Has Paul Kruger been a disappointment?

[Clevfan4life]

we have a pass rushing problem overall. Both Kruger and Sheard were getting there if Cutler held the ball too long so they're not completely garbage. They just can't get close in real time.

[miktoxic]

we have a pass rushing problem overall. Both Kruger and Sheard were getting there if Cutler held the ball too long so they're not completely garbage. They just can't get close in real time.

so where does the problem lie? bad blitz packages by the DC? overall talent by the LBs? i mean last year in the 4-3 sheard was getting to the QBs a lot more than he is now.

 

man i hate bringing in new regimes with new systems after the players have played in a certain one since they became a member of the team.

 

can't you go with the 3-4 but based upon your players make adjustments to 'your' scheme to better suit the talent?

[Richiswhere]

First of all, that's wrong.

 

He's 275th, per ESPN.

 

Tied with Lamarr Woodley, Clay Matthews, and Bruce Irvin.

 

By the way, I'm joking. I just counted combined tackles, you did solo tackles. But that shows that he's involved in about twice as many plays as he's getting credit for, he just isn't making the plays. For as much money as he's getting, he better make the fucking plays.

Your right I was counting just solo tackles and didn't mean to do it that way I wanted total tackles. Still at 275th in total tackles (solo + assist) that still means that there are 8+ guy per NFL team making more tackles than Kruger. Now looking at todays box score Kruger will just be dropping even lower cause he had ZERO tackles.

[Tim Couch Pulls Out]

so where does the problem lie? bad blitz packages by the DC? overall talent by the LBs? i mean last year in the 4-3 sheard was getting to the QBs a lot more than he is now.

 

man i hate bringing in new regimes with new systems after the players have played in a certain one since they became a member of the team.

 

can't you go with the 3-4 but based upon your players make adjustments to 'your' scheme to better suit the talent?

That's what successful NFL coaches do, so of course we can't. You have a general overall philosophy and adapt to the talents of your squad.

 

People place too much emphasis on the scheme switch itself when they shouldn't. The system is learned by now. The X's and O's are taught. The fact that we switched from a 4-3 to a 3-4 isn't important.

 

The problem is more the spatial recognition of players. Sheard knows where he has to be, he knows his read, he just isn't fully comfortable being in space. He doesn't know that it's only three steps to the line, 1.75 seconds until contact, etc., etc. because those figures are different than when he was on the line. Those feelings are different. He can't subconsciously feel the guard washing down or the back releasing etc. because it's still new to him, stuff like that will come with time.

 

That's where we seem to be lacking. All of our OLB's are adjusting to new scenarios. Horton lives and dies by the production of his OLB's. He puts his corners on islands assuming the rush will get there. If the OLB's struggle, the defense struggles. If were a half second late getting to the QB, he gets the ball off. That half second is enough for the WR to get a step on the DB or the RB to release on a block and get in space.

 

It's beautiful, really, the inter connectedness of each individual thing.

[Zombo]

Yes .. he has been a fucking disappointment . Everyone not named "Gordon", "Cameron", "Taylor", "Ward" or "Haden" is a fucking disappointment.

 

And Billy Winn.

 

Except the winningest QB in CB History , Brian Hoyer.

 

I'm sure he will blow by week three next year in Holcombesque fashion.

 

Zombo

[Browns149]

Yes .. he has been a fucking disappointment . Everyone not named "Gordon", "Cameron", "Taylor", "Ward" or "Haden" is a fucking disappointment.

 

And Billy Winn.

 

Except the winningest QB in CB History , Brian Hoyer.

 

I'm sure he will blow by week three next year in Holcombesque fashion.

 

Zombo

Haden has also been a disappointment. (Although not to me).I never thought he was an elite cb to begin with.

 

People on here believe he's an elite cb. He is not. He's better then anyone we have, but that ain't saying much. He would be a very good #2 cb, on a good defense, but for anyone to think he's some All-Pro shutdown guy, he is not that.

[Zombo]

Haden has also been a disappointment. (Although not to me).I never thought he was an elite cb to begin with.

 

People on here believe he's an elite cb. He is not. He's better then anyone we have, but that ain't saying much. He would be a very good #2 cb, on a good defense, but for anyone to think he's some All-Pro shutdown guy, he is not that.

 

Disagree. He is one of the Top corners in the NFL.

 

Corners get beat all the time, Browns fans expect two Deion Sanders for some reason.

 

Zombo

[Tim Couch Pulls Out]

Haden has also been a disappointment. (Although not to me).I never thought he was an elite cb to begin with.

 

People on here believe he's an elite cb. He is not. He's better then anyone we have, but that ain't saying much. He would be a very good #2 cb, on a good defense, but for anyone to think he's some All-Pro shutdown guy, he is not that.

 

I mean, you can ask Mike Wallace, AJ Green, Megatron, and Torrey Smith how much of a shutdown receiver he is...

 

He's one of the best in the AFC. He's top ten in passes defended in the AFC this year, and he's having a down year. He's a solid #1 and you're crazy to think otherwise. He's not the end all be all best CB in the league, but he's a player you don't get rid of, much less disparage by moving him to #2.

[Browns149]

Buster skrine has the same amount of passes defended, does that make him as good as Haden?

 

That stat just proves that teams like throwing the ball at Joe Haden. Just like they like throwing it at Skrine

[Tour2ma]

First off isn't Horton is the coaches box? So how in the hell would you know if hes talking to Kruger?

Second Kruger is about as much of a coach on the field for the defense as Weeden is for the offense. "The coach" on defense is Jackson and you and every Browns fan knows that.

Don't you think Ward and his agent are thinking to themselves wow they are paying this guy $40 million over 5 years for this production we about to get really paid.

 

First: Did not say Kruger was talking to Horton... took that on faith from another poster.

 

Second: I don't know that DQ is the Coach on the field. I know he is the purported emotional leader of the D. I assume he is calls the adjustements because that is normally the job of an ILB. But I also know that DQ was not the "coach on the field" in our last 3-4, that was Fujita.

 

I assume Ward is focussing on football and his agent is focussed on what the top SS's in the league are making.

 

That's what successful NFL coaches do, so of course we can't. You have a general overall philosophy and adapt to the talents of your squad.

 

People place too much emphasis on the scheme switch itself when they shouldn't. The system is learned by now. The X's and O's are taught. The fact that we switched from a 4-3 to a 3-4 isn't important.

 

The problem is more the spatial recognition of players. Sheard knows where he has to be, he knows his read, he just isn't fully comfortable being in space. He doesn't know that it's only three steps to the line, 1.75 seconds until contact, etc., etc. because those figures are different than when he was on the line. Those feelings are different. He can't subconsciously feel the guard washing down or the back releasing etc. because it's still new to him, stuff like that will come with time.

 

That's where we seem to be lacking. All of our OLB's are adjusting to new scenarios. Horton lives and dies by the production of his OLB's. He puts his corners on islands assuming the rush will get there. If the OLB's struggle, the defense struggles. If were a half second late getting to the QB, he gets the ball off. That half second is enough for the WR to get a step on the DB or the RB to release on a block and get in space.

 

It's beautiful, really, the inter connectedness of each individual thing.

 

Respectfully disagree... possibly because you are now confusing me...

 

You say the swap from the 4-3 to the 3-4 is a non-factor because the 3-4 has been taught.

Then you essentially say it still feels unnatural to Sheard and all our OLB's are adjusting.

Then wax on about interconnectivity. Wax on Wax off?

 

What I know is:

Knowing is much different from reacting.

And reacting differently than the player to either side of you diminishes the D's performance.

 

What am I missing?

 

Buster skrine has the same amount of passes defended, does that make him as good as Haden?

 

That stat just proves that teams like throwing the ball at Joe Haden. Just like they like throwing it at Skrine

 

I'd guess Haden's percentage defended is a good bit higher than Buster's.

[Tim Couch Pulls Out]

Buster skrine has the same amount of passes defended, does that make him as good as Haden?

 

That stat just proves that teams like throwing the ball at Joe Haden. Just like they like throwing it at Skrine

Buster Skrine is also covering team's #2 receivers.

 

The fact that we've rarely been gouged by a #1 receiver should be the proof in the pudding. Or we could just go back to the time when we had no corners, if you liked that era so much.

[Tim Couch Pulls Out]

 

First: Did not say Kruger was talking to Horton... took that on faith from another poster.

 

Second: I don't know that DQ is the Coach on the field. I know he is the purported emotional leader of the D. I assume he is calls the adjustements because that is normally the job of an ILB. But I also know that DQ was not the "coach on the field" in our last 3-4, that was Fujita.

 

I assume Ward is focussing on football and his agent is focussed on what the top SS's in the league are making.

 

 

Respectfully disagree... possibly because you are now confusing me...

 

You say the swap from the 4-3 to the 3-4 is a non-factor because the 3-4 has been taught.

Then you essentially say it still feels unnatural to Sheard and all our OLB's are adjusting.

Then wax on about interconnectivity. Wax on Wax off?

 

What I know is:

Knowing is much different from reacting.

And reacting differently than the player to either side of you diminishes the D's performance.

 

What am I missing?

 

 

I'd guess Haden's percentage defended is a good bit higher than Buster's.

I was saying that people put too much emphasis on the X's and O's of the scheme switch, when it's not really that important. We could have switched from a 3-4 to a 4-3, kept Sheard on the line and picked up an experienced 3-4 OLB and our defense would have probably been much better (Groves was playing solidly before his injury, he was outperforming Kruger)

 

The reason everything is failing is because of the OLB's. It's because Sheard, Kruger and Mingo are a half second late. It's because they're getting used to the new position.

 

The switching of the scheme doesn't really affect our DL, or DB, or S because they're playing in those positions regardless of the scheme, they just have to learn a few small wrinkles.

 

But because our OLB's are struggling, the defense struggles, because that's how Horton's system is.

 

What you said at the end is what I was referring to. The OLB's know their assignments, they're just not reacting as they should. If they could get to the QB a half second faster, the defense looks much better.

[Clevfan4life]

so where does the problem lie? bad blitz packages by the DC? overall talent by the LBs? i mean last year in the 4-3 sheard was getting to the QBs a lot more than he is now.

 

man i hate bringing in new regimes with new systems after the players have played in a certain one since they became a member of the team.

 

can't you go with the 3-4 but based upon your players make adjustments to 'your' scheme to better suit the talent?

 

Sheard obviously is better with his hand in the ground. Yet it's always Kruger that puts em down on passing downs. I think Sheard only gets to put his hand down when he's playing with Mingo. I dunno...I"m starting to not like our system.

[Browns149]

Buster Skrine is also covering team's #2 receivers.

 

The fact that we've rarely been gouged by a #1 receiver should be the proof in the pudding. Or we could just go back to the time when we had no corners, if you liked that era so much.

No I don't want to go back to the era, but I do want a better #1 cb then Haden

[bonedawg]

No I don't want to go back to the era, but I do want a better #1 cb then Haden

 

 

Whats your deal with Haden? Did he bang your girlfriend or something? Of all of the problems we have on the defensive side of the ball, Haden is the least of them. I know 31 other teams that would take him in a heartbeat.

[thenew23]

No I don't want to go back to the era, but I do want a better #1 cb then Haden

And... how many of those exist?... in the world?...

 

We could create one, like when you're playing Madden, right?? Make him all 99s...

[Browns149]

And... how many of those exist?... in the world?...

 

We could create one, like when you're playing Madden, right?? Make him all 99s...

I'm not sure how many there are? But Joe Haden is NOT one of them

[Tim Couch Pulls Out]

No I don't want to go back to the era, but I do want a better #1 cb then Haden

It's good to want better, but you also have to balance that with the more pressing overall needs.

 

Upgrading from a solid #1 to an elite #1 would be more expensive and yield nearly the same results as just upgrading from a garbage #2 to a good #2.

 

Good corners demand some of the highest contracts in the league.

 

Having 25% of our cap space eaten up at two positions would be detrimental toward building a perennial championship caliber team.

[Browns149]

It's good to want better, but you also have to balance that with the more pressing overall needs.

 

Upgrading from a solid #1 to an elite #1 would be more expensive and yield nearly the same results as just upgrading from a garbage #2 to a good #2.

 

Good corners demand some of the highest contracts in the league.

 

Having 25% of our cap space eaten up at two positions would be detrimental toward building a perennial championship caliber team.

They have pressing needs for sure, but corner should be one of them. And it should be about 3rd on the list, behind QB and ILB. Everyone on the planet knows the Browns need a QB and the Lb's have been exposed all year for lack of speed and ability to cover ANYONE. And now everyone knows that our cb's are not as good as was thought.

[miktoxic]

here's my point about CBs in the league of today. if this is a passing league and you are facing teams with physical 6'5" WRs wouldn't it make sense to draft tall physical corners?

 

i love haden to death but watching a replay of him try to 'climb a ladder' to get to the ball that was intentionally thrown high to marshall yesterday made me cringe. overall the dbs and s played pretty fucking well (except for the worse play of the game on that basic hail mary where posey jumped 2 seconds early and the ball landed in the WRs in the endzone) and almost put up as many point as the offense..

[miktoxic]

They have pressing needs for sure, but corner should be one of them. And it should be about 3rd on the list, behind QB and ILB. Everyone on the planet knows the Browns need a QB and the Lb's have been exposed all year for lack of speed and ability to cover ANYONE. And now everyone knows that our cb's are not as good as was thought.

you are preaching to the choir brother. been screaming that for four years now.

[Browns149]

here's my point about CBs in the league of today. if this is a passing league and you are facing teams with physical 6'5" WRs wouldn't it make sense to draft tall physical corners?

 

i love haden to death but watching a replay of him try to 'climb a ladder' to get to the ball that was intentionally thrown high to marshall yesterday made me cringe. overall the dbs and s played pretty fucking well (except for the worse play of the game on that basic hail mary where posey jumped 2 seconds early and the ball landed in the WRs in the endzone) and almost put up as many point as the offense..

I'm not saying Haden is awful and I want him gone, I have never said that, All I'm saying is there needs to be a better option, someone bigger, stronger and taller. A CB that can jam wr's and re-route them. Disrupt the timing of plays, He does not do that.

[Tim Couch Pulls Out]

I'm not saying Haden is awful and I want him gone, I have never said that, All I'm saying is there needs to be a better option, someone bigger, stronger and taller. A CB that can jam wr's and re-route them. Disrupt the timing of plays, He does not do that.

 

I've been very high on the "tall, physical corners" as of late. It makes sense, as receivers are getting taller by the day.

 

If we could take a tall, physical, pressing corner with solid speed in rounds 2-3, say Louchiez Purifoy, I'd be all for slowly phasing Haden out of #1 and into a #2 role. But Haden has played very well in his career at #1. He rarely gives up a big game. His size and speed is an issue on paper, but he normally makes the play.

[thenew23]

I'm not saying Haden is awful and I want him gone, I have never said that, All I'm saying is there needs to be a better option, someone bigger, stronger and taller. A CB that can jam wr's and re-route them. Disrupt the timing of plays, He does not do that.

Insane... Look who Haden has covered this year, mostly man coverage. Sure, he has given up 2 ugly TDs (Shorts & Brown) and has had 1 bad game (Chicago, who has 2 of the top 10 WRs), but he has completely shut down Wallace, Jennings, AJ Green (twice), S.Johnson, Megatron, and Bowe. We got beat by T.Smith, Nelson, and J.Edelman when they ran crossing routes mostly getting them away from Haden...

 

He has been exposed against taller WRs, especially in the red zone. But, honestly he forces the opposing QBs to make damn-near-perfect throws to beat him... There is no better #1 corner that we will find any time soon... Getting a taller and disruptive #2 would be helpful, especially as we saw our little guys get exposed against those giants that Chicago has...

[Tim Couch Pulls Out]

http://factoryofsadness.sportsblog.com/post/228966/paul_kruger_the_man_who.html

 

Go ahead. Hate on it.

[slowburn]

nice analysis

 

 

I know a little bit about pass rushing since I used to play on the line. Obviously I never played near this guys level but I do notice technique, especially when I go to the games and get a good look at how our trench guys try to beat their man. From the very beginning of the season I wasn't seeing stellar stuff from kruger. I didn't really notice him when he played in Blt so I don't know what he was doing differently there if at all. But here his pass rush is anemic. He's an "awesome" bull rusher. The first couple games of the season he had all kinds of tackles pushed back into the qb. Problem was that the qb's were able to get rid of the ball way too quick. Ok, so you can say he sets the timer low...so the ability of the qb's to make completions in 2-3 seconds can't really be put on the pass rush..that's on our secondary and LB'ers. What I saw though was that when he tried to anything else other than bullrushing, he was "terrible". His edge rush was so bad at the beginning of the season that the tackles could just basically take that play off and lean on him right out off the edge. It didn't require alot of effort. By about the 4th or 5th game the O line coaches were on to Kruger and the tackles just stuck their butts out behind em and that stifled his bullrush. He absolutely cannot keep tackles honest on that now. They sit on the bullrush and if he goes outside it's with so little leverage that they're not worried about it. When Kruger does get around the edge now he went out too wide. He doesn't dig in "whatsoever". When I talk about digging in, I'm talking about what Matthews does out in GB. He's one of the best in the NFL at carving off the edge. He goes horizontal when he's coming around the corner, this reduces the angle to the qb. And Matthews is faster but smaller than Kruger so he should be the one taking the wider arcs to the QB. Not the 6'5 275lb monster. Kruger should be way better at that which would make his bullrush that much better. Matthews is one of the best bullrushing OLB'ers in the league because tackles have to respect his outside rush. I want Kruger to work out here but so far, I dunno. He's cleaned up his run support for sure, it will be interesting to see where he's rated at the end of the year when those rankings come out. I don't think I ever saw him get sealed inside the whole season but I could be wrong.

 

In the end though we didn't pay 8m for a guy just to stop the run. He needs to be "at least" a 10 sack guy for that money. Honestly he should be getting 15 sacks easy with his physical abilities. It is possible though that if our secondary gets better next year, which it should....that the qb's will have to hold the ball a split second longer and that allows our outside guys to get home. It would be interesting to compare tape with say, the KC pass rush. If the qb's take the same amount of time on average to get rid of the ball against KC as they do with Cleveland, than there really is no excuse for the fact that the 240lb undersized rookie is leading the LB'ers in sacks. When we played KC, their two outside guys combined had 20 sacks and our whole defense had 19. That was just ludicrous. I know that Hali and Houston have cooled off since then a bit....but still.

 

 

 

 

 

[slowburn]

Haden prowess on the field is Pro Bowl caliber, IMO. But the downside is opponents forcing "second tier" CB's, i.e McFadden and Skrine, to make plays which has exposed a significant weakness in Browns secondary when they fall short as seen recently in New England and Sunday in Cleveland when Jeffrey made the "circus" TD catch. The interference call in the New England end zone was chickenshit. Boyce, however, had a couple of steps on McFadden as evidenced when Mcfad puckered and horsecollared Boyce at the seven yard line. Common replays don't show that part and refs totally whiffed. Brady/Bellichick are masters at identifying and exposing weak links.

 

I agree with you MIK on the idea that bigger cornerbacks are going to be needed to counter the new 6'3 to 6'5 mega receivers. For example, check out Alshon Jeffreys' catches in the recent Minny and Dallas games. he plays a lot bigger than 6'3"

[LBC mike]

We need to draft a CB this year. Find a stud/lockdown back. Our scouts have to do their homework. Shermer from the Seahawks is getting paid like below 200k a year right now. He is average or above average. Screw getting an overpaid FA CB.

[Flyin J]

Whoever is saying Haden isn't elite hasn't watched much football the last few years. Not much them guys can do with the rules nowadays. Hes as good as they come. If we were getting pressure on the QB, his name would be called a lot less. He has been toasted on some double moves this year but he's aggreaive which I like and no one guesses right every time.

[utzie]

We need to draft a CB this year. Find a stud/lockdown back. Our scouts have to do their homework. Shermer from the Seahawks is getting paid like below 200k a year right now. He is average or above average. Screw getting an overpaid FA CB.

 

I'm assuming you are referring to Richard Sherman here. I wouldn't call having 18 interceptions in his first 3 years (most in the NFL in that time period) being average... Also, he is on a rookie contract so obviously he isn't going to make a lot right now (although it's closer to 560k, not 200k), but I wouldn't be surprised if he is the highest paid CB in the league after next season when his contract is up.