Has Paul Kruger been a disappointment?

[HurricanE]

I liked the pickup initially and I like the guy, but I haven't really seen the productivity out of him I thought we were going to get.

 

Thoughts?

[BaconHound]

For his contract he has been a disappointment but I'm not calling bust yet. One of few things I agree with NFL coaches on is the simple fact that each player on each side of the ball is fairly reliant on their teammates for success.

[HurricanE]

From watching him, he is always around where the ball is but just not quite getting tackles or sacks. He just a little lazy because he got a fat contract? Who knows..

[miktoxic]

yes.

[bbedward]

yes.

+1, for the money.

[Hunt Daddy]

For the money, yes. While I see the guy collapsing the pocket all the time, the sacks just aren't there for him.

[Clevfan4life]

I know a little bit about pass rushing since I used to play on the line. Obviously I never played near this guys level but I do notice technique, especially when I go to the games and get a good look at how our trench guys try to beat their man. From the very beginning of the season I wasn't seeing stellar stuff from kruger. I didn't really notice him when he played in Blt so I don't know what he was doing differently there if at all. But here his pass rush is anemic. He's an "awesome" bull rusher. The first couple games of the season he had all kinds of tackles pushed back into the qb. Problem was that the qb's were able to get rid of the ball way too quick. Ok, so you can say he sets the timer low...so the ability of the qb's to make completions in 2-3 seconds can't really be put on the pass rush..that's on our secondary and LB'ers. What I saw though was that when he tried to anything else other than bullrushing, he was "terrible". His edge rush was so bad at the beginning of the season that the tackles could just basically take that play off and lean on him right out off the edge. It didn't require alot of effort. By about the 4th or 5th game the O line coaches were on to Kruger and the tackles just stuck their butts out behind em and that stifled his bullrush. He absolutely cannot keep tackles honest on that now. They sit on the bullrush and if he goes outside it's with so little leverage that they're not worried about it. When Kruger does get around the edge now he went out too wide. He doesn't dig in "whatsoever". When I talk about digging in, I'm talking about what Matthews does out in GB. He's one of the best in the NFL at carving off the edge. He goes horizontal when he's coming around the corner, this reduces the angle to the qb. And Matthews is faster but smaller than Kruger so he should be the one taking the wider arcs to the QB. Not the 6'5 275lb monster. Kruger should be way better at that which would make his bullrush that much better. Matthews is one of the best bullrushing OLB'ers in the league because tackles have to respect his outside rush. I want Kruger to work out here but so far, I dunno. He's cleaned up his run support for sure, it will be interesting to see where he's rated at the end of the year when those rankings come out. I don't think I ever saw him get sealed inside the whole season but I could be wrong.

 

In the end though we didn't pay 8m for a guy just to stop the run. He needs to be "at least" a 10 sack guy for that money. Honestly he should be getting 15 sacks easy with his physical abilities. It is possible though that if our secondary gets better next year, which it should....that the qb's will have to hold the ball a split second longer and that allows our outside guys to get home. It would be interesting to compare tape with say, the KC pass rush. If the qb's take the same amount of time on average to get rid of the ball against KC as they do with Cleveland, than there really is no excuse for the fact that the 240lb undersized rookie is leading the LB'ers in sacks. When we played KC, their two outside guys combined had 20 sacks and our whole defense had 19. That was just ludicrous. I know that Hali and Houston have cooled off since then a bit....but still.

[bbedward]

I know a little bit about pass rushing since I used to play on the line. Obviously I never played near this guys level but I do notice technique, especially when I go to the games and get a good look at how our trench guys try to beat their man. From the very beginning of the season I wasn't seeing stellar stuff from kruger. I didn't really notice him when he played in Blt so I don't know what he was doing differently there if at all. But here his pass rush is anemic. He's an "awesome" bull rusher. The first couple games of the season he had all kinds of tackles pushed back into the qb. Problem was that the qb's were able to get rid of the ball way too quick. Ok, so you can say he sets the timer low...so the ability of the qb's to make completions in 2-3 seconds can't really be put on the pass rush..that's on our secondary and LB'ers. What I saw though was that when he tried to anything else other than bullrushing, he was "terrible". His edge rush was so bad at the beginning of the season that the tackles could just basically take that play off and lean on him right out off the edge. It didn't require alot of effort. By about the 4th or 5th game the O line coaches were on to Kruger and the tackles just stuck their butts out behind em and that stifled his bullrush. He absolutely cannot keep tackles honest on that now. They sit on the bullrush and if he goes outside it's with so little leverage that they're not worried about it. When Kruger does get around the edge now he went out too wide. He doesn't dig in "whatsoever". When I talk about digging in, I'm talking about what Matthews does out in GB. He's one of the best in the NFL at carving off the edge. He goes horizontal when he's coming around the corner, this reduces the angle to the qb. And Matthews is faster but smaller than Kruger so he should be the one taking the wider arcs to the QB. Not the 6'5 275lb monster. Kruger should be way better at that which would make his bullrush that much better. Matthews is one of the best bullrushing OLB'ers in the league because tackles have to respect his outside rush. I want Kruger to work out here but so far, I dunno. He's cleaned up his run support for sure, it will be interesting to see where he's rated at the end of the year when those rankings come out. I don't think I ever saw him get sealed inside the whole season but I could be wrong.

 

In the end though we didn't pay 8m for a guy just to stop the run. He needs to be "at least" a 10 sack guy for that money. Honestly he should be getting 15 sacks easy with his physical abilities. It is possible though that if our secondary gets better next year, which it should....that the qb's will have to hold the ball a split second longer and that allows our outside guys to get home. It would be interesting to compare tape with say, the KC pass rush. If the qb's take the same amount of time on average to get rid of the ball against KC as they do with Cleveland, than there really is no excuse for the fact that the 240lb undersized rookie is leading the LB'ers in sacks. When we played KC, their two outside guys combined had 20 sacks and our whole defense had 19. That was just ludicrous. I know that Hali and Houston have cooled off since then a bit....but still.

Kruger played a fraction of the snaps there that he does here.

[next2nothing]

If we just look at sack numbers, than yes, he has been a bit of a disappointment.

 

However, this is how I look at it...

 

He was a big name FA. I think almost anyone who had snagged him would have overpaid, it's what happens. But he's been a big reason on why our run stoppage has been so great all year.

 

I've read that Horton's system is fairly complicated so it may be a problem of Kruger, and the whole defense for that matter, to fully have it all sink in. Though, that should have happened by now.

[LBC mike]

I think it might be with Ray system.... ? I would say that he is getting picked in the blocking scheme by the offense but that is not the case as the other guys would be getting pressure on the QB.

[thenew23]

He has only been a disappointment based on what your expectationsof him are.

 

What I've seen is a guy who consistently disrupts the pocket, and makes QBs have to get the ball out quicker. If you're looking for sack numbers... they won't be there b/c he is our only threat, outside of our front 3, to get to the QB. Sheard has played very pedestrian all season. I like him as a run-stopper and he plays the position well, but he does not get pressure from a 2-point stance. If we can stop the run with Mingo starting opposite Kruger, you'll see both of them get more sacks. Not to mention, DQJ is not a great pass-rusher from the ILB position, and Robertson has been very average this year as well. As they stand now, our entire front 7 is good, but they are not spectacular... So as I said, if Mingo can start full-time next year and we can get an ILB who is solid in coverage and has speed/strength to provide pressure, Kruger will continue to be a major piece of the puzzle and may get more sacks...

[Westside Steve]

That's the problem with free agency. If you want one you usually have to over pay. I would assume that lots of them haven't felt all that appreciated by the teams they're currently with so...

If, on the other hand, we had no idea how much any of the players are paid we'd think he was a damn good acquisition.

WSS

[Clevfan4life]

I think it might be with Ray system.... ? I would say that he is getting picked in the blocking scheme by the offense but that is not the case as the other guys would be getting pressure on the QB.

 

no he hasn't, he's getting handled by the right tackles one on one. I've been watching for that and frankly none of our OLB'ers get chipped, it hasn't been necessary.

[Clevfan4life]

He has only been a disappointment based on what your expectationsof him are.

 

What I've seen is a guy who consistently disrupts the pocket, and makes QBs have to get the ball out quicker. If you're looking for sack numbers... they won't be there b/c he is our only threat, outside of our front 3, to get to the QB. Sheard has played very pedestrian all season. I like him as a run-stopper and he plays the position well, but he does not get pressure from a 2-point stance. If we can stop the run with Mingo starting opposite Kruger, you'll see both of them get more sacks. Not to mention, DQJ is not a great pass-rusher from the ILB position, and Robertson has been very average this year as well. As they stand now, our entire front 7 is good, but they are not spectacular... So as I said, if Mingo can start full-time next year and we can get an ILB who is solid in coverage and has speed/strength to provide pressure, Kruger will continue to be a major piece of the puzzle and may get more sacks...

 

Kruger and Sheard have the same amount of sacks so I don't know where you think Kruger has been far and away a better pass rusher. Just eyeballing the two of them Sheard absolutely has the better pass rushing skillset to beat tackles. He can bullrush pretty well, not quite as good as kruger, but all his outside and inside moves are quite obviously better than Krugers. Sheard is a polished pass rusher, you can see it in the hands and in his leverage. SImply put both would have more sacks if we could cover people past 2.5 seconds. But neither has required the offenses to use a RB to chip them.

[Tour2ma]

I have stated before that I think veteran presence is a chunk of Kruger's value... much like Scott Fujita brought to our prior 3-4.

 

Kruger played a fraction of the snaps there that he does here.

 

I think Krug also benefited from significant inside pressure generated by the BLT blitz and Mr Ngata. Big Phil has his pass rush moments, but not that many.

 

He has only been a disappointment based on what your expectationsof him are.

 

What I've seen is a guy who consistently disrupts the pocket, and makes QBs have to get the ball out quicker.

 

Axiomatic... yet I agree.

[Clevfan4life]

I have stated before that I think veteran presence is a chunk of Kruger's value... much like Scott Fujita brought to our prior 3-4.

 

 

.

 

The games I've been to I sit about 6 rows up right behind the bench, if there's one guy who seems to be the one rallying the defense around it's Phil. I don't think Kruger has much pull with the guys, at least from what I see on the sidelines. The one guy who's usually talking to Kruger is Horton.

[Richiswhere]

36 total tackles ranks 385th

4.5 sacks ranks 65th

-13 sack yards ranks 183rd

6 QB Hurries ranks 60th

 

Not to bad for $13 million

 

Jabaal Sheard leads the team in QB hurries with 10 despite missing 3 games and generally sharing his spot with Mingo. Hell even Mingo has more QB hurries than Kruger.

Lucky for Kruger he got to face a crap RT in Svitek last week or his stats would be absolute crap. IMO he hasn't been a disappointment though because he wasn't that good to begin with. Like I said when we signed him he had half of a good season in four years and a good part of it was against crap teams with rookies and nobodies at RT.

[Clevfan4life]

36 total tackles ranks 385th

4.5 sacks ranks 65th

-13 sack yards ranks 183rd

6 QB Hurries ranks 60th

 

Not to bad for $13 million

 

Jabaal Sheard leads the team in QB hurries with 10 despite missing 3 games and generally sharing his spot with Mingo. Hell even Mingo has more QB hurries than Kruger.

Lucky for Kruger he got to face a crap RT in Svitek last week or his stats would be absolute crap. IMO he hasn't been a disappointment though because he wasn't that good to begin with. Like I said when we signed him he had half of a good season in four years and a good part of it was against crap teams with rookies and nobodies at RT.

oh that's right I forgot he was up against the 2nd stringer for NE. I was thinking to myself watching the game that we seem to be getting to Brady pretty good, especially on that right side which is where Kruger's usually coming from. Wow, so we're paying 8m a year for a guy who gets home pretty good against the 2nd string. Not a bad investment eh?

[Tim Couch Pulls Out]

Kruger does things that are incalcuable but very helpful. He pushes the pocket with his bull rush. He's not as bad in pass coverage as people make him out to be, but he still isn't good. He's a lesser tier starter, in that regard. He's around every play, he's just not quite making them.

 

I said from the beginning he wouldn't be the exceptional pass rusher we where led to believe. If he was, Ozzie wouldn't have let him go.

 

We have a rotational crew, each with their own strengths and weaknesses. They're all talented enough to play for most teams in the league, though.

[PoeticG]

The Browns need to find a way to field these guys at the same time:

 

Rubin

Taylor

Clowney

Sheard

Jackson

Mingo

Kruger

 

That is an all-star cast that WILL destroy an offense. Add in Ward, Haden, Skrine, and a stellar FS and we're Golden on Defense.

[Tim Couch Pulls Out]

The Browns need to find a way to field these guys at the same time:

 

Rubin

Taylor

Clowney

Sheard

Jackson

M

Kruger

 

That is an all-star cast that WILL destroy an offense. Add in Ward, Haden, Skrine, and a stellar FS and we're Golden on Defense.

 

In Madden (yes, I know...it's not real), I traded Brandon Weeden and a 2015 third round pick for Foles and Bryce Brown. I used our first first round pick on Jadeveon Clowney and our second first rounder on Haha Clinton-Dix. I used our second round pick on Ryan Shazier. I used the first third round pick on Blake Bortles (who certainly won't be available there IRL) and the second on Loucheiz Purifoy, the large CB from Florida. I traded the fourth rounder for a 2015 third to recoup my loss from the Weeden trade.

 

I picked up Jeremy Maclin, Toby Gerhart, and Kevin Boothe in FA.

 

I resigned Ward and Mack.

 

The 2014 Browns looked like this:

 

QB- Foles, Hoyer

RB- Brown, Gerhart, Lewis

FB- Ogbannaya

TE- Cameron, Barnidge

WR- Gordon, Maclin, Little, Bess

LT- Thomas,

LG- Greco

C- Mack

RG- Booth

RT- Schwartz

 

RE- Rubin

LE- Bryant

DT- Taylor

ROLB- Clowney, Mingo

ILB- Jackson

ILB- Shazier

LOLB- Kruger, Sheard

CB- Haden

CB- Purifoy

FS- Clinton-Dix

SS- Ward

 

I made it to the AFC Championship and lost to the Broncos (poetic justice).

[Browns616]

Kruger seems so close to making those big plays he was known for in Balt. I believe with another year under Mingo's belt Kruger can go back to being more situational pass rusher and do what he did for the Ravens in their Superbowl run. keep in mind Kruger is playing opposite a rookie and a new player at the position Sheard. The Groves injury didn't help either, give it time and these guys will gel into more productive pass rushers

[Tour2ma]

In Madden (yes, I know...it's not real), I traded ...

 

Which Madden has Coach/ GM capabilities? Once upon a time I played "NFL Head Coach" which was fun, but seriously flawed.

[Tour2ma]

The games I've been to I sit about 6 rows up right behind the bench... The one guy who's usually talking to Kruger is Horton.

 

I think your observation on Horton/ Kruger supports my point. Every D has (or should have) a coach on the field. Seems like Kruger is Horton's.

[Tim Couch Pulls Out]

 

Which Madden has Coach/ GM capabilities? Once upon a time I played "NFL Head Coach" which was fun, but seriously flawed.

Madden 25 (the new one) has a connected franchise mode where you can be a player, coach or owner.

 

Owner is by far the best way to go. You can move your franchise, get new jerseys, build new stadiums or renovate the existing stadium, full roster control, full staff control, adjust merch, ticket and concession prices, and play the game if you want.

 

I took the Browns from 26th in value to top five in two seasons. Your success is heavily reliant on getting a franchise QB, however.

[Tour2ma]

Thank you... will look into it...

[Richiswhere]

I think your observation on Horton/ Kruger supports my point. Every D has (or should have) a coach on the field. Seems like Kruger is Horton's.

First off isn't Horton is the coaches box? So how in the hell would you know if hes talking to Kruger?

Second Kruger is about as much of a coach on the field for the defense as Weeden is for the offense. "The coach" on defense is Jackson and you and every Browns fan knows that.

Don't you think Ward and his agent are thinking to themselves wow they are paying this guy $40 million over 5 years for this production we about to get really paid.

Someone said that Kruger is close to making plays....you know why hes close because hes to damn slow to make them. The guy is 385th in the league in tackles 385th!!! there are only 32 teams in the NFL. That means on average there are 11 guys per team making more tackles than him and Kruger played every game.

[Clevfan4life]

. The guy is 385th in the league in tackles 385th!!! there are only 32 teams in the NFL. That means on average there are 11 guys per team making more tackles than him and Kruger played every game.

 

that's a sobering statistic. Got damn.

[Clevfan4life]

 

I think your observation on Horton/ Kruger supports my point. Every D has (or should have) a coach on the field. Seems like Kruger is Horton's.

 

The conversations looked like Horton, or whoever that d coach was...wasn't necessarily yelling at Kruger, but trying to make an emphatic point that he was doing something wrong. Kruger would be looking at the board he was being shown and shaking his head like "sorry coach". That was just my impression though, I could be wrong.

[Tim Couch Pulls Out]

First off isn't Horton is the coaches box? So how in the hell would you know if hes talking to Kruger?

Second Kruger is about as much of a coach on the field for the defense as Weeden is for the offense. "The coach" on defense is Jackson and you and every Browns fan knows that.

Don't you think Ward and his agent are thinking to themselves wow they are paying this guy $40 million over 5 years for this production we about to get really paid.

Someone said that Kruger is close to making plays....you know why hes close because hes to damn slow to make them. The guy is 385th in the league in tackles 385th!!! there are only 32 teams in the NFL. That means on average there are 11 guys per team making more tackles than him and Kruger played every game.

First of all, that's wrong.

 

He's 275th, per ESPN.

 

Tied with Lamarr Woodley, Clay Matthews, and Bruce Irvin.

 

By the way, I'm joking. I just counted combined tackles, you did solo tackles. But that shows that he's involved in about twice as many plays as he's getting credit for, he just isn't making the plays. For as much money as he's getting, he better make the fucking plays.