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If Holmgren takes over Cleveland Browns, Mangini is likely out


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By Mark J. Miller

 

Cleveland Browns coach Eric Mangini has enough problems on his hands. He's "coaching" a team that has won two games this season and lost 11. But now he's got to be worries about Mike Holmgren coming in as the new "football czar" in Cleveland.

The word is that if Holmgren and the Browns work out a deal for him to come onboard, Mangini will be shown the door, according to NFL.com. Holmgren is apparently "very interested" in the job and is ready to take the team in a "new direction."

It looks like Holmgren is going to have his chance. The Cleveland Plain Dealer is reporting that a deal has been offered.

That new direction would very likely include a new coach. Folks that would get considered probably include Jon Gruden, Steve Mariucci, Jim Zorn, Dick Jauron, and Marty Mornhinweg.

 

 

Link: http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/rumors/post/If...?urn=nfl,209453

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As hard as i try to believe this article - Dick Jauron and Jim Zorn ? Come on ! If Holmgren takes those two, the fans would lose trust in Holmgren ! Is there anyway we can all protest to have more "believable" rumors ?

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I really don't want Holmgren if he's going to disrupt things, I think what Mangini is doing is fine, the only thing that Mangini could use additions in are scouts, everything else I like what he's doing, I hope Holmgren comes back to Seattle so there's no chance of him signing here, I just think there's too much risk involved when you have two guys with big egos.

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If holmgren comes in theres a real good chance manwimpy is gone ,but there is also a lesser chance that holmgren will see past the snowjob and all the errors ,mistakes and bad stats and embrace what mangini is doing and be willing to form a hybrid system with both strength and speed ,holmgren is pretty straight forward ruff and gruff kinda guy but he isnt unreasonable ,even though a mealy mouth salesman type like mangini may not bode to well with holmgen ,however if thats the case then lerner didnt either bode to well either...;)

 

Getting a weak czar just to accommodate mangini is most certainly not the way to go..thats no different than getting wiess just to accommodate quinn..

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Jon Gruden, Steve Mariucci, Jim Zorn, Dick Jauron, and Marty Mornhinweg.

 

Pass. Look what Gruden and Mariucci did in their last 5 years of coaching. Sub .500 coaches.

 

Mornhinweg was 5-27 with the Lions as a head coach.

 

Honestly, I think it's kind of silly to think that Holmgren would bring in a "big name" coach like Gruden or Mariucci. Those guys grew egos between the time they worked with Holgren and now. Holmgren is going to want uncontested power. A better guess would be a young talented coach like Darrell Bevell whom Holmgren could direct.

 

Honestly, I don't have a real good feeling about Holmgren. We'll be sending this thing in yet another direction and putting all our trust in a guy who obviously knows X's and O's, but doesn't have a stellar track record in either the draft or pro personnel. The Seahawks were also a team that had constant cap issues under Holmgren and after he left. In other words, we're going on blind faith that Holmgren will excel at a job that he's been spotty at in the past on hopes that when you take away responsibilities where he's proven to excel (Xs and 0s), his performance will improve.

 

To me, this is little different from having Mangini act as a personnel guy (a job that's been done pretty well since Kokinis left the building -- see Roth, Evan Moore).

 

Hire a solid personnel guy to work with Mangini. That's what we've lacked since the return. Savage was supposed to be that guy, but his rein was an absolute abortion that it would take two more years of competent positioning to rebound from. But the national media loved him -- constantly putting "draft guru" next to his name. What a joke! Holmgren doesn't give you a slam dunk in any manner. And at $10 million a year with Lerner eating Mangini's contract, we might be stuck with him for a long, long time.

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Are we really over thinking this? Whose to say Holgrem won't hire someone to be the GM. Shouldn't there be a President, GM, Coach seems to me Learner needs to hire two guys.

 

If Mangini wins out which is possible(not likely) he would have matched last years record with less talent, acquired four draft picks, freed a lot of cap room from what I heard, and beat Pittsburgh. I would think Holgrem have to at least consider keeping him but on shorter leash.

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There is no real source to this story. It's supposition. Yes, Holmgren could fire Mangini. There's nothing to say that he definitely will. Mike Holmgren is not stupid. If something good is underway, he'd be foolish to disrupt it.

 

The intriguing side of this to me is to see if the Walsh tree and the Parcells/Belichick tree can mesh. Think back to when Mike Tomlin was hired in Pittsburgh. Here's a 4-3, tampa-2 guy coming in to coach a team with Dick LeBeau's 3-4. What they've gotten (last six games notwithstanding) is a successful mesh of philosophies.

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Misleading stat on Gruden. In his last five years, he had two 9-win seasons and one 11-win season. That means that his team was above .500 for three of the five years. Plus, they played two playoff games in that span. Career .540 record, .556 in the playoffs, made the playoffs 5 of 11 years? He was a very good coach in Oakland, was pretty good in Tampa Bay, too. Incidentally, that 4-12 season was when Gradkowski was at the helm.

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Misleading stat on Gruden. In his last five years, he had two 9-win seasons and one 11-win season. That means that his team was above .500 for three of the five years. Plus, they played two playoff games in that span. Career .540 record, .556 in the playoffs, made the playoffs 5 of 11 years? He was a very good coach in Oakland, was pretty good in Tampa Bay, too. Incidentally, that 4-12 season was when Gradkowski was at the helm.

 

A 4-12 season and a 5-11 season. Go back six years and you get another losing season. Another "offensive genius" whose team won because he inherited some very good defensive players and a good scheme. Billick/Gruden . . . same guy.

 

Really, recently Mangini's had similar success to Gruden 10-6, 4-12, 9-7, 4-12ish versus 5-11. 11-5, 4-12. 9-7, 9-7. Difference is Gruden inherited a lot of talent in Tampa. Mangini iherited crap here and not so much in NY either.

 

Gruden had Gradkowski at the helm one season because he never developed a QB. Never.

 

You can have Gruden.

 

 

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I'm sure Holmgren, if he takes the job would have a long list of pros and cons of keeping Mangini. But even that is partially irrelevant.

 

Even if he believes that there is no better coach in all of the NFL available than Mangini, Holmgren will know that everyone will assume he was FORCED by Lerner (or rather bribed to the tune of $10 million a year) to keep Mangini and that Holmgren truly doesn't have full authority.

 

If Holmgren doesn't mind being viewed as a submissive GM who doesn't actually have full authority and indeed, the head coach has more control because he's being protected by the owner then I suspect Mangini will stay.

 

In all honesty, if Randy Lerner wanted to pay me $10 million I'd let him have Mickey Mouse at head coach.

 

But whether Holmgren believes that there's no better head coach available is only part of the equation. It's also a matter of whether Holmgren's willing let everyone think he doesn't have full authority.

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Holmgren's job is to win games and finish turning this franchise around the right way. Right now, we have a coach that is going about this correctly and the last thing they need to do is start anew with another coach and philosophy.

 

Media hatred aside Mangie has this thing on the right track, there just needs to be someone to oversee things and let Mangie continue without total autonomy. Mangie and Holmgren seem to both be reasonable men, I see no reason why they couldn't make it work.

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I agree. The only way I don't see it working is Holmgren wanting his "own guy" in the HC position. I could see him bringing a guy like Gruden in here which would be fine with me because I think he's a similiar guy to Mangini...a no nonsense, high character guy coach. Fassell or Billick or Jauron or the other names make no sense to me if you're going to make a change. I could see it being a deal where Holmgren tries to talk Gruden out of the booth and if he says no, he sticks with Mangini.

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Holmgren's job is to win games and finish turning this franchise around the right way. Right now, we have a coach that is going about this correctly and the last thing they need to do is start anew with another coach and philosophy.

 

Media hatred aside Mangie has this thing on the right track, there just needs to be someone to oversee things and let Mangie continue without total autonomy. Mangie and Holmgren seem to both be reasonable men, I see no reason why they couldn't make it work.

 

 

I can see what Mangini has taken apart in Cleveland.

 

I'm not sure I can see anything that he can claim to have "built" yet. And even if one believes he has begun to build something, is he so far along in the process that it would be impossible for a new head coach to continue building on it? I'm not seeing that much that a new coach would have to "disassemble" before beginning his own rebuilding.

 

 

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I can see what Mangini has taken apart in Cleveland.

 

I'm not sure I can see anything that he can claim to have "built" yet. And even if one believes he has begun to build something, is he so far along in the process that it would be impossible for a new head coach to continue building on it? I'm not seeing that much that a new coach would have to "disassemble" before beginning his own rebuilding.

 

We get it. Besides the fact that you're a Mangini-hater...you're also having vision problems. We get it. Get it checked out.

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I can see what Mangini has taken apart in Cleveland.

 

I'm not sure I can see anything that he can claim to have "built" yet. And even if one believes he has begun to build something, is he so far along in the process that it would be impossible for a new head coach to continue building on it? I'm not seeing that much that a new coach would have to "disassemble" before beginning his own rebuilding.

 

I give (and you should too) credit to Mangini for freeing the Browns from the dead wood in our team. Most of the guys relived from the team are not in NFL anymore, speaks for our roster doesnt it ?

 

The picks and the free agents of Mangini have not paved out spectacularly so far, the offense is in shambles and we see it every game day. But the fact is this is where we are cos this is what we have. He needs to install his system and principles and im sure he can make us into a decent competitive team.

 

point is I (i hope it is a we) want a team built on reality and not a false sense of security. I dont want one season of 10-6 followed by 3 seasons of 2-14. I would prefer 4 seasons of 8-8. And i feel Mangini can make us into an 8-8 team.

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I give (and you should too) credit to Mangini for freeing the Browns from the dead wood in our team. Most of the guys relived from the team are not in NFL anymore, speaks for our roster doesnt it ?

 

The picks and the free agents of Mangini have not paved out spectacularly so far, the offense is in shambles and we see it every game day. But the fact is this is where we are cos this is what we have. He needs to install his system and principles and im sure he can make us into a decent competitive team.

 

point is I (i hope it is a we) want a team built on reality and not a false sense of security. I dont want one season of 10-6 followed by 3 seasons of 2-14. I would prefer 4 seasons of 8-8. And i feel Mangini can make us into an 8-8 team.

 

 

Yes - seriously I do give him credit for that.

 

Now that's certainly not rocket science - and dumping even a guy with clear talent like Edwards who is still a locker room cancer strikes me as a no-brainer as well. But it certainly needed to be done.

 

I think most of the guys brought in have been no better, to mediocre, with a few diamonds in the rough possible... that's a product of not being active in free agency and having to take in the outcasts of other teams. Finding good players out of that bunch is almost a matter of "volume" alone - bring enough guys in for a try and you may find some keepers.

 

Again, this would be the same for any team in the same boat. So while I'm not overwhelmed by the former Jets or other players I'm realistic too. (I stop short of giving any coach or GM credit for "getting under the cap". There's no choice about this - they couldn't play football otherwise.)

 

But my point remains, as much credit as we would give Mangini for disassembling the team, he's only done the next coach a favor... it's not like the next coach is at any disadvantage as a result.

 

I actually agree that Mangini can make the Browns an 8-8 team. I just think that mediocrity shouldn't be the goal and that Holmgren will bring someone demanding excellence.

 

And although it appears a few people like to mock me for saying that I don't see what's been built, I haven't seen too many people offering concrete examples of what's been built.

 

Any good coach - the next coach - should require the type of excellence in attitude that Mangini attempted to do - though Mangini shot himself in the foot by having his "pledge" of support for his QB last 2.5 games, and seems to have pissed off a lot of players along the way too. In many ways he'll never undo that first impression and players question whether he's the guy to take them beyond mediocrity. That's not good.

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Yes - seriously I do give him credit for that.

 

Now that's certainly not rocket science - and dumping even a guy with clear talent like Edwards who is still a locker room cancer strikes me as a no-brainer as well. But it certainly needed to be done.

 

I think most of the guys brought in have been no better, to mediocre, with a few diamonds in the rough possible... that's a product of not being active in free agency and having to take in the outcasts of other teams. Finding good players out of that bunch is almost a matter of "volume" alone - bring enough guys in for a try and you may find some keepers.

 

Again, this would be the same for any team in the same boat. So while I'm not overwhelmed by the former Jets or other players I'm realistic too. (I stop short of giving any coach or GM credit for "getting under the cap". There's no choice about this - they couldn't play football otherwise.)

 

But my point remains, as much credit as we would give Mangini for disassembling the team, he's only done the next coach a favor... it's not like the next coach is at any disadvantage as a result.

 

I actually agree that Mangini can make the Browns an 8-8 team. I just think that mediocrity shouldn't be the goal and that Holmgren will bring someone demanding excellence.

 

Another diatribe from the Belichick cabana boy..You only have one agenda..to bash Mangini in the name of the Patriots and Bill B..or are you so concerned about the well being of the Cleveland franchise and its fans that you constant babbling about Mangini is helping us..Stop worrying about us Joe..We all have our big boy pants on and can make are own judgement on OUR coach..Go worry about Moss tanking it and Thomas talking s**t about Beli and poisoning the locker room,

 

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Another diatribe from the Belichick cabana boy..You only have one agenda..to bash Mangini in the name of the Patriots and Bill B..or are you so concerned about the well being of the Cleveland franchise and its fans that you constant babbling about Mangini is helping us..Stop worrying about us Joe..We all have our big boy pants on and can make are own judgement on OUR coach..Go worry about Moss tanking it and Thomas talking s**t about Beli and poisoning the locker room,

 

 

...and once again it's apparent to everyone here you are unable to name even ONE thing that Mangini has "built" in Cleveland... let alone something built that a new coach couldn't build upon.

 

 

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...and once again it's apparent to everyone here you are unable to name even ONE thing that Mangini has "built" in Cleveland... let alone something built that a new coach couldn't build upon.

 

I've answered that question in many posts..I certainly don't answer to a Patriots troll with an obvious and quite tiresome agenda..Shouldn't you be trolling Jet and Dolphin websites?..seriously,,whats you're purpose here?

 

if you're trying to make it clear you don't like Mangini..mission accomplished..now move along

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For the life of me I don't understand why everybody thinks Mangie is gone with the Walrus taking over. Leave Mangie alone and just get someone to oversee things.

 

 

Its because there is no story in Cleveland so they have to make one up. Holmgren would be Retarded to get rid of Mangini. If he had any sense at all, he would play a big part in talent evaluation, decide where to send scouts, and let Mangini coach this team. I firmly believe Mangini is doing an excellent job here and that Holmgren understands that and is most likely happy that Mangini would be his coach. NOTHING Mangini has done merits termination. He's fixed our cap debacle, brought in what seems to be A LOT of cheap young talent, got value out of expendable team cancers in Winslow and Braylon, changed the culture, changed the attitude, drafted a franchise center, drafted a bonified #1 in MoMass, accumilated 11 draft picks, and beat the Steelers in a rebuilding year by out-coaching his opponent. All of this while inheriting ZERO talent outside if LT and DT and having no money to spend. I keep saying this year is the definition of "rebuilding" but it is more like the definition of "building". This franchise hasn't been built since coming back. Mangini's doing it and doing it correctly. And if Holmgren is worth even a fraction of the press coverage and money he's commanding, he will know that.

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I'm a Mangini backer but even I won't go out on a limb to say that Holmgren HAS to keep him or HAS to get rid of him. Mike Holmgren would be foolish to get rid of him if there was real progress because that would just be an ego thing. That said, new GMs and "czars" will want their own guy more often than not. All I would ask of Mike Holmgren would be that if he's going to get rid of Eric Mangini, he's going to have to replace him with someone better than his old assistant, Morninwheg and Jauron who were speculated on.

 

I don't believe that Mike Holmgren is a dummy. If Eric Mangini is really making progress here, I don't think he's gone. I'd like to think that Holmgren could see the merit in working with him. That's what happened on the defensive side of the football with LeBeau and Tomlin in Pittsburgh. I think it would be positive especially since the expertise of each is on opposite sides of the ball. They may not share the same philosophy when it comes to detail but they both care about the ultimate detail and that's winning.

 

I think a Holmgren-Mangini tandem would be very intriguing assuming both can keep up their end of the bargain.

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