Health Care

[heckofajobbrownie]

I'm not talking about oratory skills. I'm talking about knowledge of the issues at hand. The ones that face the country. The ones they're in charge of fixing.

 

And yes, I expect them to be thoroughly conversant in issues like health care and public finance. That's their job.

 

 

[calfoxwc]

Obamao has no understanding of the military, military issues, or the war on terror.

 

He lies more than he has any understanding of issues.

 

He is a master manipulator. He lies, but he is so good, he is convincing.

 

I can't wait for him to declare that the earth is flat.

 

That should really be entertaining.

[Westside Steve]

I'm not talking about oratory skills. I'm talking about knowledge of the issues at hand. The ones that face the country. The ones they're in charge of fixing.

 

And yes, I expect them to be thoroughly conversant in issues like health care and public finance. That's their job.

 

 

You're correct.

 

But let me go anecdotal.

 

Many many years ago I worked part time at a music store.

We sold Roland equipment who'd just come out with a 16 track recording system.

I wanted one and went to the Roland seminar.

The people who ran the seminar were highly informed about the unit but only from a sales standpoint.

Not lies, per se, but half truths and glittering generalities.

What to tell customers, how to gloss over questions etc.

I'd wanted to learn how to run it. Not necessarily why you shouldn't get a Yamaha or Korg.

 

That's the feeling I get and I think it's correct.

Ironically so far the excerpts I've seen have been filtered through Chris Matthews' objective analysis.

 

Perhaps today I'll check Hannity's take.

 

(But yes, he really is still campaigning)

 

WSS

[heckofajobbrownie]

If you want to know the ins and outs of a policy like health care, why would you go to Hannity? Hannity doesn't know this stuff. Chris Matthews is mostly a political commentator as well. That's where your analogy falls apart. You're saying "I don't like the people who just talk about sales - I want to know how the stuff really works." Well, Hannity is in sales.

 

For whatever else it was, yesterdays summit was the most substantive public policy debate on health care this government has ever had. It'd be nice if they'd done it sooner before both sides dug their trenches. We might not be where we are today.

 

PS - If you'd like to read about the ins and outs of health care policy I'd be happy to point you to some.

[Westside Steve]

If you want to know the ins and outs of a policy like health care, why would you go to Hannity? Hannity doesn't know this stuff. Chris Matthews is mostly a political commentator as well. That's where your analogy falls apart. You're saying "I don't like the people who just talk about sales - I want to know how the stuff really works." Well, Hannity is in sales.

 

That's not what I'm saying.

I'm saying that selling a product and explaining it real benefits and or drawbacks are two different things.

I think the president is doing the former.

 

For whatever else it was, yesterdays summit was the most substantive public policy debate on health care this government has ever had. It'd be nice if they'd done it sooner before both sides dug their trenches. We might not be where we are today.

But we are and it looks like it's too late.

We're (both sides) screwed.

 

PS - If you'd like to read about the ins and outs of health care policy I'd be happy to point you to some.

 

 

So did you not get the point?

That Hannity and Matthews are two sides of the same asshole.

But I'll assume you like Matthews better.

 

Anyway yes indeed I'd like a rational take on this boondoggle and not just why X wants to thwart Y.

 

BTW BarackObama.com ain't on the list is it?

 

Because I don't think he has much understanding of most issues.

I think it's his job to assign those duties to real guys.

At which time I might agree or not.

 

 

WSS

[heckofajobbrownie]

I don't see Hannity and Matthews as both sides of the same asshole, no. One is extremely partisan, with no particular expertise. Matthews is partisan, but not demented, and worked on the Hill for years. He's worked in a White House. He has actually experience to draw from. He knows how the game is played.

 

Hannity is the type to do three months worth of shows on ACORN and William Ayers. That's not what Matthews does.

 

Tony Snow or Brit Hume would be a better example of what the opposite of Chris Matthews is. Hannity's foil would be someone like Ed Schultz.

 

As for your claim that Obama doesn't have much understanding of most issues, I don't know what you're basing that on. For whatever his faults are, that's clearly one of his obvious strengths - his mastery of policy.

 

And that's not me talking. You hear it from people who work in international issues. You hear it from finance people. You hear it in the health care debate, like yesterday. Environmental issues, energy, etc.

 

The man isn't an empty slate that individual advisors can ride roughshod over. That's important.

[Chicopee John]

Except for the comedic effect, I oftentimes wonder why people just don't turn off the likes of MSNBC, Fox, etc. and simply watch C-Span.

 

No need for spinning talking heads. I find the moderators, etc. on C-Span to be intelligent and they come without the blazing need to generate ratings.

 

Thoughts?

 

[heckofajobbrownie]

I only watch because I have to. The smartest minds and the most insightful people are not on cable news. Some exceptions to the rule: David Gergen has more experience than just about anyone and is worth listening to. Fareed Zakaria. Christiane Amanpour is a great journalist who reports on stories most people don't cover. Steve Kroft on 60 Minutes. (He seems to be the only one still doing real stories over there.) Chuck Todd is a good guy and knows his way around town. I'm sure I could think of some others if I tried hard, but I'm already out.

 

The Sunday shows are only useful in terms of politics. In terms of policy discussions they're next to useless. It's all horserace.

[calfoxwc]

I want to see Glenn Beck on C-span coverage 24/7.

 

See? THAT took a little imagination, John.

 

You don't get videos of progressive leftists contradicting themselves on C-Span.

 

And, it's Hannity's job to research and learn about issues, it's what he does.

 

Commie Mathews just wants a job as Van Jones' chaufeur. Seriously.

[heckofajobbrownie]

...And there's your audience for Fox's partisan nonsense.

 

Anyone who utters the words the words Soros, Van Jones, or Alinsky - that's how you know they're crazy/lost.

[calfoxwc]

And Cnn isn't ??? LOL

 

Msnbc isn't? ROF,L

 

Heck, your arrogance and political bigotry is

 

very, very badly misplaced.

 

Your gibberish reeks of being a disaffected

 

and pouty illegal alien or something.

 

And I don't mean from Mexico. Were you on

 

the chiller channel movie last night?

 

Your retorts are getting old. Our Founding Fathers, who you

 

detest, would have watched Fox News, I think.

 

Here's a clue, Heck - Fox News is watched by the vast majority of Americans,

 

flat out, not even close.

 

But, at least you haven't been whining about Cheney and Halliburton anymore. Congrats.

[heckofajobbrownie]

You know that's not true, right? Most Americans don't watch Fox News. Not even close. You're just wrong about everything.

 

Most Americans don't watch much news programming at all. But those who do mostly get their news from the three networks. All three of them are watched far more than Fox News.

 

You don't have to believe me. You can look it up yourself.

 

Fox News is watched by "a vast majority of Americans"? Where do you get this stuff?

 

[Westside Steve]

You know that's not true, right? Most Americans don't watch Fox News. Not even close. You're just wrong about everything.

 

Most Americans don't watch much news programming at all. But those who do mostly get their news from the three networks. All three of them are watched far more than Fox News.

 

You don't have to believe me. You can look it up yourself.

 

Fox News is watched by "a vast majority of Americans"? Where do you get this stuff?

 

That's an unfortunate fact Heck.

Most people don't know or watch jack shit.

 

We here are in a distinct minority.

But for those who watch cable news I'd guess Fox has the lions share.

I did read once (I forget where) that some large percent of an age group got their news from (and I'm not kidding) comedy shows.

 

(I did love Stewart's opener "More Americans get their news from The Daily Show than any other nationality.")

 

WSS

[heckofajobbrownie]

Yeah, Fox wins the cable news ratings wars. Though their demo skews so much older it limits the benefit - i.e. the 17-34s buy more stuff. But Rupert sure knows how to make a buck. This is true. He saw the void and filled it. He also helped corrupt what we think of as journalism, but perhaps that was inevitable.

 

And if this board constitutes this informed minority you're speaking of, God help us.

 

[calfoxwc]

Heck, I've kicked your butt a few times recently, and you want to start something with me? LOL

 

Fox DOMINATES the polls, dude.

 

And, I KNEW you'd take issue with "most of Americans",....

 

but you are find with "Most of Americans" if it's a poll you and your cohorts like, about Obama, or health care,

 

or anything negative about Bush, Republicans...

 

But, if it's a poll you DON'T like, you go stupid on that. All of a sudden, polls don't matter because

 

yada yada yada.

 

There is no way, really, except for elections, to tell what "Most Americans think", or watch.

 

But I applied the rating numbers just like you goofs applied poll numbers.

 

You can't help yourself, Heck. You have been wrong about a lot of things, but you seem

 

to have no honor about pretending you're right regardless. Say, that sounds like your heroes,

 

John Edwards, Bill Clinton, and Obama, Pelosi and Reid.

 

Heck translation: " I didn't lose, I just moved my chair"

[Westside Steve]

Yeah, Fox wins the cable news ratings wars. Though their demo skews so much older it limits the benefit - i.e. the 17-34s Who get info from the Daily Show and SNL.... buy more stuff. But Rupert sure knows how to make a buck. This is true. He saw the void and filled it. He also helped corrupt what we think of as journalism, but perhaps that was inevitable.

 

It was.

And that started a long time ago.

Back to the Cronkite years I'd say.

 

Of course reading the news from the 18th century ain't a lot different.......

 

Yes, Murdoch makes money.

So does Ted Turner.

So does Punch Sulzberger though he's sailing an outdated ship.

(granted Ted and Punch have a lot of competition pandering to the left)

 

 

And if this board constitutes this informed minority you're speaking of, God help us.

 

Well it does, Heck, and you know it.

It's just that you prefer the same discourse but from the other side.

 

Browns: Good clean hit.

Squeelers: Cheap shot.

 

WSS

[BrownIndian]

I have a non partisan non political solution to this fiasco that no one will perhaps agree to as far as health care goes.

 

 

How about we do away with all this insurance companies and have patients pay what they owe to the doctors ? Let the consumer and the Producer decide it rather than the middleman !

 

 

[heckofajobbrownie]

"Well it does, Heck, and you know it."

 

I really wish you'd stop telling me that what I think is actually the opposite of what I think. In this case, you could not be more wrong.

 

[Westside Steve]

"Well it does, Heck, and you know it."

 

I really wish you'd stop telling me that what I think is actually the opposite of what I think. In this case, you could not be more wrong.

 

 

 

 

 

My take is that the vast majority of Americans don't read or watch much political shit at all.

(that's what the "well it does refers to)

 

But as for the other thing it's pretty obvious that the bloviators on the left appeal to you more than those on the right.

We just don't agree on the comparisons.

 

But if you wanna pretend they're way different, I can't stop ya.

 

WSS

[mario]

As a business owner let me chime in.....

 

I have a smallish company, 27 employees.

 

Of those 27 employees I pay health benefits for 18 employees.

 

When I started my business in 2002. In '02 the health insurance company only offered me two plans. The price for the employee roughly was about $90 a month for insurance covering up to 5 people. My cost was about $175 a month per employee. Fast forward to '10. I am now offered 3 plans, and the same plan in '02 for $95 is $138 out of the employees paycheck and I am paying $291 for it. Thats $5,238 in a month out of my pocket for health care.

 

The system is just too over priced. The majority of our hospitals are tax payer funded, yet the hospital draws in enormous amounts of profit. The hospitals then in return up their prices so the insurance company ups their prices because they need their fat cushion too sit on as well. In the end its business owners and employees who have to front the bill if you can even afford it.

 

I know many friends & family without health insurance. Going to a private company like Blue Anthem can cost over $300 a month for an individual with good health. If you have a some what troubled medical history forget about it.

 

We might not need public insurance, but at the very least we need the hospitals & insurance prices to become more regulated. Being a business owner I understand wanting big profits, but their is a point when enough is enough.

 

The issue with health care and hospitals is that they are inelastic services. An example of this is say a person who needs insulin to live. If your insulin is $50 a month, then jumps to $120 month and their is no cheaper substitute, then you are forced to purchase the insulin no matter what. You will cut costs in your life somewhere else in order to purchase your med. that keeps you alive. With inelastic goods & services the producer has the consumer by the balls. I am normally against Big Brother stepping into our lives, but the health insurance is one instance where I wouldn't mind to see some tougher regulations and restrictions on excess profits, especially by hospitals which are built with our tax payer dollars.

[Chicopee John]

Thanks, Mario. It is always helpful for ALL to hear from somebody who lives this every day - not somebody who agrees or disagrees on a hypothetical level.

[osusev]

Mario did you insurance company offer your company the HSA option? My employees turned down that offer...... in theory is sounds great but not all of them are really able to benefit as much as they currently do in their PPO. It would be great for the companies and for some employees but not all.

 

I had a couple partners that really pushed for it but we instead let it go for a vote after we assembled the option information in a easy concise format for them to review.

 

I was curious what your opinion was. We pooled our operations together so our group was larger and more diverse in age brackets and overall health.

[Mr. T]

With the current satus of most businesses down sizing and trying to recoop from recent losses of this past year recession many of those in middle management and up are being replaced with younger less expensive labor.

 

So those workers who are of age 40+ you better make yourself irreplaceable in what you do at work.

 

Can you imagine all those who be layedoff from their jobs the day health care will be deemed mandatory for all to own. Just think of the rising costs of hc for those over the age of 40. But not only will they get screwed over by losing their jobs but then those same people will get screwed again while being unemployed and having to buy a health care insurance policy from the government. or have to pay a fine.$$$

 

IMO the current HC plan is a bunch of mandatory BS. Loaded with perks for select states (that Bought congressional votes) and plenty of rules and regulations that will only strap the average consumer. I dont look for HC to be any cheaper but to rise in costs.

[flipflop]

We all know America is the greatest country on earth....just ask an American.

 

little heads up on the Australian healthcare system.

 

everyone has public health insurance.

 

a large percentage have private health insurance.....because its very affordable.

typical family of four pays $350 or less a month...... (average weekly salary is $1000 a week)

ZERO DEDUCTIBLE ..NO LIMITS ON COVERAGE... FEDERAL LAW.

 

Health care is not a cost on employers..wtf

 

 

In Australia its called common sense......here its called Socialist.

This Socialist will take it and did for 30 years.

[osusev]

We all know America is the greatest country on earth....just ask an American.

 

little heads up on the Australian healthcare system.

 

everyone has public health insurance.

 

a large percentage have private health insurance.....because its very affordable.

typical family of four pays $350 or less a month...... (average weekly salary is $1000 a week)

ZERO DEDUCTIBLE ..NO LIMITS ON COVERAGE... FEDERAL LAW.

 

Health care is not a cost on employers..wtf

 

 

In Australia its called common sense......here its called Socialist.

This Socialist will take it and did for 30 years.

 

dont try to figure it out... somehow a general term like socialism has been turned into a perverse negative term...... even though the most popular programs like Medicare/VA/Medicaid are practicing socialistic principles........

 

I would bet that most members even on this board have benefitted from socialist agenda programs and dont even know it.....

[Mr. T]

I would bet that most members even on this board have benefitted from socialist agenda programs and dont even know it.....

 

 

Not me I am paying for the free loaders. and so are you. Lets continue down the path of spending money and taxing all of those who work in this country until we go broke or the working class wises up and joins the free loaders.

 

I dont mind helping those who cannot help themselves, but I am not in the business of enabling those who can take care of themselves.

[osusev]

Not me I am paying for the free loaders. and so are you. Lets continue down the path of spending money and taxing all of those who work in this country until we go broke or the working class wises up and joins the free loaders.

 

I dont mind helping those who cannot help themselves, but I am not in the business of enabling those who can take care of themselves.

 

you sure about that? If you have a mortgage I would bet its insured by VA/Fannie or Freddie/Sallie/Ginnae....... government programs designed to help people buy homes........... you know socialism

 

Which by the way almost all mortgages are underwritten and insured by......

 

 

[heckofajobbrownie]

Of course, the biggest and most ridiculous idea of all is the idea that our tax money is going to support "freeloaders".

 

Most Americans have very little idea where their tax money goes. For whatever reason, the people who are always on about "hand outs for people who don't work" are also willing to announce it.

 

 

 

 

[Westside Steve]

Of course, the biggest and most ridiculous idea of all is the idea that our tax money is going to support "freeloaders".

 

Most Americans have very little idea where their tax money goes. For whatever reason, the people who are always on about "hand outs for people who don't work" are also willing to announce it.

 

You are correct. correct

Handouts to deadbeats is a relatively small amount of cash.

 

It's just one of those things that gets people worked up.

You know, Heck, a lot like corporate executive salaries and bonuses, insurance company profits, no bid Haliburton contracts and $300 toilet seats for the miilitary.

 

Rally issues good for a reatction.

WSS

[Westside Steve]

Good post Mario.

 

Let me ask one question and answer it as seriously as you possibly can.

(actually I invite everyone to answer though I hope we could avoid a rant)

 

Do you sincerely believe that those costs will be smaller and the care better [or at least no worse]for you and your employees if the Demopcrat health care refprm bill passes the way they want?

 

And do you believe that the negative impact on the US economy will be no worse than minimal?

 

Thanks

 

WSS

 

 

 

 

 

As a business owner let me chime in.....

 

I have a smallish company, 27 employees.

 

Of those 27 employees I pay health benefits for 18 employees.

 

When I started my business in 2002. In '02 the health insurance company only offered me two plans. The price for the employee roughly was about $90 a month for insurance covering up to 5 people. My cost was about $175 a month per employee. Fast forward to '10. I am now offered 3 plans, and the same plan in '02 for $95 is $138 out of the employees paycheck and I am paying $291 for it. Thats $5,238 in a month out of my pocket for health care.

 

The system is just too over priced. The majority of our hospitals are tax payer funded, yet the hospital draws in enormous amounts of profit. The hospitals then in return up their prices so the insurance company ups their prices because they need their fat cushion too sit on as well. In the end its business owners and employees who have to front the bill if you can even afford it.

 

I know many friends & family without health insurance. Going to a private company like Blue Anthem can cost over $300 a month for an individual with good health. If you have a some what troubled medical history forget about it.

 

We might not need public insurance, but at the very least we need the hospitals & insurance prices to become more regulated. Being a business owner I understand wanting big profits, but their is a point when enough is enough.

 

The issue with health care and hospitals is that they are inelastic services. An example of this is say a person who needs insulin to live. If your insulin is $50 a month, then jumps to $120 month and their is no cheaper substitute, then you are forced to purchase the insulin no matter what. You will cut costs in your life somewhere else in order to purchase your med. that keeps you alive. With inelastic goods & services the producer has the consumer by the balls. I am normally against Big Brother stepping into our lives, but the health insurance is one instance where I wouldn't mind to see some tougher regulations and restrictions on excess profits, especially by hospitals which are built with our tax payer dollars.