Look Into The Future For A Thread Of Hope.

[slowburn]

Another year to cement the fact that Colt ain't got the right stuff as the Browns again

 

define the meaning of NFL talent disparity. 4-12 sounds 'bout right.

 

f jackie

[The Gipper]

What offensive playmaking talent do we have?

 

An average QB capable of being above average with all the right pieces.

A #1 WR who didn't play his last year as a college WR (sat out a year) and was a converted Running Back.

A RB coming off of a major knee injury playing because the starting RB was a headcase (no fault to Shurmur). The other guy Ogawhatever coming from the practice squad to the starting lineup.

Two young guards

and a RT playing the year hurt and he wasn't good to begin with.

 

I'd say this had the makings of a 1-15 type offense.

 

And what conflict did Shurmur create?

 

Its not what he created that I have a problem with, it is with what he didn't create: a competent offensive.

[The Gipper]

he's not the only one that thinks that way. if colts psyche is so fragile that he looks to fan support for confidence, then he needs a new job. if he's not mentally equipped to deal with off the field adversity/dissent, he certainly doesn't have what it takes to persevere on the field.

 

this isn't pop-warner....a weak minded individual like you describe has no place on the battlefield.

 

I don't think Colt's psyche was fragile at all. I think he dealt with adversity fine. I don't think he was weak minded at all.

I think he was obviously hurt. (or do you not believe that a concussion constitutes an 'injury"), and I think that the direction/coaching he was given was absolutely piss poor.

Never forget that.

[SDBrownsFan]

Its not what he created that I have a problem with, it is with what he didn't create: a competent offensive.

 

I think the talent issue is more of a concern- but I may change my mind if we draft some offensive playmakers and we still aren't going anywhere.

 

You can't win with the offense that was assembled last year. I don't care who is coaching. At least he shuffled the deck with WRs gave Little a chance to develope. He had no choice at RB because of injuries and he was teaching a Qb with limitations a brand new offense.

[b86b]

Don't think it matters who they draft since Shurmur and his terrible offense/play calling are still here.. Is this FO really that arrogant to draft Tannehill and say to the fans hey we are content with a project QB and another possible losing season, since he most likely will not help this team at all in '12.. I just don't see how they can draft Tanny when they have to show improvement next year!!

[roach]

Hey Brownies, let's play a little game here. I say that the Browns are gonna stay at the 4 spot and take a playmaker there. We have Trent Richardson. We have Justin Blackmon. We have Morris Claiborn and Ryan Tannihill. This is our upcoming opponents:

 

Week 1 Sunday 9/9/2012 Bengals @ Browns CBS 1:00 PM

Week 2 Sunday 9/16/2012 Browns @ Giants CBS 1:00 PM

Week 3 Sunday 9/23/2012 Browns @ Cowboys CBS 4:15 PM

Week 4 Thursday 9/27/2012 Ravens @ Browns NFLN 8:20 PM

Week 5 Sunday 10/7/2012 Browns @ Broncos CBS 4:15 PM

Week 6 Sunday 10/14/2012 Chargers @ Browns CBS 1:00 PM

Week 7 Sunday 10/21/2012 Redskins @ Browns FOX 1:00 PM

Week 8 Sunday 10/28/2012 Browns @ Steelers CBS 1:00 PM

Week 9 Monday 11/5/2012 Eagles @ Browns ESPN 8:30 PM

Week 10 BYE

Week 11 Sunday 11/18/2012 Bills @ Browns CBS 1:00 PM

Week 12 Sunday 11/25/2012 Steelers @ Browns CBS 1:00 PM

Week 13 Sunday 12/2/2012 Browns @ Bengals CBS 1:00 PM

Week 14 Sunday 12/9/2012 Browns @ Raiders CBS 4:15 PM

Week 15 Sunday 12/16/2012 Browns @ Colts CBS 1:00 PM

Week 16 Sunday 12/23/2012 Chiefs @ Browns CBS 1:00 PM

Week 17 Sunday 12/30/2012 Browns @ Ravens CBS 1:00 PM

 

Predict what our record would be if we took each player. I'll start...

 

Browns with Richardson: 11-5

 

Browns with Blackmon: 8-8

 

Browns with Claiborn: 7-9

 

Browns with Tannihill: 5-11

 

What's your call?

 

i don't see us winning more than 11 games regardless of who that first pick is. (But if it is Tannehill, i'm dropping my season tickets.)

[hoorta]

You forgot to mention the lockout, which delayed the team being able to put in the work to get acclimated to the new systems that would be put in last year. A new offense, A new defense, a rookie HC with no OC. A new DC. New Special Teams coach... I expect THIS team- THIS year, to be leaps and bounds beyond what went on last year. I expected the worse and hoped for the best as I usually do but I didn't think that we'd be that bad on offense. Now I expect at least, AT LEAST 7-8 wins THIS YEAR... AT LEAST. I'm hoping however, for Trent Richardson and 11 wins...

 

The lockout didn't hurt San Francisco much did it? Sure, better talent.

 

I see what I see- and too many holes to field a playoff team- yet. You're also totally discounting the possibility of an injury bug hitting the Browns hard (it didn't last year). That happens, and Walter's Football 2013 Mock Draft prediction may well come to pass and Goodell announces, "With the first pick in the 2013 NFL draft the Cleveland Browns select Matt Barkley, quarterback USC."

[choco]

I don't think Colt's psyche was fragile at all. I think he dealt with adversity fine. I don't think he was weak minded at all.

I think he was obviously hurt. (or do you not believe that a concussion constitutes an 'injury"), and I think that the direction/coaching he was given was absolutely piss poor.

Never forget that.

context gipper...

 

all those questions started with "if"....

[Harry Buffalo]

I completely agree with you Gipper. Coaching was/is our biggest weakness. I know we don't have loads of talent on this team but we do have some, enough for a decent coach to get us a respectable record. We went from 5-11 to 4-12 with the addition of legit talent from the 2011 draft. Sure the lock out might have affected us negatively but every team had to deal with the lock out. Look what the Bengals did with a 2nd round rookie QB.

 

I know our WR's didn't have a great year (did you expect them to?) but our offense was handcuffed by Shumur last year with an extremely conservative, predictable gameplan. Do you guys not remember other coaching staffs and those with actual football knowledge being able to predict the exact play we were going to run based on down and formation? Do you remember Colt not being able to call audibles at the line? Those aren't personal problems, those are coaching problems.

 

I hate using references to war in regards to sports but this one fits too perfectly for the point I'm trying to get across. When facing a superior force (numbers, equipment, ect.) you must rely on tactics in order to stand a chance. Many of the teams we faced last year had superior talent to our own, meaning we had no other choice but to rely on tactics. Instead of attempting to alter our strategy to give ourselves a chance (aka tactics) we stuck with a failing strategy which our opponents were easily able to decipher. That's not the player's fault, its not the front office's fault, it is the coach's fault. We'll never be able to improve if we stick with the same strategy that we used last year. Shumur better be working his ass off this offseason.

 

Standard cover for shitty talent. The same excuse that always gets a coach shipped out too early. I don't know if Shurmer is the guy but if he isn't here for at least 4 years then the FO has failed more for making another coaching change than they have for making a bad hire. We can't keep doing 2 years and done.

[SDBrownsFan]

Standard cover for shitty talent. The same excuse that always gets a coach shipped out too early. I don't know if Shurmer is the guy but if he isn't here for at least 4 years then the FO has failed more for making another coaching change than they have for making a bad hire. We can't keep doing 2 years and done.

 

Exactly. New Head Coach, new assistants, new players "their guys", new system, different philosophies.

 

We have people here that think too highly of our offensive roster. Its garbage- and it will likely be below average next season. You can compete without talent but you can't win on a consistent basis without it.

[The Gipper]

I think the talent issue is more of a concern- but I may change my mind if we draft some offensive playmakers and we still aren't going anywhere.

 

You can't win with the offense that was assembled last year. I don't care who is coaching. At least he shuffled the deck with WRs gave Little a chance to develope. He had no choice at RB because of injuries and he was teaching a Qb with limitations a brand new offense.

 

Disagree. The primary problem with the offense was the coaching. I think the QB's limitations were the problem of coaching.

Yes, injuries and youth were problems....problems exasperated by poor coaching.

[The Gipper]

Standard cover for shitty talent. The same excuse that always gets a coach shipped out too early. I don't know if Shurmer is the guy but if he isn't here for at least 4 years then the FO has failed more for making another coaching change than they have for making a bad hire. We can't keep doing 2 years and done.

 

I am not in favor of ditching Shurmur. But, if we were making a fantasy draft of the head coaches who do you think would be pegged in the top of the round.

Go ahead list the order you think the HCs of the NFL would be taken if a fantasy draft of them were held:

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

27

28

29

30

31

32

Rest assured P.o.S. would be down here somewhere (what is his middle name? Until that is know P.O.S. seems apt.)

[cribbs is the man]

Disagree. The primary problem with the offense was the coaching. I think the QB's limitations were the problem of coaching.

Yes, injuries and youth were problems....problems exasperated by poor coaching.

 

This was a first year head coach trying to implement a new offense with a very young 3rd round QB with a decimated RB position and a #1 rookie receiver who hadnt played in a year. Oh and btw there was an extremely shortened offseason. Not saying our coaching wasnt poor, but I do think those are all valid excuses to give them another shot. Esp since we've added an O coordinator. No one could come in and do well in that situation. More than anything we need consistency and a little patience.

[The Gipper]

This was a first year head coach trying to implement a new offense with a very young 3rd round QB with a decimated RB position and a #1 rookie receiver who hadnt played in a year. Oh and btw there was an extremely shortened offseason. Not saying our coaching wasnt poor, but I do think those are all valid excuses to give them another shot. Esp since we've added an O coordinator. No one could come in and do well in that situation. More than anything we need consistency and a little patience.

 

Yes, yes, I agree. I am not in favor of moving Shurmur. I hope he is a slow starter ala Chuck Noll, Bill Walsh, Bill Belichick and others.

That doesn't mean we cannot observe how bad he has been so far.

[cribbs is the man]

Yes, yes, I agree. I am not in favor of moving Shurmur. I hope he is a slow starter ala Chuck Noll, Bill Walsh, Bill Belichick and others.

That doesn't mean we cannot observe how bad he has been so far.

 

Ok, agreed. I just dont want to start over AGAIN... THAT is why our team sucks (and Mangini and others are idiots with the draft and depleting any kind of roster talent we had)

[Taco918]

Standard cover for shitty talent. The same excuse that always gets a coach shipped out too early. I don't know if Shurmer is the guy but if he isn't here for at least 4 years then the FO has failed more for making another coaching change than they have for making a bad hire. We can't keep doing 2 years and done.

 

So doing 2 years and out with players (those calling for Colt's job) is fine but with a coach it isn't acceptable? Frankly I see Colt having a higher upside then Shumur and I view Colt as a game manager at best. A coach is supposed to get the most out of the talent he has. Can you truly say, without a shadow of doubt, that Shumur did that last season? It's difficult to run a successful play when the defense knows exactly what you're attempting to run.

 

If Shumur was smart he would realize that his playcalling last year was horrendous, he is unable to balance the duties of being a head coach and playcaller simultaneously and bring in an offensive coordinator with a proven track record of successful calling plays in the NFL. Chilly doesn't have that track record and Shumur is still determined to call the plays. He's in over his head and refuses to acknowledge it. I'd much rather have a coach admit fault and do what is necessary to correct it then a coach who refuses to admit fault and bring in a figurehead to attempt to placate the masses. Chilly will have as much sway over the playcalling this year as Colt did last year, being none whatsoever.

[cribbs is the man]

So doing 2 years and out with players (those calling for Colt's job) is fine but with a coach it isn't acceptable? Frankly I see Colt having a higher upside then Shumur and I view Colt as a game manager at best. A coach is supposed to get the most out of the talent he has. Can you truly say, without a shadow of doubt, that Shumur did that last season? It's difficult to run a successful play when the defense knows exactly what you're attempting to run.

 

If Shumur was smart he would realize that his playcalling last year was horrendous, he is unable to balance the duties of being a head coach and playcaller simultaneously and bring in an offensive coordinator with a proven track record of successful calling plays in the NFL. Chilly doesn't have that track record and Shumur is still determined to call the plays. He's in over his head and refuses to acknowledge it. I'd much rather have a coach admit fault and do what is necessary to correct it then a coach who refuses to admit fault and bring in a figurehead to attempt to placate the masses. Chilly will have as much sway over the playcalling this year as Colt did last year, being none whatsoever.

 

Again, Shurmur was a first year coach and will have a lot of input from Childress on the playcalling in the planning and during the game. I agree, in terrible circumstances, that Shurmur did not thrive. But this was his FIRST YEAR as a head coach (with no offseason). Hopefully he'll get better. We really dont know what goes on behind the scenes with the playcalling and hiring of an O coordinator as well. Lets give him a shot. He didnt have a shot last year.

 

And I am in favor of bringing back Colt as the QB.

[miktoxic]

let's just hope that holmgren is done adding his buddies to the FO and the coaching staff. just because he considers himself a genius doesn't mean that applies to everyone else he's ever 'brushed up' against.

 

believe me i hate the guy's guts but am willing to overlook that if he can deliver on his promises. a big part of the what may or may not happen will be decided in exactly 2 weeks and a couple of hours. this may be H&H's biggest and most meaningful draft EVER!!!!!

 

don't fuck it up boys with some slick rick shuckin and jivin. just nail these picks. and NO. no tannehill.

[cribbs is the man]

let's just hope that holmgren is done adding his buddies to the FO and the coaching staff. just because he considers himself a genius doesn't mean that applies to everyone else he's ever 'brushed up' against.

 

believe me i hate the guy's guts but am willing to overlook that if he can deliver on his promises. a big part of the what may or may not happen will be decided in exactly 2 weeks and a couple of hours. this may be H&H's biggest and most meaningful draft EVER!!!!!

 

don't fuck it up boys with some slick rick shuckin and jivin. just nail these picks. and NO. no tannehill.

 

I think Holmgren leaves the drafting to Heckert (except for some instances like with Colt). I trust Heckert's judgment more than any one elses in our FO

[Taco918]

Again, Shurmur was a first year coach and will have a lot of input from Childress on the playcalling in the planning and during the game. I agree, in terrible circumstances, that Shurmur did not thrive. But this was his FIRST YEAR as a head coach (with no offseason). Hopefully he'll get better. We really dont know what goes on behind the scenes with the playcalling and hiring of an O coordinator as well. Lets give him a shot. He didnt have a shot last year.

 

And I am in favor of bringing back Colt as the QB.

 

He did have a shot last year. He was given the same shot as every other coach in the leauge. My biggest problem is that he never deserved to be given the head coaching job in the first place, and has so far proven he doesn't deserve the job. He was an offensive coordinator for 2 whole years with the Rams. His first year with the Rams they went 1-15. His "break-out" season was a 7-9 record with the number one overall pick in arguably the worst division in NFL history. Remember the Seahawks won that division with a losing record at 7-9. I lived in St Louis in 2010 and saw every game. It was the same extremely conservative offense that we saw last year. The only reason, I repeat the only reason the Rams won 7 games that year is because they got to play the 8 games against the pitiful NFC west and even then were only able to go .500.

 

That Rams team beat the 6-10 Redskins, the 7-9 Seahawks, the 9-7 Chargers, the 2-14 Panthers, the 4-12 Broncos, the 5-11, Cardinals, and the 6-10 49ers. They lost to the Cardinals, the 8-8 Raiders, the 6-10 Lions (by a score of 44-6,) the 10-6 Bucs, the 49ers, the 13-3 Falcons, the 11-5 Saints, the 10-6 Chiefs, and finally a loss to the Seahawks in week 17 for a chance to go to the playoffs. The most that Rams team scored was 36, broke 30 twice, scored in the 20's five times, scored in the teens 7 times, and were held to single digits twice. They only beat one team with a winning record in the Chargers and lost to 4 teams (Lions, Cardinals, 49ers, and Seahawks) with equal or lesser records then their own. As far as leauge rankings go the Rams were 26th in total offense, 26th in scoring, 21st in passing offense and 25th in rushing offense with a franchise QB, RB, and a break out year from Danny Amendola (a poor man's Wes Welker.) That's more talent then the Browns have yet he still couldn't put up even average offensive stats.

 

He clearly did not get the head coaching job based on merit. He was most successful as the QB coach for the Eagles from 02-08. Now let me ask you do you think he was calling the plays at that time under Andy Reid? No he wasn't. He was hired due to his uncle, Fitz, who was the defensive coordinator under Holmgren at Seattle. It was flat out a shitty hire. If we didn't hire him last year and he stayed with the Rams I guarantee he would've lost his job this offseason with Spagnuolo and would more then likely return to being a QB coach if he was lucky.

 

Continuity is only good if you have a capable coach at the helm. We don't. We have a unproven offensive coordinator given a head coaching job who's only been able to prove that he can mastermind a below average offense. If he was a defensive minded coach it would be somewhat understandable but Shumur is not. If our offense plays like they did last year (which is more likely then not) Shumur and Holmgren have to go. Shumur for impeding the development of the young talent we have and will get in the upcoming draft and Holmgren for hiring his buddy's nephew to a job he was ill prepared and qualified for.

[miktoxic]

If our offense plays like they did last year (which is more likely then not) Shumur and Holmgren have to go. Shumur for impeding the development of the young talent we have and will get in the upcoming draft and Holmgren for hiring his buddy's nephew to a job he was ill prepared and qualified for.

mangini never should have been fire, period. but that's an argument for another thread.

 

my fear with holmgren and shurmur getting fired is that they'll drag the good people on staff down the drain with them i.e. heckertt, jauron and then....hmmm..........?????

[USFBrown]

i don't see us winning more than 11 games regardless of who that first pick is. (But if it is Tannehill, i'm dropping my season tickets.)

I don't see us winning for than 5 games no matter who we draft. What would make anyone think 11 games is a reasonable number? The Browns aren't the only team drafting players. Everyone else will add talent too and our gap is still far too big to make a run at the playoffs. Especially in the AFC North.

[1 more season]

mangini never should have been fire....

 

This comment always makes me laugh.

[Harry Buffalo]

I am not in favor of ditching Shurmur. But, if we were making a fantasy draft of the head coaches who do you think would be pegged in the top of the round.

Go ahead list the order you think the HCs of the NFL would be taken if a fantasy draft of them were held:

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

26

27

28

29

30

31

32

Rest assured P.o.S. would be down here somewhere (what is his middle name? Until that is know P.O.S. seems apt.)

 

Ummmmm about 12 different coaches that were actually given time to show they were good coaches. Take all the coaches in the NFL and based off their first season make a list. Harbaughs at the top but some of the best coaches in the league had really shit first and even second season.

[miktoxic]

This comment always makes me laugh.

 

then you laugh in the face of logic sir.

[Mark O]

I heard Brian Billick on the radio today saying the same thing regarding Tannehill...he thinks he's a huge reach in the top 10 of the first round. This is the 2nd time I've heard this from a "expert" which is enough for me to be convinced that I really really hope that we don't pick him at #4.

[hoorta]

Continuity is only good if you have a capable coach at the helm. We don't. We have a unproven offensive coordinator given a head coaching job who's only been able to prove that he can mastermind a below average offense. If he was a defensive minded coach it would be somewhat understandable but Shumur is not. If our offense plays like they did last year (which is more likely then not) Shumur and Holmgren have to go. Shumur for impeding the development of the young talent we have and will get in the upcoming draft and Holmgren for hiring his buddy's nephew to a job he was ill prepared and qualified for.

 

^+1 Shurmur's playcaling last year made Belichick's "Metcalf up the Middle" look like genius.

 

Yes, some "great" coaches had lousy first years, but I don't think any of them looked as clueless and lost as Shurmur did.

[roach]

I don't see us winning for than 5 games no matter who we draft. What would make anyone think 11 games is a reasonable number? The Browns aren't the only team drafting players. Everyone else will add talent too and our gap is still far too big to make a run at the playoffs. Especially in the AFC North.

 

i stand by my prediction. i've nailed it every year since 1999.

[roach]

He did have a shot last year. He was given the same shot as every other coach in the leauge. My biggest problem is that he never deserved to be given the head coaching job in the first place, and has so far proven he doesn't deserve the job. He was an offensive coordinator for 2 whole years with the Rams. His first year with the Rams they went 1-15. His "break-out" season was a 7-9 record with the number one overall pick in arguably the worst division in NFL history. Remember the Seahawks won that division with a losing record at 7-9. I lived in St Louis in 2010 and saw every game. It was the same extremely conservative offense that we saw last year. The only reason, I repeat the only reason the Rams won 7 games that year is because they got to play the 8 games against the pitiful NFC west and even then were only able to go .500.

 

That Rams team beat the 6-10 Redskins, the 7-9 Seahawks, the 9-7 Chargers, the 2-14 Panthers, the 4-12 Broncos, the 5-11, Cardinals, and the 6-10 49ers. They lost to the Cardinals, the 8-8 Raiders, the 6-10 Lions (by a score of 44-6,) the 10-6 Bucs, the 49ers, the 13-3 Falcons, the 11-5 Saints, the 10-6 Chiefs, and finally a loss to the Seahawks in week 17 for a chance to go to the playoffs. The most that Rams team scored was 36, broke 30 twice, scored in the 20's five times, scored in the teens 7 times, and were held to single digits twice. They only beat one team with a winning record in the Chargers and lost to 4 teams (Lions, Cardinals, 49ers, and Seahawks) with equal or lesser records then their own. As far as leauge rankings go the Rams were 26th in total offense, 26th in scoring, 21st in passing offense and 25th in rushing offense with a franchise QB, RB, and a break out year from Danny Amendola (a poor man's Wes Welker.) That's more talent then the Browns have yet he still couldn't put up even average offensive stats.

 

He clearly did not get the head coaching job based on merit. He was most successful as the QB coach for the Eagles from 02-08. Now let me ask you do you think he was calling the plays at that time under Andy Reid? No he wasn't. He was hired due to his uncle, Fitz, who was the defensive coordinator under Holmgren at Seattle. It was flat out a shitty hire. If we didn't hire him last year and he stayed with the Rams I guarantee he would've lost his job this offseason with Spagnuolo and would more then likely return to being a QB coach if he was lucky.

 

Continuity is only good if you have a capable coach at the helm. We don't. We have a unproven offensive coordinator given a head coaching job who's only been able to prove that he can mastermind a below average offense. If he was a defensive minded coach it would be somewhat understandable but Shumur is not. If our offense plays like they did last year (which is more likely then not) Shumur and Holmgren have to go. Shumur for impeding the development of the young talent we have and will get in the upcoming draft and Holmgren for hiring his buddy's nephew to a job he was ill prepared and qualified for.

 

Bravo! i don't think anyone can sum it up better than that.

[Tour2ma]

mangini never should have been fire, period. but that's an argument for another thread.

Holler if you need a wingman...

 

 

^+1Yes, some "great" coaches had lousy first years, but I don't think any of them looked as clueless and lost as Shurmur did.

Agree... and it's not just the X's and O's... it's the leadership or rather the lack of it...

 

 

Excellent, excellent post. I have made this same exact point before and nobody wants to hear it. Also remember, we still have to prove that we can draft better than the Ravens, Steelers and Bengals. And that's who we need to make up ground on.

 

I think Colt is the weakest link, even with some weaponse, 4 -6 wins is a reasonable expectation.

While I won't hang it on Colt, as I still have hope that the lad can be an effective NFL QB, I agree with the bottom line... namely the W total is likely headed for the 4-6 range... again...

 

As for not wanting to hear you... when you choose to make rational posts I think we all hear you. We may still disagree, but we hear you. On the other hand when you go off on one of your rants... not so much...