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California Proposition 8


Guest mz.

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I know we spoke a bit about Cal Prop 8 on the old site, but I feel like this is a good time to revisit it, as it looks as if, with 95% of precincts reporting, Proposition 8 (ban on gay marriage) will probably pass.

 

What hits me more than surprise, is the embarrassment I felt coming into work this morning. Working in a creative industry, I work with closely with a lot of gay dudes, many of which I am pretty decent friends with. Sporting my shiny new wedding ring (they were more excited for me to get married than I was), I get to look them in the face knowing the rest of us let them down, big time. If/when Prop 8 passes, equality gets thrown out of the window. But, yes, the people of the State of California have spoken and it appears more folks are against it than for it, so be it.

 

This goes well beyond what the Bible claims marriage means. It's about equality. We care more about Standards for Confining Farm Animals than we do for some of our human counterparts, and I find this tragic.

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I know we spoke a bit about Cal Prop 8 on the old site, but I feel like this is a good time to revisit it, as it looks as if, with 95% of precincts reporting, Proposition 8 (ban on gay marriage) will probably pass.

 

What hits me more than surprise, is the embarrassment I felt coming into work this morning. Working in a creative industry, I work with closely with a lot of gay dudes, many of which I am pretty decent friends with. Sporting my shiny new wedding ring (they were more excited for me to get married than I was), I get to look them in the face knowing the rest of us let them down, big time. If/when Prop 8 passes, equality gets thrown out of the window. But, yes, the people of the State of California have spoken and it appears more folks are against it than for it, so be it.

 

This goes well beyond what the Bible claims marriage means. It's about equality. We care more about Standards for Confining Farm Animals than we do for some of our human counterparts, and I find this tragic.

 

 

I disagree but you make fair points, mz the pussy.

 

I believe it is wrong.

 

You make it sound like The Bible has limited relevance. I disagree with you on that, too.

 

But there is nothing wrong with people disagreeing. In fact, it tends to be a healthy thing as long as it is constructive and not personal.

 

PS 'Tourism' in MA and CT - where I was born and where I now live - will be picking up sharply .

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You make it sound like The Bible has limited relevance. I disagree with you on that, too.

 

I know, John. It's just a fundamental disagreement we (and some many others like us) will have in perpetuity. I think it has unlimited relevance for those who choose to believe in it/live by it. But, when we see something like Prop 8 get passed, it applies its principles at the State level, which I have a tough time condoning...

 

And I honestly do respect your opinion, even though I have a tough time understanding it when I actually see the faces of the people affected. It hits closer to home for me than it does some other folks. It really is a shame that Amendments to the Bible can't be made as they are to our Constitution. I think maybe there'd be an update or two taking modern society into consideration. icon_e_wink.gif

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Disappointing. I heard that the age demo was really stark. Gay marriage will be legal and accepted across the nation in 10 years, when the current 55 plus crowd gets nudged out.

Common sense would agree with you, but the numbers are a little less clear:

 

18-29 (20% of voters) 37% voted for the ban

30-44 (28% of voters) 53%

45-64 (36% of voters) 53%

65+ (16% of voters) 59%

 

That looks okay as far as the future (maybe the distant future) goes. But indications from other states arent as promising. FL had more than 50% in every age group.

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That statement is correct. I'm not sure how much these numbers change over time, so it's difficult to predict future votes (or whether or not CA will use this format next time they address it), but the younger voters definitely broke from the majority on this.

 

Still, results like we saw in a state like FL make me wonder if the next generation's views are really as different as we think.

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18-29 (20% of voters) 37% voted for the ban

30-44 (28% of voters) 53%

45-64 (36% of voters) 53%

65+ (16% of voters) 59%

 

I think, as with all demographics, they need to be separated/further broken down. Those groups are just too darn big.

 

That whole "males 18-34" shit never flew with me because 18 year olds are vastly different, in every imaginable way, from 34 year olds. I don't feel AS STRONGLY for the difference between 30 and 44 year olds, but it is close.

 

What I'm saying is I think you're both correct, it's all how you look at the data....

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Black males are about as homophobic as it gets' date=' Steve. Pretty well known. Deep, deep cultural thing.

 

Sure glad somebody on the 'other side' didn't utter such racist rhetoric. There would be hell to pay. I guess saying that this is a 'deep cultural thing' is true only in this instance and not in any of the other stereotypes.

 

PS Black males don't go down on their Shorties, either.

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PS Black males don't go down on their Shorties, either.

 

Evidently, according to Junior on the Sopranos, neither do Italian dudes.

 

Anybody remember the ep?

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PS Black males don't go down on their Shorties, either.

 

Evidently, according to Junior on the Sopranos, neither do Italian dudes.

 

Anybody remember the ep?

 

Yeah, that was the first or second season... a while ago!

I miss that series being on, it was really entertaining.

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Black males are about as homophobic as it gets, Steve. Pretty well known. Deep, deep cultural thing.

 

Bottom line is that we no longer live in a culture where being a heterosexual male of European descent is a trump card. We truly will be living King, Jr.'s vision of a world where you're judged by the content of your character... and your intelligence, skill, talent, beauty, height, weight, integrity, kindness, etc. (!). But not much by your skin color, religion, gender, or sexual orientatation.

 

The dial has moved a ton in just the past decade or so. It'll double that pace in the next decade or so.

 

It certainly has Shep. You had better hope the story of the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah is just a fairy tale.

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Black males are about as homophobic as it gets, Steve. Pretty well known. Deep, deep cultural thing.

 

Bottom line is that we no longer live in a culture where being a heterosexual male of European descent is a trump card. We truly will be living King, Jr.'s vision of a world where you're judged by the content of your character... and your intelligence, skill, talent, beauty, height, weight, integrity, kindness, etc. (!). But not much by your skin color, religion, gender, or sexual orientatation.

 

The dial has moved a ton in just the past decade or so. It'll double that pace in the next decade or so.

 

It certainly has Shep. You had better hope the story of the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah is just a fairy tale.

 

It is.

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Most Calif. blacks backed proposition 8

 

53 percent of Latinos also supported the gay-marriage ban

 

High black voter turnout helped pass Prop 8

 

Nov. 6: California voters narrowly approved a measure to ban same-sex marriage, reversing a court decision in May that allowed it. NBC's Pete Williams reports.

 

LOS ANGELES, Nov. 6 - Any notion that Tuesday's election represented a liberal juggernaut must overcome a detail from the voting booths of California: The same voters who turned out strongest for Barack Obama also drove a stake through the heart of same-sex marriage.

 

Seven in 10 African Americans who went to the polls voted yes on Proposition 8, the ballot measure overruling a state Supreme Court judgment that legalized same-sex marriage and brought 18,000 gay and lesbian couples to Golden State courthouses in the past six months.

 

Similar measures passed easily in Florida and Arizona. It was closer in California, but no ethnic group anywhere rejected the sanctioning of same-sex unions as emphatically as the state's black voters, according to exit polls. Fifty-three percent of Latinos also backed Proposition 8, overcoming the bare majority of white Californians who voted to let the court ruling stand.

 

The outcome that placed two pillars of the Democratic coalition -- minorities and gays -- at opposite ends of an emotional issue sparked street protests in Los Angeles and a candlelight vigil in San Francisco. To gay rights advocates, the issue was one of civil rights. Attorney General Edmund G. "Jerry" Brown Jr. reworded the ballot language to state that a yes vote was a vote to "eliminate the rights of same-sex couples to marry."

 

That appeal ran head-on into a well-funded and well-framed advertising campaign in favor of the ban -- and the deeply ingrained religious beliefs of an African American community that largely declined to see the issue through a prism of equality.

 

"I think it's mainly because of the way we were brought up in the church; we don't agree with it," said Jasmine Jones, 25, who is black. "I'm not really the type that I wanted to stop people's rights. But I still have my beliefs, and if I can vote my beliefs that's what I'm going to do.

 

"God doesn't approve it, so I don't approve it. And I approve of Him."

 

The overwhelming rejection of same-sex marriage by black voters was surprising and disappointing to gay rights advocates who had hoped that African Americans would empathize with their struggle.

 

"I wasn't surprised by the Latinos," said Steve Smith, senior consultant for No on 8. "Basically, Latinos and the Anglo population were fairly close. The outlier of the proposition was African Americans. Many are churchgoing; many had ministers tell them to vote."

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"I wasn't surprised by the Latinos," said Steve Smith, senior consultant for No on 8. "Basically, Latinos and the Anglo population were fairly close. The outlier of the proposition was African Americans. Many are churchgoing; many had ministers tell them to vote."

 

This isn't race-baiting but, I feel, is a fair question: why does this demographic get a pass when some crazies in CA are blaming a handfull of Mormons?

 

Doesn't that seem a bit weird?

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Doesn't that seem a bit weird?

 

Blaming the Mormons is a) a bit over-the-top and B) turned my 8 minute commute home yesterday into an hour.

 

But, crazies are crazies, John. Who knows why they think as they do.

 

I believe nobody should "get a pass."

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Doesn't that seem a bit weird?

 

Blaming the Mormons is a) a bit over-the-top and B) turned my 8 minute commute home yesterday into an hour.

 

But, crazies are crazies, John. Who knows why they think as they do.

 

I believe nobody should "get a pass."

 

 

So you don't believe Randy Edsall should let up against Syracuse next Saturday night - in a game with BCS Bowl implications?

 

ESPNU

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I am hoping Randy Edsall (literally and figuratively) rips Greg Robinson's throat out, does the same to Daryl Gross, and then, as he is wading through their blood, has Nancy Cantor offer him the glowing briefcase in Pulp Fiction if he'll agree to be our next coach.

 

pulpfictioncase.jpg

 

I'm not sure he would break his UCONN contract to go to a team in the same Conference. That would probably be a 'no no'.

 

I still believe SU should go hard after Turner Gill. Winter in Syracuse is better than winter in Buffalo!

 

Gill should be in their crosshairs, IMHO.

 

Basically, The Big East is a 'stepping stone' conference for coaches. It will probably take some time for this to change - if ever.

 

Those basketball only schools make the entire conference a tough sell for football.

 

I believe Tranghese is done this year. I hope they can bring in a football guy. Basketball is pretty healthy so there is no need to bring in a guy like that.

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The Big East Conference is dying, football-wise. At least, when we had teams in Florida (sorry, USF, you barely count, even though you're a decent program) and the South, we'd get some Southern exposure, and that's where a ton of good players come from. When you're recruiting in New England and Upstate NY, this is the conference you get.

 

I'm with you 100% on the Turner Gill thang. Problem is, our AD is a moron.

 

Did you see we hired a "search firm" to aid in the hiring of the new coach? Pathetic.

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Question, mz the pussy:

 

What 'rights' do married couples have that civil union couples don't have?

 

This is an honest questions with no hidden agenda.

 

 

What differences were there in the black schools than in the whites schools prior to Brown v. Board?

 

I am not saying that civil unions are like the black schools in that they are not worth as much, just that the supreme court ruled that separate but equal is unconstitutional.

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Question, mz the pussy:

 

What 'rights' do married couples have that civil union couples don't have?

 

This is an honest questions with no hidden agenda.

 

I'm no attorney, so I had to do a search. Yes, I cut-and-pasted this article from something called "Lesbian Life" on about.com, so if you're homophobic, fellas, avert your eyes...

 

http://lesbianlife.about.com/cs/wedding/a/unionvmarriage.htmThe Difference between Gay Marriage and Civil Unions

 

by Kathy Belge

 

You hear the politicians saying it all the time. “I support Civil Unions, but not gay marriage.” What exactly does this mean? Some even say they support equal rights for gays and lesbians, but not gay marriage. Is this possible? And why do gays and lesbians want marriage so badly when they can have civil unions?

 

First of all, What is Marriage? When people marry, they tend to do so for reasons of love and commitment. But marriage is also a legal status, which comes with rights and responsibilities. Marriage establishes a legal kinship between you and your spouse. It is a relationship that is recognized across cultures, countries and religions.

 

What is a Civil Union? Civil Unions exist in only a handful of places: Vermont, New Jersey and Connecticut. California and Oregon have domestic partnership laws that offer many of the same rights as civil unions.

 

Vermont civil unions were created in 2000 to provide legal protections to gays and lesbians in relationships in that state because gay marriage is not an option. The protections do not extend beyond the border of Vermont and no federal protections are included with a Civil Union. Civil Unions offer some of the same rights and responsibilities as marriage, but only on a state level.

 

What about Domestic partnership? Some states and municipalities have domestic partnership registries, but no domestic partnership law is the same. Some, like the recently passed California domestic partnership law comes with many rights and responsibilities. Others, like the one in Washington, offer very few benefits to the couple.

 

What are some of the differences between Civil Unions and Gay Marriage?

 

Recognition in other states: Even though each state has its own laws around marriage, if someone is married in one state and moves to another, their marriage is legally recognized. For example, Oregon marriage law applies to people 17 and over. In Washington state, the couple must be 18 to wed. However, Washington will recognize the marriage of two 17 year olds from Oregon who move there. This is not the case with Civil Unions. If someone has a Civil Union in Vermont, that union is not recognized in any other state. As a matter of fact, two states, Connecticut and Georgia, have ruled that they do not have to recognize civil unions performed in Vermont, because their states have no such legal category. As gay marriages become legal in other states, this status may change.

 

Dissolving a Civil Union v. Divorce:

 

Vermont has no residency requirement for Civil Unions. That means two people from any other state or country can come there and have a civil union ceremony. If the couple breaks up and wishes to dissolve the union, one of them must be a resident of Vermont for one year before the Civil Union can be dissolved in family court. Married couples can divorce in any state they reside, no matter where they were married.

 

Immigration:

 

A United States citizen who is married can sponsor his or her non-American spouse for immigration into this country. Those with Civil Unions have no such privilege.

 

Taxes:

 

Civil Unions are not recognized by the federal government, so couples would not be able to file joint-tax returns or be eligible for tax breaks or protections the government affords to married couples.

 

Benefits:

 

The General Accounting Office in 1997 released a list of 1,049 benefits and protections available to heterosexual married couples. These benefits range from federal benefits, such as survivor benefits through Social Security, sick leave to care for ailing partner, tax breaks, veterans benefits and insurance breaks. They also include things like family discounts, obtaining family insurance through your employer, visiting your spouse in the hospital and making medical decisions if your partner is unable to. Civil Unions protect some of these rights, but not all of them.

 

But can’t a lawyer set all this up for gay and lesbian couples?

 

No. A lawyer can set up some things like durable power of attorney, wills and medical power of attorney. There are several problems with this, however.

 

1. It costs thousands of dollars in legal fees. A simple marriage license, which usually costs under $100 would cover all the same rights and benefits.

 

2. Any of these can be challenged in court. As a matter of fact, more wills are challenged than not. In the case of wills, legal spouses always have more legal power than any other family member.

 

3. Marriage laws are universal. If someone’s husband or wife is injured in an accident, all you need to do is show up and say you’re his or her spouse. You will not be questioned. If you show up at the hospital with your legal paperwork, the employees may not know what to do with you. If you simply say, "He's my husband," you will immediately be taken to your spouse's side.

 

Defense of Marriage Law

 

Even with lesbian and gay marriages being performed and recognized in some states, the Federal Defense of Marriage Law prohibits the federal government from recognizing gay and lesbian relationships. This puts gay and lesbian couples who are married in a legal limbo. How do they file their tax returns? Do they have to pay the tax on their partner’s health insurance? How do they fill out legal and other forms, single or married?

 

Creating Civil Unions creates a separate and unequal status for some of America’s citizens. The Massachusetts Supreme Judicial court ruled that creating a separate class for gay and lesbian citizens is not permissible and that is why they have voted that only marriage equals marriage. The precedent was set with Brown v. The Board of Education regarding segregation in public education. Ironically, Massachusetts marriage law went into effect on the 50th anniversary of Brown v. Board of Education.

 

The United States Constitution guarantees equality for all. As you can see, marriage and civil unions are not the same. Creating equal access to marriage is the only fair way to ensure equality for gay and straight couples alike.

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