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Lee a Mariner, Halladay A Phillie Wow


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Cliff and Felix anchoring the rotation with that great defense behind them....I guess they still don't have any big RBI guy but that's pretty scary.


It's just about impossible for Halladay to be better than Cliff was for the Phillies last year, I wonder if they got any other pieces in the deal.

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Stark sez that it's "close" to being a done deal:


Sources: Halladay to Phils, Lee to M's close

By Jayson Stark



A three-way deal that would send Roy Halladay to Philadelphia and Cliff Lee to Seattle is "close" but "not done," according to two sources familiar with the negotiations.


Trading Aces


It looks like the Phillies might be dealing one ace for another. It could still be an upgrade for Philadelphia, though, as Roy Halladay fared slightly better than Cliff Lee last season.


As part of the deal, Halladay would agree to a three-year extension through 2013, with a vesting option that could lengthen the deal by another year or two, one source said. The extension is expected to guarantee Halladay in the neighborhood of $60 million, plus the $15.75 million he would make in 2010, the final year of his current contract. According to a source who spoke with two teams involved in the trade, Toronto would get highly regarded Mariners pitching prospect Phillippe Aumont, Phillies catching prospect Travis d'Arnaud and another Phillies prospect in exchange for Halladay. Indications are that the Phillies have balked at Toronto's repeated requests for outfielder Domonic Brown, and the Phillies are offering highly touted outfielder Michael Taylor instead. Seattle would also send two prospects to Philadelphia in exchange for Lee, who is a year away from free agency. As of late Monday afternoon, the extension had not been agreed upon. And the Blue Jays and Phillies were still haggling over the final prospect. In addition, Phillies doctors would have to sign off on Halladay's physical.


SI.com first reported that the Phillies were close to acquiring Halladay.


Halladay has told friends he'd take less than market money to sign with the Phillies -- something in the neighborhood of five years and $100 million, sources told ESPN.com.


Halladay was entering the final year of his Toronto contract.


Lee has told the Phillies he would like to stay but wants market.


The Phillies tried to acquire Halladay last season but couldn't agree to terms with the Toronto Blue Jays. They then dealt for Lee instead.


Halladay, 32, is 148-76 lifetime with a 3.43 ERA. He won the 2003 Cy Young Award and finished in the top five in the Cy Young voting four other times.


Halladay went 17-10 with a 2.79 ERA in 32 starts for Toronto last season. He threw 239 innings and led the league with nine complete games.


Lee, who was acquired from the Indians on July 29 for four minor leaguers, quickly became Philadelphia's ace. Lee posted a 3.39 ERA in 12 starts for the Phillies and then went 4-0 with a 1.56 mark in five postseason outings, including 2-0 in the World Series.


Lee, the 2008 AL Cy Young winner with Cleveland, will make $8 million in 2010 and then be eligible for free agency.


Jayson Stark covers Major League Baseball for ESPN.com. Information from The Associated Press contributed to this report





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Law had this to say about the Lackey signing:


"I think it's clear Boston is just going for run prevention: they will shore up the defense and pitching and worry about offense second. They may even go try to grab an outfield bat on the cheap from the leftovers. They could even give Jeremy Hermida a true test drive. As for a big bat? They've been so resolute at holding on to Clay Buchholz that I can't see them rushing to give him away unless they're getting a top-shelf impact bat in return. Fans should be patient on the bats."


And Rosenthal reports that the Sox are also close to signing Cameron:


Boston appears to be on the verge of a deal with Mike Cameron, according to Ken Rosenthal of Fox. He says the talk right now is for two years.


If the Red Sox do land Cameron, our earlier discussions of Theo Epstein essentially dumping out of what many assume he feels is an overpriced market for Jason Bay and Matt Holliday seems more and more likely.


Cameron, of course, has been a great defensive CF for years, though a regular strikeout victim at the plate. He does provide power, however, and as a cheap depth option in the outfield, would be about a night and day difference in LF from Bay, who most AL teams would plug into a DH role. In Fenway, of course, he drew wall ball duty.





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BTW, Rosenthal either heard something about a Lee/Halladay deal or his Spidey-sense was on over-drive a couple of days back:


You want a blockbuster? How about one that includes not one, but two former Cy Young Award winners?


I have no proof that the Phillies are trying to move left-hander Cliff Lee as part of a three- or four-team trade for Blue Jays right-hander Roy Halladay.


But I've got a hunch.


We know the Phillies preferred Halladay to Lee last July. We know they are one of his top choices, an East Coast team that trains close to his home in Dunedin, Fla. And we know from published reports that Phillies GM Ruben Amaro Jr. met last week with Lee's agent, Darek Braunecker, about a possible contract extension.


I'm guessing that discussion did not go well.


Both Lee, 31, and Halladay, 32, are free agents after next season. Halladay likely will require a contract extension to waive his no-trade clause. Perfect! By exchanging Lee for Halladay, the Phillies would ensure that they gain long-term control of an ace — Halladay, the one they wanted all along.


So, here's the deal: Lee goes somewhere for prospects. The Phillies include the prospects in their package for Halladay, maybe keep one or two for themselves. Halladay gets his extension, the Jays get a bounty of young players and some lucky team gets Lee for one year at his bargain salary of $9 million.


We know the Jays are entertaining three- and four-team scenarios involving Halladay; their new general manager, Alex Anthopoulos, confirmed that to Toronto-area reporters last week.


We even know, from major-league sources, that the Jays are open-minded enough to consider paying part of Halladay's $15.75 million salary next season to get better players in return and facilitate a deal.


The Phillies, stretched to their budgetary limit, might need the help.


They obviously would stand a better chance of winning the World Series if they had both Lee and Halladay, even if Lee was all but certain to depart after next season. But trading right-hander Joe Blanton, who stands to make about $7 million in salary arbitration, might not provide enough of a benefit in dollars and players.


Trading Lee, on the other hand, would help the Phillies save an additional $2 million or so in salary. Trading Lee also would bring the Phillies better prospects, enabling them to send fewer of their own top young players to the Jays.


The Phillies would not get as strong a package for Lee as they would give for Halladay. Nor would they get as strong a package as they gave the Indians last July; Lee had greater value then because of the possibility that he could influence two pennant races instead of one.


True, other teams might balk at acquiring Lee if they sensed that the Phillies were concerned about signing him long-term. But c'mon, we're talking about Cliff Lee. The free-agent and trade markets are so thin in starting pitching, the idea of getting Lee at a below-market salary for one season surely would cause some club to jump — and maybe even jump high.


The Dodgers would make sense; they long have coveted Lee. The Angels would make sense; they're in the mix for Halladay. The Yankees and Red Sox forever loom as possibilities, and even a mid-revenue team such as the Brewers could afford Lee.


I've got an even better possibility, though — and again, I'm just going on a hunch.


The Mariners.


We know that the M's are pursuing virtually every available starting pitcher. We also know that they would need to make a massive financial investment to sign right-hander John Lackey, the best pitcher on the market, and then extend righty Felix Hernandez, one of the best pitchers on the planet.


Acquiring and signing Halladay would create the same problem, assuming they could even pull off such a deal; the M's might not be willing to part with the necessary talent, and Halladay might not approve a trade to Seattle. One year of Lee, however, would make sense — a lot more sense than say, five years of Lackey, two years of Doug Davis or one year of Ben Sheets.


Best of all, the Mariners could make it work.


Two of the Mariners' top prospects, outfielder Michael Saunders and right-hander Phillipe Aumont, are Canadian. How appropriate: Anthopoulos is Canadian, team president Paul Beeston is Canadian and the organization is re-emphasizing all things Canadian. A Dominican infielder, Carlos Triunfel, also would figure to be on the Jays' wish list, along with an American catcher, Adam Moore.


The Jays would not land all of those players; they might get only two, with the Phillies providing the others. The Phils would be reluctant to put lefty J.A. Happ or minor-league right-hander Kyle Drabek in the same trade as Lee, but they could start their end of the deal with one of two minor-league outfielders, Domonic Brown or Michael Taylor, and go from there.


You want a blockbuster? A trade involving Lee and Halladay would make the three-team Curtis Granderson trade look like a yawner.


I'm not saying it will happen.


But such a deal would make perfect sense.





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I saw the Rosenthal report a couple of days ago and just thought it was

hot stove bluster


How about Halladay wanting to go to the team of his choice?


Good for Him, and Good for Cliff Lee who wants market value.


He is gonna have to pitch his ass off again this year to do it.


But remember when he wasn't good enough to make the Tribe out of ST

as a 5th starter when they sent him down and he refined and located his fastball

better and look where he is now.


And Bully for the Blue Jays who hold all the cards and should holdup the Phiiles

for the final prospect. Imagine this sceneario where the Phillies have to say to their fanbase..


Sorry, we couldn't get Halladay they wanted too much



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I saw the Rosenthal report a couple of days ago and just thought it was

hot stove bluster


How about Halladay wanting to go to the team of his choice?


Good for Him, and Good for Cliff Lee who wants market value.


He is gonna have to pitch his ass off again this year to do it.


But remember when he wasn't good enough to make the Tribe out of ST

as a 5th starter when they sent him down and he refined and located his fastball

better and look where he is now.


And Bully for the Blue Jays who hold all the cards and should holdup the Phiiles

for the final prospect. Imagine this sceneario where the Phillies have to say to their fanbase..


Sorry, we couldn't get Halladay, they wanted too much

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Looks like the A's are involved in a minor way


Halladay Trade Update

The parameters of the complicated Roy Halladay trade continued to take shape Tuesday. The Toronto Blue Jays will reportedly get top pitching prospect Kyle Drabek, outfielder Michael Taylor and catcher Travis d'Arnaud from the Philadelphia Phillies in exchange for the ace right-hander. Click here for Mike Wilner's salute to the Doc.


ESPN.com reported the Blue Jays would then flip Taylor to the Oakland Athletics for infield prospect Brett Wallace.


Halladay and the Phillies also agreed to a contract that would set the wheeling and dealing into motion, according to ESPN.com.


The Phillies are then to send left-hander Cliff Lee to the Seattle Mariners for prospects, believed to include right-hander Phillippe Aumont of Gatineau, Que., and outfielder Tyson Gillies of Langley, B.C.


As part of the deal, the Blue Jays will also send US$6 million to help cover Halladay's $15.75-million salary this season, according to multiple reports.


The transaction still has many moving parts and had yet to be finalized.





From our friends at USS Mariner


The Deal As We Know It

Dave · December 14, 2009 at 11:24 pm · Filed Under Mariners

The trade has had moving parts all day long, but as we understand it currently, it looks something like this from the M’s perspective:


Phillippe Aumont, Tyson Gillies, and a third player rumored to be J.C. Ramirez for Cliff Lee.


There’s a bunch of other stuff going back and forth from the Blue Jays and Phillies, but this is the relevant portion of the trade to M’s fans. And, to that, I just have to say that this is so amazingly awesome, I’m still trying to figure out how on earth this is actually happening.


Aumont is a good relief prospect. He could be in the majors this year, and he’s got all-star closer upside. Gillies is a potential high OBP center fielder with speed. Ramirez has the best arm in the system. They’re all prospects. And the whole lot of them aren’t worth three months of Cliff Lee, much less an entire season. Breaking it down numerically, since that’s what we do here.


Lee projects as roughly a +5 win pitcher for 2010. Given the expected cost of wins on the market, that makes him worth about $20 to $25 million for the upcoming season. However, the dollar per win values for high end players are usually based on multi-year contracts, as players of this caliber trade a little bit of cash for long term security. Since the Mariners are assuming no long term risk, his value is probably more like $25 to $30 million.


If the M’s can’t sign Lee to an extension, it’s almost a mortal lock that he’ll be a Type A free agent, which means that the team will get two draft picks if he leaves via free agency. The combined value of the two compensation picks is another $5 to $10 million, depending on what specific picks the M’s would receive.


So, the asset that is Lee for 2010 plus potential draft picks is worth somewhere between $30 and $40 million. His 2010 salary? $8 million. He’s a $22 to $32 million net asset. That’s enormous – he’s one of the most valuable properties in baseball.


The three prospects the M’s gave up? None of them are top notch, elite guys. They all have potential, but their risk-reward profiles do not put them in the top tier of minor leaguers. Based on the work of Victor Wang, we can quantify the present value of Aumont and Ramirez at about $5 million each and Gillies at about $3 million. That’s $13 million in total, or about half of what Lee is worth.


This is, quite frankly, a heist. The Mariners are getting a Cy Young caliber pitcher for some decent-but-not-great prospects. They aren’t giving up Morrow. They aren’t giving up Saunders. They aren’t even giving up Triunfel. And yet, they walk away with one of the five or six best pitchers in baseball.


Forget that we probably only have Lee for a year. We’re paying for about two months worth of his services and getting four months for free.


Seriously, dance in the streets. Build a bust of Zduriencik and place it on your mantle. Name your first born son Jack and your daughter Jackie. When this becomes official, hug someone. This trade is that good.






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Great post John. Not that I'm bitter or anything, but here's hoping all three of those now-Phillies prospects flame out. And Viva Carrasco.


I'm not a big Keith Law fan, but here's his take (also pretty satisfying as a Tribe fan)


The Seattle Mariners: They made the biggest gain in this series of transactions by landing Cliff Lee. They're giving up two of their top pitching prospects in Phillippe Aumont and Juan Ramirez, but there's a good chance both end up in the bullpen; Aumont is already there after hip problems and some makeup questions (he broke his non-throwing hand by punching a locker in August).


He gets great life on a low-to-mid-90s fastball and should get plenty of ground balls as he learns to command the pitch better; unlike a lot of low-slot right-handers, he hasn't shown a pronounced platoon split against left-handed hitters. Ramirez has electric stuff but hasn't missed a lot of bats in full-season ball and his ultra-skinny build has raised long-term durability questions -- although, unlike Aumont, he continues to start and should remain there until he proves he can't handle it. Tyson Gillies is among the fastest men in baseball and has a decent approach at the plate, but guys with below-average power often find their ability to work the count compromised by higher-level pitchers who realize they can challenge those hitters in the zone with some impunity, and unless he becomes a plus-plus defender in the outfield he's going to end up a fourth outfielder.


So, it's a large price to pay for one year of Lee because they're giving up so many years of control of three almost-certain big leaguers -- but trading second-tier prospects for one impact big leaguer is nearly always a good value because of the benefit of having so much major-league value occupying just one roster spot. Seattle sees an opportunity for 2010 with the Angels losing John Lackey and Chone Figgins, and while the losses do deplete Seattle's system, the Mariners are not barren (they still have Dustin Ackley and Alex Liddi) and making a legitimate run at a division title is a pretty good reason to empty out your farm.


The Philadelphia Phillies: They swap one ace for a very slightly better ace in Roy Halladay, whose value over Lee may be as much in his stronger track record as in pitching ability. The price they pay for this small improvement is a major dent in their farm system, trading a superior package of prospects to Toronto for the three players they landed from Seattle in the exchange for Lee. I'm not sure why the Phillies -- who were the favorites to win the NL East in 2010 before this move -- were motivated to make the trade; yes, they can sign Halladay to an extension and couldn't sign Lee, but that's independent of the deals used to obtain one pitcher and trade the other. They might be half a win better in 2010, a whole win at most, but deleted a lot of value from what was a solid farm system before they made the moves.

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Without Question Cimo the Mariners are the clear winners in this deal

giving up a couple of prospects not named Morrow or Saunders


They should be dancing in the streets of Seattle over this one


And Even if they don't sign Lee thy should be able to get Type A Comp for him


Starbucks for Everybody



Too bad the Phillies opted to give Jamie Moyer 8 mil for this year


It probably cost them a year of Halladay, Lee and Hamels

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I'm not a big Keith Law fan, but here's his take (also pretty satisfying as a Tribe fan)


Curious why you feel this way, CIMO.


What don't you like about Law? His tone or his opinions? I think the guy comes across as over-the-top arrogant but I most often tend to agree with his opinions and have come to trust his evaluations of prospects. He's kind of Will Carroll with smarts and credibility.


And what do you find satisfying about this deal as a Tribe fan? Not arguing you shouldn't feel that way, just looking for any and all reasons to feel satisfied about Toronto securing "more impact talent than Cleveland and Philadelphia received in total in the two Cliff Lee deals" in this deal. They're winners in this thing too, given the fact Halladay was going to be moved, even if their entire fan-base isn't going to feel that way for a long time.


Sooo....help me feel sat-is-fied!



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For Keith Law....I can't really put my finger on it. He's always the first national guy I turn to about prospects, but he doesn't seem too....I don't know, solid. It seems like the only projections he has are 4th outfielder/6th starter/etc or impact player. He obviously knows what he's talking about, I guess I just don't like his opinions.


As for the satisfaction....it's just how I'm conditioned these days. "Satisfying" as in "thank god the Phillies didn't embarrass us." I didn't really care about the Blue Jays....even if they're the "winners" of the whole thing, I'll still take Shapiro's overall track record on trades (LaPorta was a top-25 guy last year and Santana should be top-5 this year, not even counting Choo and Droob and Sizemore... we'll see how the Jays' new guys do). Just glad the Phillies themselves didn't rub our faces in it.

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As for the satisfaction....it's just how I'm conditioned these days.


Hey, I'll buy that.


BTW, here's Castro's mailbag from a couple days ago if anyone missed it:


12/14/09 6:48 PM EST

Inbox: Does Acta favor a stable lineup?

MLB.com's Castrovince answers Tribe fans' questions


By Anthony Castrovince / MLB.com

While covering the Winter Meetings in Indianapolis, I walked into the Westin workout room and found superagent Scott Boras doing situps.


Man, this guy is as good as advertised. I asked him to give me a spot on a bench press of 130 pounds, and he negotiated me up to 160.


The Tribe was quiet last week, but the Inbox questions kept coming. Let's see what was on your minds.


I'm not too familiar with Manny Acta. Does he set a lineup and let it go, or does he experiment like Eric Wedge did on a daily basis? Wedge was too enamored with the super-utility players.

-- Michael F., Galloway, Ohio


All managers have to work with what they've got. Acta is inheriting a club that, after much trial and error, is pretty much set at shortstop (Asdrubal Cabrera), third base (Jhonny Peralta), left field (Michael Brantley), center field (Grady Sizemore) and right field (Shin-Soo Choo).


Behind the plate, Lou Marson projects as the regular, with Wyatt Toregas backing him up. The only question at first base is Matt LaPorta's health. At second base, Luis Valbuena will likely be protected against left-handed pitchers. And Travis Hafner should be physically capable of playing on more of an everyday basis.


So, with all that said, the lineups of 2010 have a chance to be more static than the lineups of '09, and it's certainly Acta's intent to see that through.


Wedge didn't have a set lineup at all last season, and that's in part a function of what he was given to work with and in part a function of what became an obsession with versatility. It was clear in Spring Training last year that the Indians would have a lot of moving parts in their lineup, but Wedge also made some strange decisions, most notably by having Ryan Garko play the outfield on occasion.


Has Acta given any indication on where he thinks Sizemore fits in the lineup?

-- Kevin H., Westminster, Md.


Unless something drastic changes, Sizemore will be leading off in Acta's Opening Day lineup. Brantley really sparked the top of the lineup after his September promotion to the big leagues, reaching base safely in 25 of 28 games, stealing a few bags and coming up with some big hits. He gave the Indians every reason to believe he can one day fill that leadoff role full-time, perhaps by the end of the 2010 season.


But for now, with Brantley likely to go through some inevitable rookie-year adjustments, Acta feels it's best to put him in a low-pressure spot at the outset.


Any speculation on who we're going to get for Kelly Shoppach?

-- Kevin K., Independence, Ohio


Though the Indians won't confirm who they have to choose from on or before the Dec. 20 deadline, I'm hearing it will be one of two right-handed pitchers -- Mitch Talbot or Joseph Cruz.


Talbot is 26 and made his Major League debut with the Rays in '08, making three appearances and posting an 11.17 ERA. Shoulder and elbow problems limited him to 15 total starts in the Minors this past season, including 10 at Triple-A Durham. He finished off the year by making six starts in the Arizona Fall League.


Cruz is 21 and spent '09 at Class A Bowling Green, where he went 5-8 with a 4.04 ERA in 21 starts, striking out 99 and walking 26 in 98 innings of work.


Did the Indians have to cover all of Jake Westbrook's contract for his injury-plagued '08 and '09 seasons? I remember hearing something about the Tribe having insurance policies on their high-investment players.

-- Nathan H., Stevensville, Ontario


Without giving specifics, Mark Shapiro told me the Indians received "meaningful" relief from Westbrook's 2009 contract, but obviously not enough to significantly adjust the Tribe's economic picture. If Westbrook is unable to go at the start of '10, more financial relief would be in order.


Who is going to play first base? I hope it's not Andy Marte. We need someone with power.

-- Ken M., Spring Lake, Mich.


Well, it could be Marte, if LaPorta isn't ready for the start of the regular season. Or perhaps, in that scenario, the Indians would give reigning International League batting champ Jordan Brown his first opportunity in the big leagues.


By and large, though, the expectation is that LaPorta will be the Tribe's regular at first. In the last two months of '09, Marte didn't exactly convince the Indians he's ready for an everyday opportunity at this level. He remains out of Minor League options and will have to make the team out of Spring Training camp, or else be exposed to the waiver wire again.


For the record, Marte is currently nursing a strained oblique, so he's not active in the Dominican Winter League.


I think the Indians passed on a rare coaching gem in Torey Lovullo and they are probably going to regret letting him go the Red Sox. I don't think they ever got a chance to go as deep into the interview process as they wanted to. Did the Tribe jump the gun sooner than they wanted to because of Acta's Houston candidacy?

-- Lisa F., Ashtabula, Ohio


While the Houston situation did speed up the Indians' timetable on making this hire, the odds were already stacked against Lovullo. From the beginning of the interview process, it was pretty well-established within the front office that an outside perspective was needed, so an in-house candidate like Lovullo was not expected to get the position.


To Lovullo's credit, however, he did impress the Indians enough during his phone interview to be granted an in-person interview in Cleveland. And when Lovullo was passed over not just for the managing gig but also a position on Acta's staff, the writing was on the wall for him to leave.


Acta said he was impressed with Lovullo when he interviewed him for a coaching spot. But the job Lovullo would have been best-suited for -- third-base and infield coach -- was the only one filled by a guy with no previous career ties to the Tribe, Steve Smith. Lovullo certainly has the skills to be a Major League manager someday.


Could you print quotes from Shapiro or Paul Dolan in which, after the trades of Lee and Martinez, one of them said they could have kept both of them but that would have meant they would go into the offseason with no ability to add any players? This would seem to imply that since they traded them both and saved a lot of money, they would be able to be active and add pitching. Would they care to explain?

-- Steve, Wooster, Ohio


It appears you've misinterpreted the implications of those trades. The Indians made them not to free up payroll for the construction of the 2010 club, but to use their most valuable trade commodities to bring in a haul of prospects for the future and, in the process, save money to offset the financial losses brought on by dismal attendance figures. The Indians felt they could have kept Lee and Martinez and paid their 2010 contracts, but they would have lost both in free agency at season's end and had glaring holes in their farm system.






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And also as I keep thinking about this (still not caring about the Halladay part) the satisfaction keeps creeping in.


Just from a Tribe-Phils perspective


Tribe gives up a year and a half of Lee and a 4th outfielder.


Tribe gets two potentially good starters with years of club control, a solid catcher, and a solid middle infielder.


Phillies give up ^ that, and a full year of Lee.


Phillies get a (great) half-season of Lee, two relievers and a decent outfielder.



Things to keep in mind


- We got what's probably a better haul than what the Phillies got (prospect-wise) when we traded DeRosa (Perez, Todd).


- Marson is a young, cheap catcher with some good upside. Pudge and Jason Kendall just signed big deals. Teams need catchers.


- Supposedly the reason the Phillies had to trade Lee was because he wants "Yankee money," which he obviously wasn't going to get from Dolan, for all the people who kept talking up the fact that he wanted to negotiate at the start of last year.


- What a deal for Seattle.



I'm admittedly a pretty unabashed Shapiro fan. But to me...the "bad moves" he makes just aren't that bad. And the good moves are pretty fantastic. I still can't find a way to justify the Pronk/Wood deals, but that's another topic for another day.

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I myself am getting tired of Marte. Living in Braves country it seems I have been hearing how good he is for half my life.


For me, either he lives up and gets it done or we just release the guy and let him be some other teams super prospect for the next 5 years.

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I myself am getting tired of Marte. Living in Braves country it seems I have been hearing how good he is for half my life.


For me, either he lives up and gets it done or we just release the guy and let him be some other teams super prospect for the next 5 years.

agreed. how's wes hodge's development coming along?

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