Why is it so hard to believe that Quinn could be a bust?

[Lumbergh]

Atlanta made this mistake 17 years ago with their young QB who was just a hick from So. Miss.

 

Favre never started a game in Atlanta and threw only 4 passes there.

 

Quinn has started 6 games and thrown over 170 passes. He's started 4 other preseason games.

 

It's not like he's an unknown commodity (even though BQ Nation keeps saying that even as the game experience stacks up)

[Bob806]

Man, we use to debate this endlessly in the Couch years. I believe the consensus was that you can find a retread QB that can be very productive for you through free agency, but teams just don't give up and kick a great RB to the curb (unless otherwise a head case), you will have to draft one and usually high.

 

Yeah, while I don't totally disagree, it just gets so much more magnified when you draft a Ki-Jana Carter, Rashan Salaam, Heath Schuler, Tim Couch, etc., and they don't pan out (injury, poor performance, not NFL-ready, whatever). It sets your team back big time.

 

It is indeed a tiresome debate, especially in Cleveland, where we have far too many misses than hits.

 

 

[SoCalDog]

Favre never started a game in Atlanta and threw only 4 passes there.

 

Quinn has started 6 games and thrown over 170 passes. He's started 4 other preseason games.

 

It's not like he's an unknown commodity (even though BQ Nation keeps saying that even as the game experience stacks up)

 

Quinn has started 6 games, but with two OC, 2 HC, two off. systems. He played very well in the first game in his first stint and then broke his throwing hand finger, so discount 1 1/2 of those games that year. Then he has an new OC and HC who can't make up his damn mind on anything and yes, had 1 1/2 poor outings. Well, so did the whole team and the OC who calls the damn plays.

 

the bottom line, no matter what QB you are on bottom for Lumnuts, we don't know for sure yet on Quinn.

 

We DO know for sure that DA definitely is NOT the answer for the best future of the Browns. If you think he is, then the future of this franchise looks pretty damn bad. Almost as bad as DA's 3 INT's in one half.

[Guest Masters]

I love fuzzy logic. 29 NFL starts and 3 preseasons, not enough time to evaluate/develope. 5 1/2 NFL games, 2 1/2 preseasons, plenty of time to evaluate/develope

 

Watch, this will now be turned into me saying go back to BQ and I will be called a "BQ fag" (this is about your straw man and not either QB).

[Lumbergh]

I love fuzzy logic. 29 NFL starts and 3 preseasons, not enough time to evaluate/develope. 5 1/2 NFL games, 2 1/2 preseasons, plenty of time to evaluate/develope

 

Watch, this will now be turned into me saying go back to BQ and I will be called a "BQ fag" (this is about your straw man and not either QB).

 

as I've said before, you get more leash when you throw a shitload of TD passes in your first 6 games, beat the Bengals, beat the Ravens, get named NFL Player of the Week.

 

You go 1-5, throw a total of 3 TDs, you get less leash.

 

and quit spelling develop with an e on the end. I hate being a spelling bitch but you put that word in every damn post.

 

[choco]

this threads awesome. in summary....

 

 

queens ladies are still saying DA sucks.....

 

DA's boys are saying they know, but quinn sucks worse.

 

all of which is true.....at least we scored a touchdown....a feat the domer could get done. que the vast list of excuses used to defend DA 2 years ago....

[hammertime]

You see now this I actually agree with.

 

We'd just disagree on the fact that I believe DA has wrapped his leash around the tree, and I'm not sure he has the ability to get himself unwrapped.

 

Oh my god, the leash around the tree is the worst. Hate it when that happens, damn dog is normally to stupid to get unwrapped. I know what you mean.

[Chip Banks]

Atlanta made this mistake 17 years ago with their young QB who was just a hick from So. Miss.

 

What if it is Anderson who is Favre?

 

Comparison of Favre's first 2 years and Anderson's:

 

1992-93 Green Bay Games 15 Rating 85.3 Completions 302 Attempts 471 Percentage 64.1 Yards 3227 TD 18 INT 13

1993-94 Green Bay Games 16 Rating 72.2 Completions 318 Attempts 522 Percentage 60.9 Yards 3303 TD 19 INT 24

 

2007 CLE Games 16 Rating 82.5 Completions 298 Attempts 527 Percentage 56.5 Yards 3787 TD 29 INT 19

2008 CLE Games 10 Rating 66.5 Completions 142 Attempts 283 Percentage 50.2 Yards 1615 TD 9 INT 8

 

Anderson's 2007 season actually compares favorably to Favre. Favre has always been in a high % YAC system which will affect passer rating, which is heavily driven by completion percentage. Anderson had more yards, more TDs, and a much better TD to INT ratio in 2007. Anderson led his team to a 10-5 record. Favre was 9-6.

 

Anderson's fall off in 2008 was more pronounced than Favre's in 93, but Favre did regress . . . at least statistically. Favre's rating dipped to a sub Couch/Holcomb type rating of 72 in a system that lends itself to high completion percentages. He threw far more picks than TDs.

 

I don't think that Anderson is Favre. And that's going to be a tough comparison for ANY QB. But if the argument is that we know by Anderson's 27 games what we have -- and we determined that by Anderson's regression in 2008 -- the Favre comparison would show an accepted dip in year two.

 

And with Winslow hurt or ineffective for almost the entire 2008 season and Donte Stallworth an invisible replacement for JJ no matter who started, I'd take my chances with Sterling Sharpe, Mark Clayton and Jackie Harris over Braylon Edwards, Donte Stallworth and a revolving door of Steve Heiden and a damaged Kellen Winslow. I'm crazy that way.

 

 

[Chip Banks]

Comparing Anderson to Favre makes as much sense as comparing Quinn to Eli Manning....

 

 

Anderson is to Favre as Quinn is to:

 

A. Peyton Manning

B. Eli Manning

C. Archie Manning

D. Rick Manning

 

So Eli was the answer?

[Guest Masters]

Comparing Anderson to Favre makes as much sense as comparing Quinn to Eli Manning....

 

As I said before, arm strength is where the comparison to Favre starts and ends for DA. When you see 60% and 56% completion percentages, you just stop.

[Solon16]

Taking QBs & RBs high in the draft often has poor results. The glamour positions are high-risk, high-reward.

 

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to point out the failed draft picks of many franchises, starting with our own. Drafting high doesn't guarantee success, just ask the Cowboys, Steelers, & Raiders of the 70s (Rams, Redskins, & Dolphins too), who basically dominated that era and picked anywhere from 21-26 before expansion. Or in today's case, look at the Browns, Raiders, & Lions for instance, drafting high and not getting high returns.

 

You HAVE to get a bit lucky with your picks, even after all the homework these teams do in preparation for the draft.

 

Or good....Can't not take a Qb if your picking #1 in the draft...especially this upcoming year... This is where all QB controversy starts in Cleveland....to pick a QB #1 or not...to me there is no not with us having a franchise LT in place....no question what so ever.

P.S i wanted ricky williams...because we had no Oline to protect a franchise Qb

[Alendor]

the funny thing is DA didn't do much better than BQ did. and everyone is praising him.

[.mz]

Anderson is to Favre as Quinn is to:

 

A. Peyton Manning

B. Eli Manning

C. Archie Manning

D. Rick Manning

 

So Eli was the answer?

 

It was E. Rex Manning

 

 

[Solon16]

Yeah, while I don't totally disagree, it just gets so much more magnified when you draft a Ki-Jana Carter, Rashan Salaam, Heath Schuler, Tim Couch, etc., and they don't pan out (injury, poor performance, not NFL-ready, whatever). It sets your team back big time.

 

It is indeed a tiresome debate, especially in Cleveland, where we have far too many misses than hits.

 

From that logic we should never take QB with the #1 pick...lol....detroit shy'd away for way too long, Bengels shied away way too long, watch Oakland shy away for way too long, but eli manning, rivers,rothlis,ryan,flacco,sanchez don't be surprised if very soon belicheck doesn't jump up in one of these drafts and gets him a top flight QB....If bq truly aint it...time for a new one we have the LT now get the QB

 

[.mz]

LOL I was just looking for another manning and found the same guy!!!!

 

Empire Records is an underrated good/bad movie.

 

[BrownIndian]

And i thought this thread was going to be only about BQ.

[Chip Banks]

As I said before, arm strength is where the comparison to Favre starts and ends for DA. When you see 60% and 56% completion percentages, you just stop.

 

But back to the original point, at least that's ONE ground on which to compare Anderson and Favre as opposed to Quinn and Favre.

 

The second is Anderson's superior first year with his team as QB.

 

The third is that both QBs regressed in their second season.

 

Terry Bradshaw and John Elway spent most of their careers completing about 56% of their passes. In fact, Bradshaw eclipsed 60% one year -- his last. Dan Marino spent the majority of his career completing about 57 or 58% of his passes. Only 5 out of his 17 years he had a completion % of over 60%.

 

A QB can be effective and not complete 60% of his passes or can be ineffective completing 65% of his passes. Frye completed almost 65% of his passes in 2006-2007. Sipe only reached a 60% completion percentage in one year with Cleveland . . . barely and Kosar had more seasons under 60% than over 60%. He competed his highest percentage in his worst year 1992 (66%) and one of his lowest percentages in his best year 1986 (58%).

 

In isolation it's one of the biggest garbage stats in football. One 12 yard pass equals 3 four yard passes.

 

Give me Anderson's TD passes, yards and TD/INT ratio in 2007 over Favre's completion percentage in 1992 any day.

 

 

 

[Guest Masters]

But back to the original point, at least that's ONE ground on which to compare Anderson and Favre as opposed to Quinn and Favre.

 

The second is Anderson's superior first year with his team as QB.

 

The third is that both QBs regressed in their second season.

 

Terry Bradshaw and John Elway spent most of their careers completing about 56% of their passes. In fact, Bradshaw eclipsed 60% one year -- his last. Dan Marino spent the majority of his career completing about 57 or 58% of his passes. Only 5 out of his 17 years he had a completion % of over 60%.

 

A QB can be effective and not complete 60% of his passes or can be ineffective completing 65% of his passes. Frye completed almost 65% of his passes in 2006-2007. Sipe only reached a 60% completion percentage in one year with Cleveland . . . barely and Kosar had more seasons under 60% than over 60%. He competed his highest percentage in his worst year 1992 (66%) and one of his lowest percentages in his best year 1986 (58%).

 

In isolation it's one of the biggest garbage stats in football. One 12 yard pass equals 3 four yard passes.

 

Give me Anderson's TD passes, yards and TD/INT ratio in 2007 over Favre's completion percentage in 1992 any day.

 

There should be no comparison between Favre and Quinn. I'd fully agree that whole thing was silly.

 

As to the middle there, I'd say you also start getting into different era's a football, and statistical comparisons get fuzzy. You got QBs who spent their careers in an era where DBs could chuck WR all over field and knock them on their ass at the LOS if they wanted. The rules of the passing game are far different today than Favre in the early 90's, Elway and Kosar in the 80's (and early 90's for Elway), or the 70's for Bradshaw.

 

In the NFL today, 60% seems to be the general barrometer used.

 

[mopaji]

Really? The GM didn't line everyone up , coaches, scouts, ball boys, and janitors in training camp in 2008 and say 'DA IS OUR GUY'?? they didn't give him a huge contract after 2007?? You are right though, this is his make or break season...so far he is 0-1.

 

Ahh one of my favorite stock replies. If you thought for one second that DA was secured that position your out of your mind. Every year he has had a backup QB behind him who sells a lot more jerseys, has a lot more commercials, and has more reporters at his locker than he does. It has never been his job. And the contract was a reward for 2007, not a statement about his future.

 

I can remember when he was doing really well in 2007 and people were kind of holding there breath and asking "well, what about Brady?" It has never been his job....until now.

[Guest ATENEARS]

Ahh one of my favorite stock replies. If you thought for one second that DA was secured that position your out of your mind. Every year he has had a backup QB behind him who sells a lot more jerseys, has a lot more commercials, and has more reporters at his locker than he does. It has never been his job. And the contract was a reward for 2007, not a statement about his future.

 

I can remember when he was doing really well in 2007 and people were kind of holding there breath and asking "well, what about Brady?" It has never been his job....until now.

 

The best is when someone throws up their arms and says, "Oh great, now Brady's psych is gonna be damaged!"

 

 

[Guest ATENEARS]

I personally prefer when people actually believe DA is getting better.

 

I personally prefer when people think others are better (than DA).

[mopaji]

So then what was the point of your post? He still has that back up behind him. That back up still sells more jerseys I'll bet (likely not as many more now...). And people will still be calling for Brady the next time DA has another 23 QBR game. Mangini picked Quinn to start first, then went to DA.

 

what exactly has changed?

 

That you're convinced DA can actually be a real QB some day in this league? Nope don't think that has ever changed. Delusions are hard to shake.

 

 

Yes I am convinced he WILL be a starter for the rest of his career here or somewhere else. I hope its here. The difference now is that I believe Lerner has finally figured it out after two coaches have showed him, that Brady cannot play in this league. So now we can work on DA's game and develope him. I wouldn't call that a delusion in fact; it's actually based on real life observations and a body of work. Quinnies have absolutely nothing to go on but insist he is better than DA. That is more of a delusion.

 

 

[EdwardG]

One pattern we keep seeing is Quinn "haters" posting that the fan base loves Quinn. Well, it's true that many of us want to see BQ succeed because of local ties, but I don't know anyone who doesn't see bust potential with him. Most QBs are busts. Everyone has doubts about him given what they've seen so far.

 

Your question is beside the point, though.

 

If DA were going to lead the team to 10 wins and a playoff spot, then I say "Play DA." However, this team is not good enough to come anywhere near the playoffs, so why are we spending this year by NOT evaluating Quinn? He needs to play against lesser defenses like Cincy and Buffalo. This is why I keep coming back to what is the main question: How does this decision strategically help the Browns find a long-term solution at QB? Perhaps the brass feels they've seen enough in 10 quarters against very good defenses to say that BQ doesn't have it. I think it's ridiculous. DA is a backup on a quality team. BQ needs further evaluation and this is a perfect year to do it. If Quinn proves to be a bust this year, you have the higher draft pick and you move on past this year knowing that you need a new QB.

[Guest ATENEARS]

I just read this whole thread and I want to stab my eyes out!

People are so stupid.

Stan is pulling your chains but you cant help yourselves,keep argiung till you get mad enough to make ultimatums or throw a brick through your monitors.

Dummies...

 

You know what drives me?

 

It's checking people at the door and exposing their beliefs on what they've read or what they hope or based on the next guys opinion. You can never be wrong if you go with your gut, watch the games and go by what you've witnessed.

 

This young crowd here though can sway in the wind. Their views change from one national publication to another, written by guys 600 -to- 1,200 miles away, based on a token interview or based on anothers stretch.

 

Don't blame me for trying to get them real. Don't blame me for trying to get them to know and back 100% what they are spouting off about. Don't blame me if they start to wiggle and squirm and show evidence that their big bad stands of yesterday were exsposed as paper thin today.

 

Man-up ... If you saw great things in Quinn, lets hear about them and your reasoning why you sunk your teeth deep into him. Let's hear why they haven't blossomed YET. Let's hear some confidence here instead of the democratic play of we back this guy because he ain't that guy.

 

Grow a set and bring game, or serious get the fuck out or quit posting and revert to reading.

 

There are a bunch of yap dogs on this forum. They bring nothing, they add nothing. Stop reading and start watching. Stop venturing over to the OBR and hanging on every word that a guy writes who dominated at Dugeons and dragons in high school. Or better yet, stay there, they have a forum.

 

You can be wrong, but man-up and be wrong and move-on, don't resort to yap dog bullshit and beat-off on the 'Thanks' button of your Alltel friends.

 

 

[Chip Banks]

As to the middle there, I'd say you also start getting into different era's a football, and statistical comparisons get fuzzy. You got QBs who spent their careers in an era where DBs could chuck WR all over field and knock them on their ass at the LOS if they wanted. The rules of the passing game are far different today than Favre in the early 90's, Elway and Kosar in the 80's (and early 90's for Elway), or the 70's for Bradshaw.

 

In the NFL today, 60% seems to be the general barrometer used.

 

I acknowledge this point to some extent. But I will say that when some of those old-time guys were putting tons of points on the board completing 57-58% of their passes, Montana was doing the same by completing 65-70% of his passes with regularity. Most offensive systems have incorporated various elements of Walsh's WCO system leading to higher completion percentages. Although all the systems have mixed, Chud's schemes were more Coryellish/Turner than Martzist or WCO. In his limited starts Quinn completed only 50% of his passes too -- yet was more effective than he's been this year completing 60% of his passes. Daboll/Mangini seem to tend even more toward the Coryell-Turner system from what I've seen. At least it seemed that way last week when the offense was finally competent enough to divine a strategy.

 

Maybe they just adjusted based on the QB? Belichick disciples are generally said to run the Erhardt-Perkins system, which relies on a ball-control running game and a shorter passing game . . . in theory. But at least with Brady, the offense really evolved back into something resembling a Coryell offense even if it uses different terminology. Weiss, in contrast ran the true Erhardt-Perkins system with Quinn and continues to do so with Clausen.

 

 

Dilfer contrasted Anderson and Quinn saying Quinn is good at throwing to open receivers and Anderson is good at throwing receivers open. The former is a prototype WCO QB and the latter is a prototype Coryell/Turner QB.

 

In the modern era, McNabb has been pretty successful as a more-often-than-not 57-58% completion percentage guy ... and he's in a WCO-based system.

 

You can still knock a guy on his ass at the LOS. Seems hard to remember since we haven't had press coverage corners since the days of the Dawgs.

[Guest ATENEARS]

One pattern we keep seeing is Quinn "haters" posting that the fan base loves Quinn. Well, it's true that many of us want to see BQ succeed because of local ties, but I don't know anyone who doesn't see bust potential with him. Most QBs are busts. Everyone has doubts about him given what they've seen so far.

 

Your question is beside the point, though.

 

If DA were going to lead the team to 10 wins and a playoff spot, then I say "Play DA." However, this team is not good enough to come anywhere near the playoffs, so why are we spending this year by NOT evaluating Quinn? He needs to play against lesser defenses like Cincy and Buffalo. This is why I keep coming back to what is the main question: How does this decision strategically help the Browns find a long-term solution at QB? Perhaps the brass feels they've seen enough in 10 quarters against very good defenses to say that BQ doesn't have it. I think it's ridiculous. DA is a backup on a quality team. BQ needs further evaluation and this is a perfect year to do it. If Quinn proves to be a bust this year, you have the higher draft pick and you move on past this year knowing that you need a new QB.

 

This will be the third time I repeat this today, but I don't mind.

 

I like Anderson in there because he opens up the offense so that we can evaluate EVERYONE, from the young RB's and receivers to the gelling of the line. It allows our first time play caller an opportunity to dig deeper into his play book as well. Quinn was suffocating us. Had we had a veteran who could stretch the field back in 1999 and allow us to properly evaluate who we had and who we needed to get rid of, we'd be a lot further along today. However, we discarded O-linemen that went on to start for many years with much better teams, including Super Bowl teams.

 

If DA starts getting read like a book, which I think he will, and we can't make adjustments to play his way out of it and we start playing in a rut and things stop flowing, then we make another switch and hook them jumper cables back up and jump-start the somabitch again.

 

I'm not evaluating QB's this season, I'm evaluating the other components. With that said, Anderson gives us the better evaluation of the rest of the skill positions and can keep us in games better. If the kid improves to the point where he catches our eye for next season, great, if not we move on with those players who did.

 

Stop evaluating QB's and start looking at how this team is making adjustments and who's growing and playing through the hills and valleys. Weeks 1-3 were a waste of an evaluation period, we tweaked at least five positions and we got a better display last Sunday. Let's keep moving, so far I've seen no one worth back-tracking for to pick-up, brush off, and cater to.

[Bob806]

From that logic we should never take QB with the #1 pick...lol....detroit shy'd away for way too long, Bengels shied away way too long, watch Oakland shy away for way too long, but eli manning, rivers,rothlis,ryan,flacco,sanchez don't be surprised if very soon belicheck doesn't jump up in one of these drafts and gets him a top flight QB....If bq truly aint it...time for a new one we have the LT now get the QB

 

Yes, if Mangini & Co. truly believe we have the right LT (which we probably do in Joe Thomas), then by all means draft the QB.

 

Me, I'd draft an impact defensive player first. Afterall, we keep hiring these defensive-minded head coaches, so it's time to focus on playing ATTACKING defense so we can actually compete in the AFC North.

 

ps- What if we would have gotten all of New Orleans' draft picks, as was rumored, for Ricky Williams? I wonder if we would have f-ed that up too.

[Guest Masters]

Yes, if Mangini & Co. truly believe we have the right LT (which we probably do in Joe Thomas), then by all means draft the QB.

 

 

ps- What if we would have gotten all of New Orleans' draft picks, as was rumored, for Ricky Williams? I wonder if we would have f-ed that up too.

 

Pretty sure CLE has the right LT. Two Pro-bowls in two years is what franchise LT do.

 

Oh, CLE would have found a way to f-up that draft too.

[Tobalaz]

I've never said I believed Quinn was the future.

I liked his college mechanics where he was always prepared to throw and only tucked the ball past the los and liked his footwork.

I thought most of his "big throws" were because of those tall ND receivers he had.

I had hope since Trent Edwards was referred to as "a poor man's Brady Quinn" and Trent turned out pretty decent.

 

What I DID say was DA isn't the answer and we need to see if Quinn is or else we're going to have to draft another qb.

DA had problems with the short pass, reading defenses, poor footwork and locked on to receivers all to often. He regressed more often than progressed.

I don't HATE the guy, I've seen enough of him. He's not the franchise, franchise qbs improve and don't go all over like a roller coaster week to week. Consistency is a key trait you want out of your starter.

 

 

[Guest 88fingerslewy]

You know what drives me?

 

It's checking people at the door and exposing their beliefs on what they've read or what they hope or based on the next guys opinion. You can never be wrong if you go with your gut, watch the games and go by what you've witnessed.

 

This young crowd here though can sway in the wind. Their views change from one national publication to another, written by guys 600 -to- 1,200 miles away, based on a token interview or based on anothers stretch.

 

Don't blame me for trying to get them real. Don't blame me for trying to get them to know and back 100% what they are spouting off about. Don't blame me if they start to wiggle and squirm and show evidence that their big bad stands of yesterday were exsposed as paper thin today.

 

Man-up ... If you saw great things in Quinn, lets hear about them and your reasoning why you sunk your teeth deep into him. Let's hear why they haven't blossomed YET. Let's hear some confidence here instead of the democratic play of we back this guy because he ain't that guy.

 

Grow a set and bring game, or serious get the xxxx out or quit posting and revert to reading.

 

There are a bunch of yap dogs on this forum. They bring nothing, they add nothing. Stop reading and start watching. Stop venturing over to the OBR and hanging on every word that a guy writes who dominated at Dugeons and dragons in high school. Or better yet, stay there, they have a forum.

 

You can be wrong, but man-up and be wrong and move-on, don't resort to yap dog bullshit and beat-off on the 'Thanks' button of your Alltel friends.

Soooo calling people pansies and other name-calling is "Manning-up?" Anyone who doesn't share the same beliefs as you is attacked personally for expressing their opinions. You're like the drunk uncle that hosts a X-mas party that no one wants to say anything to 'cause it's HIS party. This cyber tough guy shit is lame and tired. You intimidate no one. Have a little class, you're a grown man.