Flugel

Freddie knows a shit-starter when he sees one.  Enjoy...

2 hours ago, Clevfan4life said:

^^^^this

 

collins is back with NE....which speaks volumes.

Who needs to even watch football any more when Pro Football Focus (PFF) has all the answers?     Should I volunteer to tell Bill Belicheck how much time he's wasting especially when PFF has all the answers he can't possibly come up with himself?  Can you imagine some smart asss waterboy in NE correcting Belicheck with "That's not what Pro Football Focus says?" 

2 hours ago, Tour2ma said:

NYG WRs are an endangered species....

Two injured and one suspended (pending appeal)...

Maybe America's Got Talent has a surprise candidate or 2 or perhaps even Clevsies if he's got his frat boy beer muscles cap on...

On 7/23/2019 at 6:43 AM, TexasAg1969 said:

Game one and this is who we have to deal with. The new coach at Tenn realized halfway through the season exactly what I saw coming into the league, my favorite underutilized (until last year) player. Funny that they use that old Browns' term to describe him, Jim Brown. He will be the first test for this newly formed LB crew.

 

It's a good thing he woke up before Rip Van Winkle and former 1st round disappointment - Chance Warmack .  People were beginning to wonder why he was having trouble getting more work load than Dion Lewis half way into his 3rd NFL season. Lucky for him, he contacted Eddie George for input/feedback of what was holding him back and he began playing like the RB TN expected him to be. 

Good thing too because your buddy Flugel was getting too fat to hide from his prediction Henry would be a great back considering they got him in round 2.

On 7/22/2019 at 11:23 AM, Tour2ma said:

I continue to be amazed at how much shit Collins, arguably our most productive LB the past three years, gets.

 

As for the LB position... yes, it is key... but then I think it is always key.

For starters they are the de-facto QBs of the D. Then they are the mops that clean up any mess the DL creates. Then, more than any other position group have to balance great run D with great pass D. The latter including effective pressuring of the QB beginning with great disguise.

It's the most demanding room on the D-side... and the room that underachieved the most last season. If I had to name one area that must improve, it would be PAP recognition.

If our D is to go to the next level, then it falls on our LBs to take us there.

Well said!  I guess all those guys proclaiming Bill Belicheck knows exactly when to cut a guy loose started hanging out with ostriches the day Belicheck re-signed Collins. 

IMO, 1 thing people continued to lose sight of throughout last season was how banged up we were at LB.   When starters weren't out injured, they played injured.  As much as I want to say so what it's part of the game - this was a team coming off 0-16 football that couldn't afford the injury situation to our LBer Corp.  Adding insult to injury, that Defensive Line only had 1 reliable DE (Garrett) and 1 reliable DT (Ogunjobi) while the other DT and DE often got rag-dolled. The combination of Ogunjobi and Garrett pass rushing Brees and Roethlisberger from the same side seemed too good to be true; and we learned soon enough - it was.  People can blame the LBers all they want; but how many LBer Corps can succeed when offensive lines are consistently imposing their will on half of the defensive line in front of them?  

1-2 weeks before we played SD, Philip Rivers said Schobert was one of the toughest LBers to throw at.  He gave him oxymoronic praise in calling him a pain in the asss to challenge.  Understanding the MLB was responsible for both hook zones the last time they met in 2017 while Peppers was lining up at Safety in another area code - it was significant praise.  It only made sense that Schobert was injured and inactive when our defense failed to challenge Rivers in 2018. 

Just like RBs and QBs need a line in front of them in order to experience consistent success - the same holds true with our LBers.  If we can keep our front 4 healthy this year,  I think we have the personnel and experience to be successful at LBer.  I'm not saying they're ready to be superstars; but did NE have any Superstars at LBer when they won the SB last year?  No, they just had solid LBer play significantly helped by the dline in front of them. 

The additions the FO made this off season should help as well as getting some guys back healthy!

9 hours ago, gumby73 said:

and here lies the problem as Cleveland.com sports writers as "the source" to the national media reports..i can trust only two..Jake Burns & Pluto for actual good insight..The rest can take the same guy like Corbett and come up with good/bad/to suck links in the same practice..so Am on the boat of 'wait to see with my own eyes' this season..Care to join? the only thing 7 writers agreed on today was the weather was sunny 🌞 lol

I gotta confess.  I traded in everything I ever learned about football for the world according to Mary Kay Cabot.   It's been an amazing transformation. I never had any idea that footballs are slippery when wet.  If it wasn't for Mary Kay Cabot, I would have never understood why Jim Brown scored more TDs than Gene Hickerson and other Offensive Guards for that matter.  She even got me up to speed that defensive players are supposed to tackle people but a lot of our defensive players in the new millennium have been unable to do so.  And did you know it wasn't Legally Blonde's Elle Woods or any of our coaches dating back to Paul Brown that came up with the "Bend and Snap?"  It was Mary Kay Cabot; and I'm just a blind man in the bleachers without her.

On 7/25/2019 at 12:03 AM, calfoxwc said:

I hope to go to the worst blizzard game in december.  Two feet of snow, wind roaring... man, I love those games....

😄 Thatta boy!  

I'll never forget driving from Roch-cha-cha-chach-ester (still shivering) in a blizzard to the post season playoff victory over the Buffalo Bills.  They can blame Ronnie's Harmons all they want; but someone should have known how dangerous Eric Metcalf was in the return game.  Jim Croce once said "You don't tug on Superman's cape."  Jim Kelly said "Oh yeah?  Watch me!"  We did; and Clay Matthews intercepted him at the 2 yard line to seal the deal for us. 

We sure played in a lot of playoff games after we drafted Clay Matthews and Ozzie Newsome in the first round of 1978 while participating in 3 Conference Championships during their tenures.  It's a shame only 1 of those very reliable leaders made it to the HOF.  As Pro Bowl Guard Joe DeLamielleure said "he not only played all 4 LBers positions for us - but he did it at an extremely high level."  Same guy at a Browns Backers Banquet was asked who was his biggest challenge o block was?  Without hesitation, Joe D said "Clay Matthews is the toughest SOB I've ever played against."  But what would a Pro Bowl Guard know more than the media about the type of criteria that should be weighed for NFL HOF Selection process?  It gave me such warm fuzzies all over to see the NFL HOF process on their knees going bobble head doll on TO's groin.  What a teammate!  What a leader!  He totally deserved to be inducted for the NFL HOF at a place he preferred to the NFL HOF of course.  Still keeping that "I before team"  attitude with him to the gold jacket he now tarnishes.  When Me-O started mouthing off, that would have been a good time to say "You're right punk.  We'll give it to someone that was willing to sacrifice glamor boy stats putting the team before the self.  This was done without pointing fingers at teammates during adversity or temper tantrums on the sidelines. Welcome to the NFL Hall of Fame Clay Matthews." 

On 7/18/2019 at 1:00 PM, tiamat63 said:

I did pick up one of those white, bucket hats from the Browns site that you saw the coaches on HBO wear.  Actually not a bad fit.  Fortunately I don't have a head the size of a Shetland pony, so I can pull off a clean, summer buzz plus the hat. 

 

Anywho.

Welcome to my yearly mad house, I trust you'll enjoy your stay.  I'm sorry about missing last year, but life has a tendency to keep us from our passions at times. Myself and a few friends (former teammates) will be in attendance the first Saturday of camp - the 27th.  Feel free to holler if you see us. 

While I hope to soak up as much as possible, the camp time is only 2 hours.  I plan to make a camp date in August to gauge progress so because of that I'll be focusing on a few spot mostly this time around. 

- The secondary. 

I'm a DB at heart, always have been.  It's home.  I want to see Greedy and the physical gifts he brings to the table.  I want to see how he and Ward compliment each other.  I also want to get a better understanding of their roles under our new DC.     

From there my eyes will lead me to the safeties. Outside of Randall I want to know how Burnett and possibly Redwine look.. What our 2 primary safeties will be and how the nickel spot will be addressed and by who? 

- The Oline

The interior especially. Who is going to shake out at RG between Corbett, Kush and Kalis.  Will Corbett get more looks at center? How does Tretter perform without having Zeitler on his hip?  Finally, any progress from Robinson and where might Forbes land..? 

 

Last stop. 

- The Backers. 

Not so much Schob or Kirksey.  I want to see Avery's further development and deployment.   Where does Sione see snaps? And is Mack Wilson the steal many make him out to be. 

 

I know you guys are into the sexy. The skill spots, QB, WR, etc etc. I'll do my best to keep an eye on them when I can and give my word on early returns. 

Anything I post initially will be off the cuff and any tweets embedded will either be my own or to echo a point from another's words.      Any questions?

 

Aaaaaaaaaaand break! 

 

Thatta boy!  Looking forward to it. 

I think this is the first day of contact.  I'd love to hear how Forbes looks in the Okie drills if you get a chance as well as any scrimmage situations.  These always show me a lot in terms of pad height, fundamentals, explosion and the ability to FINISH someone following initial contact!  As for base, does he keep his feet wide enough apart to prevent over-extending?   He probably has the biggest jump in competition levels; but his elite measurements of explosiveness really intrigues me. (Division III) Hobart's Ali Marpet reminds us it ain't the school you draft - it's the football player and what he's wired to accomplish. 

I'm looking forward to reading you Tia-off on all the skill positions you specified as well.  Have fun today!

As you were...

On 7/11/2019 at 11:20 AM, The Gipper said:

How can someone be both a Broncos and a Georgia Bulldog fan?

I'll bet Terrell Davis is

On 7/11/2019 at 4:55 PM, gumby73 said:

who didn't see this coming??..John Dorsey asked.."Does he now wear Brown & Orange"? too..

That's a classic!  

On 7/9/2019 at 10:18 AM, The Gipper said:

The 1986 team went 12-4.   It would be a dream if this year's team could do that. But I still think they have some catching up/proving to do.

They are not quite up to that level yet along the OL...which hopefull can prove to mesh well together as that group did;   LBs, DBs, or special teams.    Perhaps big edges for this year's team at WR, and most importantly, along the DL  will make them match up to 1986. 

Outside of the final 2 minutes of the 1986 post season - that season was a very fond memory for me and my family.  It was the re-birth of beating Pittsburgh at least once a season, which would be REAL nice to return to in 2019.  It re-confirmed how important the running game has always been to the winning tradition of the franchise.  From the physicality of Mack and Byner to the speed of Curtis Dickey to the ability to convert 3rd downs with Herman Fontenot (47 receptions for 559 yards).   Little bit of everything to make the opponent feel like a whole lotta nothing.  Chubb showed us plenty to get excited about. What's to say Hilliard can't give us what Fontenot did if it has to come to that? 

Meatball on spaghetti, only 10 of Kosar's 531 passes were intercepted to perpetuate the favorable time of possession advantage that had us understanding the best defense is a great offense (that doesn't turn over the football).  It also allows the defense to rest and keep fresh legs when they do play less than 50% of the game as beneficiaries of the offense.  Over the years people have brought up (the 2nd year QB) Kosar only threw 17 TD passes in 86; but he was also already on his 2nd OC (my fave- Lindy Infante).  Infante took over an offense that had a RB and a FB rush for over 1000 yards apiece in 1985 with goals of keeping ball control via accurate short passes from Kosar in lieu of handing off.  We went from 76 receptions from the RB position in 85 to 122 receptions from the RBs in 86.   IMO, that was a masterful way to prevent/sting the blitz despite the reality we had a cement shoe'd QB baiting it.   Watching Kosar beat the blitz time after time to keep drives alive especially on 3rd downs featuring the 1-2 punch of undrafted RB Fontentot (47 receptions) and 4th round WR Brian Brennan (who led our WRs with 55 receptions) meant more to me than how many TD passes Bernie threw.  Those are what led to the points we needed for 12 wins in a regular season.

Today, Baker packs the same leadership cred with teammates while his performance has CPR'd excitement and enthusiasm throughout our fanbase. Meanwhile Dorsey added another pass rusher (Vernon) and talent DT (Richardson) to compliment Garrett and Ogunjobi upfront while he also drafted (CB) Greedy Williams to a couple young LBers to press people for playing time.  My guess is the better we are up front and at the back end - the challenges of playing LBer get a little bit easier.  When Williams had Peppers lining up in Toronto most of 2017 - the extended/boundary-free hook zones to the right and left of MLB (Schobert) had to leave him feeling helpless.  The ole saying robbing Peter to pay Paul - Schobert was Peter while I never did find out who Paul was in that scenario.  Anyway, we now have a collection of talent where we no longer have to look to smoke and mirrors despair that gashed this defense and victimized some positions as much as injuries.  I get the feeling we can bring a much better pass rush than our 86 team which should only help the exciting talent/depth we have at CB.  Gotta thank Dorsey for this kind of feeling about what he's building.

1 hour ago, Dutch Oven said:

There were a lot of really good players on the 1985-1989 Browns, but the only player who I think has a chance for the HOF is Matthews, and that seems somewhat in the air. 

Well said Dutch!  And I'm afraid the more he gets overlooked - the more the those in charge of the selection process feel that practice makes perfect with keeping him out.

Matthews has played every different LBer position extremely well in the 3-4 here when situations caused him to move out of his comfort zone to fill-in. That deserves a lot more credit than he's ever gotten for it.  We had 2 game changers in the 1st round of the 78 draft. They were Ozzie Newsome and Clay Matthews.  Coincidentally, the decade that immediately followed (80s) was the one the Browns frequented the playoffs the most in my lifetime as a fan. Both guys were great leaders on their side of the ball, that had great long careers for us.  That length of reliability up against what Cleveland became throughout most of their absence only acknowledges 1 HOFer IMO

I was at the playoff game where Cleveland was the last AFC Team to beat Buffalo in the playoffs prior to their 4 consecutive AFC Championships.  What sealed the deal was Clay Matthews' interception of Jim Kelly at the 2 yard line.

IMO, if this HOF selection process was done by NFL peers (opponents and teammates) - guys like Anthony Munoz, Bruce Matthews and Joe Delamielleure (who practiced against him) like they did other HOF players say Clay Matthews definitely belongs in the HOF. Even though Bruce is his brother, on the field of play they were division rivals that tried to beat one another. 

As much as I criticize Tony Grossi in recent years - he had a great article December of 2018 about Matthews being overlooked by the NFL HOF.

And when Gene Hickerson finally landed in the HOF - it would have been nice if he still knew what his name was or where he was and why.  Other guys get inducted after they die.  Meanwhile, it allows Me-O in the midst of another meow tantrum to be inducted on his terms. I'd rather see someone like Clay that never put "I before team"  than selfish entitled brats.  BTW, TO never made a playoff caliber team a Superbowl Champion either; but he did blame McNabb while he called Garcia a homo after post season losses.

On 7/1/2019 at 2:58 PM, nickers said:

Again.. It's a "RUMOR"

Are you confusing this with Ghoolie's Facebook Nickers?

It's not a rumor that this kid was where he shouldn't be especially at an hour he shouldn't be considering the situation he has already put himself in.  It's like giving a pyromaniac a box of matches and telling us not to worry because you told him to be careful.  Oh okay, phew!

7 minutes ago, hoorta said:

True dat- ditto for some of the other patriarchs. 

As our Steeler trolls like to point out- Jim Brown tossed a woman off a balcony, and nothing came of it. Today, you're probably gone for at least a year for that stunt. And back in the day, everyone didn't have a cell phone they could whip out and start taking movies that they could sell to TMZ.   Yeah, Ray Rice would probably still have  been playing if you turned the clock back to the 60s when hotels didn't have security cameras planted everywhere.  

What the Steeler Trolls repeatedly misrepresented was that the balcony incident was in 1968.   Guys usually don't get suspended in the NFL for an incident that takes place 3 years after they retired.   Good luck getting a Steeler fan to understand that one.  Unfortunately, that is also 1 time Pittsburgh fans don't want to hear the victim dropped all charges.  I will reward their creativity for changing the truth from a 2nd story balcony to a 5th story balcony 5 decades later...

All of that never changed the reality that Ben Rapen's victim count reached the plural while he was paid quite generously to be the face of the Steeler/Rooney franchise.  Having said that, I will admit he was only a Volunteer Rapist... If I had a steel dome, I'd think he's a great kid too!

4 hours ago, flyingfooldoug said:

Simple enough. It’s PC to be an idiot now. It wasn’t then. 

Precisely!

11 minutes ago, flyingfooldoug said:

So did he yell for yah- wey before or after the punch? Hunt is God? Wtf is this thread? Running backs or Saviors?

I hear ya FFD.  I came in here posting about the Hunt thing; BUT found myself more interested in where the conversation went than the extended "nothing new to report" about Hunt.   That will probably go all the way to Roger Goodfella who ADORES playing Yah-wey with our dumb jocks like Josh Gordon.

The reality this idiot was where he was at the time of night or morning with his current situation means he's never going to get it.   We heard the volumes of excuses for Josh Gordon, who's still getting suspended in the NFL's version of Camelot. 

I don't remember worrying about Leroy Kelly, Greg Pruitt, and Mike Pruitt making dumb choices like Pac Man Jones any more than I have to worry about Chubb doing that.  Isn't that a big reason those guys were/are a lot easier to root for?

6 hours ago, hoorta said:

It's why the Jewish authorities had him offed. They really had a vendetta against him- according to Jewish law, he should have been stoned. They upped the ante.

Damn- I won't continue on- unless some want me to. Moses (with brass balls) on top of Sinai asked God his name.

 

Interesting stuff - thanks Reverend!  

Yeah, brass balls not to be confused with blue balls.  Moses had more kids out of wed-lock than Shawn Kemp.

4 hours ago, hoorta said:

Fer sure, there's lots of things not biblical that some "Catholics" hold by tradition. As one of those- I have a hard time with this specific teaching- among others. Fish on Friday is OK during Lent- but cow\pig isn't. Fish\ lobster\shrimp\octopus\squid is every bit as much protein as land animals. Was that a dispensation for Italian fishermen to make a killing 40 days out of the year?   

PS- that whole concept of Purgatory has to do with things called "private revelations" that you can believe- or not, if you want to. Some of them are pretty convincing if you're a believer of those special mystics. The "official" church has never AFAIK taken a stand if it really exists- or not.  

I'm sure not going to draw a line with "official" Church teaching- and what that Holy Spirit- tells me as right- I suppose some hard cores would brand me as a heretic. There's still some "traditionalists"who think Vatican II  (which gave the green light to say the Mass in languages other than Latin) believe it's the sign of the end times. Never mind this little historical tidbit- way, way back- the Apostles didn't know much Latin- and the initial celebrations were in Aramaic or Greek, not Latin.    

 

I showed up to a thread about Hunt and landed in a debate about Hell. 

Here's my beef with the Catholic Church and their religious instructions I wasted way too many years participating in. What part of excommunicating a divorced couple and their young children from the church exemplifies  "don't judge others" and "forgiveness of sins"?    So, if a spouse is repeatedly unfaithful - the whole family pretty much gets thrown out of the church, judged and unforgiven.    That said, an allegedly celibate Priest going Sandusky on little boys hasn't been kicked out of the Catholic Church.   He just gets sent to another Catholic Church where he can rinse and repeat the unthinkable (quite often under the same roof where most of the sacraments take place). 

4 minutes ago, hoorta said:

I'm the soccer fag. If you haven't  noticed, the US ladies are kicking some serious ass over  in France at the  World Cup. 

That first sentence is hilarious!  The US Ladies win more games in 1 tournament than the US Men win in a decade.

On 7/1/2019 at 9:41 AM, calfoxwc said:

   Like I have said to friends on the board - I never was able to play - bad knee forever - but you can learn a lot from observing...I try to keenly listen to those that did - you get Flugels talking football, and it's great fun to just keep quiet and take it all in. lol

   So I have my opinions at major football times, whatever. Been a Browns fan since I was a little kid. That was back in the Milt Plum, Lou Groza days....I always loved the game, always wanted to play - wanted to be a rb - used to study every play that featured Leroy Kelly.

    It's ironic that some keep bringing up the poly board on the Browns forum, and those same someones have little content to go with their ramblings - I guess they just desire a greater audience, but it was ruining the Browns forum long ago.

   I usually just sit back and learn from the football talk from guys like Flugels and others. This Browns forum has become locally famous for Browns fans who love Browns football. Trolls never add anything to that, not even legit criticism.. Thank God Tex is only a troll on the political forum........

 

You've been on the board wanting to share your passion about football and the Browns since I arrived back in 98.  It doesn't matter to me that you never played.  The common bond we all have here is our football team and the passion we devote to it.  We all learn this game one way or another.  If I can share an experience to a situation - I try to do so. I've always enjoyed your particular interest in the offensive line and sense of humor that first captivated me way back when Shep was rating QBs based on how good looking he felt they were.  That sure led to some entertaining discussions.  

You've always done a great job of keeping your political views out of the football forum discussions!  

On 7/2/2019 at 1:21 PM, Clevfan4life said:

i understand duke wanting to go where he's not the "contingency plan". Hard to.understand why browns fans are salty at him. I mean if kareem fucks up we're expecting duke to come bounding in one week all tits up after getting "quality" reps in with the berea landscapers and cleaning crew?

And exactly where is that place after Duke was shopped at the combines, NFL meetings as well as before and all throughout the draft? The entire RB market replied with - we don't think Duke is worthy of trading an active roster guy or draft picks for at the salary Cleveland overpaid him to be anything less than #1. 

IMO, Duke is confusing the love he needs with the love he wants.  The love he needs is in the place that made him the 9th highest paid RB (in 2018) of 32 teams that employ at least 3 RBs apiece.  When you think about it - did anyone challenge Duke's comfortable niche of change of pace and situational reps as well as first dibs on injury fill-in reps all throughout 1-31 football?  No; and we never got better for it.  In 2018, the sum of Hyde and Chubb temporarily reduced Duke's reps prior to the mid-season trade of Hyde to Jax. That said, all 3 RBs had reps reduced prior to the trade and restoration of Duke's very comfortable niche.  

Now that we're seeing way more depth and talent at the RB and WR positions around the most promising QB we've had since Kosar, you better believe fans are going to be disappointed in Duke for the route he continues to choose in a year this franchise has high expectations. Bigger picture shows Duke has his comfortable niche uncontested again for at least the first 8 regular season games of 2019.  Duke's level of protest should be red-flagging an already disinterested market - that this is how the guy responds to the first big challenges a better football team demands of him after they gave him a huge raise.  He's being asked to compete for playing time just like the rest of his teammates.  How is his employer getting this wrong?

On 7/2/2019 at 12:32 PM, Tour2ma said:

Gonna disagree there, Flugs...

While I get that KC used him like he was a #1, feature back... they really did not have an alternative. Clearly Hunt is closer to Duke stylistically... it's just that Hunt is also a very effective early down back.

So while I can see Hunt "stealing" carries from Chubb as a change of pace back, Chubb is still the #1. Whereas Hunt makes Duke superfluous.

I like your point Tour.  I agree about the similar style to Duke with similar frames promoting that.  That said, Hunt was the AFC Offensive Rookie of the Year in a feature back role because he's very talented.  When you can rush for 1327 yards at 4.9 yards a carry w/8 TDs; and also contribute 53 receptions for 455 yards and 3 receiving TDs - you're an every down kind of talent.   To your point though, will his frame support that kind of usage long term?   Remains to be seen.

I was just getting really annoyed with Duke whining like he's been treated really poorly here 1 year after a generous contract extension. Meanwhile, Chubb is the one keeping his mouth shut and going about his business like he did last year when the cream rose to the top.

I've had mixed feelings about us adding Hunt.  I know he's extremely talented; but he's the type of knucklehead that finds trouble too easily off the field for comfort.  Duke and his agent have to know this. Not only that, Duke has the first 8 games to remind Dorsey why he felt compelled to give him such a generous raise/contract extension.  He's choosing to be a distraction instead. 

On 6/29/2019 at 8:35 AM, OldBrownsFan said:

I'm sure you followed Manziel more than me in college Tex. I only saw Manziel in a few of the bigger games on television. I did follow Kizer and he could impress at times but he never showed any consistency. What you are saying is something I have thought about. What "if" Manziel had an excellent work ethic? We will never know that answer because he had a terrible work ethic and failed.

When guys like Manziel and Gordon are more interested in various methods of partying that their professional careers prohibit - there's very little chance they are ever going to offer the integrity to succeed or be dedicated. They want the money but they aren't willing to dedicate themselves to the commitment of earning it.

Kizer was very young from a program and coach that did zero to make him ready for the Pro Game.  Then he was drafted by a 1-15 team with Hue as his HC and OC so the 0-16 Poseiden Adventure on Lake Erie was inevitable.  Maybe GB will train the lad into a keeper status. Who knows... Another thing that makes or breaks QBs is their ability to speed read at the speed of the game the NFL commands.  The once pronounced "Pro Ready" Brady Quinn developed a bad habit many of the scouts clinging to that never saw.  He looked onto the ideal target of Jeff Samardzija all the time which can work in college. That said, when a QB comes to the NFL such a habit like that can be tough to break leaving a guy like Quinn lost.  Brady's GPA reminded us he wasn't a stupid kid while his physique showed us he wasn't a lazy kid.  All that said, was the sum of his college football habits breakable/coachable at the NFL?  This was NOT a Pro Ready QB any more than Kizer was especially how high they were drafted IMO.

20 hours ago, gumby73 said:

anybody think Belicheck will give up anything in value for Seth? We paid a 4th and his deal is up in 2020..Pats have no starting TE's till Ben Watson returns in week 5(whine🤧 )..Seth was raised in Connecticut.. 

Who knows Gumbs...   Belicheck may give us an old ping pong table in storage or some late 7th round pick he doesn't need in exchange for the peak-a-boo-boo career DeValve has continued to offer.   Cajuste was the same guy.  The only difference was he suited up and tried to play though injuries during training camp only to be told his slight improvement in blocking the last week or so was too little too late. 

I don't know if you remember this cup of coffee career - but we had a TE named Evan Moore out of Stanford. He got injured so frequently that 1 guy used to call him Evan Moorecelain.   Like Cameron, Cajuste and DeValve, I believe Moore was also a WR in college.   During a very short period of time here Moore proved he had great hands and could get open so our FO gave him a raise.  Unfortunately, he had an inventory of head injuries to the extent he'd get concussions when his head wasn't any part of the collision. During the preseason of the year he had his raise, he had 1 or 2 concussions that prevented him from starting and participating in very many regular season games for us that year.  Even Jordan Cameron had trouble staying healthy once he became a starter.  After starting 14 games and earning a Pro Bowl honor in 2013, he only started 9 games in 2014.  Then he went to Miami and started all 16 games the only season of a 6 year career (2015) only to start just 3 times in 2016.  In all, he only started more than 9 games twice in 6 years.

None of these guys remind of the 1977 SEC Lineman of the Year (Ozzie Newsome) according to the Atlanta TD Club and the Birmingham QB Club. Some Magazines and Publications have called Ozzie a WR in college but his HOF Coach Bear Bryant called him an "End" in his wishbone offense; and always praised his blocking skills first.  It's probably why he put him over Don Hutson as the best "End" to ever play at Alabama.  In some of the college offenses today - these guys with Tweener frames aren't being trained for dual purpose at all.  As we've witnessed frequently, it's not just the mental/cognitive transition these guys struggle with. It's often the physical transition that overhelms these guys.  When you think about it, even the dual purpose gems like the Gronks and Bavaros got beat-up so you can only imagine what the workload does to lighter guys (bulking up into a new niche) that weren't born to play the position... Maybe the biggest reason Gronk worked was because the last time he had a checkup from the neck-up in high school - the head specialist summarized the diagnostic as "we couldn't find anything."   Hearsay gone viral in Western NY said Gronk's dad complained "I had to pay a ridiculous Co-Pay to hear my son doesn't have a brain?  I've been saying that for years and didn't get a penny!"

Sorry for ramblin on Gumbs.