🏈🏈🏈🟫🟫🟫⬜⬜⬜🟧🟧🟧Official Gameday Thread STEELER WEEK! 🟧🟧🟧⬜⬜⬜🟫🟫🟫🏈🏈🏈

[Vagitron]

2 hours ago, Dutch Oven said:

He had a good game.

But there was at no time during the game that I thought to myself:

"Oh shit, we have a beast to contend with for years". 

Not at all. 

I"m going to screen shot this for use at a later date. 

[Vagitron]

2 hours ago, hoorta said:

Did he complete any passes that went farther than 20 yards?  His completion % on those passes sucks.  I checked  Nex Gen stats, Ben completed TWO passes of more than 20 yards against the Browns, and I'm not sure if that includes YAC. Only tried four. Ben is now Mr. Dink and Dunk, and he's just a shadow of what he was 10 years ago.  

BTW, watching MNF, the last 9 games- the Browns have the second toughest remaining schedule- right behind the Chiefs.  
And whoopee! until you managed to eke out a win against the Browns- you hadn't beaten a team with a winning record. 

It's how the offense is being called right now. It's also been dink and dunk because the line is really young, the same line that absolutely controlled the line of scrimmage.  The only reason garrett had himself a day is because the Steelers weren't chipping him and leaving moore on a island which I admit was a little strange. Ben's arm is completely fine from a strength stand point and he's hard more than a few passes this year that displays it.  He again can't rely on his mobility anymore or his stature/strength because of previous injuries which is why you aren't seeing all the normal ben theatrics. The man is notorious for not watching a ton of tape, not throwing in the offseason etc.  He has always been the guy that just goes out and does it, now that his body is catching up he can't so he's had to adjust. As far as the schedule is concerned the games we did lose were all to good teams and none were blow outs and several were when the line wasn't gelling.  The line is gelling now which is why the run game is improving. The steelers are also running quite a bit of RPO stuff. 

 

EDIT: Your schedule argument is seriously lazy.  We already played the Packers and the Raiders, we haven't had any cup cake games yet but the Browns certainly have. We have nearly identical schedules only ours is likely more difficult as a whole. What now? 

[Vagitron]

23 hours ago, Gorka said:

You were never the sharpest tool in the shed.

I was taking a shot at that stupid meme. Harris is the real deal. Get it now?

Hey man, you never fucking know around these parts.  Sorry for lumping you in with the "abnormals" 

[hoorta]

24 minutes ago, Vagitron said:

It's how the offense is being called right now. It's also been dink and dunk because the line is really young, the same line that absolutely controlled the line of scrimmage.  The only reason garrett had himself a day is because the Steelers weren't chipping him and leaving moore on a island which I admit was a little strange. Ben's arm is completely fine from a strength stand point and he's hard more than a few passes this year that displays it.  He again can't rely on his mobility anymore or his stature/strength because of previous injuries which is why you aren't seeing all the normal ben theatrics. The man is notorious for not watching a ton of tape, not throwing in the offseason etc.  He has always been the guy that just goes out and does it, now that his body is catching up he can't so he's had to adjust. As far as the schedule is concerned the games we did lose were all to good teams and none were blow outs and several were when the line wasn't gelling.  The line is gelling now which is why the run game is improving. The steelers are also running quite a bit of RPO stuff. 

 

EDIT: Your schedule argument is seriously lazy.  We already played the Packers and the Raiders, we haven't had any cup cake games yet but the Browns certainly have. We have nearly identical schedules only ours is likely more difficult as a whole. What now? 

The above is the equivalent of Zombo saying Baker is totally fine.  FWIW- I DID check your schedule before I posted. Yours is front loaded, ours is back loaded. Browns #2, Steelers #15  http://www.tankathon.com/nfl/remaining_schedule_strength

[Dutch Oven]

1 hour ago, Vagitron said:

I"m going to screen shot this for use at a later date. 

You can blow it up and get it framed at your local Michael's craft store if that tickles your fancy. 

[Vagitron]

4 hours ago, hoorta said:

The above is the equivalent of Zombo saying Baker is totally fine.  FWIW- I DID check your schedule before I posted. Yours is front loaded, ours is back loaded. Browns #2, Steelers #15  http://www.tankathon.com/nfl/remaining_schedule_strength

Sooooooo when you click that link it says "remaining schedule".  The Browns have a tougher remaining schedule because the Steelers schedule started heavy.  Go through both schedules and compare the differences.  

[hoorta]

1 hour ago, Vagitron said:

Sooooooo when you click that link it says "remaining schedule".  The Browns have a tougher remaining schedule because the Steelers schedule started heavy.  Go through both schedules and compare the differences.  

That's exactly what I said,  you weren't paying attention.  Differences?  Steelers = Bills, Seahawks, and Titans. Browns = Texans, Cardinals, Patriots.  ONLY differences. You want to make a BFD that we got the Texans instead of the Seahawks? 

[ATOM]

On 11/1/2021 at 5:16 PM, jiggins7919 said:

Well, I'm extremely sorry for ranting like a lunatic, guys. It's not my normal way. It USED to be, but whatever. 😀

its all good I was just reading where stef said for now obj is not on the team

[Vagitron]

18 hours ago, hoorta said:

That's exactly what I said,  you weren't paying attention.  Differences?  Steelers = Bills, Seahawks, and Titans. Browns = Texans, Cardinals, Patriots.  ONLY differences. You want to make a BFD that we got the Texans instead of the Seahawks? 

Gipp......I mean Lar-bear don't move the fucking goal posts.  You were talking shit about the schedules and I told you they are virtually the same.  If you didn't believe the Browns had a harder schedule overall why bring it up in the first place?  If I misinterpreted what you said initially explain, otherwise you owe me a damn beer. 

[tiamat63]

On 11/1/2021 at 8:38 AM, jrb12711 said:

Nah, I'm not going to just let this go.

 

Of course, I'll concede he left his front foot. But I'm not sure if he left his back foot (maybe he did, I genuinely can't tell), but most importantly I don't think he had to (more on that below). Also, he didn't "just get a finger tip on it". He had both hands on it, which is not disputable from that view. I just don't see how you watch that and say it "barely clips his hands"

From the route and momentum perspective, I just strongly disagree with you. Candidly, Landry looks to be running a slow route on the first half and has to speed up to get to the spot where the ball is. I'm really not sure anything you can say would change my mind there.

I told you I'd come back to this.  Especially given my mentioning of Baker and straight drops in the other thread.  To recap real fast.   You initially said it was a dime throw that hit Juice in stride.  I saw the ball was both late, high AND a bit wide for the route.    At this point, the only one of us that has had to give any ground in their argument is you.    You're about to give a hell of a lot more.  

Pittsburgh attempting to bluff a single high, likely a man coverage look, pre-snap.

 

 

 

Steelers rotate into a very familiar 2 man under but with one small twist, they only rush 3 and drop a 4th on a spy/delayed lane.  If Baker presents himself he can rush, if not he settles under and waits for him to roll.

 

 

Brownies attack this look with another familiar look, one I broke down against the Chargers.  This is an educated guess, but given Juice's read on the fly, it's another middle field read.

Cover 1 with Minkah holding on the inside hash and Juice has the freedom to break this vertical and leverage just inside the numbers for a little extra space.  Hoop is running the seam. If Hoop draws zone he breezes by and splits the safety's.  If he draws man then you replace the MIKE baker with another route.  In this case, it's Juice reading cover 2 and breaking to the post. Which he can then carry across the field or settle down.  

 

 

 

Landry wins and wins immediately.   Honestly, this ball should have been thrown the second Baker read man and saw the MIKE void.

 

 He rounds out around the nickel, then flattens his route to give his QB a window before the safety and beyond the sticks. Minkah has no time to recover here, the corner has no time to recover here.

  I even was decent enough to highlight Bakers eyes.    Boom, gone. Move the chains and give your team the best possible chance to complete a game winning drive.    Buuuuuuut, instead the ball isn't out.    Baker does something that makes little sense to me.

 

 

He goes back to Hoop and to double check where the MIKE is because, best I can figure, he's worried about a sink and him undercutting the throw?  

The huge issue with that is you've now allowed the DB's to plant and drive on the route unfolding in front of them.  There's only so much time these windows stay open which is why the word "anticipation" gets thrown around so god damn much.   There was NO where else to go on the field with this ball at such a high percentage.  Honestly, I'd call this a gimmie if it's out on time.  Even with Landry struggling that day, I feel like he would have made up for it with a beautiful, smooth catch and maybe a little YAC.

 

 

 

Fun Fun, Baker realizes he has man.  He also realizes he's fucked up and he's late with the throw because Cam is coming in hot.  So he now has to roll short against a spy and try to deliver.

 

 

At this point, Landry slowed down the speed of his route because he didn't want to carry it into any further traffic with the MIKE.  So if you're wondering aloud why Jarvis "slowed" down, it's because he won so immediately and for so damn long (In NFL terms) that he believed this ball was coming his way.  Baker had him, he had the read, then fell off of him.  So I can understand why he had to speed back up.  Because in the previous frame he's 2 yards outside the field hash.   When this ball is gone, Baker has to do a little jump, gets nothing off his back foot, is over-rotating and using pure arm.   Ball ends up high, wide and most importantly... LATE.  

 

 

Jarvis has to accelerate to make it to the boundary hash, Minkah, one of the best DB's in the NFL, has been given time to recover.  The ball is almost on the field hash and high, because Minkah is off his feet and not even making contact with the ball.  It's a great timing piece.  He destroys Juice as the ball arrives.    I can think of a small handful of players in the NFL who might have pulled this down.   Adams,  Kelce & Kittle...  maybe Mike Evans, D-HOp, maybe DK?   6'2+ receivers who are 220lbs.   And even then, it's a LOW percentage catch.  You're beating the odds by pulling this down.  Landry has done it before, we've both watched it.  It just couldn't bail out Baker one more time.   And you know what? That isn't on him.

 

 

 

This play, whether you want to admit it or not, is on the QB.   Landry did everything he could to win this route and make life easy on Baker.  This was a gift from Landry when the window was there.  There isn't a QB worth their weight that's going to say this wasn't a high percentage throw, where the percentage was cut by more than half when Baker was a full second + late.  Along with throwing from a jump step and sideways.      Catching is based highly on probability, do you know what player gave the greatest negative effect on said probability of this 1st down?  I'll give you 3 guesses, but you'll only need one.

 

So when you say - "I'm really not sure anything you can say would change my mind there. Baker put that ball where it needed to be (position wise, not high or low) to give him a chance."

I'm hoping this is the anything that changes your mind so we can agree on just what reality really is here. Otherwise that's just wildly arrogant and I'm not even that bad when I get proof thrown in my face.   Baker did NOT put that ball where it needed to be.  He put it there only when he realized he had no where else that ball could have gone.   If I give you a 5% chance at accomplishing something and you don't, I don't blame that on you.   I realize the deck was not stacked in your favor. 

 

edit:

 

Doing this breakdown re-enforces a few things I've said.

- The need for a WR who can get these safeties to hesitate.  By hesitate I mean, Minkah is playing a deep 1/2 to the field.  He has more ground to cover than the boundary safety but he immediately jumps that inside post.   He's a smart DB, one of the best. So I'm sure he knows how offenses love to attack cover 2.  But this is the type of thing where a dominant perimeter 'X' makes life easier.  Because it makes Minkah peak back outside because that CB to the field is getting ZERO help in man coverage. Or you get a one on one matchup that you take the shot on.  DK Metcalf anyone?  There's no way he could recover if that was a vertical route won by the receiver outside... not a chance in hell.

- Also speaks to what I've mentioned about this team and route selection during the Vikings game.  We love throwing positive breaks (routes back inside).  And we do it a lot because I genuinely believe Baker has some large inconsistencies throwing downfield and outside.   I mentioned Jared Goff before, but the Rams went into Minnesota a few years back with a similar structure and got their fucking ass beat by attempting to overplay everything inside.  I even mentioned all the Vikings DB's playing hard inside leverage and we still couldn't take advantage of that.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[hoorta]

thanks Tia... that post shows in spades what' s going to separate Baker from the truly elite QBs. "He who hesitates is lost."  Brady would have unloaded  that ball to Jarvis wide open over the middle ten out of ten times. 

[gumby73]

we ticked off Houston for a depth tackle on their PS.. they encounter by taking Davion Davis..

my thought was trade for Brandon Cooks or Calvin Ridley..     Berry's focus goes to OBJ drama... a free WR DeSean Jackson becomes a Raider 😜

the 2022 draft looks solid in WR market...

 

Peoples Jones is our front runner..let's see more.. and PS JoJo Natson must have cement for hands at practice? I'd thought, he'd be seeing real WR game reps by now?

Good breakdown Tia 👍  crushed it!

[Dutch Oven]

6 hours ago, hoorta said:

thanks Tia... that post shows in spades what' s going to separate Baker from the truly elite QBs. "He who hesitates is lost."  Brady would have unloaded  that ball to Jarvis wide open over the middle ten out of ten times. 

Did you not get the memo?

Nothing but sunshine and rainbows regarding one Baker Reagan Mayfield, sir.

Watch out for the pitchforks! 😉

[jrb12711]

@tiamat63 I don't want to quote your whole thing to bog down the thread. Obviously, the time taken is appreciated. I think you're overstating the fact that I said it was all on Juice, nor if he missed a read before hand. I was strictly looking at the throw made, where it was and the chance to catch it. 

For some reason I can't find drop stats, but it was considered a drop: https://www.cleveland.com/browns/2021/11/jarvis-landrys-drops-are-an-anomaly-says-alex-van-pelt-and-everything-else-we-learned-about-the-browns-on-thursday.html (unless I'm totally blanking on another drop in the 4th quarter). I stated multiple times it wasn't a good football, but it was a catchable football. I just disagree with you that "only a handful of players" make that catch. You say that's 5%, I'd easily put that at 30-40%. Again, is that what you want? No. But is it something you hope your $15 million dollar WR comes down with? Yes. I'll back off a touch is assigning blame, but my point still remains: Baker had 6-7 drops in that game (debating this one). That puts his stat line at 26 or 27-31 for likely close to 300 yards. So when I instead see a dude make a bad fumble and drop two footballs? Yeah, I'm pointing the finger there first. 

[mjp28]

On 10/31/2021 at 2:19 PM, Claret&Brown said:

I would stick to kicking it pal 😂

I agree....maybe a little bit late.