Joe Haden was a BETTER 1st pick for US than Dez Bryant

[peterbell]

Hayden starting playing when he was ready. He has had excellent coaching for Jerome Henderson who in turn was coached by Mangini. Hayden has benefited from having Mangini (who is one of the foremost authorities on secondary play in the NFL). Hayden is a high character guy which is a trait Mangini insists on anyone that come aboard. Mangini is very demanding..Hayden has great work ethic and intelligence..something Coach also demands...Dez is lacking in all of these areas..

[Canton Mike]

I am not a huge fan of decisions made from "one time" Combine showings (Haden's supposed slowness) dropping a player's stock. Haden was the ONLY guy I wanted with our pick & he was possibly the safest pick on the board. He was & is:

-- High character, with a solid family behind him.

-- Intelligent

-- Extremely athletic

-- Durable

-- FAST!

-- Highly competitive

-- Self motivated

-- Team oriented

Can we say "Total Package"?

The kid has NEVER had the issues that Dez had, although I won't judge Dez & wish him well. Haden, as a rule, covers receivers like a glove & is a joy to watch tackling. He is just so fundamentally sound that it's almost scary.

When we speak of character, Joe Haden showed it well when he wasn't starting. He HAS to know his own talent level, yet he NEVER came off as frustrated or hurt about not starting (even when he obviously SHOULD have been).

Yeah, I know.....I sound like a Joe Haden "groupie", & so be it. I just love his attitude & the way he plays football. The kid is a "throwback" in the way he plays the game.

Joe Haden is a flat out FOOTBALL PLAYER & I find it hard to believe that anyone would question him as our 1st pick.

Mike

 

[Flugel]

For me, it's Green > Bryant > Jones. But I do know a couple people who like Julio more than Dez.

 

There's a TON of teams that don't play defense in that Big 12 so sometimes it gets difficult to peg which guys are the real deal and which ones won't transition to expectation level. It wasn't THAT long ago I heard Michael Crabtree was gonna light up the NFL like a Christmas tree. I even recalled warning some people he's not gonna have the mad scientist getting him the SAME favorable matchups in empty backfield spreads he got spoiled with in his conference. I was told "the kid's a stud and it won't matter." Hmmm, they seem to be complaining about offensive coordinators quite a bit in SF the last 2 years. I'm still waiting for him to look like everything people promised on his behalf.

 

Is Dez talented? Of course he is. That said, did he get challenged in conference as often as players like Jones and Green? I don't think so - so I don't think we have an accurate apples to apples working. The SEC just gave us a corner who earned player of the month to remind us of the type of talents Jones and Green compete against in conference. Consider this: how many of these Oklahoma Sooner WR studs have done ANYTHING in the NFL? Mark Clayton? Iglesius? Malcolm King? On the other hand, Jeremy Maclin came from the same conference and looks like e very nice draft pick for Heckert.

 

I've been REALLY fond of AJ Green since he aced the freshman transtion with 10 TD receptions. That shows me GOOD at level transition. At the beginning of 2010, I thought Julio Jones was overrated UNTIL I started to watch more of him down the stretch. I didn't realize he was 6'4" because of how well he moves that frame around. I think he and Green have better gears than Dez although I'm impressed at how fluidly Bryants hips enable him to change directions and apply the shake and bake when necessary. I waffle back and forth in preference between Green and Jones.

 

Back to the context/purpose of this article. Since I NEVER wanted Dez I was more than happy to remind people the draft won't run out of talented WRs in round 1 of 2011. That being the case, to add Green/Jones in round 1 of 2011 with Joe Haden already in the house from round 1 of 2010. My guess is we'll have a better chance at Jones. Just so we don't forget Heckert's understanding of the WR position, he already drafted Jeremy Maclin and DeSean Jackson. If that doesn't build our trust - then we're stubborn.

- Tom F.

[Flugel]

I am not a huge fan of decisions made from "one time" Combine showings (Haden's supposed slowness) dropping a player's stock. Haden was the ONLY guy I wanted with our pick & he was possibly the safest pick on the board. He was & is:

-- High character, with a solid family behind him.

-- Intelligent

-- Extremely athletic

-- Durable

-- FAST!

-- Highly competitive

-- Self motivated

-- Team oriented

Can we say "Total Package"?

The kid has NEVER had the issues that Dez had, although I won't judge Dez & wish him well. Haden, as a rule, covers receivers like a glove & is a joy to watch tackling. He is just so fundamentally sound that it's almost scary.

When we speak of character, Joe Haden showed it well when he wasn't starting. He HAS to know his own talent level, yet he NEVER came off as frustrated or hurt about not starting (even when he obviously SHOULD have been).

Yeah, I know.....I sound like a Joe Haden "groupie", & so be it. I just love his attitude & the way he plays football. The kid is a "throwback" in the way he plays the game.

Joe Haden is a flat out FOOTBALL PLAYER & I find it hard to believe that anyone would question him as our 1st pick.

Mike

 

Excellent insights CM! There's a cone drill assessment or 2 that Joe Haden did extremely well with at Indy that are much more parallel to his position demands than a straight ahead 40 yard sprint from a sprinters stance. If somebody could point out 1 corner in the NFL that didn't start off a play in a 2 point stance with their backs to the goal line they are defending - please share it. Haden's strengths are open field tackling, fluid hips, GREAT instincts, intelligence, overall fitness, vision as well as hand-eye ccordination and the willingness to do ALL the little things right from stance to final whistle. Canton Mike covered alot of those already.

 

While the Indy combines always intrigue me - there's some assessments that could be upgraded IMO. Indy doesn't measure ALL those Haden strengths any more than it measures QBs under time constraints so there's false positives and false negatives that are going to continue. And some of the personal QB workouts where QB and agent get to set it up so weaknesses are concealed enable goofballs like Alex Smith, Kyle Boller, JP's Lost-man, Jamarcus Russell, and many others can continue to get drafted WAY ahead of capability. The time to learn Alex Smith has terrible depth perception at the speed of the NFL game isn't AFTER you've given him the signing bonus of a #1 overall draft pick. How many more OCs are they gonna fire before a spade gets seen as a spade? How would you like to be Mike Singeltary with that on the Head Coaching tombstone? While we're at it, where were Tom Brady, Tony Romo, Matt Hasselbeck, Matt Cassell, and Kurt Warner deemed draftworthy?

 

I remembered bringing up what a mid round steal Arian Foster would be a couple years ago since UT was on tv alot in Nashville. Somebody, can't remember if it was Heck or Alo, said he's not even draftable Tom even though I agree with your assessment he runs hard. Whichever guy it was - he wasn't trying to be a dick at all. He was trying to remind me what the scouts look for in what they deem draftable and highly draftable. Turns out Heck or Alo was right because somebody with an Ernest Byner 40 time was NOT drafted in rounds 1-7 any more than Byner was back in the day. Arian Foster is an undrafted RB that Indy criteria deems not draftworthy. Perhaps I should re-word that to scouts not deeming it draftworthy. And MAYBE he wasn't even on the Indy invite list. Can't remember. Pretty good back today though right? The BIGGEST difference between him and Hillis is the reality that Andre Johnson removes Safeties from cheating up into the box. It's kind of scary to think of how much better Hillis will be once we add a Green or a Jones at WR. I supposed defenses can still have a minimum of 9 defenders playing the run; but we'll finally have somebody on the perimeter that can make them pay for doing so.

- Tom F.

[shepwrite]

Let's have some fun, here, Thomas! Good to have you around.

 

I knew Haden was a good football player. I stated so over and over, that he was a legit first round pick at CB. My issue was (and still kinda is) that #7 at that position has to be squeaky clean. As good as Haden has been the past month or so, I still don't know whether he can affect the bottom line enough to be worth that slot. Honestly, I don't know if freaking Revis can do enough to get paid like a quarterback, or Nmande or whatever his name is.

 

But that's me and I know plenty of people disagree. I'll even allow that I might not have enough respect for the CB position, given that it's a passing league (I think pass rushers will be the answer, considering the rules that handcuff CBs). I would still take Bryant and a corner a little later... but we'll never know which would have been the best for wins and losses. Plus, if we get our #1 in the next draft, it really won't matter. Big picture and all that.

 

I never believed Haden would be a full-on bust. I would have liked to have seen him start right away if he was really a Top 10 pick at CB... but that doesn't matter now.

 

LOL! Nice to see you too Shep! I hope you're not as premature with Spiller as you were with slapping the epic bust label on Joe Haden during the OTAs. You had all kinds of early conclusions made before the guy ever put his shoulder pads on for the first time. Come to think of it, didn't you trash Colt McCoy just as early and just as often? You pretty much assured everyone that Jimmy Clausen was going to be way better and had the NFL arm Colt McCoy could only dream of. Haven't we always debated your premature conclusions like Dennis Northcutt heading straight for the NFL Hall of Fame after his first minicamp? I don't think we've ever started a bigger candyass at WR than Northcutt if I'm being honest.

 

For FUN, not to be confused with thinking I can quit my day job, I traditionally pick 1 offensive guy and 1 defensive guy I want in round 1. I do this because I'm never sure we're going offense or defense first. In 2010 - Joe Haden was my defensive favorite (with a fierce competition from Eric Berry; but RAC didn't go ALL the way to UT to workout Berry simply because he wanted to be a nice guy). My offensive choice for 2010 was Spiller. Seeing how Buffalo traded Marshawn Lynch instead of Spiller - I'm guessing they feel very good about his future like the Browns once did when Greg Pruitt once cracked in as a kickoff/punt returner in the rookie season. Spiller has returned a kickoff for a TD in 2010 and he's getting reps with the first offense. Just out of curiosity, did Dez Bryant get drafted AHEAD of Spiller or AFTER him? And is Dez Bryant the leading receiver in Dallas? 2nd leading receiver? 3rd leading Receiver? He was 3rd behind the UNDRAFTED Austin and Witten when his season ended.

 

The rationale behind the Spiller fondness? In 2009, I often posted here that I wanted Percy Harvin in round 1 at a position I felt we were weak at - Wide Receiver. That said, we've also seen Harvin score from a hand off in the pros just like he did the last time Florida defeated Alabama. He's got a rare blend of speed and power that you can attack a defense and STs with in so many ways. I see a ginormous similarity to CJ Spiller particularly in their build, speed and hands. AND my research showed he had the 2nd highest reception volume of ALL of the highest rated RBs coming out (2nd only to hardesty I believe). This shows me the RIGHT Coaching staff could easily use him in the slot if need be, as a 3rd down RB and return kicks/punts from the getgo. I was wanting Spiller to be the next Percy Harvin. Are you willing to fess up and tell everyone that you were one of the first ones to tell me we were drafting too high in round 1 to consider Harvin? You might want to research who ran away with Offensive Rookie of the Year honors that season. I think I get it right sometimes Shep even if you hate people knowing that.

 

Worth noting: Minnesota got BETTER when Harvin was added to their offense. Come to think of it - it was the first season Sidney Rice ever enjoyed favorable matchups. Consequently, Rice had a breakout year and suddenly that bust word disappeared in Minnesota. It took the 3 years + Percy Harvin stealing attention from secondaries to enable Rice to showcase his talents. Hmmmm, sounds like Harvin had quite the rookie impact. That's EXACTLY what I see Spiller capable of with the understanding that guys emerge into full capabilities at varying rates. Unfortunately, Dallas did NOT get better this year. Let's just hope for your sake he doesn't have ankles like Yao Ming or it won't be very Chow Ming.

- Tom F. (I never could make up my mind if I wanted Spiller or Haden more - it changed with the wind)

 

[PlaygroundLegend]

Okay, I cant help but to chime in here, Fluges makes good points in regards to injuries, suspensions etc....

 

But it all depends on how you view Dez Bryant, If you beleieve Dez is what many see him to be (perennial pro-bowler, potential MVP etc), then it really comes down to what Shep is saying, Revis IS beatable, just as Manning IS stoppable, it comes down to your cup of tea and how you like it.

 

I can say on Bryants behalf, that he can do things, that NO other player in the league can do, period, some of the catches he can real in are simply unattainable for other players, the same as some of the plays he makes on his feet.

 

Drafting Joe Haden was worth it no doubt, he CAN be Revis, but then you have to talk about potentials.... what would you rather have on your team? Production of a hall of fame CB on your team, or production of a hall of fame WR on your team, what helps you more, which do you prefer? Thats the real discussion. and if we delve into that, there will just be disagreement... and pain... because some people are offense centric, and others are defense centric, and neither will budge