogant blowhard, what's the answer?!"

I'm terribly glad you asked.  So, if you watch the games again, you'll notice on our RPO pass plays that defenders are breaking on the routes as SOON as Baker pulls the handoff.  This is nothing new, and it happens on virtually every play-action pass, BUT what's NOT happening is Baker using his shoulders and eyes to fake the defenders (who are already breaking on routes) and then either going deep or hitting the TE.  We've actually done it once or twice for big gains, but I'm stumped as to why we stopped.  If Baker pulls the handoff, gives a shoulder fake, and OBJ fakes the slant and instead goes out and up...it's got huge potential.  What I'm trying to say is that Baker is NOT using his eyes and shoulders to alter the position of defenders, and it's causing interceptions, missed TD's in red zone, and general pathetic misery.  For example, we're in the red zone, at the 10 yard line.  Everyone knows we look to the TE.  If Mayfield FAKES that ball to the TE and looks for the OTHER TE who slip-blocks (and gets help from RB) on the other side, he'll be open.  Promise.  

That's way too many words to simply say this:  Teams are jumping our routes and reading Baker's eyes and body language.  A couple of very quick shoulder gestures and fakes would do wonders for getting people open and keeping people honest on defense.  

[SdBacker80]

Joe Montana did this on the regular he’d pump left or right and then go the opposite direction sometimes he would even look and pump that way knowing full well his pre snap read wasn’t taking him there.  Simple.  Nothing crazy here.   

Baker is dealing with cat and mouse game the Defense is putting forth after a season of tape.  It’s time to play the game back a little and at the very least incorporate some deception in his game 

[jiggins7919]

2 hours ago, SdBacker80 said:

Baker is dealing with cat and mouse game the Defense is putting forth after a season of tape.  It’s time to play the game back a little and at the very least incorporate some deception in his game 

Bingo, and I'm confident it will happen. Perhaps not against the Patriots, lol, but I do think we'll play better. Btw, check out this article on Kitchens calling the same play. It's literally like the new kid playing Madden that doesn't understand calling the same play back to back will kill you. *sigh*

https://www-cleveland-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.cleveland.com/browns/2019/10/repeating-play-calls-hasnt-been-working-very-well-for-the-browns-freddie-kitchens-film-review.html?amp_js_v=a2&amp_gsa=1&outputType=amp&usqp=mq331AQCKAE%3D#aoh=15713423439488&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&amp_tf=From %1%24s&ampshare=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.cleveland.com%2Fbrowns%2F2019%2F10%2Frepeating-play-calls-hasnt-been-working-very-well-for-the-browns-freddie-kitchens-film-review.html