In Defense of Deshaun

[hish747]

First, let me start by saying that I was initially relieved when Watson said no to the Browns. I should also say that I'm an attorney whose main focus has been working with victims of domestic and sexual violence. Predominantly, but not exclusively, women. My gut reaction was to side with the accusers and I certainly didn't want to have anything to do with someone who, based on what I've heard, appeared to be some kind of a sexual predator. I was very disappointed when the Browns subsequently dealt for Watson. How can I hold my head up as a Browns fan after this? More importantly, I have two teenage boys and a daughter to think of. I was really upset about the signing.

Then I dug deeper into the Watson allegations. I researched the Texas grand jury proceedings and actually read the civil filings. 

Let's start with the criminal matters. It turns out that there were potentially 12 criminal cases against Deshaun. The prosecutor decided that 2 of the cases were nonsense and then decided against pursuing a 3rd, presumably because it either had no merit or weakened the other 9 cases. So the prosecutor therefore presented 9 cases to the grand jury. The jury decided that none of the 9 cases showed PROBABLE CAUSE that Watson committed any crime. NONE of them. The standard here is probable cause. Not beyond a reasonable doubt. In other words, it's the same standard used in the civil cases against Watson. Not a high standard. The prosecution,  who under tremendous public pressure to bring this case, could not show that Watson more likely than not engaged in the activity charged in ANY of 9 cases. Then I started wondering why Watson wasn’t also charged for soliciting prostitution? If this was really about Watson wanting to engage in sexual acts for money, wouldn't it stand to reason that they would have charged for solicitation?  In Texas, you don't even need to be soliciting a "prostitute." Just the act of requesting sexual acts for money is enough. Kraft was. Why not Deshaun? Is it that such charges might raise the faintest hint that the victims may have been somehow complicit. This would be inconsistent with both the criminal and civil matters and not would reflect well on the plaintiffs . But surely, it would have been easy enough to prove. Unless of course the prosecution did not feel comfortable that they should or could prove it.

On top of the Texas prosecution, Watson also agreed to be interviewed by the FBI. Nothing came of that either. Would you agree to be questioned by the FBI if you thought you did anything wrong?

The conclusion is that Watson committed no crime.

Let's consider the civil lawsuits. If the FBI and grand jury couldn't find that Watson, did anything wrong, there is probably no compelling reason to think that a civil jury, using the same standard, will find any different. I read the civil filings and my takeaway was very different from what is portrayed in the media. I didn't see a sexual predator who forced anyone to do anything. What I read about was a young man, who was kind of polite but also naive and stupid in his interactions with the massage therapists. The stories told by the therapists by and large don't mention him overcoming any of the plaintiffs by force. They say he asked them if they would do certain things. Maybe he wanted a massage with a 'happy ending'; or maybe not. Many 25 year old men would probably enjoy that. I don't think it would have come as a shock to these massage therapists that such a thing exists. But some say they were shocked. Yet, these plaintiffs had repeat appointments with Deshaun, after initially "shocking" and "inappropriate" encounters. Why go back for seconds if you really are shocked by a client's behavior? Maybe the money was too good? Maybe they saw a huge payday. In any event, these cases will never go to a jury; they will be settled out of court, but not for anywhere near what the plaintiffs expect. The bulk of the settlement will go to the plaintiff's attorney. By the way, Watson made a very interesting condition of the settlement; no confidentiality clause. Because he doesn’t want anyone to say that he is paying for anyone’s silence…and possibly because he wants to be able to tell what happened from his point of view.

If Watson isn’t found criminally or civilly liable, and I think he will not, will we say well, he’s probably guilty anyway? Is that how we would want to be treated? It’s unfortunate that in the current media climate, allegations seems to be as good as a convictions. Everyone deserves fairness. If he isn't found guilty, then he is innocent. If he is innocent, then he already gave up a year practicing his profession because of charges that could not hold up in court. It would be a shame for him to endure more suspension. In any event, I know how to talk to my kids, I’m over the drama, and I will support the Browns in what promises to be a very exciting season.

 

[Pat Mahomo]

Why did the Browns draw up a contract that only pays a very low number in bas salary this year so as to avoid Watson having to pay or forfiet only tiny amounts in the event of a suspension?  That doesn't happen when you think the NFL is going to come to the conclusion that Watson is not culpable in some way.

[mjp28]

3 hours ago, hish747 said:

. But surely, it would have been easy enough to prove. Unless of course the prosecution did not feel comfortable that they should or could prove it.

On top of the Texas prosecution, Watson also agreed to be interviewed by the FBI. Nothing came of that either. Would you agree to be questioned by the FBI if you thought you did anything wrong?.......

........The conclusion is that Watson committed no crime.

 

Being that the quarterback is the leader of team compared to let's say a defensive player or staff where does character or judgment or maybe reputation  come in  play here for a guy who was just handed a HUGE 5 year guaranteed contract a will be wearing a BROWNS uniform  ?  Or doesn't that matter at all just win baby and we'll just pretend that none of this matters at all ?

Have we and the NFL shield just overlook all of this ?  Will a 12-4 season and a deep playoff run make everyone forget about this whole salacious stuff.....and for 5 years  ?

I guess we'll all find out soon enough. 

GO BROWNS,  just win......baby !

[7moses7]

I’m no attorney but I’d speculate if he has to settle any civil suits he would only pay a percentage of what his current salary is. The less you make the less they can take 

[mjp28]

3 minutes ago, 7moses7 said:

I’m no attorney but I’d speculate if he has to settle any civil suits he would only pay a percentage of what his current salary is. The less you make the less they can take 

Don't some judgements go way beyond current salaries and just tag you for a percentage of future earnings until paid off, even for life ?

Child support can run like that, and isn't it up to existing guidelines or a judge's discretion even if it overrides a jury award.

Hey we're just like people's court here !  Inquiring minds want to know  !    

[Osiris]

3 hours ago, Pat Mahomo said:

Why did the Browns draw up a contract that only pays a very low number in bas salary this year so as to avoid Watson having to pay or forfiet only tiny amounts in the event of a suspension?  That doesn't happen when you think the NFL is going to come to the conclusion that Watson is not culpable in some way.

An NFL suspension doesn't equate to a legal verdict. The NFL has concerns about its bottom line, and if the NFL thinks the bottom line will be impacted negatively by declining to suspend Watson, they may suspend him to appease the court of public opinion. 

If the Browns are convinced of his innocence, but consider what I just mentioned, maybe they are protecting him from further unjustness by losing money for something he didn't do. 

[Osiris]

3 hours ago, mjp28 said:

Being that the quarterback is the leader of team compared to let's say a defensive player or staff where does character or judgment or maybe reputation  come in  play here for a guy who was just handed a HUGE 5 year guaranteed contract a will be wearing a BROWNS uniform  ?  Or doesn't that matter at all just win baby and we'll just pretend that none of this matters at all ?

Have we and the NFL shield just overlook all of this ?  Will a 12-4 season and a deep playoff run make everyone forget about this whole salacious stuff.....and for 5 years  ?

I guess we'll all find out soon enough. 

GO BROWNS,  just win......baby !

We already know, the evidence is Ben Roethlesburger, Kareem Hunt, Ray Rice, Ray Lewis, etc etc etc

What Watson actually did may not even rise to the level of what these guys did, given that the only thing he has admitted to is consensual sexual activity with one or two of these women.

[SdBacker80]

5 hours ago, Pat Mahomo said:

Why did the Browns draw up a contract that only pays a very low number in bas salary this year so as to avoid Watson having to pay or forfiet only tiny amounts in the event of a suspension?  That doesn't happen when you think the NFL is going to come to the conclusion that Watson is not culpable in some way.

I think you are overlooking the leverage one party has over the other.  Deshaun and his team could call the shots.  
 

I see questionable bargains all the time in life, sports and work.  If one party is desperate stuff like this happens 

edit: just listened to Papa and Charlie Weiss on XM NFL radio- they asked this same question.   And said how do Browns feel that he didn’t want to go to Cleveland until all the money was guaranteed?  We basically did Baker wrong in their eyes and we will regret the deal and look what we did to contracts moving forward when guys want all guaranteed dollars

[hish747]

6 hours ago, 7moses7 said:

I’m no attorney but I’d speculate if he has to settle any civil suits he would only pay a percentage of what his current salary is. The less you make the less they can take 

No one would draft a settlement agreement based on percentage of earnings. It's almost always just a lump sum. Even a judgement would likely be a lump sum if it went to trial, which it won't.

[Bob806]

1 hour ago, SdBacker80 said:

I think you are overlooking the leverage one party has over the other.  Deshaun and his team could call the shots.  
 

I see questionable bargains all the time in life, sports and work.  If one party is desperate stuff like this happens 

edit: just listened to Papa and Charlie Weiss on XM NFL radio- they asked this same question.   And said how do Browns feel that he didn’t want to go to Cleveland until all the money was guaranteed?  We basically did Baker wrong in their eyes and we will regret the deal and look what we did to contracts moving forward when guys want all guaranteed dollars

Yeah this is what has me miffed on the Browns end....business is business, but cutting guys to clear cap space, and devote roughly 25% of the cap to ONE guy is crazy (in my eyes), and to GUARANTEE it? Yikes, Haslam set a precedent that's going to irk other owners I bet.

[SdBacker80]

2 hours ago, Bob806 said:

Yeah this is what has me miffed on the Browns end....business is business, but cutting guys to clear cap space, and devote roughly 25% of the cap to ONE guy is crazy (in my eyes), and to GUARANTEE it? Yikes, Haslam set a precedent that's going to irk other owners I bet.

Have we ever had a “franchise” QB?   I know this is New territory for us.

 When Mahomes, Allen, Rodgers, Wilson and generally the upper echelon get paid their contract takes up a lot of the teams cap space. 
 

Packers lost Adams, Chiefs are losing guys and will continue to have good talent cut, the Seahawks could never pay for Oline talent (they had tackle hold out and a bunch of stop gaps).  The Browns will lose Ward next year.  Baker hurt this team last year and this coming year by not playing like the #1 overall pick that he was…instead Joe Burrow played like it and the Bengals went to the SB. 
 

so the league is pissed off- so what.  The Browns were and are pissed when the league issues apologies on missed calls or when Josh Gordon is suspended for a year and goes to NE and on his next suspension gets docked one game…or how about getting effed with the Raiders game and COVID nonsense…but the league fixes things after they screw us.  I got a tissue for Baltimore when they owe Lamar more guaranteed money.   Not trying to play victim but Papa and Weiss can kiss my @$$ 

[nickers]

7 minutes ago, SdBacker80 said:

Have we ever had a “franchise” QB?   I know this is New territory for us.

 When Mahomes, Allen, Rodgers, Wilson and generally the upper echelon get paid their contract takes up a lot of the teams cap space. 
 

Packers lost Adams, Chiefs are losing guys and will continue to have good talent cut, the Seahawks could never pay for Oline talent (they had tackle hold out and a bunch of stop gaps).  The Browns will lose Ward next year.  Baker hurt this team last year and this coming year by not playing like the #1 overall pick that he was…instead Joe Burrow played like it and the Bengals went to the SB. 
 

so the league is pissed off- so what.  The Browns were and are pissed when the league issues apologies on missed calls or when Josh Gordon is suspended for a year and goes to NE and on his next suspension gets docked one game…or how about getting effed with the Raiders game and COVID nonsense…but the league fixes things after they screw us.  I got a tissue for Baltimore when they owe Lamar more guaranteed money.   Not trying to play victim but Papa and Weiss and kiss my @$$ 

yes Otto Graham and Bernie Kosar..

[SdBacker80]

9 minutes ago, nickers said:

yes Otto Graham and Bernie Kosar..

Sorry let me clarify in the Salary Cap era

[Bob806]

34 minutes ago, SdBacker80 said:

 

so the league is pissed off- so what.  The Browns were and are pissed when the league issues apologies on missed calls or when Josh Gordon is suspended for a year and goes to NE and on his next suspension gets docked one game…or how about getting effed with the Raiders game and COVID nonsense…but the league fixes things after they screw us.  I got a tissue for Baltimore when they owe Lamar more guaranteed money.   Not trying to play victim but Papa and Weiss and kiss my @$$ 

There's a ton of " screwing the Browns" tales for sure & I could name a half dozen or more easily.

I'm talking the "guaranteed money" they gave Watson. That's unheard of in the NFL, I'm fairly certain.

 

[nickers]

24 minutes ago, Bob806 said:

There's a ton of " screwing the Browns" tales for sure & I could name a half dozen or more easily.

I'm talking the "guaranteed money" they gave Watson. That's unheard of in the NFL, I'm fairly certain.

 

Thats Haslam and Berry being desperate in my view...

[Ibleedbrown]

26 minutes ago, Bob806 said:

There's a ton of " screwing the Browns" tales for sure & I could name a half dozen or more easily.

I'm talking the "guaranteed money" they gave Watson. That's unheard of in the NFL, I'm fairly certain.

 

The Vikings set that precedent when they signed Kirk Cousins to a fully guaranteed contract. The Browns may have expanded the horizons of that precedent. 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.espn.com/blog/minnesota-vikings/post/_/id/31527/why-final-five-games-may-help-determine-kirk-cousins-future-in-minnesota%3fplatform=amp

[Bob806]

56 minutes ago, Ibleedbrown said:

The Vikings set that precedent when they signed Kirk Cousins to a fully guaranteed contract. The Browns may have expanded the horizons of that precedent. 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.espn.com/blog/minnesota-vikings/post/_/id/31527/why-final-five-games-may-help-determine-kirk-cousins-future-in-minnesota%3fplatform=amp

Ok...I wasn't 100% certain on whether Watson set a precedent on guaranteed $$. Thanks.

 

[SdBacker80]

1 hour ago, Bob806 said:

There's a ton of " screwing the Browns" tales for sure & I could name a half dozen or more easily.

I'm talking the "guaranteed money" they gave Watson. That's unheard of in the NFL, I'm fairly certain.

 

Papa and Weiss kind of pissed me off this morning and generally this is where my comments were coming from.   And their slight on the Browns like how does it feel browns fans that you had to go down this unchartered road to bring in a franchise QB after our current QB declined to play for us.  

In Papa’s case as a Giants guy I guess it is better than having Danny Dimes and Tyrod Taylor 

[hoorta]

9 hours ago, Pat Mahomo said:

Why did the Browns draw up a contract that only pays a very low number in base salary this year so as to avoid Watson having to pay or forfeit only tiny amounts in the event of a suspension?  That doesn't happen when you think the NFL is going to come to the conclusion that Watson is not culpable in some way.

As they say Pat... "Image is everything".   If this all turn out to be this was just consensual sex in a massage parlor, we gotta show the NFL audience this doesn't look good.  Should Watson get suspended for a significant number of games, (Goodell can do whatever he feels like) the hypocrisy from my POV is stunning...  He didn't do diddly-do to one of the guys who pays his salary (Robert Kraft) who got charged with soliciting prostitution- and it was even on camera.  

[hoorta]

1 hour ago, Bob806 said:

There's a ton of " screwing the Browns" tales for sure & I could name a half dozen or more easily.

I'm talking the "guaranteed money" they gave Watson. That's unheard of in the NFL, I'm fairly certain.

 

I'll comment on this in more detail in another thread Bob, but yeah- 'twas 2018 four (short) years ago the Vikings gave Cousins that unheard of at the time $80 million guaranteed.  But if you break that down on a per year basis, Watson's $230 million is less than Rodgers $150 million. Watson is 26, Rodgers is 38. I don't have a crystal ball to predict what NFL salaries are going to look like in 2026, but I can safely predict when Directv loses Sunday Ticket after this year, there's bidders already out there (Disney) willing to double, and possibly triple (Amazon) the $$$billion a year the NFL is currently getting for the service. Do the math what that alone will do to the salary cap.   

[TexasAg1969]

15 minutes ago, hoorta said:

As they say Pat... "Image is everything".   If this all turn out to be this was just consensual sex in a massage parlor, we gotta show the NFL audience this doesn't look good.  Should Watson get suspended for a significant number of games, (Goodell can do whatever he feels like) the hypocrisy from my POV is stunning...  He didn't do diddly-do to one of the guys who pays his salary (Robert Kraft) who got charged with soliciting prostitution- and it was even on camera.  

Back in the day it was not hidden or passed off as a massage parlor. It was the best little whorehouse in Texas in La Grange. Damn that Marvin Zindler for forcing it all underground.🤠

A decent private eye would try to find if a lot of their "customers" get similar "special treatment".

[hish747]

1 hour ago, nickers said:

Thats Haslam and Berry being desperate in my view...

Desperate? Nope. They were BOSSES. They did what they had to do to get the best QB available. For the record, at least one other team complained that they would have matched the Browns' offer. Deshaun didn't give them a chance. He actually wanted Cleveland. Contrary to the popular media mentality of belittling the Browns at every opportunity by saying he wanted nothing to do with Cleveland.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/10030422-report-1-nfl-team-wouldve-matched-deshaun-watsons-browns-contract-if-given-chance

 

[Bob806]

40 minutes ago, SdBacker80 said:

Papa and Weiss kind of pissed me off this morning and generally this is where my comments were coming from.   And their slight on the Browns like how does it feel browns fans that you had to go down this unchartered road to bring in a franchise QB after our current QB declined to play for us.  ....after the Browns told him they wanted him as the starter at the Combine

In Papa’s case as a Giants guy I guess it is better than having Danny Dimes and Tyrod Taylor 

I'm sure the NFL radio team didn't add that snippett I put in above.

[MDDawg]

39 minutes ago, TexasAg1969 said:

Back in the day it was not hidden or passed off as a massage parlor. It was the best little whorehouse in Texas in La Grange. Damn that Marvin Zindler for forcing it all underground.🤠

A decent private eye would try to find if a lot of their "customers" get similar "special treatment".

Hate to be graphic but how do you force someone into receiving fellatio without raping them? Jedi mind trick? He was never charged with rape.

[hoorta]

29 minutes ago, MDDawg said:

Hate to be graphic but how do you force someone into receiving fellatio without raping them? Jedi mind trick? He was never charged with rape.

This boils down to a she said, he said argument.... And IF she got paid? That removes a lot of the well, he forced me to do it.  If you go to the OP, the DA couldn't prove anyone was forced to do anything.  Then there's also the attorney who's representing a lot of the women who IMHO is only in it to get a pile of cash for these women, and by extension himself. 

[Osiris]

44 minutes ago, hoorta said:

This boils down to a she said, he said argument.... And IF she got paid? That removes a lot of the well, he forced me to do it.  If you go to the OP, the DA couldn't prove anyone was forced to do anything.  Then there's also the attorney who's representing a lot of the women who IMHO is only in it to get a pile of cash for these women, and by extension himself. 

The attorney who:

1. Accepted donations to his mayorial campaign from, guess who, McNair, owner of the Texans
2. Who lives on the same street as the McNair
3. Whose wife is friends with McNair's grand daughter
4. Has a reputation as an ambulance-chaser

Why did all this surface only after he requested a trade? Angry billionaire and scummy lawyer scratch each others back to punish Watson and make scummy lawyer richer? Too many coincidences to ignore. 

Here's the submission to the court from Watson's attorney, make up your own minds, but he does make an excellent case pointing out all the inconsistencies in the prosecution's case:

https://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/20619132/deshaun-watson-original-answer.pdf

[MDDawg]

7 minutes ago, Osiris said:

The attorney who:

1. Accepted donations to his mayorial campaign from, guess who, McNair, owner of the Texans
2. Who lives on the same street as the McNair
3. Whose wife is friends with McNair's grand daughter
4. Has a reputation as an ambulance-chaser

Why did all this surface only after he requested a trade? Angry billionaire and scummy lawyer scratch each others back to punish Watson and make scummy lawyer richer? Too many coincidences to ignore. 

Here's the submission to the court from Watson's attorney, make up your own minds, but he does make an excellent case pointing out all the inconsistencies in the prosecution's case:

https://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/20619132/deshaun-watson-original-answer.pdf

Just what I thought. I wrote that there was some Texas oleboys shennanigans in another thread

[Osiris]

4 minutes ago, MDDawg said:

Just what I thought. I wrote that there was some Texas oleboys shennanigans in another thread

From the link I posted, regarding the sexual act you mentioned:

Quote

Plaintiff admittedly sought to “blackmail” Mr. Watson before she filed suit. She asked him to pay her $30,000 for “indefinite silence” because her encounter would be “embarrassing” if revealed. More importantly, when Mr. Watson’s marketing manager, Bryan Burney, asked her whether she was claiming that something happened against her will, she confirmed that everything that occurred was consensual. Finally, she told Mr. Burney that she wanted a copy of the NDA that she and Mr. Watson signed because she did not want people in her industry to know she had provided oral sex to her massage client. Evidence of her concerns is contained in Mr. Burney’s affidavit and a contemporaneous tape recording of a phone conversation.

 

[Why?!?!?]

4 hours ago, SdBacker80 said:

 Baker hurt this team last year and this coming year by not playing like the #1 overall pick that he was…instead Joe Burrow played like it and the Bengals went to the SB.

Exactly this . . .

I watched cowherd’s podcast with Cabot and she talked about baker’s attitude at the SR bowl and how she asked browns brass  about her concerns and they said that “that’s the attitude we’re looking for. We want the crotch grabbing, flag planting type of mf’er.” Which was a great attitude to pull the franchise out of the abyss with a bunch of less than stellar players. 

Fast forward to ‘20 and Baker was never able to grow past his pride into someone who could lead a team with a bunch of players that were arguably better than him. It didn’t help that Dorsey and the brass treated him like the Jesus of qb’s and let him have so much say in the direction of the team after Hue. Then the new regime took over and he no longer had the sway he once had, which I feel he still thought he should. Now he’s been put in his place by brass and he’s on a team with players that outshine his talent which led him to be defensive, to never accept any blame, to let the media run with the “it’s obj’s fault” after obj was injured and never saying a peep, all of which hurt his relationship with the entire locker room. I can’t remember anyone on the team saying anything good about  Baker other than typical media pleasantries after that whole fiasco.

I think the most detrimental thing he did with his relationship with the browns and ultimately his career was getting that second opinion on his shoulder and not getting the surgery after Watt completely wrecked his shoulder. In hindsight it was pretty clear the team doctor and brass were trying to get him to shut it down . . . But his pride and attitude would not allow for it. 

Then he spent the rest of the season searching for excuses for his poor performance. Leaking injury info, the obj saga (which he helped create), complaining on the coaches and scheme. I wondered why Stefanski was so adamant with the he’s ready to go and ran the offense like Baker wasn’t hurt, but it was obviously because Baker was being such a tool about being “healthy”. Stefanski should’ve shut his ass down anyway of course. 

Sorry for the rant but I have been trying to reconcile this whole thing in my mind. I really like Baker and wish he could’ve been the guy, I think he was the perfect pick to pull the Browns out of the gutter, but not the guy to lead a top tier roster to the promised land. Judging by the outpouring from the rest of the team they all felt the same. 😂 It’s was a crazy roller coaster ride that I enjoyed until it left us stuck at the bottom hoping Seattle will send us a coke and a bag of Doritos for him and his salary  

I am disappointed that we weren’t able to have that Cinderella story of drafting our guy and rolling with him to the ring, but I am excited to see what Watson can do over the next five years. I’m not buying all this hyped up outrage from all these hypocrites on TV . . . They all line up everyday at the teats of the NFL cash cow, so they can all spare me. No franchise is immune to the shenanigans of NFL players. It’s only a stain on Watson’s reputation as far as I’m concerned.  I feel better now . . . Let’s go brownies 

[nickers]

2 hours ago, hish747 said:

Desperate? Nope. They were BOSSES. They did what they had to do to get the best QB available. For the record, at least one other team complained that they would have matched the Browns' offer. Deshaun didn't give them a chance. He actually wanted Cleveland. Contrary to the popular media mentality of belittling the Browns at every opportunity by saying he wanted nothing to do with Cleveland.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/10030422-report-1-nfl-team-wouldve-matched-deshaun-watsons-browns-contract-if-given-chance

 

Puhleeze.. The bleacher Report is a dried up rag... All the same... I hope it works out... Or were back to square 1...