Riffer X

1 hour ago, mjp28 said:

Hey Riffer, this spread looks like it's right out of a gay boys magazine......or is that just me.

Moving right along.    

@mjp28 believe it or not, back in the day we had a pretty good time on here busting balls and talking football.

The agenda driven drivel and personal/political attacks on here now are out of control and supersede any decent football talk. Too many have a stick up their collective asses.

As mods, we need to put the hammer down on it and get it cleaned up with camp starting up.

27 minutes ago, tiamat63 said:

And I appreciate the well thought-out response.     Although you aren't the reason, your words will continue to encourage me to be a little more... measured...  in my dealings with other posters.

 

That being said, the bolded part gave me a good laugh - I appreciate that.

Currently working on something I should have done in the next few hours re: Jacoby.   You might want to check back then.

Dude, I was going to ask you about throwing something together for Brissett. I can do it as well, but backed up at work and wouldn't be able to live with myself if I broke out the TinyTake for hours. There is some damn good film of Brissett, he can play.

Seriously, I have no issues with signing Rosen, but I think Browns fans collectively are sleeping on Brissett. I went back and watched 4 of his starts from last year and really liked what I saw. Very hard to sack, is decisive and can make all the throws along with the ability to move the chains with his feet. He whiffs here and there like everybody else. but I'm not too concerned with having to play Jacoby. 

I think where the Browns are concerned is only having Dobbs to back up Brissett. They will need someone who can learn and be able to run the system if called upon should Brissett go down (all assuming Watson gets some sort of suspension of course). Whether Dobbs or Rosen would be next up will be determined by their performance in camp. They also need camp arms, and I don't think they are worried about developmental arms right now, just guys that can practice and play if called upon. 

Just look at that smile.

Stoic & Wet Brady

Just look at that totally ripped throwing motion

A little flexin' with his bois

18 hours ago, Westside Steve said:

In other words Cal was right and it pisses you off? Anyway pictures of Rosen without his shirt on, let's just say  didn't fit the image of an NFL quarterback.

WSS

Oooohh!

4 hours ago, ballpeen said:

I appreciate the thought, but if I do anything it would be the Falcons game since it is 100 miles south of where I live in Tennessee. One of the downsides of having season tickets and living nearly 600 miles away from Cleveland is every game is an away game for me, so I miss not catching a game or two that are "away".  Between ticket costs, 3 nights lodging per game, gas, meals etc, I tap the budget about as far as I am willing to take it.  I am getting older, so the game aside, the trips are starting to become more of a grind than over past years.  For the 1st time I am trying to sell off 3 games.  The Steelers, Bengals, and Saints.  I figure I can watch the Steelers and Bengals games at home on TV since they are night games, which sounds pretty good to me.

 

It is what it is.

I give you mad credit for having season tickets this long and travelling that far. I think you are making the right call to dial it back a bit, as sometimes watching on TV ain't all that bad. Now that I'm in FL, I generally go to one or two games a year down here depending on who we are playing between Miami, Jax and Tampa. Even that is a big deal and costly expense, plus I'm the type that likes to soak the whole football weekend from home between the Buckeyes and all my DFS and FF stuff. Very happy that another season is almost upon us and let's hope it's drama and Covid free.

2 hours ago, FY56 said:

Um, because he is a Browns fan. That's what we do regardless. You unwittingly called yourself a fair-weather fan.

 

5 hours ago, ballpeen said:

When in the last 23 years have the browns had a shot to win a Super Bowl?  You have been a fan thus far.  When you get down to it, the browns have probably only had 5-6 legit shots at being a team that could have made the Super Bowl since the Super bowl became the game....what was that, 1967?

Whatever Peen, this board has devolved so badly that real football talk takes a back seat to ridiculous semantic bullshit like this. It's pathetic.

6 minutes ago, Canton Dawg said:

Just 2 wrinkles I’ll throw your way about Watson.

First, he played the majority of his games in the AFC South…probably the weakest division in the league.

Second, Watson was the most sacked QB in 2019/2020.

If all of the DW fans think he’s going to waltz into Cleveland and March us to a SB victory, I have news for you.

Well, that's your opinion. I mean, why root for the team if you think they have no shot at a Super Bowl? To each their own. 

1 hour ago, Canton Dawg said:

 

@Canton Dawg  I'm just going to address your responses or questions instead of trying to quote them directly.

Canton Dawg: "Since Baker had a bad year, I was surprised they extended him. The timing was also suspicious because it wasn’t like there was a time constraint to extend the 5th year option???"

Riffer X: Not sure I completely understand your question here, but teams have timeframes to exercise options on rookie contracts. On April 23rd, 2021, Cleveland (CLE) exercised an $18.858 million option for 2022. This is absolutely and completely normal, especially given the (relatively speaking) cheap starting QB contract BM was under. Remember, we just came off the most successful season since 1994 under Belichick with BM playing the best football of his career the final half of the season. He just beat Pitt in a road playoff game, so it was an absolute no-brainer that they picked up his option. Anything else would have caused a firestorm. All this was doing was extending his rookie contract to 5 years, it wasn't giving him a raise or anything.

Canton Dawg: "I wasn’t of the mindset of giving Baker a big contract, as he didn’t really do anything to deserve it. I was ok with extending his contract for the 5th year to see what he can do when healthy. If he sucked, 2023 looks to be a good QB class."

Riffer X: We are in agreement here, which is why you pick up his fifth-year option assuming he will be auditioning for his big contract extension in 2022. He blew that in 2021 for a myriad of reasons.

Canton Dawg: "So I take it you’re ok with the baggage DW brings with him?"

and

"Just so you know where I stand on Watson, I think he’s a slight upgrade over Mayfield and the numbers show it. But no way in hell is he worth the draft capital and money Haslam paid for. If he doesn’t bring a SB Championship to Cleveland very quickly, this player acquisition will be one of the all time worst deals in Browns history."

Riffer X: I have no issues whatsoever with Watson's baggage because I personally think this is a money grab and have all along. Now, does the guy have some fetishes that counseling could help? Sure, but as I told MJP, Watson is an investment, and the sooner fans view him that way the better off they will be. He has never had any other issues besides this massage BS and is considered a film rat, hardcore competitor and good leader. 

We disagree here. Watson is an elite QB who has never had a cockpit to play behind like we have here. He is a huge upgrade over Mayfield with his legs and mobility alone, and his stats are much better than Baker's. Watson is an elite QB, whereas Baker is mid-tier at best with occasional glimpses of stellar play. I highlighted many of the big differences below.

Watson Passing

Watson Rushing and Receiving

Mayfield Passing

Mayfield Rushing and Receiving

1 hour ago, mjp28 said:

That all sounds right about BRM and his timing and injuries......and the part about the Browns wanting an adult at QB.....

.......and somehow the Browns ended up with adult movies and QB all mixed together. 

And after a $ ¼ BILLION+ outlaid and right now no confirmed starting quarterback for game 1.    Or something like that

What a mess.   

People should stop being so shortsighted about Watson and look at this as an investment. He may very well be our QB for the next 10 years, so whatever BS suspension he gets to start this season off will end up just being a blip on the radar in the big picture. Brissett is a solid QB as well, I went back and watched four of his starts last year and he should flourish in this offense. 

5 hours ago, ballpeen said:

Who offered more that we got? Were their any other teams interested?  My feeling is if Baker was all that good, we would have had multiple teams seeking his services no matter the thought that we didn't have leverage.  If Baker was good enough, we would have had leverage because multiple interested teams would have created said leverage.

 

A note on Cals numbers posted.  The game is different than when Otto played.  Posting up numbers that show Baker just behind Otto doesn't make Baker set to be better than Otto Graham.

 

And just to be clear.  I like Baker and wanted to draft him. I would have been good with keeping him, but he wasn't a great QB.  He was a middle of the pack QB.  We could win with him, but probably not because of him.

@ballpeen this was bad timing for Baker given all the variables (his mouth, whispers the Browns wanted an adult at QB, the bad blood separation, his injury, coming off a bad season, being a video gaming junkie rather than a film junkie etc).

Being on the last year of his contract and being injured on top of it (still hasn't passed the physical that I know of - but I could be wrong on that), he just isn't considered a valuable commodity given the teams who need a QB and their situations. The majority of them are most likely tanking to draft a guy next year, and this may be becoming a new thing where drafting rookies is much more cap effective than extending these guys to huge deals. Baker could be just good enough to win enough games for a team looking to draft high next year. Jimmy G is in a similar situation without the baggage and he is still sitting out there. 

There's also whispers that Baker has put on about 20 pounds similar to 2019 with Fast Fredward. I don't know how true those rumors are, but he does love his video games. 

I honestly don't even expect him to start against us, I don't think he will be ready even if he does end up winning the job eventually (assuming they keep Darnold). I know Carolina wanted to finally pull the trigger before camp to get him in there (this deal was on the table since the draft), but he still doesn't have a ton of time to get ready. This is a guy who doesn't have a rep as a film junkie to quickly pick up a new scheme and he also has to get healthy, get in shape and develop chemistry with his new teammates where guys like Robbie Anderson are already on record for making comments of not liking him before the trade.

3 hours ago, Canton Dawg said:

Funny how everyone is yapping about what the Browns had to fork out to get rid of Mayfield.

Yet nobody is talking about the shit for brains that extended his contract THEN went shopping for his replacement.

If AB worked for any competent company, his ass would’ve been fired for pissing away millions of dollars.

But the Browns doesn’t qualify as a competent organization.

@Canton Dawg your post is common sensical in approach, but did you really think the Browns wouldn't pick up his option? Do you not agree that things are always fluid in the NFL and can change quickly? Not trying to give you any shit here either, but genuinely curious as to why you think it would be sensible to give Baker big money and extend him for years just because we picked up his option after he had a good season. 

He was not good last year. It was all over film and there were all kinds of other rumblings regarding his leadership or lack thereof, along with social media drama with him and his wife. I could go on and on, but the Browns were moving on regardless of the Watson scenario. Picking up an option is to further evaluate a player before risking a huge money investment, that's unless the player obviously sucks and Baker didn't at the time.

This board is very polarized by Baker and full of agendas on both sides of the coin. Hopefully, we hear something on Watson soon and move on. 

Personally, and I posted this on Flugel's thread before Cal started this one, Baker will go down in Browns history as a top 5 QB. I don't care what generation, those are the facts. Trying to wipe away his accomplishments is just as ridiculous as claiming the Browns should have went into this season with him as a lame duck after the drama of last season and piss poor performance.  

4 hours ago, ballpeen said:

Nice post Rif....good info.

 

I might not be as high on him as you, but i don't worry about it .  He should be fine, and if not, as you mentioned we have a couple of guys behind him that should be able to push him in camp.  If Harris ends up the starter, he will have earned it.

Thanks Russ. FYI, I am heading to the Miami game this year in case you happen to do some road games. We are making a weekend of it in South Beach. 

Also, sitting in Row D right behind the Browns bench for the Jax preseason game and will be there tailgating. 

23 minutes ago, Dutch Oven said:

I wonder if Denver waxes poetically years later about the time Tim Tebow directed the Broncos over a playoff win vs the Steelers...

What's the point?

Their new Three Sewers is...

Heinz Field will have a new name starting with the 2022 football season. The Pittsburgh Steelers’ home field will be renamed Acrisure Stadium, the team announced Monday.

Acrisure, a Michigan-based insurance and financial technology company, signed a 15-year naming rights agreement for the stadium. Financial terms were not released.

"The Pittsburgh Steelers are an institution in American sports and a globally recognized brand. Partnering with the Steelers is the opportunity of a lifetime and a tremendous honor," Greg Williams, the co-founder, chairman and CEO of Acrisure said in a statement.

"Acrisure provided us with an opportunity to ensure our stadium continues to be a valuable asset for our fans as well as keeping up with the market value of NFL stadiums. We are very appreciative to partner with Greg Williams and his company, and we look forward to a long, beneficial relationship for years to come," said Steelers President Art Rooney II.

Steelers officials said the partnership “will enable the franchise to continue to invest in stadium amenities and aesthetics, including new stadium identification for the 2022 season,” and help increase brand recognition for Acrisure.

A spokesperson for Kraft Heinz, which held the naming rights for the stadium since it opened in 2001, said the company worked with the Steelers for “several months” to mint a new deal, but the team “found a new partner willing to pay significantly more than we could justify.”

“While our name will no longer be on the stadium, Heinz will remain a significant, long-term sponsor of the Steelers and we’re excited to announce the details of our new partnership in the days ahead,” the company said.

2022 NFL RB unit rankings: Cleveland Browns lead the way while Dallas Cowboys land in top 10

Earlier this offseason, I ranked the top-20 starting running backs in the NFL. There’s going to be some similarity between these rankings and that list, but the league is shifting more and more toward a running-back-by-committee approach, as just one running back — Najee Harris — played on over 70% of his team’s offensive snaps in 2021. That makes running back units a better way of evaluating a team’s backfield contributions than merely looking at where its starters stack up. 

For the purposes of this exercise, fullbacks weren’t included. Teams with quality options at fullback, such as the San Francisco 49ers and Baltimore Ravens, would receive slight bumps if they were taken into account. 

TIER 1: ELITE BACKFIELD (VERY GOOD STARTER AND GOOD DEPTH)
1.  CLEVELAND BROWNS
Nick Chubb is arguably the best pure runner in the NFL. Over the last four seasons, Chubb ranks first among all qualifying running backs in PFF rushing grade (93.1), yards after contact per rushing attempt (4.1) and forced missed tackles per rushing attempt (0.25). Add in a second quality starting option such as Kareem Hunt behind him to go along with D’Ernest Johnson (90.6 PFF rushing grade in 2021) and the Browns have the most talented backfield in the league.

2 hours ago, Canton Dawg said:

Good post, and I’m also concerned that since DW has the bar set very high, if he doesn’t perform (quickly) the fans will also turn on him.

I'm not too worried about Watson, he's a damn good ballplayer. He'll be lining up behind easily one of the league's best lines with the best RB unit in the league and some nice WRs in Cooper, Bell and DPJ (for now -- could be more added). Njoku and Bryant are a nice tandem as well so he will have his best cockpit ever. Stefanski has to be salivating.

3 hours ago, tiamat63 said:

I tend to think of things using the filter of time in order to effect my current thought process. 

While I've had my gripes about Bakers play since Oklahoma State 2017, I will look fondly back on his time in CLE.  Team was a dumpster fire for 20 years and, while I feel a bit too much credit is given his way, and someone like Hoyer could have been a .500 QB with this roster and coaches,  I would also be an idiot to not acknowledge Mayfield's field contributions to making this team competitive.   

More so than on the field, was the off-field mentality that's lost in all of this. Baker gave us, yes that includes me, the gift of belief.  Belief that this team can and was/is turning their losing ways around.  Or at least, wanting to believe we could.  With hindsight, could it be considered arrogance or perhaps even false bravado? Sure.  

But at that time? It was something more, and the power of belief cannot be understated.  For that, I will always be grateful to Baker.

Agreed. Flugs and I were discussing this the other day, but it seems like fans in this era are very quick to turn on their players as compared to year's past. The reason I posted my nostalgic posts above regarding the Denver playoff games is because while watching those the other day, I fondly recalled how much I loved those players. I mean Mack had two huge fumbles in both The Drive and The Fumble, but he remains one of my alltime favorite Browns (great guy btw). We all remember the Slaughter lack of hustle leading to the Castille strip, but he also bobbled a pick from Bernie early on during The Fumble that killed a third down conversion and was hurt in crunch time during The Drive. Felix is one of my faves at safety over the years and he made a huge mistake in The Fumble. 

Even during the season. our fans attack players non-stop and are unable to appreciate guys who may not be superstars, but who do their jobs and are consummate team players. Fans nowadays need to hate a player when they leave and much of that is due to the over saturation of media coverage imo. When Sipe left for the USFL, we probably would have heard all kinds of BS on Twitter and through local media about his antics and fans would spread the fake news like wildfire.

I believe when all the drama from this is over with and everybody moves on, most fans will look back fondly on Baker's tenure and all the "he plays video games too much and throws guys under the bus" etc. will be long forgotten. 

Like you said, Baker gave us hope and then he cashed it in with the road playoff game win against Pitt. His arm is probably the best in franchise history despite his smaller stature, and that did matter with keeping teams from stacking the box too much. 

29 minutes ago, tiamat63 said:

 

This team hasn't been blessed with a long history of quality QB play. 

Would seem to follow that, in the modern offense driven era of football, even an average to slightly above average passer would earn "lofty" rankings in stats when we go down the pantheon list of CLE signal callers. 

 

Yeah, that is assumed and patently obvious. But the facts are the facts. The Browns have been around for 75 years, and Baker ranks in the top 5 or higher for just about every pertinent stat. He accomplished that in only four years while winning a road playoff game in Pitt. 

This was in no way meant to be some sort of Baker promoting rationalization for his poor play and antics, but simply pointing out the facts. And yes, it does point out how piss poor our QB play has been over the majority of those 75 years. 

-- Take a look at Sipe, who is probably my favorite alltime Browns QB. He left here unceremoniously for the USFL at the end of his time in Cleveland.

-- Career rating of 74.8

-- Record barely above 500 at 57-55 -- which means he literally won one more game than he lost. Mayfield wins one more game, he is a game above 500. 

-- Sipe never won a playoff game in 10 seasons and only went once, where he basically threw the game away in Red Right. Stuff's all relative, but stats are stats.

-- Mayfield is arguably a better QB than Dr. Frank Ryan was. Ryan just happened to be the last Browns QB to win a championship on a loaded team with Jim Brown, plus he played more seasons and more games.

Right now, there is a recency bias towards Mayfield and fans are fickle. Eight months ago, this guy was beloved by the majority of Browns fans except those who were growing concerned about his poor film. A year ago, he was beloved by just about all Browns fans like no QB since Bernie. In twenty years, most fans will probably look back fondly at Mayfield and point out how he ranks in the top five alltime for Browns QBs. Of course, hopefully DW is ahead of him in every facet.

Slick Nick was a fan ragdoll after being forced to play guard his rookie season in a flat-out attrition emergency, hence he got judged way too quickly by many as some sort of squirt who'd get slapped around mercilessly when and if he ever played. He was a fish out of water on an island and was never supposed to have been used that way as a raw rookie. I liked the pick and like the way he plays, he is a pure, natural center who can make all the calls up front and knows the game with the starting pedigree from Washington to prove it. He's very good in space (which is perfect for the ZBS elements of this running scheme), and very efficient in handling pass pro responsibilities with sound technique.

I've pointed out a lot of this stuff in the past, but Tretter never practiced, and it was Nick who got all those reps with the starters. He had some nice preseason moments last year and that is when I started becoming a believer as he was going up against starters for a lot of his reps. When he got his shot against Kenny Clark and the Pack, he way more than held his own.

What I like best is his commitment to getting stronger. That's the kind of attitude that good, developmental pros need to have to be successful -- continual improvement. For perspective, Tretter is generally considered about 305 pounds at 6'4. Nick was anywhere from 293 to 302 depending what source is used from the draft. Folks think he is small and will get manhandled against big 1 techs, but he put on 16 to 17 pounds of muscle as of early May per assistant strength and conditioning coach Evan Marcus. That's going to put him at 310 or better by camp with much improved strength. At "only" 6'1, that's quite a fireplug with leverage at that size along with his quicks and mobility. Do folks remember when Pain & Teller devoted himself before the 2020 season (adding about 18 pounds of muscle) and then became dominant? 

There's a reason the Browns like him and have confidence in him being able to take over for a top dawg like Tretter. Pocic was a very nice signing to provide starting experience as an interior backup, but he isn't starting over Nick unless Nick falls flat on his face or struggles mightily to start the season. I don't see it happening, I see him being a solid piece to one of the league's best olines (if healthy of course). Pocic is also coming off his best career season according to PFF.

I also really like Deaton and am looking forward to seeing him in preseason. He should be a nice PS stash.

Lastly, this is what good organizations do and we are going to need to do the same going forward with cap pressure coming. We are letting an aging, high-cost vet go and replacing him with a developmental guy who appears ready to take over in the third year of his rookie contract. (Think Alex Wright as an example for next season.) Nick is on the cheap and will be able to be extended at a decent and fair contract if he performs. This season he will make just under a million and next year just a little over a million (same with cap hits as his bonus is $78k annually).

Spotrac: Nick Harris Contract Breakdown

Nick Harris segment of Building the Browns begins at 1:45

Nick's PFF from last year (I just rewatched this last week and he did very, very well against Clark)

Nick's measurables coming out

Pocic's career PFF and last season game by game

PFF: 2022 NFL offensive line rankings

Not a bad read here by Tones believe it or not.

Baker Mayfield Was One Of A Kind And Deserves A Lofty Spot In Browns History

It was appropriate referencing his relationship with Mayfield because it was a part of Baker's public legacy here, imo.

I don't think it has resonated with people yet where Baker ranks in team history, regardless of if they are "Baker Bros" or "Thank Gawd He's Gone!!" types. Taking the new era stats into account, he still ranks pretty highly considering he was only here for 4 years. These are just stats but winning the first road playoff game since 1969 and beating Pitt to do so will be looked back fondly in years to come.

-- 1st in completion %

-- 2nd in QB rating (per Football Reference -- behind Milt Plum)

-- 2nd in interception %

-- 4th in yards passing or 3rd if only counting Otto's NFL stats

-- 5th in TDs or 4th if only counting Otto's NFL stats

-- 5th in AV but would be 6th if Otto had an AV. AV is Approximate Value

-- 7th in wins if I am calculating this correctly

Cleveland Browns Career Passing Leaders