Survey: Americans don't know much about religion

[Kosar_For_President]

Ignorance breeds fear.

 

A new survey of Americans' knowledge of religion found that atheists, agnostics, Jews and Mormons outperformed Protestants and Roman Catholics in answering questions about major religions, while many respondents could not correctly give the most basic tenets of their own faiths.

 

Forty-five percent of Roman Catholics who participated in the study didn't know that, according to church teaching, the bread and wine used in Holy Communion is not just a symbol, but becomes the body and blood of Christ.

 

More than half of Protestants could not identify Martin Luther as the person who inspired the Protestant Reformation. And about four in 10 Jews did not know that Maimonides, one of the greatest rabbis and intellectuals in history, was Jewish.

 

The survey released Tuesday by the Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life aimed to test a broad range of religious knowledge, including understanding of the Bible, core teachings of different faiths and major figures in religious history. The U.S. is one of the most religious countries in the developed world, especially compared to largely secular Western Europe, but faith leaders and educators have long lamented that Americans still know relatively little about religion.

 

Respondents to the survey were asked 32 questions with a range of difficulty, including whether they could name the Islamic holy book and the first book of the Bible, or say what century the Mormon religion was founded. On average, participants in the survey answered correctly overall for half of the survey questions.

 

Atheists and agnostics scored highest, with an average of 21 correct answers, while Jews and Mormons followed with about 20 accurate responses. Protestants overall averaged 16 correct answers, while Catholics followed with a score of about 15.

 

Not surprisingly, those who said they attended worship at least once a week and considered religion important in their lives often performed better on the overall survey. However, level of education was the best predictor of religious knowledge. The top-performing groups on the survey still came out ahead even when controlling for how much schooling they had completed.

 

On questions about Christianity, Mormons scored the highest, with an average of about eight correct answers out of 12, followed by white evangelicals, with an average of just over seven correct answers. Jews, along with atheists and agnostics, knew the most about other faiths, such as Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism and Judaism. Less than half of Americans know that the Dalai Lama is Buddhist, and less than four in 10 know that Vishnu and Shiva are part of Hinduism.

 

The study also found that many Americans don't understand constitutional restrictions on religion in public schools. While a majority know that public school teachers cannot lead classes in prayer, less than a quarter know that the U.S. Supreme Court has clearly stated that teachers can read from the Bible as an example of literature.

 

"Many Americans think the constitutional restrictions on religion in public schools are tighter than they really are," Pew researchers wrote.

 

The survey of 3,412 people, conducted between May and June of this year, had a margin of error of plus or minus 2.5 percentage points, while the margins of error for individual religious groups was higher.

[Mr. T]

What many also dont know it was the churches that started the schooling here in America, pastors, preachers whatever they may go by saw a need for education during the earlier days of colonists and settlers nto the USA.

 

And as we have it today in liberal America, seperation powers of church and state those coming through our school systems are not allowed to have classes on Christianity or Judaism. But in some states they make it mandatory to learn about Islam.

 

fubar!

[VaporTrail]

Atheists and agnostics scored highest, with an average of 21 correct answers, while Jews and Mormons followed with about 20 accurate responses. Protestants overall averaged 16 correct answers, while Catholics followed with a score of about 15.

 

I like the part where the study suggests that atheists and agnostics are more knowledgeable about religion than religious.

[osusev]

I like the part where the study suggests that atheists and agnostics are more knowledgeable about religion than religious.

 

Thats because we SEEK knowledge instead of accepting on faith....... Scientists trend HEAVILY away from religion for the same reason. This is not surprising in any sort of way.

[VaporTrail]

We believe in science, rolleyes.gif who created your discoveries. they are discoveries, scientists did not create the universe. they are only discovering it.

 

No one's claiming that scientists created the universe, bro. As an atheist, I'm just claiming that we don't know, and we can't know. To call that unknown "God," isn't what bothers me about the religious. You could claim that a God did it, that aliens did it, that another human civilization did it, that we're a computer simulation. It really doesn't matter how far-fetched it might sound to anyone, because there's no evidence for any one of those.

 

What bugs me about religious, is that they claim that they KNOW. No, not a single religious person KNOWS that God exists. I don't care what "miracles" they've observed throughout your life, they only THINK God exists. And then, they feel threatened and play the victim card when someone has the gall to question their supposedly "ultimate authority."

 

Another problem I have with the idea of God, is that religions have given this being anthropomorphic features. The, Abrahamic religions in particular, claim that there is this fight between absolute good and absolute evil, while at the same time declaring that God is omniscient, omnipresent, and completely benevolent. Sorry, that just doesn't line up with what is happening in the world. If all the good in the world comes from God, and all the bad can be blamed on "lack of faith" or "Satan," then how can your god be as all-powerful as you claim? Freewill = Cop out.

[calfoxwc]

Vapor keeps making "quantum" leaps in assumptions in discussions.

 

I'm sure he did well on his test... GGG

[VaporTrail]

Nope. It rocked my shit. I just lifted to de-stress. Still stressed. Going to run 3 miles to de-stress more. Band practice. Alcohol.

[Mr. T]

Science is good, and many who have studied science and have been fortunate enough to apply it to helping others I commend.

 

And if you have had time to read the Bible you can say that a man who has given his life for all of mankind is even greater. Some do not believe because they do not understand.

 

We live in a culture where we are told to believe in man and his discoveries, and we have politicians who want to play God and want everyone to rely upon them to provide for their every need. We have taken religion out of our schools, and we are told to believe and trust in man. Man is fallible.

 

Sometimes you just need to study what has been written and research it.

 

Here is a good scripture about a man who did not believe.

 

In this interesting scene, Jesus manages to arrive just in the nick of time to save the day. Apparently while he was on the mountaintop with the apostles Peter, and James, and John, other disciples of his remained behind to deal with the crowds come to see Jesus and benefit from his abilities. Unfortunately, it doesn’t look like they were doing a good job.

 

Jesus Heals a Boy with an Unclean Spirit, Epilepsy (Mark 9:14-29)

You can read the full story here

 

Here is a list of The Largest Atheist / Agnostic Populations, Note: what type of government control these nations have over their people. Here

 

 

 

 

[Westside Steve]

Just for fun I'd like to see the atheist community take a science test and explain a few of the mysteries of the universe.

Fellows, if all you have is arrogance why should I (an agnostic) be impressed with you?

 

Your anti God dogma is as short sighted as the most devout snake handler out there.

WSS

[VaporTrail]

Just for fun I'd like to see the atheist community take a science test and explain a few of the mysteries of the universe.

Fellows, if all you have is arrogance why should I (an agnostic) be impressed with you?

 

Do the names Sagan, Hawking, Einstein mean anything to you? They've been doing those science projects for decades. Not a single one of them believed in a personal god. That is the type of belief that I am completely atheistic about. If God exists as the Abrahamic religions claim he does, then he is all-powerful, and all-good. If he is all-powerful, then why do children starve to death in Africa? Is that Satan's work? If it is, then apparently God isn't all-powerful. If it's part of his plan, then he is a sadistic asshole. This irreconcilable paradox is what cements my non-belief.

 

Could there be something more? Yes, and in that sense, I'm agnostic. However, I do not believe ANY single religion's beliefs on how we came to be or their set of morals.

 

Your anti God dogma is as short sighted as the most devout snake handler out there.

 

If I'm saying there is no chance there could be God, then yes, I'd agree with you. However, I am only saying that the Abrahamic religions have flawed beliefs. They have to have a huge jump in logic to make the claims they do. The claims don't add up to the world around us, but it's all okay to them because "God works in mysterious ways." No. People are living miserable lives. If the history of genocides that this world has, and continues to see are part of the all-powerful, all-knowing Creator's plan, then he's simply an asshole.

[Westside Steve]

Just for fun I'd like to see the atheist community take a science test and explain a few of the mysteries of the universe.

Fellows, if all you have is arrogance why should I (an agnostic) be impressed with you?

 

Do the names Sagan, Hawking, Einstein mean anything to you? They've been doing those science projects for decades. Not a single one of them believed in a personal god. That is the type of belief that I am completely atheistic about. If God exists as the Abrahamic religions claim he does, then he is all-powerful, and all-good. If he is all-powerful, then why do children starve to death in Africa? Is that Satan's work? If it is, then apparently God isn't all-powerful. If it's part of his plan, then he is a sadistic asshole. This irreconcilable paradox is what cements my non-belief.

 

Could there be something more? Yes, and in that sense, I'm agnostic. However, I do not believe ANY single religion's beliefs on how we came to be or their set of morals.

 

Your anti God dogma is as short sighted as the most devout snake handler out there.

 

If I'm saying there is no chance there could be God, then yes, I'd agree with you. However, I am only saying that the Abrahamic religions have flawed beliefs. They have to have a huge jump in logic to make the claims they do. The claims don't add up to the world around us, but it's all okay to them because "God works in mysterious ways." No. People are living miserable lives. If the history of genocides that this world has, and continues to see are part of the all-powerful, all-knowing Creator's plan, then he's simply an asshole.

 

 

So you missed it when I specifically said atheist?

Anyway without looking at Google I'd ask you what Hawking or Einstein or Sagan have proven about anything that matters.

Or Darwin for that matter.

 

I have my own ideas about a supreme being but we can discuss that another time.

 

But to the hypothetical Christian who thinks there actually is a supreme being that cares and wants us to follow a plan, what possible difference should it make that he doesn't know Martin Luther was a bigshot in the political workings of a particular denomination?

Or why he actually hated Clark Kent?

WSS

[heckofajobbrownie]

"Anyway without looking at Google I'd ask you what Hawking or Einstein or Sagan have proven about anything that matters.

Or Darwin for that matter."

 

I really, really enjoyed that. It says so much.

 

Carry on.

[VaporTrail]

So you missed it when I specifically said atheist?

Anyway without looking at Google I'd ask you what Hawking or Einstein or Sagan have proven about anything that matters.

Or Darwin for that matter.

 

If you don't think that anything that these men did matters to a common person, then you really don't have any idea what you're talking about. I'm not trying to be a snob about it, but really, the impact that these men have had on us is astounding, and there's no basis for what you said. Einstein especially... GPS? It works because of relativistic effects. Your computer? Tunneling of electrons. Everything that we use light for... He came up with the idea that it's packaged into photons. Sagan got closer to the origin of life than any religion has; he showed that amino acids could form from a mixture of chemicals that are hypothesized to make up the primordial oceans. As for Hawking, he's delved deeply into exploring and understanding the makeup of the universe and theories pertaining to black holes.

 

But to the hypothetical Christian who thinks there actually is a supreme being that cares and wants us to follow a plan, what possible difference should it make that he doesn't know Martin Luther was a bigshot in the political workings of a particular denomination?

 

Because they claim that their religion is more absolutely correct than anyone else's. I think that it's a bold statement to make if you don't even bother to learn about religions that you don't accept.

[Westside Steve]

]If you don't think that anything that these men did matters to a common person, then you really don't have any idea what you're talking about. I'm not trying to be a snob about it, but really, the impact that these men have had on us is astounding, and there's no basis for what you said. Einstein especially... GPS? It works because of relativistic effects. Your computer? Tunneling of electrons. Everything that we use light for... He came up with the idea that it's packaged into photons. Sagan got closer to the origin of life than any religion has; he showed that amino acids could form from a mixture of chemicals that are hypothesized to make up the primordial oceans. As for Hawking, he's delved deeply into exploring and understanding the makeup of the universe and theories pertaining to black holes.

 

It's funny how those (well many of those) who feel the need to denigrate religion do so by making gods out of scientists.

We do get into hero worship here eh?

Yes I grant that Einstein was something of a savant. Still I say we'd not be noticeably less happy had he never lived.

The world could live without anything that directly and soloely developed (well actually other genius savants) and furher whatever actual new realizations of the nature of the universe would have been discovered by someone else in the huge scientific community.

Unless of course there are only convoluted theories in which case it's as impressive as the Urantia or the Book of Mormon.

Anyone who pays any attention to history can read about the mighty geniuses of their day and see the horseshit from which a few gems modeen day scholars have picked.

Still the bulk of theoretic thinking often look barbaric in a few short centuries.

 

We like to make heroes and mostly buy into what we're taught.

There would still be music had Beethoven never lived. We'd have placed someone else on his pedestal.

Undersand?

Even if you can't it's silly to "prove" there's no God because a handful of savants don't buy in.

Isaac Newton

Morse

Einstein

Copernicus

Galileo

Pascal

Kelvin

Kepler

Descartes

Mendel

Pasteur

These guys all believe and so what?

So does the worlds greatest political genius Barack Obama.

 

But it's great to see Heck weigh in with absolutely no idea what he's talking about.

"Well if he wasn't really smart, why do they call him Einstein?? Huh??!!"

 

As I say I don't believe the supreme (or superior) understands us nor we him but that's a different subject.

 

All I ask of the great mids is to explain a real mystery.

 

 

 

 

Because they claim that their religion is more absolutely correct than anyone else's. I think that it's a bold statement to make if you don't even bother to learn about religions that you don't accept.

 

 

And I'd say that's true of a devout Lutheran who doesn't know who Luther is.

I wouldn't expect him to know Burton Stone.

One can believe in God and the Savior without knowing much about the politics of the denominations.

 

You yourself probably have a nade up set of morals completely unrelated to nature.

We all do.

So why aren't you an idiot?

WSS

[Westside Steve]

"Anyway without looking at Google I'd ask you what Hawking or Einstein or Sagan have proven about anything that matters.

Or Darwin for that matter."

 

I really, really enjoyed that. It says so much.

 

Carry on.

 

 

Translation: "I got nothing." -Heck

 

WSS

[osusev]

wow.....

 

I thought the original premise of this thread was that americans ( a christian nation) dont know much abuot religion( their own included) as do a random sample of Athiests..

 

Thats not a stretch in logic by any means.

 

I live by the I dont know the answer versus some set of stories in a book that unknown authors cobbled together by a bunch of guys for political reason knows absolute complicated answers to......

 

I think a mean characteristic of Athiests or scientist is the curiosity to figure something out versus the shutdown mentality of those who blindly follow dogma or what someone else taught them...... which probably has a converse measurement of how much a atheist knows in general about topics.

 

Most "christians" I come across barely know anything about any other religion.......... its pretty sad really because they claim to "know".......... funny when you look at the logic.

[VaporTrail]

It's funny how those (well many of those) who feel the need to denigrate religion do so by making gods out of scientists.

We do get into hero worship here eh?

Yes I grant that Einstein was something of a savant. Still I say we'd not be noticeably less happy had he never lived.

The world could live without anything that directly and soloely developed (well actually other genius savants) and furher whatever actual new realizations of the nature of the universe would have been discovered by someone else in the huge scientific community.

Unless of course there are only convoluted theories in which case it's as impressive as the Urantia or the Book of Mormon.

Anyone who pays any attention to history can read about the mighty geniuses of their day and see the horseshit from which a few gems modeen day scholars have picked.

Still the bulk of theoretic thinking often look barbaric in a few short centuries.

 

I'm not worshiping anyone. I admire them for their tenacity to seek out answers for themselves instead of believing what was written in an ancient book. As for us not being any less happier, well yeah, I'd agree with you. Would we be in the same place we currently are without him? Who knows? If he and Oppenheimer weren't around, maybe the Germans would've gotten the bomb first. Would we have the same technology? Maybe, but it seems like as meaningful a debate as whether kids these days would be able to enjoy themselves as children 50 years ago.

 

We like to make heroes and mostly buy into what we're taught.

There would still be music had Beethoven never lived. We'd have placed someone else on his pedestal.

Undersand?

Even if you can't it's silly to "prove" there's no God because a handful of savants don't buy in.

Isaac Newton

Morse

Einstein

Copernicus

Galileo

Pascal

Kelvin

Kepler

Descartes

Mendel

Pasteur

These guys all believe and so what?

So does the worlds greatest political genius Barack Obama.

 

Einstein didn't believe in a personal God. And you'll find that as religions have been losing their power and influence, it's become more and more acceptable to not believe in God. So, you'll see a trend that correlates an increase in scientists' lack of belief over the passage of time.

 

I don't believe what I believe because that's the conclusion these savants came to. I believe what I believe because I looked at religion under a magnifying glass and came to the conclusion that it doesn't agree with the world I'm in. Me pointing out these geniuses and their beliefs was meant only to support the way I came to this conclusion.

 

As I say I don't believe the supreme (or superior) understands us nor we him but that's a different subject.

 

And I can't really take issue with that point of view. I am agnostic in the sense that I believe that there might be something out there, and if there is, we can never understand it. But that something doesn't interact with us at all. Throughout the history of the human race, there isn't a single shred of evidence that divine intervention actually happened. Because of that, I don't think that there are a personal God or Gods that most of the religions of the world claim. I don't think that particular type of god exists. Therefore, I consider myself an atheist.

 

All I ask of the great minds is to explain a real mystery.

 

But proof of God isn't something that can be empirically tested. The BEST we can, and will EVER be able to do, is learn as much as possible about the history of the universe all the way back to the Big Bang. There is no evidence of ANYTHING before that. Showing that amino acids could spontaneously form under the conditions of the primordial ocean is huge, IMO. Amino acids are the basis of life, and that was a huge step in the right direction toward figuring out the mystery of "How did life arise from non-life?" If you don't consider that a "real mystery," then I'd really like to know your criteria.

 

And I'd say that's true of a devout Lutheran who doesn't know who Luther is.

I wouldn't expect him to know Burton Stone.

One can believe in God and the Savior without knowing much about the politics of the denominations.

 

That comes off to me as arrogant ignorance. I know I can be an arrogant prick when it comes to the topic of religion, but as far as ignorance goes, I will try my hardest to learn every aspect of another's faith so that I have as airtight of an argument as possible.

 

You yourself probably have a nade up set of morals completely unrelated to nature.

We all do.

So why aren't you an idiot?

WSS

 

I disagree that my morals are completely unrelated to nature. Chimps are capable of altruism; why is God necessary to have a set of morals? A big problem I have with religion, is that many religious refuse to believe that morality is relative. They have their moral beliefs, and if you disagree with them, you are wrong. For Christians, see abortion. For Muslims, see treatment of women. For both of them, see homosexuality. As soon as your argument turns into, "but my book says..." I feel that you're looking past what is really happening, and resigning yourself to ancient traditions that might've been great 2000 years ago, but are absolutely horrible rules of thumb for today. I just have a problem with things being absolutely right or wrong, I really believe it's all relative.

 

 

[calfoxwc]

Now we are cherry pickin scientists who you think agree with you, Vapor?

 

Come on. Ever hear of Dr. Michio Kaku?

 

 

He says that Einstein believed that if there is a god, that God is a God of harmony, as in,

 

a supreme being that only could have caused the miracle of the universe.

 

Which is, I figure, the same God, is it not, that many of us believe in?

 

Go look up what Dr. Kaku has to say about it. I don't have much use for religion, but I KNOW God is real.

[VaporTrail]

That's exactly what I did, and it's what you're doing too. But the point is, I don't need to cherry pick; I think this study says more about it than the guys I cherry picked, but it doesn't have the same impact on you as hearing those names.

 

http://www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/news/file002.html

 

It's a study that was published in Nature. But there is an overwhelming amount of disbelief (as of 1998) among "greater" scientists compared to those that believed or were agnostic. I think that it's very telling that those who look at things most objectively will come to the same conclusion.

 

This, in no way, implies that I am more correct than you. The implication is that the logic behind my choice to not believe is more rational than the choice to believe.

 

Cal, he was asked

Source: http://www.physicspost.com/science-article-144.html

 

"FifthDream asks: Dr. Kaku, what is your opinion on science and religion? Are the two in opposition or can there be harmony?"

 

They can be in harmony, but only if rational people on both sides engage in honest debate. Einstein believed in two types of Gods, for example. He did not believe in a personal God, or a God of intervention. He did not believe that God answered our prayers. But he did believe that there was a God of Spinoza. This is the God of Harmony. He said we are like children entering a huge library for the first time, not knowing how to read the thousands of books that are beyond our understanding. Many scientists, therefore, might say that they believe in a God of harmony. For example, scientists believe in a Big Bang that started the universe. But then we have to ask what happened before the Big Bang (more on that later). Then we have to ask where the laws of physics came from. Personally, I think that the laws of physics are the only ones possible, that all other laws are mathematically inconsistent. Thus, God probably had no choice in creating the universe, as Einstein believed.

 

This isn't proving your point at all, it's reinforcing mine. He acknowledges that a being could have set the laws of the universe into motion, but that once these laws were set into place, he had no further input on the universe. This is where I stand. I do NOT believe that there is a personal god that answers prayers and intercedes with every day life. I have NO opinion on whether or not some being set the big bang into motion. It could have been a civilization much more advanced than our own, an LHC-type project gone wrong (or right), it could've been aliens, it could've been a being with powers to understand and manipulate more dimensions than we comprehend. All of those things could be what you consider "God." I have no problem with that, because nobody knows any better, and my input on that being's existence carries no more weight than yours.

 

But when you claim that you KNOW that God exists, you are wrong. You really don't know. You strongly believe in this being so much that you have such a conviction to his existence, and while that is fine for you, you still don't know that he exists. You only think he does. You have no evidence that he exists and can intercede with our lives. No one does. Therefore, it's a huge jump in logic to say that he does exist, and the safer thing to say, is that he probably doesn't, at least not in that form.

 

Here's another excerpt from that interview with Kaku

 

Einstein said that, when he tried to formulate a new theory, he asked whether God would have gone in that direction. I, too, am guided by that simple idea. When we physicists start out in the morning, we often ask ourselves if God would have created a universe in this way. Unfortunately, most simple ideas quickly lead to nonsense, and can be discarded. So far, the guiding principle has been symmetry. The larger the symmetry, the prettier the theory. Symmetry allows us to describe an enormous amount of information in the smallest amount of space. So far, the theory with the most symmetry is string theory. Its symmetry includes superconformal symmetry, super general covariance, which includes all of Einstein's symmetry as a small subset. So, even if Einstein never lived, we probably might have discovered all of his theories via string theory. This does not mean that the theory is right, only that symmetry has been the greatest guiding principle for the past 50 years.

 

He says that Einstein believed that if there is a god, that God is a God of harmony, as in,

 

a supreme being that only could have caused the miracle of the universe.

 

Which is, I figure, the same God, is it not, that many of us believe in?

 

This is in no way the same God that you believe in. You believe in a personal one that can answer prayers and intercede. There is a huge difference.

 

Also, if you remember me arguing why Deism was more similar to Agnosticism as far as the founding fathers were concerned, this is why.

[Mr. T]

Most "Christians" I come across barely know anything about any other religion.......... its pretty sad really because they claim to "know".......... funny when you look at the logic.

 

 

I thought that was the jist of this thread as well.

 

Time for all to start Studying.

[calfoxwc]

But when you claim that you KNOW that God exists, you are wrong. You really don't know. You strongly believe in this being so much that you have such a conviction to his existence, and while that is fine for you, you still don't know that he exists. You only think he does. You have no evidence that he exists and can intercede with our lives. No one does. Therefore, it's a huge jump in logic to say that he does exist, and the safer thing to say, is that he probably doesn't, at least not in that form.

************************************

Okay, I know what you are saying - but it doesn't solely buoy up your entire stance, either.

 

I don't know that God is a "prayer answerer/interventionist God"... to a point.

 

If that were true, all we'd all have to do is prayer away any danger, tragedy, struggle, etc, and we could be living in a utopia.

 

But, in my own belief, we live in a would not justified or controlled by God, and then we get into the angelic conflict, etc.

 

I have experienced a miracle in my own life, and I attribute it to God being there. I have no answer to it, but

the only way it could have happened, is by God being there.

 

It's a long story, told it before. That kind of thing.

 

But the thread... I don't get it. Perhaps agnostics and atheists are led to justify their unbelief in detail.

 

When those who believe.. well, they don't have to justify it, they just ..eh... believe.

 

I prefer to see God as the Creator of our Universe, and I see Jesus, etc, as a reaching out to mankind.

 

Or, I could not believe in God at all. But, a kid in the fifth grade, all alone in the woods, nearly dying in a spring,

 

in the deep winter, deep snow, and single digits above zero temp, and no way out of the spring....

 

I'm here. And it wasn't because of science. That's all I'm saying. I don't really care about all the denominations,

and all sorts of interpretations of what all sorts of various translations say....

 

I know I'm here, and I honestly have thanked God since that day, many years ago.

[VaporTrail]

But, in my own belief, we live in a would not justified or controlled by God, and then we get into the angelic conflict, etc.

 

I have experienced a miracle in my own life, and I attribute it to God being there. I have no answer to it, but

the only way it could have happened, is by God being there.

 

It's a long story, told it before. That kind of thing.

 

But the thread... I don't get it. Perhaps agnostics and atheists are led to justify their unbelief in detail.

 

But we believe what we believe because there is no evidence to the contrary. The burden of proof lies on the believer.

 

When those who believe.. well, they don't have to justify it, they just ..eh... believe.

 

I prefer to see God as the Creator of our Universe, and I see Jesus, etc, as a reaching out to mankind.

 

Or, I could not believe in God at all. But, a kid in the fifth grade, all alone in the woods, nearly dying in a spring,

 

in the deep winter, deep snow, and single digits above zero temp, and no way out of the spring....

 

I'm here. And it wasn't because of science. That's all I'm saying. I don't really care about all the denominations,

and all sorts of interpretations of what all sorts of various translations say....

 

I know I'm here, and I honestly have thanked God since that day, many years ago.

 

I don't want to demean your story in any way, it sounds like a fantastic set of stochastic events led to your survival. I'd say it was a miracle, in that your chances of surviving were probably slim, but luck happened to be on your side that day, and you pulled the right set of cards. Why is the immediate response to attribute it to God?

[Westside Steve]

I'm gonna mention one part of the thread here.

VT I tend to agree that morality is relative.

However, like the point was made in THE ISLAND OF LOST SOULD (are we not men?) many of those morals are anti nature.

Sure chimps might show something we see as altruism.

They'll also drive other species from their territoory and kill over pussy and food.

 

You mentioned homosexuality in Christianity and Islam.

Guess what, VT, most straights are really creeped out by the idea of sucking a mans dick.

It causes a violent negative reaction even for me, and I consider myself pretty open minded.

 

That's why most people put it on the immoral list.

As for Muslims treatment of women?

Perfectly natural if you're a bigger stronger more agressive man.

 

Fifteen year old boy xxxxs the teacher?

Well we try to work up some outrage but....

 

IThat's one reason I'm not a devout Christian.

Is it the "right" thing to do to turn the other cheek or give all you have to the lazy slug who refuses to work?

Personally I think the "help the poor" faction in politics is forcing somebody else to help the poor so they get votes.

 

And while many of you blame religion for war I say it's nationalism and territory.

Religion is secondary; just an excuse.

 

 

 

And if you say a man shouldn't be allowed to believe in a caring God if he can't pass a test on the different sects I'd ask you if you've ever heard a piece of orchestral music that moved you.

So who played the bassoon?

 

 

WSS

[calfoxwc]

Why is the immediate response to attribute it to God? Vapor

 

****************

Well, because this one morning, different from all mornings, I left Chico over on the other hill, in his barn.

 

See, every weekend morning, I'd walk over, and get Chico, and lead him out of the barn, across the field,

and under the barb wire fence he did not like, and on down into the woods. We left him out there to roam the

woods. Well, then I'd go break the ice on the spring in winter, so he'd have plenty of fresh water.

 

But, this one weekend morning, it was maybe 1 degree above zero, a record cold temp, and I decided that the ice might not break ... I'd had some trouble a few times, so I went to break the ice first. If I couldn't break it, I'd just take a couple buckets of water to him in his barn, and maybe I should just leave him there anyways...

 

it's 5:30 in the morning.

Realize, that Chico was not a happy donkey when he had to walk through deep snow. And, he was afraid of the stupid

barb wire fence. But, he would go with me, and I'd have to lift the barbed wire, and when he was close enough,

he'd stop, get stubborn, and I'd be at his backside, pushing him to go on.

 

So, this one morning, I went to break the ice first, but it wouldn't break. So, holding onto a root at the bank, I used

both feet, stomping on it. And it didn't break... except for the last stomp, and all of a sudden the ice shattered,

I lost my grip on the stupid root, and I fell into the spring.

 

It was about 6' wide, round, and 6' deep. I went through "crap, I'm going to catch cold"...to "crap, I'm going

to get pnuemonia sp?" to violent, uncontrollable shaking, true panic and fright, and at one point, I wasn't so cold

anymore, and I was exhausted and sleepy. And I had sunk underwater.

 

And I realized I was nearly going to die, and I freaked, and in a rage, I got myself alert again, got my head back up out

of the water again, and thrashing violently as I was able, and I was screaming for my Mom and Dad, and God to help me. But they were asleep back at our house, except for God.

 

And I was all alone, and I realized I was screaming for help frantically, but no sound was coming out of my voice.

I was shaking again, and my foot slipped on the little flat edge underwater again, and I went under. When I found the

little ledge again, I got my head above water, and I felt hot air on my face.

 

my eyelids were frozen shut, and I actually hit myself in my eyelids with my wrist, and I saw Chico's white whiskery

nose about two inches from my face.

 

He came all that way, all by himself. He had heard me screaming and crying for help.

 

I ended up putting my hand inside his halter, and I felt his whiskers against

my face as he was breathing his big hot breath on me... and he just stood there... so I gave a little tug, and he figured he'd back away

from this crazy boy ... he pulled me out. Every morning, I'd climb on his back and ride him back up the hill to the

little cow shed and the gate. This morning, I crawled up the bank, fell onto his back, and he carried me exactly

our usual route by himself.

 

My fingers wouldn't move or straighten, but I had to unhook the chain from the nail on the gate. But I couldn't, and angrily struck at

the nail with the bottom of my hand. That nail went "ping" and flew off somewhere. It broke flush with the side of the post.

 

The chain dropped, and the gate fell open. I staggered and fell, again and again. to our house, and couldn't open the door.

I tried knocking on it, but all the snow on me just muffled the sound.

 

So, I reared back, and frantically threw myself at the door, and it busted open, and I fell, and crawled into

our fireplace room, where I always lit a fire to come back to for the warmth of it.

 

The next thing I knew, I was waking up, the sun was bright, and my parents were wondering what the heck the front door

was broken wide open for, and why Chico standing at our back porch.

 

I learned about hypothermia some time later.

 

After that day, after school, I'd get off the bus, but I wouldn't go inside, until I walked all the way out to our barn, and hugged Chico.

 

To this day, there is no explanation for me being me, except for God's Love and a miracle through him.

I know "why don't miracles happen every day"... don't know. I've asked a bijillion times for God to explain why me...

but, though I kept expecting to hear that booming "Ten Commandments" voice reply... all I ever got was silence.

 

I figure I had a miracle, to be the best friend I could be, the best son, and brother, and uncle, and husband.

 

It's a matter of Honor that I carry with me, always.

 

Just the powerful love and friendship of a smallish, burgundy donkey named Chico? Who went out of the barn, through all the

deep snow, and under the barb wire fence... all the way to me, by himself?

 

If so, Thank God for him being my wonderful friend. If not for him, I would never have seen the 6th grade, and my family

would have been grief stricken forever.

 

I still have an old back and white picture of him, tucked away. I owe Chico and God my life.

 

And this story shakes me up very much, to this day. I'm going to try never to tell it again.

 

 

 

 

[DieHardBrownsFan]

Why is the immediate response to attribute it to God? Vapor

 

****************

Well, because this one morning, different from all mornings, I left Chico over on the other hill, in his barn.

 

See, every weekend morning, I'd walk over, and get Chico, and lead him out of the barn, across the field,

and under the barb wire fence he did not like, and on down into the woods. We left him out there to roam the

woods. Well, then I'd go break the ice on the spring in winter, so he'd have plenty of fresh water.

 

But, this one weekend morning, it was maybe 1 degree above zero, a record cold temp, and I decided that the ice might not break ... I'd had some trouble a few times, so I went to break the ice first. If I couldn't break it, I'd just take a couple buckets of water to him in his barn, and maybe I should just leave him there anyways...

 

it's 5:30 in the morning.

Realize, that Chico was not a happy donkey when he had to walk through deep snow. And, he was afraid of the stupid

barb wire fence. But, he would go with me, and I'd have to lift the barbed wire, and when he was close enough,

he'd stop, get stubborn, and I'd be at his backside, pushing him to go on.

 

So, this one morning, I went to break the ice first, but it wouldn't break. So, holding onto a root at the bank, I used

both feet, stomping on it. And it didn't break... except for the last stomp, and all of a sudden the ice shattered,

I lost my grip on the stupid root, and I fell into the spring.

 

It was about 6' wide, round, and 6' deep. I went through "crap, I'm going to catch cold"...to "crap, I'm going

to get pnuemonia sp?" to violent, uncontrollable shaking, true panic and fright, and at one point, I wasn't so cold

anymore, and I was exhausted and sleepy. And I had sunk underwater.

 

And I realized I was nearly going to die, and I freaked, and in a rage, I got myself alert again, got my head back up out

of the water again, and thrashing violently as I was able, and I was screaming for my Mom and Dad, and God to help me. But they were asleep back at our house, except for God.

 

And I was all alone, and I realized I was screaming for help frantically, but no sound was coming out of my voice.

I was shaking again, and my foot slipped on the little flat edge underwater again, and I went under. When I found the

little ledge again, I got my head above water, and I felt hot air on my face.

 

my eyelids were frozen shut, and I actually hit myself in my eyelids with my wrist, and I saw Chico's white whiskery

nose about two inches from my face.

 

He came all that way, all by himself. He had heard me screaming and crying for help.

 

I ended up putting my hand inside his halter, and I felt his whiskers against

my face as he was breathing his big hot breath on me... and he just stood there... so I gave a little tug, and he figured he'd back away

from this crazy boy ... he pulled me out. Every morning, I'd climb on his back and ride him back up the hill to the

little cow shed and the gate. This morning, I crawled up the bank, fell onto his back, and he carried me exactly

our usual route by himself.

 

My fingers wouldn't move or straighten, but I had to unhook the chain from the nail on the gate. But I couldn't, and angrily struck at

the nail with the bottom of my hand. That nail went "ping" and flew off somewhere. It broke flush with the side of the post.

 

The chain dropped, and the gate fell open. I staggered and fell, again and again. to our house, and couldn't open the door.

I tried knocking on it, but all the snow on me just muffled the sound.

 

So, I reared back, and frantically threw myself at the door, and it busted open, and I fell, and crawled into

our fireplace room, where I always lit a fire to come back to for the warmth of it.

 

The next thing I knew, I was waking up, the sun was bright, and my parents were wondering what the heck the front door

was broken wide open for, and why Chico standing at our back porch.

 

I learned about hypothermia some time later.

 

After that day, after school, I'd get off the bus, but I wouldn't go inside, until I walked all the way out to our barn, and hugged Chico.

 

To this day, there is no explanation for me being me, except for God's Love and a miracle through him.

I know "why don't miracles happen every day"... don't know. I've asked a bijillion times for God to explain why me...

but, though I kept expecting to hear that booming "Ten Commandments" voice reply... all I ever got was silence.

 

I figure I had a miracle, to be the best friend I could be, the best son, and brother, and uncle, and husband.

 

It's a matter of Honor that I carry with me, always.

 

Just the powerful love and friendship of a smallish, burgundy donkey named Chico? Who went out of the barn, through all the

deep snow, and under the barb wire fence... all the way to me, by himself?

 

If so, Thank God for him being my wonderful friend. If not for him, I would never have seen the 6th grade, and my family

would have been grief stricken forever.

 

I still have an old back and white picture of him, tucked away. I owe Chico and God my life.

 

And this story shakes me up very much, to this day. I'm going to try never to tell it again.

 

I just want to know why you called the Donkey "chico", racism perhaps? Just kidding! Good story. I imagine Chico is no longer with us. I would have made a monument in his honor.

 

[calfoxwc]

ggg, that's terrible. I don't remember how we got his name...

 

Chico got hugged by me every day, until over a year later, an airborne

pneumonia virus came through S. Ohio, killing horses and cattle, and somehow,

Chico caught it. All the penicillin shots by the vet couldn't save him. I went to check on him

directly after I got off the bus one day... I just sat there and cried over the loss of a wonderful friend

burro who saved my life. It was getting dark before my Dad came out and sat with me a while.

[Mr. T]

Great story Cal, I have a similar one after losing 5 pints of blood and unconcious.

 

All I could here or remember was some voices, one asked the other if he was ready yet, the other voice said he had a daughter and then whispered to the other one so I could not here.

 

Then the first voice said I see, and I rose straight up off of the floor witha jolt and into full consciousness, within 5 minutes the Dr. arrived and started packing my wound to stop the bleeding.

 

I have not told many of this story other than those who are lose to me. I will say God does move in his own way and in his own time. Who are we to question God? It is and has always been God's will be done, not my will be done.

[calfoxwc]

Well, T, that's pretty amazing..

 

we can only hope Vapor and anybody else, just understands we're just trying to explain our own experiences and beliefs..

[VaporTrail]

Well, Cal, my eyes are leaking. I swear I'm not crying. It's just I'm cutting these damn onions, and they burn.

 

That's really a fantastic story. Sorry that you lost your friend that way

 

But, I mean, I can contribute that story to the miracle that is the human body. If you fall into icy water, and there's a chance you're going to die, your body will kick in. It will start burning off any and all reserves to raise your temperature for as long as it can. As for Chico, animals are pretty curious, and I think that they are capable of empathy. Maybe he saw you were in trouble, and there was some kind of bond between you. One time, I was wrestling with my ex when she came to visit; I had her pinned and started tickling her. She hated being tickled and I wouldn't stop, so she squeezed my junk pretty hard. Needless to say, I screamed like a little girl, and my dog came running over, seemingly worried about me. Would a donkey not be capable of that same type of empathy?

 

I realize that there is little evidence for what I am saying, and I will never convince you that there was no divine intervention. But just based on the fact that my explanation has more supporting evidence, this is what I'm going to believe.

 

I will say God does move in his own way and in his own time. Who are we to question God? It is and has always been God's will be done, not my will be done.

 

T, I feel exactly the opposite. I think that because we have the capacity to question God, we absolutely should be holding him up to scrutiny. Curiosity and a thirst for understanding is what makes us human.

 

we can only hope Vapor and anybody else, just understands we're just trying to explain our own experiences and beliefs..

 

And I'm fine with them being personal beliefs. My problem arises when you project these beliefs onto government policies. An example that you've recently used this with is when you said that homosexuality is an abomination. Disagreeing with my point of view is fine, imo, until you pull the God card, which basically amounts to "it's wrong because this book says so."

 

Suppose I assume the God of Abraham is this universe's supreme being. (Now this is paraphrasing a quote I read). Through all his wonder and magnificence, he has created this incredible playground for us. Trillions of galaxies... Billions of species on this planet alone. Who knows how many more lie elsewhere? He's responsible for countless selfless miracles, but also for atrocious genocides... Why the hell would he care where you stick your dick?

 

I don't understand why it's such a stigma to question the existence of this God. There is nothing rational about his existence, yet, in this country, if you are an atheist, at least now, you'll never be considered for office in many states. There's only one atheist in congress afaik. The chances of an atheist becoming president are currently minimal. How does not believing in your god make me an amoral person? Why are we marginalized for this belief? A recent poll has shown that atheists were considered the least trustworthy people in the US. Until the Christian majority does unto us as they'd have everyone do unto themselves (hmm... who said this, again?), I will continue to call out the inconsistencies in their logic.

[calfoxwc]

Well, Cal, my eyes are leaking. I swear I'm not crying. It's just I'm cutting these damn onions, and they burn.

 

That's really a fantastic story. Sorry that you lost your friend that way

 

But, I mean, I can contribute that story to the miracle that is the human body. If you fall into icy water, and there's a chance you're going to die, your body will kick in. It will start burning off any and all reserves to raise your temperature for as long as it can. As for Chico, animals are pretty curious, and I think that they are capable of empathy. Maybe he saw you were in trouble, and there was some kind of bond between you. One time, I was wrestling with my ex when she came to visit; I had her pinned and started tickling her. She hated being tickled and I wouldn't stop, so she squeezed my junk pretty hard. Needless to say, I screamed like a little girl, and my dog came running over, seemingly worried about me. Would a donkey not be capable of that same type of empathy?

 

I realize that there is little evidence for what I am saying, and I will never convince you that there was no divine intervention. But just based on the fact that my explanation has more supporting evidence, this is what I'm going to believe.

**************************************

Excellent reply, and Vapor, you are right. Chico was over on the other hill, and I was in a ravine in the woods well over that hill.

 

But yes, he did hear me, and yes, our pups are very protective. And my buddy Chico... was a funny, gentle spirit with

my family.

 

It's just me, I look at nature and I see design so magnificent, that it could only have been created by God.

 

To ascribe to it... a tag of "coincidence" is so far fetched, I have to laugh if I try it.

 

True, though, when I'd sit out there watching the sky, and talking to God, I never heard that booming God voice, which,

I was stunned when it didn't happen.

 

But the design of the entire universe, our entire planet, all the biology of all the critters on it... well...

 

I see the work of God. I'm goofy that way, I guess.

 

But the miracle of the human body to survive? Well, man never created that miracle, and disregarding chance,

 

what else is there, but to look to the existence of God as the explanation?

 

*************************************

 

To your point about putting God into law.... well, that is to you, as bad as keeping God completely out of it to me.

More precisely, the values we attribute to God, are good, solid, just values to live by. To the extent that we take a few

of those principles, and apply them to the fundamental guidelines in our society, like the right to life of the unborn and just born,

and the definaition of marriage, etc... I don't see that as wrong. I believe it's wrong to throw out all principles and values,

to the benefit of anti-social, anti-status quo special interests. I don't believe our free society can survive that way.

 

When you consider the intentions of the Fabian Socialists, beginning in eh... the mid eighteen hundreds... to statements made

by George Bernard Shaw...

 

and you read Cloward-Piven's maniacle drivel... and you see our society being edged toward economic and domestic

undercutting of who we are,

 

that is, wanting to turn us upside down at every turn, I am far from being alone in worrying about these determinations and rationalizations for changing the fundamental aspects of our American free society.