McCoy: Let's Just Get This Out There (!)

[shepwrite]

I was not a huge Colt McCoy fan going into the draft. I thought the Browns should take Clausen. When they passed on him at 38, I literally crapped myself and threw up at the same time.

 

I live in Westlake Village, like Clausen did. He's known to NOT be a dick. My son worked out with him, Spiller, Everson Griffin, Mays, and the rest of "The Freaks" before the Combine. Clausen was really, really nice to the other guys, acting like a host... and was nice to Jack, too. People here are stunned at this perception that he's some huge tool. It's a lie. Some of the upperclassmen at ND didn't like him. That part is true... but it says as much about them as about him.

 

Clausen comes from a pro style offense, unlike McCoy. He has more arm. He's asked to do WAY more things that translate to the next level. He had to work on a team with no running game and less than no defense, but somehow he ranked 5th in the nation in passing and the Domers were 3rd in pass offense. That's really hard when everybody knows you can only do one thing.

 

As Bret Sobleski at Scout.com said after watching tape on both: Clausen had to make way tougher throws and put the ball in way smaller spaces. He also called McCoy's arm "subpar." Not average. Not decent. Subpar.

 

Right now, today, Colt McCoy would be one of a few people in the league with a 5 arm on that 4-8 scale. Maybe Pennington and Edwards have as little. That's it. No clear-cut starters have as little or less arm than Colt McCoy. The offense he played in is the same one that didn't prepare Young for the NFL. It might be the WORST training ground for NFL quarterbacking in the league. It's a #1, checkdown, run dictate for the quarterback. And even at that, McCoy has questions about his ability to move through his progressions. When Shipley was covered, McCoy's passer rating was toilet water.

 

I did NOT like the pick. When that ESPN guy Michael David Smith or whatever said the Browns would NOT pick a quarterback, I was pleased. Why? Because it meant we were feathering the nest for Locker, Ponder, or Luck.

 

Now? I don't know. Sure, McCoy looks like a good value at 85. Sure he's easy to dump. Sure, his arm HAS improved year to year and looked even better at his workout, so he could pull a Brees. But what if we don't really know what we have when April rolls around? Will it be like Charlie Frye, a third round guy who's kinda-sorta treated like a first round guy as far as long-term plans? How will we know what we have when he's not going to play and so far he's not even allowed to practice much?

 

What do you do if McCoy is still a mystery and you could trade up to get Ponder at #7? Pull a Jets kind of move?

 

That's my issue. I'm actually a little intrigued by McCoy because Holmgren is clearly intrigued by McCoy (unlike everybody else in the Browns draft room). We have to know that third round draft picks do NOT become starters for their original team. In fact, for the most part, nobody drafted after about 33 becomes a starter for his original team... at least for very long. Only Brady and Romo sit as the exceptions to the rule right now. We'll see about Henne and Kolb, a couple second rounders.

 

All the other starters are first round picks (probably 19 of them next year) or guys on second or even third teams (Schaub, Hasselbeck, Favre, Brees, etc.). It's just crazy rare to draft a guy later than round one and then start him for 10 years.

 

But, all that said... stuff happens. But some of it needs to happen this year, in full view of Holmgren, or we need to get our franchise QB next year.

[shepwrite]

Oh, some other inside shit from trainers around here: Bradford is a shy little pussy. Not a take charge kind of guy. Clausen is.

 

Oh, and this is the kind of calm, thoughtful post I'd put up on the other board... and a jihad would result. Full on.

[Thaak]

Not sure I agree with you Shep. But time will of course tell.

 

To me, it was telling when the Panthers drafted Pike as well as Clausen.

[ATENEARS]

Not sure I agree with you either, and I will be taking the wait-n-see approached. I'm not really eager to see what we have in him and on the same token I hope that we aren't ever in the position again to draft high enough to take the first overall, so it is a double-edged sword.

 

Good stuff on the 3rd round picks not leading franchises though, that creates some thought. If you feed me these reports everyday I may start calling McCoy a homo by the second preseason game, but I'd rather prefer to focus on the revamped defensive backfield and eager to see us pound the rock on offense, while ignoring our junior high WR corps.

 

I didn't want to draft Quinn, but thought it was kind of cool that we jumped back into the first round to catch his free fall. I sort of luke-warm-liked Colt, but would have rather had his target, Shipley. I kind of liked that we caught him in his own free fall too, or at least understood the pick was needed for cosmetic draft grades to keep fan interest. I can live with the pick though and look forward to seeing him make that attempt to be a third round franchise QB someday (did I just type that?). What am I talking about, I hate QB's ... go back to Barking Retard with this koolaid shit!

 

Cool, we have a line drawn in the sand though and a real Wild Wild West show-down brewing in Colt McCoy ... from Texas. Bring it on, message boards are for opinions and I love someone taking a stance.

 

I hope you are wrong.

 

 

 

[shepwrite]

Oh, I hope I'm wrong, too. I really, really do. I just don't feel like McCoy is our guy for the next 10 years.

 

I'm with Kiper. I still think Clausen was one of the top 10 prospects.

 

I'm pretty excited about practically everything else.

[miktoxic]

i agree with the reports that alot of scouts and 'draftologists' had out on mccoy before the draft. hey, i know he's a 'good' kid and all but he wasn't my fave prospect going into the draft. BUT i do think that our dynamic duo of holmgren and mangini can sniff out a winner now and again. not saying that every move these guys have made in the past have panned out but i'll give them the benefit of the doubt (for the time being).

 

clausen will probably turn out to be a great quarterback. i think we all here as browns fans though couldn't see us taking him because of the bad taste that quinn left us. hey he might be alright one day but for us: he sucked.

 

pike was the guy i was hoping we would take. more of the physical specimen that gms and coaches are looking for these days. big and tall with a strong arm.

 

but like you i'm excited about everything else and can't wait to see these guys take the field!

[shepwrite]

Also adding to my angst: Nothing but cheery reports about Clausen in Carolina (my youngest son's team, he was born there)... both as far as talent and attitude. I felt the same way when we didn't get Aaron Rodgers. I just think we missed on this one.

 

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/columns/stor...&id=5296873

[The Gipper]

Also adding to my angst: Nothing but cheery reports about Clausen in Carolina (my youngest son's team, he was born there)... both as far as talent and attitude. I felt the same way when we didn't get Aaron Rodgers. I just think we missed on this one.

 

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/columns/stor...&id=5296873

 

 

No worries mate. My prediction is that McCoy will end up being far better than Clausen.

 

Call it a gut feeling....and by god my gut is ample enough that you need to listen to it when it has feelings.

[halfsane]

No worries mate. My prediction is that McCoy will end up being far better than Clausen.

 

Call it a gut feeling....and by god my gut is ample enough that you need to listen to it when it has feelings

.

 

 

Clausen looks like a penis, 'nuff said. I don't think either will be great in the NFL, but I like Colts attitude and hope to see him get a shot. I was extremely relieved that we did not take a QB in the first two rounds. We just are/were not ready for a high round QB until we can run the ball with force and play crushing D. Can't wait for Sept!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[ATENEARS]

Clausen looks like a penis, 'nuff said. I don't think either will be great in the NFL, but I like Colts attitude and hope to see him get a shot. I was extremely relieved that we did not take a QB in the first two rounds. We just are/were not ready for a high round QB until we can run the ball with force and play crushing D. Can't wait for Sept!

 

I agree. It is crucial that we establish the makes of a true force run game this season. I'm a bit worried about the QB position only from the stance that the WR position scares the shit out of me which may make establishing the run just that much harder. Then we are back to which comes first again, the chicken or the egg.

[shepwrite]

Like Holmgren said when he took over, the league has changed. It's a passing league and you really have to do it at a high level to win, now. He was referring to the Browns getting away with running the ball a ton late in the year.

 

I agree, Ate: Another reason that's true is that you can't get away with being an obvious run-first team. Unless you can also pass, it gets tough to run.

 

Teams that run well and don't pass well (Rams and Bucs last year) don't win much.

 

We really need to show off a pretty good passing game to make the running game work. Otherwise, they'll just stack the box.

[Alendor]

the good thing is we at least don't have a controversy, and everyone's not screaming for colt to start. 1 step at a time

[Thaak]

the good thing is we at least don't have a controversy, and everyone's not screaming for colt to start. 1 step at a time

 

Absolutely agree with this.

[FearTheRoo]

Clausen would have been a terrible pick for us. I kinda remember the Browns drafting a QB from Notre Dame a few years ago and we all know how that turned out. Also let me add that that "other" qb was more successful at ND than Clausen...

[shepwrite]

I don't feel like one quarterback from a college has anything to do with another. I wouldn't draft Tee Martin 'cuz Peyton Manning's good. I wouldn't avoid Ponder because his predecessors all sucked.

 

I'm telling you: Clausen will be good. I hope McCoy is, too.

[Zombo]

I'm telling you: Clausen will be good.

 

I'm telling you: Quinn will be good.

 

I'm telling you: Leinart will be good.

 

I'm telling you: Smith will be good.

 

I'm telling you: Carr will be good.

 

I'm telling you: Grossman will be good.

 

I'm telling you: Harrington will be good.

 

[lambdo]

LOL Zombo.

Hilarious.

 

 

[shepwrite]

Hey! I wasn't much of a Carr or Grossman fan... although I liked Grossman more than Orton. But I wasn't much of a draftnick then.

 

My biggest QB crush was Aaron Rodgers, but I liked Smith, too. Still do. Did NOT like Frye, as you know.

 

My misses were Harrington and Quinn (I guess).

[lambdo]

McCoy > Clausen

 

NFL success comes down to how quickly can you make the correct read and having the ability to get it there accurately.

 

Hard to play the guessing game of who will be better...but my bet is on McCoy.

 

Better name too.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Browns57]

 

If we were in Vegas based on those past predictions we would have some serious odds against Shep being correct! I for one think that McCoy has everything he needs to win despite the lack of arm strength, the system, and the height disadvantage. He is mobile, he is smart, he is a leader, and he is a serious competitor. He reminds me a little of a young Montana. We can only hope he will be that good. But I love the pick. And as I said before the draft I like Tebow's chances too. And I hate the Gators and could care less that he is religous..

[Gips]

I think if McCoy is to have any chance to make it as the browns starter he needs to leave a major impression on the staff next year, if he doesnt he will end up like wallace or quinn...a lifetime backup..

[choco]

I really don't think pickle or mccoy will amount to much....jmo, but mccoy has a better shot to succeed. He doesn't have rip messing up his groove.....with fox likely gone, pickle will not be getting the quality attention he needs to develop his game.....and it surely needs a lot.

[shepwrite]

What does his game need? He played in a pro style and had an amazing year. He's pretty polished.

[hoorta]

What does his game need? He played in a pro style and had an amazing year. He's pretty polished.

 

Now didn't we hear that about his predecessor at Notre Dame too? That's what scared me off the Clausen train- given the same amount of talent, Quinn beats Clausen in about every category. And going to the ND well after you just dumped a Golden Domer would have sat really poorly with a bunch of Browns fans- myself included.

 

You remember your "success" predictor? McCoy stacks up really well.

 

McCoy's a great "value" pick in my estimation- better completion percentage. Time will tell about the "weak arm" haven't seen him play enough to form an opinion.

[ballpeen]

I wasn't really high on any of the qbs this year. Not being a gator homer, I would have taken Tebow over any of them because his weakness is something that can be learned unlike Bradford having the pussy factor, or a weak arm, questionable leadership skills, etc with the others.

 

Interesting you mentioned that. I never said it here, but I always thought the guy looked like a pussy, but anyway, back on point...

 

 

I don't think anything has to happen with McCoy this year....as in him playing for us to get a look. I think a lot of what a coach wants to see can be seen in practice. Sure, you eventually need to see how a guy plays in a real game, but that is the last thing. If everything is positive heading to that point, you have a pretty good idea as to if the guy can play.

 

For now, QB is pretty low on my interest meter just as others have indicated it is on theirs. Delomme is a seasoned vet who has played to a high level in the past. Wallace has also been tested and has passed with good results. Add that with the fact our ground game should only improve with the addition of Hardesty(a draft steal) Pashos, and Lauvao(sp) and you have added less pressure on the QB position to save the day.

 

I think the last decade has had us as fans so focused on the QB position that some find it hard to focus on anything else....and that isn't a knock on anybody, just an opinion.

 

 

I am excited about our prospects on O and am excited about our prospects on D. We added two enforcer type safeties. You would hope that one of them turns in to a solid starter type and the other at least a top reserve and top special team player. We added at linebacker and drafted a top corner who's ability should transfer to the NFL by game 5.

 

We are still a little unsettled on the DL but I don't see that as a glaring weakness that is going to cripple us every week.

 

 

As for McCoy, the kid played at a top program in the national spotlight. That is a positive. He is now in a position where there is no real pressure for him to take the stage anytime soon....like maybe even 3-4 years....which is going to give him time to develop in a positive manner.

 

Maybe you are right. Maybe Colt isn't the guy who is going to be the face of the team for 10-12 years. Then again, maybe we are building a team that doesn't have to have the qb as the face of the franchise. In our own division we have a team(Ravens) who has done a pretty decent job of winning who haven't had a QB as the face of their team, so it can be done.

 

Maybe Colt becomes our Phil Sims?? They seem to be fairly similar in style.

 

What's done is done. No sense lamenting what should have been done or who we should have picked.

[SJ_Browns]

the good thing is we at least don't have a controversy, and everyone's not screaming for colt to start. 1 step at a time

 

it's going to be so nice to not hear the words "qb controversy" in training camp.

[Vagitron]

I was not a huge Colt McCoy fan going into the draft. I thought the Browns should take Clausen. When they passed on him at 38, I literally crapped myself and threw up at the same time.

 

I live in Westlake Village, like Clausen did. He's known to NOT be a dick. My son worked out with him, Spiller, Everson Griffin, Mays, and the rest of "The Freaks" before the Combine. Clausen was really, really nice to the other guys, acting like a host... and was nice to Jack, too. People here are stunned at this perception that he's some huge tool. It's a lie. Some of the upperclassmen at ND didn't like him. That part is true... but it says as much about them as about him.

 

Clausen comes from a pro style offense, unlike McCoy. He has more arm. He's asked to do WAY more things that translate to the next level. He had to work on a team with no running game and less than no defense, but somehow he ranked 5th in the nation in passing and the Domers were 3rd in pass offense. That's really hard when everybody knows you can only do one thing.

 

As Bret Sobleski at Scout.com said after watching tape on both: Clausen had to make way tougher throws and put the ball in way smaller spaces. He also called McCoy's arm "subpar." Not average. Not decent. Subpar.

 

Right now, today, Colt McCoy would be one of a few people in the league with a 5 arm on that 4-8 scale. Maybe Pennington and Edwards have as little. That's it. No clear-cut starters have as little or less arm than Colt McCoy. The offense he played in is the same one that didn't prepare Young for the NFL. It might be the WORST training ground for NFL quarterbacking in the league. It's a #1, checkdown, run dictate for the quarterback. And even at that, McCoy has questions about his ability to move through his progressions. When Shipley was covered, McCoy's passer rating was toilet water.

 

I did NOT like the pick. When that ESPN guy Michael David Smith or whatever said the Browns would NOT pick a quarterback, I was pleased. Why? Because it meant we were feathering the nest for Locker, Ponder, or Luck.

 

Now? I don't know. Sure, McCoy looks like a good value at 85. Sure he's easy to dump. Sure, his arm HAS improved year to year and looked even better at his workout, so he could pull a Brees. But what if we don't really know what we have when April rolls around? Will it be like Charlie Frye, a third round guy who's kinda-sorta treated like a first round guy as far as long-term plans? How will we know what we have when he's not going to play and so far he's not even allowed to practice much?

 

What do you do if McCoy is still a mystery and you could trade up to get Ponder at #7? Pull a Jets kind of move?

 

That's my issue. I'm actually a little intrigued by McCoy because Holmgren is clearly intrigued by McCoy (unlike everybody else in the Browns draft room). We have to know that third round draft picks do NOT become starters for their original team. In fact, for the most part, nobody drafted after about 33 becomes a starter for his original team... at least for very long. Only Brady and Romo sit as the exceptions to the rule right now. We'll see about Henne and Kolb, a couple second rounders.

 

All the other starters are first round picks (probably 19 of them next year) or guys on second or even third teams (Schaub, Hasselbeck, Favre, Brees, etc.). It's just crazy rare to draft a guy later than round one and then start him for 10 years.

 

But, all that said... stuff happens. But some of it needs to happen this year, in full view of Holmgren, or we need to get our franchise QB next year.

 

 

There were more than a few media outlets in the early part of the off season that did the typical "early mock draft" for next year and several had the Browns doing something to draft a franchise QB. My take is McCoy was/is good value where he was selected but I also see him as a career back up rather than a potential franchise QB. Yes he was a winner in College but so are a lot of players and it doesn't always translate to the NFL. I just don't think McCoy has the physical intangibles to get it done week after week on the level required to push the Browns to the next level. He's a Seneca Wallace type if you ask me from a larger college program. He'll learn behind Delhomme and be a solid backup. The Browns will definitely take a crack at Ponder. My opinion at least.

[shepwrite]

I think it was Alo who compared McCoy to Jeff Garcia, and that's about the best touchstone I've heard. They're both undersized with good mobility and light arms. They're both scrappers who can make unconventional plays. In just the right situation (WCO, very good team around hm), maybe McCoy does what Garcia did in SF for a few years. But he never really won anything, either.

 

It's really tough to have a team win much with the "decent" QB anymore. The playoffs have become a place for Pro Bowl quarterbacks. The days of Dilfer and Simms are getting further and further in the past as rule changes sped up the league's transformation to a passing league.

 

The Vikings had a good team that could do everything BUT compete in the passing game... then they added Favre and went 13-3, probably should've gone to the Super Bowl. The Jets were best at everything BUT passing (best at running, best at defense), but would've been a .500 team if not for the gift from the Colts. But then Sanchez stepped up his game in the playoffs and they became serious contenders... not to unlike Eli Manning and the Giants a couple years earlier.

 

But then the Jets ran into Peyton Manning and couldn't keep up... although Sanchez gave it a valiant effort.

 

The Ravens have been an up and down team for a decade now with a revolving door at the most important position. Now they have a young first round QB who put up near Pro Bowl numbers last year. A lot of people think they could end up in the Super Bowl this year because that final key ingredient is in place.

 

In this league, today, I don't see the Browns getting up there to win 11 or 12 games every year until they have a quarterback who can be mentioned with Manning, Brady, Brees, Rodgers, Rivers, Favre, Manning, Schaub, Ryan, and Flacco. We might well be adding Smith, Stafford, and Sanchez after this year.

 

My stance is this: If for any reason we don't feel very strongly that McCoy was a steal at #85 by the time April comes around? We have to take our guy. Almost every other piece will be in place or easily upgraded (a WR, a stud DE).

[ballpeen]

That is a fair stance. If we have a shot at a Locher as an example, you take him even if you feel all warm and fuzzy with Colt.

 

 

Time will tell if Colt has it or if everybody knew something when he fell to the 3rd round....and odds are they knew something.

 

I just disagree you need a 'elite" qb if you have other components.

 

 

 

That isn't to say the guy can be a scrub....just a solid player who makes more plays than doesn't.

 

 

So far, I don't think anyone here has a major lovefest going with Colt. On the other hand not many hate the guy or are ready to write him off.

 

 

We will see what happens, but again to your point, hell no....we shouldn't bet the ranch on the guy or waste 3-4 years like we have with some others trying to figure out if they have it or not....especially since he is a 3rd rounder.

 

 

You don't spend 3-4 years waiting for a 3rd round back to become a superstar. Nor should we here if given better opportunities come draft day.

[shepwrite]

Right on, and well said, Ballpeen.

 

It isn't like McCoy didn't have exposure. He was the highest profile player on one of the highest profile programs on earth. Falling to 85th and almost further (if Heckert had his way) is worse under those circumstances. Teams seriously questioned his size, his arm, and his transition time to a pro style. The Vikings were said to like him as a developmental guy for two years behind Favre, but they didn't even take that shot in round 3.

 

It's an interesting question someone else posted on the other board: What can McCoy do this year to convince the brass to NOT take Locker, Luck, Ponder, or one of the others? So far, in shorts, he was barely allowed to play and almost always dumped off short. Purportedly he won't see the field all year.

 

What can we REALLY know about him by next April? As far as understanding the offense, yeah. That's one thing. Getting bigger and stronger and showing an improved arm? Check. He could do that, too.

 

Holmgren was quoted as saying the McCoy you'll see in 14-16 months will be a very different quarterback. Interesting.