no sacks

[JewDago]

all i saw were three and four-man lines last night. i knew we were in trouble when shaun rogers tipped the first pass of the game and wimbley caught it. all that did was encourage romeo and tucker to keep calling passive defenses. our complete and utter lack of a pass rush is seriously driving me insane.

 

even the horrible, ineffective blitzes that we used to bring off the corner and up the middle meant we were trying something. sitting back and watching is doing absolutely nothing to help our secondary.

 

and our three picks were trent edwards' fault. they had nothing to do with plays that our secondary or front seven made. maybe the first one was two guys combining to make a great play, but the other two were edwards just not seeing the coverage and basically throwing it straight to someone in white.

[MrFreeze]

After Houston we face Payton freaking Manning. Trent Edwards might not know what to do when he gets an eternity to throw the ball, but Manning sure as hell will carve us up.

 

I wonder what percentage of pass plays Monday were met with a 3-man rush? It seemed like greater than 50%. Compare that to the Steeler game against Washington when they sent the house what seemed like every series. As much as I hate to admit it, Pittsburgh is doing it the right way.

[Greythan]

JD,

 

I think you're being severe in not crediting the defense with any of the three picks. All three of them involved good plays by guys in position to make them.

 

Pick 1. Rogers triple teamed and still gets a mitt on it? He's a beast and sitting in the middle of the field he still gets push on the QB even against three. Smart D.

 

Pick 2. AD made one hell of a play on the ball. He was sitting in a prescribed spot on the field according to his zone responsibility. He watched Edwards, and made a very athletic play on the ball.

 

Pick 3. BMac, same as AD. In his zone coverage, watches the QB, breaks on the ball, makes a hell of a play.

 

I hear you on the pass rush. I want one too. However, there's no second guessing the pass defense last night. It worked.

[osusev]

the pass defense worked? more like trent edwards made two bad throws with Andre making a good catch. shaun rogers tipped one. It was not like edwards was testing anybody.

 

the damn 3-4 scheme than moving to a 5-2 front with some obvious overloads is pretty tiresome to watch. Than they figured Edwards lost all confidence so just drop back and make the bills beat you with the rush. pretty pathetic, when we do face better qbs who have not lost their confidence without pressure (something we lack all season long except for obvious overload blitzes which good qbs will pick up and beat us on)

 

Greythan go rewind your tivo that third pass from shadow of their endzone it was not a great "break" on the ball he was already in front of their reciever who was 3-4 yards away when edwards threw it INTO coverage.

[Gips]

JD,

 

I think you're being severe in not crediting the defense with any of the three picks. All three of them involved good plays by guys in position to make them.

 

Pick 1. Rogers triple teamed and still gets a mitt on it? He's a beast and sitting in the middle of the field he still gets push on the QB even against three. Smart D.

 

Pick 2. AD made one hell of a play on the ball. He was sitting in a prescribed spot on the field according to his zone responsibility. He watched Edwards, and made a very athletic play on the ball.

 

Pick 3. BMac, same as AD. In his zone coverage, watches the QB, breaks on the ball, makes a hell of a play.

 

I hear you on the pass rush. I want one too. However, there's no second guessing the pass defense last night. It worked.

 

I can agree with crediting the defense for the picks thats what coverage zone defense is suppose to do but buffalos offense later changed their gameplan and tucker failed to adjust our defense in a timely fashion and then went into a preventive defense as usual that nearly cost us the game we have a team that is absolutely capable of getting to any qb in the nfl but lack the creativity on the coaching staff to disquise blitzes and to attack from all and different angles when we blitz its very obvious and when we dont blitz thats very obvious to the bottomline is when we dont blitz we dont cover as good as we should our zone defenses are quite static we lack ball hawks at the lb positions and opposing teams can easily prepare against us to hit the dead space of the zones..

 

The only fixes are play more man to man with lots of disquised pressure on the qb more often and hire a real DC once Fats is gone...

 

I should point out that rogers had 2 and 3 linemen on him and yet no one was around to sneak into the backfield thats how flat and predictible our defense is under tucker he sucks much more than grantham did..

[Greythan]

Sev,

 

Buffalo threw for 148 yards and had 3 INT's. Edwards only other game anywhere near that bad was the week prior against New England on the road.

 

The Bills were 4-11 on third down. In the first half they were 0-4 on third down when passing with an INT. 2-3 on 3rd when passing in the second half or 2 for 7 for the game.

 

Sorry to deflate you, but our pass defense scheme worked to a charm. Oh, and Lee Evans caught how many passes? WR's in total caught 4 balls all night?

 

Now, if we could marginally defend against the run.

[JewDago]

@ Greythan: i'll admit that AD made a good play on the ball, but it was still a pass that edwards shouldn't have thrown. davis was way too close to the passing lane for anything good to come of that throw. it's a mistake that better QBs don't make. the same goes for b-mac's pick. better QBs see defenders camped out in zone coverage and avoid them. edwards just didn't see the guys standing there or thought he could fire it past them. you are right about the WRs not catching any balls, though.

 

what scares me is that the coaches think that the pass D worked last night, too, and are going to sally forth with it in coming weeks. if matt schaub doesn't come out and shred our pass defense next week, peyton manning sure will two weeks from now if we're still trying to bend and not break. sitting a zone works against sub-par or rattled QBs, but it fails against guys who know what they're doing.

 

on the bills' last drive, we went into straight prevent mode and edwards torched us over the middle of the field to get his team into field goal range. i hate being passive, but especially in a situation where you're trying to stop a team from driving.

 

that's my biggest problem with our defensive philosophy; we wait for teams to make a mistake and stop themselves instead of slamming the door on them.

 

@ MrFreeze: the funny thing about pittsburgh's blitzes is that, while it can look like they're sending the house, they almost never send more than 6 and most often send only 5. it's just that they disguise their coverages and blitzes well instead of telegraphing them.

 

it's like what buffalo did last night when they had no one put their hand down, something i loved. we need to do that. it disguises where the rush is coming from and confuses the offensive line.

 

i wish our defensive genius of a head coach were willing to learn.

[osusev]

Grey come on Trent edwards was gunshy from everything after 3 picks in the first quarter. He had guys open he just refused to throw it, you heard it even from the commentators. He was mentally crushed it was not our pass defense... Denver game anyone?

[Greythan]

Grey come on Trent edwards was gunshy from everything after 3 picks in the first quarter. He had guys open he just refused to throw it, you heard it even from the commentators. He was mentally crushed it was not our pass defense... Denver game anyone?

I guess I don't support the notion that our defense (scheme and execution) gets no credit for the 3 INT's.

 

Or the 0-4 (1st half) and 2-7 (game) results on 3rd down when Buffalo elected to pass.

 

Or the <150 yards passing.

 

My point is simply that our pass defense was effective, more than effective actually, if not the style many of us (me included) would like: massive pressure resulting in 8 crushing sacks!

[BrownIndian]

Wern't we not sacking more last year ?

[Guest c-dawg]

I really must say that one of the saddest things I have seen this year on defense was last night and our three man D-line trying to run stunts against six Bills blockers.

 

Our big fellas were running around wasting energy and everyone of them was double-teamed and no one got anywhere near the QB, who had all day.

 

Seriously, stunts with a three man line against a full protection package? Optimistic to say the least. A stronger QB would have eaten us alive. Also, given that our D-line is thin and young (in that order), all that early chasing means we are running out of gas in the fourth quarter and folding like Superman on laundry day.

[JewDago]

@ Greythan: i'll begrudgingly admit that our pass d was effective, though part of that was edwards' disincilination to throw to anyone but tight ends and running backs. dammit. i hate when something i hate works.

 

@ c-dawg: i can't believe i didn't think of our three-man lines as a possible culprit for our fourth-quarter collapses and second-half inability to stop the run. no wonder those guys are wearing down; they're working their asses off for a goal they can't possibly accomplish. yet another reason to blitz more; it'll create pressure without killing our defensive line, which will allow them to be more effective in the second half and actually stop the run.

[Greythan]

dammit. i hate when something i hate works.

Agreed.

 

I'm just as scarred as any of us old enough to have endured our Denver losses. The 3-4 is a defense I hated ever since as it affords the option of rushing 3. I really can't watch Schottenheimer do anything because of it. His unwillingness to even try to get pressure was mystifying.

 

A good friend of mine is a diehard Eagles fan. Its painful to watch the Eagles defense (every year!) through the lens of a Browns fan. Active, intimidating, strong. Sacks, tackles for loss, turnovers, etc.

 

Can't wait til we have one.

[JewDago]

but teams that run the 3-4 correctly almost never rush 3, and when they do it's a complete surprise.

[Lumbergh]

Why blitz when Trent Edwards is playing like dog shit?

[JewDago]

mentality and philosophy. dictate what the offense can do instead of allowing them free reign.

[Guest c-dawg]

Why blitz when Trent Edwards is playing like dog shit?

 

As I signaled in a response above, to try something to get us off the field to rest our D-Line. We are currently down about 37 minutes on time of possession for the season.

 

I am not going to show the math, but what that means is that our defense has basically played ONE GAME MORE than our offense so far this season.

[Greythan]

As I signaled in a response above, to try something to get us off the field to rest our D-Line. We are currently down about 37 minutes on time of possession for the season.

 

I am not going to show the math, but what that means is that our defense has basically played ONE GAME MORE than our offense so far this season.

Which is a bigger sign of our lack of rush defense.

 

I don't have time to run the numbers, but I wonder how our 3rd down pass defense stacks up against the NFL. By my count we were 2-7 defending pass plays 3rd down yesterday. Pretty good.

[lemosley01]

Sev,

 

Buffalo threw for 148 yards and had 3 INT's. Edwards only other game anywhere near that bad was the week prior against New England on the road.

 

The Bills were 4-11 on third down. In the first half they were 0-4 on third down when passing with an INT. 2-3 on 3rd when passing in the second half or 2 for 7 for the game.

 

Sorry to deflate you, but our pass defense scheme worked to a charm. Oh, and Lee Evans caught how many passes? WR's in total caught 4 balls all night?

 

Now, if we could marginally defend against the run.

 

Greythan,

I disagree that our pass defense did it's job - Edwards was so rattled that either BUF reigned in the play calling and switched to short passes or Edwards didn't even bother to look down field. He didn't throw a pass more than 5 yards until the 4th quarter, and the short passes he did throw looked like the first option, not checkdowns.

 

They gave us a healthy dose of Lynch, and why not? We couldn't stop him or their other back.

[Greythan]

Greythan,

I disagree that our pass defense did it's job - Edwards was so rattled that either BUF reigned in the play calling and switched to short passes or Edwards didn't even bother to look down field. He didn't throw a pass more than 5 yards until the 4th quarter, and the short passes he did throw looked like the first option, not checkdowns.

I hear ya. But what I'm trying to say is that credit (some amount at least) has to be given to our defensive scheme and execution for causing Edwards to be "rattled".

 

That's all.

 

Well, and the fact that they threw for less than 150 yards and sucked on 3rd down.

[Riffer X]

My opinion on the three man rush was the Browns were bound and determined not to get burnt like Cutler did to them when they went man. It paid off pretty well after Edwards gave it up and got gun shy. He was late in getting the ball out several times and if we could tackle things would have been way better. Edwards finally got loose at the end when the boys were shot and then their vaunted coaching staff played for a 47 yarder into the wind while still leaving the Browns time on the clock if he had made it.

 

I know this, and that is nobody should ever comment on Rogers being tired or coming out for breathers. Dumb fans say this because of his reputation, but that guy goes up against double and triples and absolutely plays his balls off. He leaves it all out there, and almost every lineman in the league gets breathers.

 

Phillip said this when we got him. He asked the writers to name a lineman as big and dominant as Rogers that doesn't have to take a breather from time to time. On top of that, he gets no help from anybody else. Casey at the Fat for the Puke can't go two plays without just leaning on someone.

 

Another point: Some of the lack of sending more than three comes down to the waste of sending Wimbley and having him removed from the play. Sometimes he presents more help by dropping back in coverage or containment than disappearing into a left tackle's arms.

[Guest c-dawg]

My opinion on the three man rush was the Browns were bound and determined not to get burnt like Cutler did to them when they went man. It paid off pretty well after Edwards gave it up and got gun shy. He was late in getting the ball out several times and if we could tackle things would have been way better. Edwards finally got loose at the end when the boys were shot and then their vaunted coaching staff played for a 47 yarder into the wind while still leaving the Browns time on the clock if he had made it.

 

I know this, and that is nobody should ever comment on Rogers being tired or coming out for breathers. Dumb fans say this because of his reputation, but that guy goes up against double and triples and absolutely plays his balls off. He leaves it all out there, and almost every lineman in the league gets breathers.

 

Another point: Some of the lack of sending more than three comes down to the waste of sending Wimbley and having him removed from the play. Sometimes he presents more help by dropping back in coverage or containment than disappearing into a left tackle's arms.

 

@ RifferX - Rogers (or Cribbs) is our best player. It was inspiring when he tipped that interception while triple-teamed! Also, good points about Wimbley, tackling and the 3-man rush and playing it safe. About Wimbley, why the hell don't they move him around the line?

 

@ Greythan - Of course you are right that our Time of Possession differential is mostly due to our lack of a run defense. My concern is that plenty of our opponent's drives have continued after we had them in 3rd and long (or really long) where rushing the ball wasn't really an option. That's where our lack of pressure keeps us on the field...that and we can't tackle.

 

Rushing three on Peyton Manning, Roethlisberger and even Donovan McNabb is a fairly daunting prospect. It seems to be begging to go score for score with them and their defenses appear better equipped for that eventuality.

[Greythan]

@ Greythan - Of course you are right that our Time of Possession differential is mostly due to our lack of a run defense. My concern is that plenty of our opponent's drives have continued after we had them in 3rd and long (or really long) where rushing the ball wasn't really an option. That's where our lack of pressure keeps us on the field...that and we can't tackle.

 

Rushing three on Peyton Manning, Roethlisberger and even Donovan McNabb is a fairly daunting prospect. It seems to be begging to go score for score with them and their defenses appear better equipped for that eventuality.

Totally on the same page.

 

I was speaking in a very isolated manner regarding our scheme for Edwards on Monday. We've tried it against more seasoned QB's that flat out can't be confused if given 4+ seconds in the pocket regardless of how many you get in coverage. It doesn't work. Its Elway driving against us all over again.

 

You can't be a good defense until you become at least moderately good at pressuring the QB when the situation calls for it.