Newt

[calfoxwc]

I really don't like Romney or Gingrich. well, sometimes Gingrich really knows his stuff...

 

but other times... he talks faster than he thinks.

 

I really want Santorum to start taking off.

 

Let R and G tear keep going after each other.

 

Santorum is the only one of the three that has principles, and is down to earth, and every day American.

 

Romney is the milktoast progressive rhino, and Gingrich has too much baggage, and too much of a loose cannon.

 

Santorum should pick Bachman as his VP. That would get me to work for their campaign.

[heckofajobbrownie]

Your getting Romney, Cal. A moderate Republican from Massachusetts who doesn't believe much of anything you believe, but isn't above telling you that he does.

 

Enjoy.

[MLD Woody]

Santorum is the only one of the three that has principles, and is down to earth, and every day American.

 

Equating homosexuality to bestiality is not "every day American"

[calfoxwc]

Your getting Romney, Cal. A moderate Republican from Massachusetts who doesn't believe much of anything you believe, but isn't above telling you that he does.

Heck

********************************

Couldn't you just keep quiet and let me have my fantasy of them drafting Rubio or whatshisname in Louisiana

at the convention?

 

It does seem like a few bajillion dems have registered as Republicans and are voting for Romney.

 

After this election, depending, I may go rogue and help start a third party, since the choice between Obamao and Romney

is like the choice between a grilled cheese sandwich, and a grilled double cheese marxist cheese sandwich.

[heckofajobbrownie]

His church has almost certainly rebaptized your dead relatives into Mormonism. And Romney has admitted to personally rebaptizing non-Mormons after their death as well.

 

Most people don't know about this, but I have a feeling that's going to turn a lot of people off.

 

The only people the Mormons have agreed to stop rebaptizing? Holocaust victims. Only because they were forced to after a Jewish group found that the Mormons had rebaptized a few hundred thousand Holocaust victims into their faith.

[Westside Steve]

Equating homosexuality to bestiality is not "every day American"

Do you find either one to be immoral?

WSS

[Westside Steve]

His church has almost certainly rebaptized your dead relatives into Mormonism. And Romney has admitted to personally rebaptizing non-Mormons after their death as well.

 

Most people don't know about this, but I have a feeling that's going to turn a lot of people off.

 

The only people the Mormons have agreed to stop rebaptizing? Holocaust victims. Only because they were forced to after a Jewish group found that the Mormons had rebaptized a few hundred thousand Holocaust victims into their faith.

 

I have a dear friend who is jewish who told me that he could never vote for a baptist because they believed jews were going to hell.

 

I asked him if he believed that there actually was a hell and he said no.

 

So who cares?

 

WSS

[heckofajobbrownie]

I have a dear friend who is jewish who told me that he could never vote for a baptist because they believed jews were going to hell.

 

I asked him if he believed that there actually was a hell and he said no.

 

So who cares?

 

WSS

 

Not me. It's not like I think it matters what bizarre ritual they perform after you die. (Or when you're alive, for that matter.) But that said, I do think it's in poor taste precisely because it crosses the line from respecting other people's religion and letting people believe what they want to saying, "You're going to be one of us."

 

Plus, it's just creepy. Of all the things Mormons do, keeping a giant genealogical database in Utah for the purpose of posthumously rebaptizing everyone who isn't Mormon into Mormonism is about as cultish as they get.

 

You don't think it's bizarre? You don't think it's in poor taste to hold a ceremony where you rebaptize Jews who died in the Holocaust into your faith?

 

They've also done it with Jesus, all of the Popes...

[heckofajobbrownie]

Steve, you remember the old movie "Freaks"? That's what this reminds me of. One of us, one of us...

[heckofajobbrownie]

I have a dear friend who is jewish who told me that he could never vote for a baptist because they believed jews were going to hell.

 

I asked him if he believed that there actually was a hell and he said no.

 

So who cares?

 

WSS

 

Also, I think your friend is perfectly within his right to not vote for someone who believes that, and it doesn't matter if he believes in hell. Not all Baptists do believe that, of course. But someone who does think all Jews go to hell probably has a problem with Jews, and with the idea of religious pluralism.

[Chicopee John]

Also, I think your friend is perfectly within his right to not vote for someone who believes that, and it doesn't matter if he believes in hell. Not all Baptists do believe that, of course. But someone who does think all Jews go to hell probably has a problem with Jews, and with the idea of religious pluralism.

 

Don't understand your point, Heck.

 

I believe in religious pluralism. No problem with allowing anybody to practice their beliefs.

 

According to Christian doctrine, only Jesus Christ can forgive our sins. We are all sinners. The wages of sin is death. Death = Hell.

 

If the wages of sin is death, and only Jesus can forgive our sins, then anybody who does not seek Jesus for the forgiveness of sins - by definition - goes to hell.

 

You can be as understanding, as forgiving, as anything as you may wish but the person is not incorrect. However, he may or may not like to single out Jews for not believing in Christ, but ANYBODY who does not seek the forgiveness of sin through Christ is destined for 'Hell'.

 

Some may be, outwardly, more aggressive than others but the fact remains - if you are, truly, a Christian.

[heckofajobbrownie]

That's not what a lot of Christians believe. It may be what you believe, but not all Christians even believe in hell, much less that anyone who isn't saved by Christ is destined for it. And they'd probably say that your definition of Christianity isn't "true Christian" but more fundamentalist.

 

After all, if your version of a loving God includes sentencing everyone on the planet who happened to be born into a different faith to eternal hell, it wouldn't be very loving, would it?

[Chicopee John]

>>That's not what a lot of Christians believe. It may be what you believe, but not all Christians even believe in hell, much less that anyone who isn't saved by Christ is destined for it. And they'd probably say that your definition of Christianity isn't "true Christian" but more fundamentalist.>>

 

I'm not looking to argue or, even debate, what I said. What I said is basic yes, fundamental, Christianity.

 

Many of the so called Christians you know belong to segments of the faith who want to create God in their own image when, you can read it in a number of places in the Bible, God created Man in HIS image.

 

Lord = boss. You might not like it - I wish certain things were different - but I don't make the rules.

 

Believe what you want, Heck, but don't let your political beliefs or wishes get in the way of this basic premise.

[heckofajobbrownie]

So you'd be okay with Mormons rebaptizing all of your dead relatives into Mormonism? Not that you'd think it would do anything, but do you find that objectionable?

[Mr. T]

Sounds typical of Heck by nit picking one part of a sentence in refusal of coming back with any answers after being asked a question. He only wants to reply back with some idiotic question and skirt around the precept of the topic in hand.

 

I agree with a lot of what John has had to say on being save. But I also believe that every man needs to work out their own salvation.

 

Philippians 2 (New King James Version)

 

11And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

 

12Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

 

13For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

 

14Do all things without murmurings and disputings:

 

15That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;

 

And even today Christians are still persecuted, even in a nation that prides itself on being able to practice the religion of their choosing.

[Westside Steve]

Also, I think your friend is perfectly within his right to not vote for someone who believes that, and it doesn't matter if he believes in hell. Not all Baptists do believe that, of course. But someone who does think all Jews go to hell probably has a problem with Jews, and with the idea of religious pluralism.

Heh.

It shoulda been clear that he doesn't believe in Judaism either....

 

BTW there aren't many religions based on anything you'd buy into anyway, right?

WSS

[heckofajobbrownie]

I don't know what you mean. I still haven't found what I'm looking for, if that's what you're asking.

[Chicopee John]

So you'd be okay with Mormons rebaptizing all of your dead relatives into Mormonism? Not that you'd think it would do anything, but do you find that objectionable?

 

Are you asking me, Heck?

 

Doesn't seem to follow anything I've said but it came directly after my post.

 

Any way, it has nothing to do with what I've stated in this thread.

[Westside Steve]

I don't know what you mean. I still haven't found what I'm looking for, if that's what you're asking.

 

Just that you don't seem as much of a bitter atheist as some.

I'm agnostic for the most part but when I'm at my most skeptical I can't say as how the virgin birth the miracles and the ressurection etc are much more outlandish than the idea that He came back again.

 

And if I don't believe that I'll be resurrected as a Mormon why would I care?

I don't care that someone thinks I'm headed for purgatory.

 

As I said I\d spent some time wiith the Mormon missionaries and even still speak to one on occasion.

They all seemed as rational as anyone I've ever met.

 

I realize there's some wish to taint Romney but the service I attended was much more reasonable seeming than the ones the president attended.

 

Kind of a fine line you want to draw between the two.

 

WSS

[VaporTrail]

In my experience, Mormons are among the kindest, friendliest, and most understanding people I've ever met. The thing that bugs me about religion, is that it allows otherwise completely rational people, to throw logic away because of environment they were born into. Leads to things like homophobia and trying to enforce some imaginary sky god's rules on others.

[Westside Steve]

In my experience, Mormons are among the kindest, friendliest, and most understanding people I've ever met. The thing that bugs me about religion, is that it allows otherwise completely rational people, to throw logic away because of environment they were born into. Leads to things like homophobia and trying to enforce some imaginary sky god's rules on others.

 

Of course that helping the poor turning the other cheek loving thy neighbor is also sky God stuff.

WSS

[heckofajobbrownie]

Just that you don't seem as much of a bitter atheist as some.

I'm agnostic for the most part but when I'm at my most skeptical I can't say as how the virgin birth the miracles and the ressurection etc are much more outlandish than the idea that He came back again.

 

And if I don't believe that I'll be resurrected as a Mormon why would I care?

I don't care that someone thinks I'm headed for purgatory.

 

As I said I\d spent some time wiith the Mormon missionaries and even still speak to one on occasion.

They all seemed as rational as anyone I've ever met.

 

I realize there's some wish to taint Romney but the service I attended was much more reasonable seeming than the ones the president attended.

 

Kind of a fine line you want to draw between the two.

 

WSS

 

I'm not an atheist. I'm not religious either. Was raised Catholic and would never go back there. But it's always a fascinating topic. I talk about it with people all the time. There's always more to learn.

 

As for the Mormons, I have more exposure to them than most anyone who doesn't live in Utah. The town I grew up in, where Romney is from, is considered by some to be the Mormon capital of the East. It's where the elite Mormons go to attend Harvard, MIT, etc. It's where the 100th Mormon temple was built after Gordon Hinckley came and picked out the spot himself, apparently as some sort of revelation.

 

Harvard Business School, for instance, is littered with Mormon professors, and used to be run by a Mormon until the church sent him to run the next BYU affiliate in Idaho. When you grow up there, you're going to school with a lot of their children. I did not go to school with Romney's kids even though they were almost exactly the same age as me and my brothers. But we were lowly public school kids. The Romneys all went to Belmont Hill, a private school that costs just about as much as a college does.

 

Whoever ran the Mormon mission for the eastern half of the country also lives there. They were all very prominent Mormon families, and they get swapped out every three years. So yes, I have lots of experience with the Mormons, dated a few of them, and still call many friends. The other interesting thing about the town is that so many of these kids are from really bright families that they soon question the religion and often realize what nonsense it is, and then drop it. I'd say of the ones I knew well and knew of, at least 50% bailed on the religion at some point during or after college. It can't stand up to much scrutiny. I'm close with one family, for instance, who had five kids. (And this is on the low end for Mormon families.) And all five of them are extremely bright - Harvard, Oxford, U-Chicago - and all five of them are no longer members of the church, much to the chagrin of their parents.

 

These are also people who have known Romney for decades. Romney was the "stake president" in Boston, which is basically like a Catholic bishop.

 

And that's why I raised the re-baptism thing. It's a bizarre ritual, and Romney, having been a stake president, has presided over lots of these ceremonies. He's even admitted to rebaptizing people himself. I think it's going to end up becoming an issue, especially for Jewish and Evangelical voters. It just creeps people out. If you have worries about Mormonism, this usually doesn't help.

[heckofajobbrownie]

I would also add something to what Vapor said, because I sort of agree with it: the ability of someone like Romney to believe in the founding stories of Mormonism is, for me, a little troubling. As I've said many times, I'd much, much prefer him to any of the other Republican candidates because he's competent and moral and moderate and not very Republican. But if you can't do what many of my friends did, and get to the point where you can see the logical - and obvious - problems with how the Mormon religion was founded, and by whom, then it does worry me a little bit.

 

Basically, I think it's very clear that the Mormon religion is a fraud perpetrated by a con man. It's almost too obvious that's what it is. It's not hard to see. The fact that someone like Romney can't see is a little troubling for me.

 

Jacob Weisberg wrote about this years ago. I wouldn't go as far as he does, but I agree with him in part. Check it out.

[heckofajobbrownie]

Also, when Weisberg says this: "It may be that Mitt Romney doesn't take Mormon theology at face value." I know that not to be true. Romney does believe it. He believes it all, in public and in private.

[calfoxwc]

Well, I know you are full of crap. John just demoted your cred with him.

 

Others of us around here aren't so lenient with our grades, but John is fair... @@

[VaporTrail]

Of course that helping the poor turning the other cheek loving thy neighbor is also sky God stuff.

WSS

 

I don't need religion to come up with a foundation for my moral philosophy. I can assert that I want to be treated with certain degrees of respect, for example, if I fall in love with someone, I want to be able to marry them. I think that this type of thing should be allowed for anyone, provided both parties are consenting. When a bunch of conservative Christians trying to bar gays from marrying each other, that doesn't exactly scream of the Golden Rule, does it?

 

But yes, there are very good lessons that can be found in the Bible, the Jefferson Bible, specifically shows all the best stuff in the NT and eliminates all the supernatural junk. I'm fine if you take the Bible as a book of fables and myths, but people don't. They read into it, take parts of it literally, and use these parts that align with their beliefs.

 

Basically, I think it's very clear that the Mormon religion is a fraud perpetrated by a con man. It's almost too obvious that's what it is. It's not hard to see. The fact that someone like Romney can't see is a little troubling for me.

 

And again, that's my problem with religion. It's brainwashing. It's indoctrination. The fact is, people back then looked at Jesus the same way people now look at Joseph Smith and L. Ron Hubbard. They're cults, all of them, and that's why Jesus got strung up on a cross; the only thing separating them from Branch Davidians is their number of followers and tax-exempt status.

 

/ninja edit Changed "Robert Smith" to "Joseph Smith" LOL

[MLD Woody]

In my experience, Mormons are among the kindest, friendliest, and most understanding people I've ever met. The thing that bugs me about religion, is that it allows otherwise completely rational people, to throw logic away because of environment they were born into. Leads to things like homophobia and trying to enforce some imaginary sky god's rules on others.

 

I agree completely.

 

There are some good parts to religion (love your nieghbor, be good, ect.) but the bad far outweighs this.

 

 

I don't think I could ever vote for someone that is openly very religious. Someone that believes the Bible is accurate history is not someone I want in office representing me. It is sad we still live in a time where candidates still have to play their religion up now and then the get votes from certain parts of America

[DieHardBrownsFan]

I see someone is censoring the posts again, LOL. This board is really starting to suck.

[VaporTrail]

dated a few of them

 

cringe

[calfoxwc]

I can assert that I want to be treated with certain degrees of respect, for example, if I fall in love with someone, I want to be able to marry them

************************************

You can, if you are a male, and you fall in love with a female.

 

Or, are you saying you'd like to take Woody and/or Heck out to a dinner and a movie?