Bill Livingston vs. Cleveland Browns Veterans on Eric Mangini

[peterbell]

 

Bill Livingston vs. Cleveland Browns Veterans on Eric Mangini

by CLEVELAND FROWNS on DECEMBER 28, 2010

Whatever else about the folks at the Plain Dealer, at least they’re not shy about their plans. With very little reason to buy a paper that’s free online, we tend to miss things like yesterday’s headline (h/t Winking Lizard men’s room):

 

 

 

Decisions decisions! Oh the many decisions that doomed the Browns yesterday. Can we even begin to count them? Art Modell’s decision to move Ozzie Newsome and the Cleveland Browns to Baltimore and turn them into the Ravens; The decisions by a “moron mayor and his bumbling minions, who kept screwing Modell at every turn” while he was still here (ROFLMAO); The NFL’s decision to grant the expansion franchise to Al Lerner; Lerner’s decision to pass the team on to his impossibly disinterested transient anglophile baby-billionaire son who himself decided to make a bedside promise to his dying father that he’d make things right with Cleveland and the Browns; Carmen Policy, Dwight Clark, Butch Davis, Phil Savage; Decisions decisions decisions decisions decisions!

 

 

So, back to the Plain Dealer’s gripping good cop/bad cop drama.

 

Today, Bill Livingston goes Full Denzel with a column headlined, “In coaching the Cleveland Browns to win the hard way, Eric Mangini makes Mike Holmgren’s decision easy.” Livingston says that it’s a no-brainer to fire Mangini after the second year of a massive roster/culture rebuild, despite undeniable progress from year 1 to year 2, because Mangini is too stubborn, too conservative, and plays for field goals too often. Really, that’s the whole argument. Read it.

 

To Livingston’s credit, he at least begins to touch on the facts that the Browns coaching staff is working with a significant talent deficit; a rotation of three quarterbacks, including a rookie, none of whom would start for any more than a tiny handful of NFL teams; and that a game plan that results in a failed onside kick and three interceptions on deep throws by a rookie quarterback is technically probably not conservative at all. But Livingston can’t really afford to go any further on any of these points, including the idea that personnel dictates game planning, because if you want to generate a drama where there isn’t or shouldn’t be any, you sort of just have to ask your audience to suspend its disbelief.

 

Which makes it all the more fun when a good cop rides to the rescue. If you’re keeping score, remember, on one side it’s Bill Livingston saying that Mangini should be fired after year two of a massive roster/culture rebuild, despite obvious improvement and a glaring talent deficit, because Mangini is too stubborn, too conservative, and plays for field goals too often. From the other side, per Mary Kay Cabot, we get the following account from real live Cleveland Browns football players (emphasis supplied):

 

“Yeah, [Coach Mangini] has all the intangibles,” said [browns cornerback Sheldon] Brown, a nine-year veteran. “He learned from one of the best [bill Belichick]. Obviously he knows the plan. It’s not his fault when we give up touchdown passes, throw interceptions and fumble.”

 

Brown, who played for former NFL Coach of the Year Andy Reid in Philadelphia, has been impressed with Mangini.

 

“He’s treated me like a man since day one and that’s all I can ask for from a coach,” he said. “He’s never done anything wrong by Sheldon Brown. I have the utmost respect for him, the way he’s advised this year, and I can’t say anything negative about him. You may find someone else, but coming from my mouth, I can’t.”

 

“Coach Mangini is a very smart coach and the guys haven’t quit on him,” said Brown, who added that the team’s leaders have been telling the others not to staunchly support Mangini publicly because they needed to focus on the task at hand — winning games.

 

“No matter what you do, the only way we can save his job or whatever their decision is — first of all you have to save your own job — but you have to go out and play like you want to save his job, not talk about it.”

 

Fullback Lawrence Vickers, who came around to Mangini toward the end of last season, didn’t mince words.

 

“I love Mangini,” said Vickers. “He’s a good guy, so I want him back. If not, I can’t do anything about it. Like he tells us, life goes on. This week [against the Steelers] is our last week playing with each other. Who knows by the way the NFL goes? We just want to treasure the time we have here.”

 

“We want to keep fighting for our coach,” [Vickers] said. “That’s the type of coach that he is, and that’s how we’ve kept playing. Hey, he coached us to finish, and that’s what we’re trying to do. I want to walk out of here with my head held high and I know the other guys do too.”

 

“We’re on the verge of doing something great,” said Vickers. “I can feel it even with whatever’s going on. We [went through] three quarterbacks and kept ticking and kept fighting. We still have a lot to play for and we love to play the game. That’s something I’d teach to my kids: ‘Look at how these guys finished.‘

 

“I think we’ve had a big improvement from this year to last,” said [browns center Alex Mack]. “I think we’ve been a lot closer in a lot of games and I think we’ve played a lot better. We have a lot of great guys on this team. It’s sad to see the season go.”

 

Brown acknowledged that it’s hard to win when all three quarterbacks go down with high ankle sprains. He said the losses of linebacker Scott Fujita and defensive linemen Robaire Smith were huge blows, too.

 

“I had two or three years in Philly where we had a lot of injuries and we were maybe 6-10 or something,” said Brown. “The thing was, Coach Reid never changed. He stood the path, he believed in the plan, kept the same practice schedule and he treated the players the same, as men. And I feel that same way [here].

 

“I don’t feel this coaching staff panicked. They still sleep here overnight getting us a game plan together. And they’re still working as hard as ever.

 

“I think people are digging, trying to find a reason for us not having success this year. And at the end of the day, it’s us as players not making enough plays. That’s what the story is.“

 

Really, Sheldon? Or is the story that the Coach is too conservative, too stubborn, and plays for field goals too often? Is anyone else tied up in knots over this?

 

How does Livingston sleep at night?

 

———-

 

One last Browns-related thing today is that we were enjoying the Saints dominate the Falcons last night (total yards: 365-to-218) and it occured to us how nice it must have been for Saints receivers like Robert Meachem (4th year veteran) and Lance Moore (5th year veteran), each of whom didn’t really start coming along until his second or third season in the NFL, to have a veteran quarterback like Drew Brees to have helped them develop. It reminded us that most of the Browns passing game consists of a rookie quarterback and two second-year receivers, and that one day Colt McCoy might be able to do the same thing for young undeveloped receivers that Drew Brees does.

 

———-

 

 

[Harry Buffalo]

I hated Blosar and Stinkenhiemer because they both played for field goals. I have to admit that Mangini is too conservative for me.

 

Your also talking about the guy who is oking onside kicks and risky trick plays.

 

[peterbell]

The point of the article is Livingston is full of s**t..Onside kicks and taking shots

downfield are not conservative. Taking points when you get the chance is smart not conservative

[Earl34]

I don't consider opening the second half with an onside kick to be conservative. I don't consider throwing on first down to be conservative. I don't consider freaky formations and jet sweep pass options to be conservative.

 

Mistakes? yes.

Poor execution? Sure.

Conservative? Not as much as everyone likes to say.

[Bodogjoe]

Regardless of what Holmgren decides to do. I want this shit to just end already. So sick of hearing/reading about it.

[Nuck81]

Regardless of what Holmgren decides to do. I want this shit to just end already. So sick of hearing/reading about it.

I am totally with you.

 

But I hope Mangini stays....

[SJ_Browns]

Bill Livingston vs. Cleveland Browns Veterans on Eric Mangini

by CLEVELAND FROWNS on DECEMBER 28, 2010

Whatever else about the folks at the Plain Dealer, at least they’re not shy about their plans. With very little reason to buy a paper that’s free online, we tend to miss things like yesterday’s headline (h/t Winking Lizard men’s room):

 

From the other side, per Mary Kay Cabot, we get the following account from real live Cleveland Browns football players (emphasis supplied):

 

“Yeah, [Coach Mangini] has all the intangibles,” said [browns cornerback Sheldon] Brown, a nine-year veteran. “He learned from one of the best [bill Belichick]. Obviously he knows the plan. It’s not his fault when we give up touchdown passes, throw interceptions and fumble.”

 

Brown, who played for former NFL Coach of the Year Andy Reid in Philadelphia, has been impressed with Mangini.

 

“He’s treated me like a man since day one and that’s all I can ask for from a coach,” he said. “He’s never done anything wrong by Sheldon Brown. I have the utmost respect for him, the way he’s advised this year, and I can’t say anything negative about him. You may find someone else, but coming from my mouth, I can’t.”

 

“Coach Mangini is a very smart coach and the guys haven’t quit on him,” said Brown, who added that the team’s leaders have been telling the others not to staunchly support Mangini publicly because they needed to focus on the task at hand — winning games.

 

“No matter what you do, the only way we can save his job or whatever their decision is — first of all you have to save your own job — but you have to go out and play like you want to save his job, not talk about it.”

 

Fullback Lawrence Vickers, who came around to Mangini toward the end of last season, didn’t mince words.

 

“I love Mangini,” said Vickers. “He’s a good guy, so I want him back. If not, I can’t do anything about it. Like he tells us, life goes on. This week [against the Steelers] is our last week playing with each other. Who knows by the way the NFL goes? We just want to treasure the time we have here.”

 

“We want to keep fighting for our coach,” [Vickers] said. “That’s the type of coach that he is, and that’s how we’ve kept playing. Hey, he coached us to finish, and that’s what we’re trying to do. I want to walk out of here with my head held high and I know the other guys do too.”

 

“We’re on the verge of doing something great,” said Vickers. “I can feel it even with whatever’s going on. We [went through] three quarterbacks and kept ticking and kept fighting. We still have a lot to play for and we love to play the game. That’s something I’d teach to my kids: ‘Look at how these guys finished.‘

 

“I think we’ve had a big improvement from this year to last,” said [browns center Alex Mack]. “I think we’ve been a lot closer in a lot of games and I think we’ve played a lot better. We have a lot of great guys on this team. It’s sad to see the season go.”

 

Brown acknowledged that it’s hard to win when all three quarterbacks go down with high ankle sprains. He said the losses of linebacker Scott Fujita and defensive linemen Robaire Smith were huge blows, too.

 

“I had two or three years in Philly where we had a lot of injuries and we were maybe 6-10 or something,” said Brown. “The thing was, Coach Reid never changed. He stood the path, he believed in the plan, kept the same practice schedule and he treated the players the same, as men. And I feel that same way [here].

 

“I don’t feel this coaching staff panicked. They still sleep here overnight getting us a game plan together. And they’re still working as hard as ever.

 

“I think people are digging, trying to find a reason for us not having success this year. And at the end of the day, it’s us as players not making enough plays. That’s what the story is.“

 

Really, Sheldon? Or is the story that the Coach is too conservative, too stubborn, and plays for field goals too often? Is anyone else tied up in knots over this?

 

yeah, i remember players talking like this about butch and romeo to. no, i'm not comparing them to mangini as far as coaching style. i'm just saying i remember players speaking well of them when their azzes were on the hot seat. players more than likely are going to say the politically correct thing, even if it's not what they really feel. that's why it's kind of hard to buy into the statements mary kay got.

[peterbell]

yeah, i remember players talking like this about butch and romeo to. no, i'm not comparing them to mangini as far as coaching style. i'm just saying i remember players speaking well of them when their azzes were on the hot seat. players more than likely are going to say the politically correct thing, even if it's not what they really feel. that's why it's kind of hard to buy into the statements mary kay got.

 

 

Hillis and Vickers saying they "love Mangini" is a little more than politically correct I think.

[Frenchie]

The silence from the Browns HO speaks volumes and I expect that Mangini will be fired. I would have preferred giving him one more season and firing our OC. Focus on FA and the draft. I think a commitment to a coach is an important part of a winning tradition. Having said that, this is the NFL (new NFL?) and it is always a "win-now or you are out "attitude.

[alporcini]

I don't consider opening the second half with an onside kick to be conservative. I don't consider throwing on first down to be conservative. I don't consider freaky formations and jet sweep pass options to be conservative.

 

Mistakes? yes.

Poor execution? Sure.

Conservative? Not as much as everyone likes to say.

 

 

how about crappy clock management?

[NewEraDawg]

I think the Cleveland media is full of shit and march in time to cover their own asses .

[PlaygroundLegend]

My biggest beef with Mangini is the whole talent/character perspective

 

A good coach can take in a talented player with character concerns, and make him a good player without concerns at all

 

I get really mad when we pass up on talented FA's and draft picks because of character

 

I know its important, I know someone constantly in trouble hurts the team, but you can mold guys, and your can help them, you can mentor them, and coach them. Look at Tampa.... Blount and Mike Williams... Then look at cincy.... theres different ways to handle those types of players, and I want a coach who not only takes risks in the field, but takes risks on players, because when I look at Vick in Philly, an DeSean Jackson, and I look at Dez Bryant, and Blount, and Williams... etc etc....

 

I get really Jealous, because I know Mangini is afraid of these guys, he's afraid that he cant coach them, that he cannot mold them... Usually the most beautiful roses have the sharpest thorns, and Mangini is afraid of being pricked

[Unsympathetic]

PL, I understand the metaphor, but I'm going to pretend the word "beautiful" was not used in reference to a football player!

[WRREBEL]

PL, I understand the metaphor, but I'm going to pretend the word "beautiful" was not used in reference to a football player!

 

Actually the word beautiful is used a lot for football players and coaches.

 

2001 people magazine named a certain head coach 100 most beautiful person.

 

I forget who the coach was though

[Gips]

Jake Mangini posed as tough a question to his dad as any faced all season by Cleveland’s embattled coach.

 

And Eric Mangini was stumped.

 

“He asked if we were moving,” Mangini said Friday, referring to his 6-year-old son. “I said, ‘Don’t worry about it, Jake. We’ll figure it out.”’

 

Dont worry son, ballboys like myself are always in demand..

 

 

 

[peterbell]

Jake Mangini posed as tough a question to his dad as any faced all season by Cleveland’s embattled coach.

 

And Eric Mangini was stumped.

 

“He asked if we were moving,” Mangini said Friday, referring to his 6-year-old son. “I said, ‘Don’t worry about it, Jake. We’ll figure it out.”’

 

Dont worry son, ballboys like myself are always in demand..

 

 

You're an A**HOLE GIPS..UNNECESSARY. thats BS..slapdick

 

Sorry Atenears..ban me if you have to

[miktoxic]

You're an A**HOLE GIPS..UNNECESSARY. thats BS..slapdick

 

Sorry Atenears..ban me if you have to

 

gips is the ultimate: HATER IN THE HOUSE!

 

i'd be surprised if he's not in a neck brace from all the looking left and right. one day he thinks mangini is on "the right track" and he's "winning me over" and the next ............hang him high!

 

[ATENEARS]

You're an A**HOLE GIPS..UNNECESSARY. thats BS..slapdick

 

Sorry Atenears..ban me if you have to

 

No I agree.

[miktoxic]

You're sick of Cleveland Browns football? You have two choices:

 

1. Take a page from the veteran Browns fans and get used to it!

 

2. Go to any one of the 31 other NFL teams.

yeah or move to shittsburgh and marry your cousin (male or female, doesn't matter) and have the sea hag spit out some inbred mutts that the government (we the people) have to take care of cuz the job at quiff burger only pays minimum wage.

 

dick.