Westside Steve Posted January 4, 2014 Report Share Posted January 4, 2014 Sorry guys. I went to delete a post I had just made and accidentally wound up deleting the entire thread. I apologize. WSS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MLD Woody Posted January 4, 2014 Report Share Posted January 4, 2014 Lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Cysko Kid Posted January 4, 2014 Report Share Posted January 4, 2014 No great loss Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calfoxwc Posted January 5, 2014 Report Share Posted January 5, 2014 I had just profoundly won, showing that plenty of scientists disagree that mmgw is fact... What irony. All my brilliant rebuttal, "poof". Several minutes of research down the drain. May the winter mosquites plaque you, Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MLD Woody Posted January 5, 2014 Report Share Posted January 5, 2014 Haha haha, you're full of yourself. Only in your brain was that a "brilliant rebuttal" where you "profoundly won". Lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gftChris Posted January 5, 2014 Report Share Posted January 5, 2014 I had just profoundly won, showing that plenty of scientists disagree that mmgw is fact... What irony. All my brilliant rebuttal, "poof". Several minutes of research down the drain. May the winter mosquites plaque you, Steve. I must have missed that post... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calfoxwc Posted January 5, 2014 Report Share Posted January 5, 2014 I can't find it again yet... but here is another good one: http://www.petitionproject.org/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MLD Woody Posted January 5, 2014 Report Share Posted January 5, 2014 Random people on the internet signed a petition? I'm sold. Even though only 39 of them claim to be climatologists... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Cysko Kid Posted January 8, 2014 Report Share Posted January 8, 2014 So like -16 without the wind chill this morning. Record low temperatures all over the country makes it sort of difficult to believe the global warming apocalypse doom-criers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gftChris Posted January 8, 2014 Report Share Posted January 8, 2014 So like -16 without the wind chill this morning. Record low temperatures all over the country makes it sort of difficult to believe the global warming apocalypse doom-criers. You're sort of contradicting yourself there. Global warming/climate change doesn't necessarily mean that every place in the world will see its temperatures rise by a couple of degrees, while maintaining the same basic distribution; rather, it makes the likelihood/frequency of freak weather conditions increase, while the planet on average gets warmer. What you're experiencing now, would count as freak weather, I would say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gftChris Posted January 8, 2014 Report Share Posted January 8, 2014 I can't find it again yet... but here is another good one: http://www.petitionproject.org/ Right, let's look at this petition then: "The proposed limits on greenhouse gases would harm the environment, hinder the advance of science and technology, and damage the health and welfare of mankind." Says what evidence? OR is it all just assumptions and guesswork? "There is no convincing scientific evidence that human release of carbon dioxide, methane, or other greenhouse gasses is causing or will, in the foreseeable future, cause catastrophic heating of the Earth's atmosphere and disruption of the Earth's climate." Yes, yes there is. I'm not going to go out and find every study on the subject - or just copy and paste a load of meaningless google results - but the evidence is there. On top of the problems with the statements, there's the fact that it's only signed by 40k people - of which only 39 are climatologists. When you consider the sheer number of people that are qualified to the same level as the signatories that haven't signed, it becomes a bit less impressive. There are over 10 million scientists qualified in the fields stated on the petition, so it represents only about 0.4% of people that they are claiming are qualified to comment. To get a more representative view, you should look at all the scientific papers being published on the subject matter and their conclusions on it. Fortunately, someone's already done this for us - lots of people, in fact. The most recent was in 2013, with the following results: We analyze the evolution of the scientific consensus on anthropogenic global warming (AGW) in the peer-reviewed scientific literature, examining 11 944 climate abstracts from 1991–2011 matching the topics 'global climate change' or 'global warming'. We find that 66.4% of abstracts expressed no position on AGW, 32.6% endorsed AGW, 0.7% rejected AGW and 0.3% were uncertain about the cause of global warming. Among abstracts expressing a position on AGW, 97.1% endorsed the consensus position that humans are causing global warming. In a second phase of this study, we invited authors to rate their own papers. Compared to abstract ratings, a smaller percentage of self-rated papers expressed no position on AGW (35.5%). Among self-rated papers expressing a position on AGW, 97.2% endorsed the consensus. For both abstract ratings and authors' self-ratings, the percentage of endorsements among papers expressing a position on AGW marginally increased over time. Our analysis indicates that the number of papers rejecting the consensus on AGW is a vanishingly small proportion of the published research. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gftChris Posted January 8, 2014 Report Share Posted January 8, 2014 In fact, this site sums it up quite nicely: http://www.skepticalscience.com/OISM-Petition-Project.htm As well as other questions people might have: http://www.skepticalscience.com/argument.php Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadbrownsfan Posted January 8, 2014 Report Share Posted January 8, 2014 You're sort of contradicting yourself there. Global warming/climate change doesn't necessarily mean that every place in the world will see its temperatures rise by a couple of degrees, while maintaining the same basic distribution; rather, it makes the likelihood/frequency of freak weather conditions increase, while the planet on average gets warmer. What you're experiencing now, would count as freak weather, I would say. Kind of like it went from about the 40 in ohio on last sunday, to -12 on monday night/tuesday morning, and could possibly get back up to 50 by saturday.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieHardBrownsFan Posted January 8, 2014 Report Share Posted January 8, 2014 I think man has an effect on the temperature for sure, but doubt that it is anything major compared to volcano's, cow farts, and other natural phenomenon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gftChris Posted January 8, 2014 Report Share Posted January 8, 2014 I think man has an effect on the temperature for sure, but doubt that it is anything major compared to volcano's, cow farts, and other natural phenomenon. Well, no. That site I posted earlier is actually a useful resource at times like this. Generic anti-MMGW claim: Human CO2 is a tiny % of CO2 emissions “The oceans contain 37,400 billion tons (GT) of suspended carbon, land biomass has 2000-3000 GT. The atpmosphere contains 720 billion tons of CO2 and humans contribute only 6 GT additional load on this balance. The oceans, land and atpmosphere exchange CO2 continuously so the additional load by humans is incredibly small. A small shift in the balance between oceans and air would cause aCO2 much more severe rise than anything we could produce.” What the science says: The CO2 that nature emits (from the ocean and vegetation) is balanced by natural absorptions (again by the ocean and vegetation). Therefore human emissions upset the natural balance, rising CO2 to levels not seen in at least 800,000 years. In fact, human emit 26 gigatonnes of CO2 per year while CO2 in the atmosphere is rising by only 15 gigatonnes per year - much of human CO2 emissions is being absorbed by natural sinks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westside Steve Posted January 8, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 8, 2014 http://www.forbes.com/sites/michellemaisto/2012/04/28/eating-less-meat-is-worlds-best-chance-for-timely-climate-change-say-experts/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MLD Woody Posted January 8, 2014 Report Share Posted January 8, 2014 So like -16 without the wind chill this morning. Record low temperatures all over the country makes it sort of difficult to believe the global warming apocalypse doom-criers. There are also record high temperatures in Australia right now. One of the predictions with climate change is more extremes. higher highs, lower lows and crazy weather, while the overall average temp is rising Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gftChris Posted January 8, 2014 Report Share Posted January 8, 2014 http://www.forbes.com/sites/michellemaisto/2012/04/28/eating-less-meat-is-worlds-best-chance-for-timely-climate-change-say-experts/ Exactly, more evidence of humans having an impact on the environment, I'm glad you agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westside Steve Posted January 8, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 8, 2014 Exactly, more evidence of humans having an impact on the environment, I'm glad you agree. Are you stereo typing everyone who doesn't share the world wide hysteria? I've never said that mankind has no effect on whatever difference the co2 level makes. I just keep repeating that if it is actually that important to anybody that they should really be vegan and walk wherever they go. Or they should STFU and quit bothering me about it. WSS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MLD Woody Posted January 8, 2014 Report Share Posted January 8, 2014 Who is bothering you about it? No one person is going to make a change. It all has to come from govt and policy makers. But, do to politics and lobby groups mudding the waters and creating confusion among the public, we are still waiting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gftChris Posted January 8, 2014 Report Share Posted January 8, 2014 Are you stereo typing everyone who doesn't share the world wide hysteria? I've never said that mankind has no effect on whatever difference the co2 level makes. I just keep repeating that if it is actually that important to anybody that they should really be vegan and walk wherever they go. Or they should STFU and quit bothering me about it. WSS Sorry, I thought it was DieHard who posted it. But the point remains, it's because of us humans that we have these issues. And yes, everybody going vegan would have a big impact on it, but it's not exactly likely! Then again, if we start taxing meat from these animals for example to make it difficult to afford, so that less is consumed, eventually the total cow population will decrease and their effect will decrease with it. So yes, it's a valid point. But I love a good steak Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gftChris Posted January 8, 2014 Report Share Posted January 8, 2014 Sorry, I thought it was DieHard who posted it. But the point remains, it's because of us humans that we have these issues. And yes, everybody going vegan would have a big impact on it, but it's not exactly likely! Then again, if we start taxing meat from these animals for example to make it difficult to afford, so that less is consumed, eventually the total cow population will decrease and their effect will decrease with it. So yes, it's a valid point. But I love a good steak Also, this: http://www.skepticalscience.com/methane-and-global-warming.htm This may become the stock way to respond to MMGW questions in future - the facts seem to be nicely laid out for us there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westside Steve Posted January 8, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 8, 2014 So you propose outlawing meet? Or at least forcing the prices so high that none but the richest Americans can afford it? And almost no one in the developing countries, correct? I will answer for you of course I don't think you are proposing that and I'm not seriously asking the question. As to the question from Woody who is bothering me about it? Well sir I'd say that the people who actually do want to make things like automobile travel and heating and cooling your home and manufacturing the items you want to buy outrageously expensive by piling on the taxes are the people who are bothering me. The people who wanted the United States to sign the Kyoto Accord. Those people woody. Not you, I don't think you take anything seriously beyond calling people idiots. WSS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gftChris Posted January 8, 2014 Report Share Posted January 8, 2014 So you propose outlawing meet? Or at least forcing the prices so high that none but the richest Americans can afford it? And almost no one in the developing countries, correct? I will answer for you of course I don't think you are proposing that and I'm not seriously asking the question. As to the question from Woody who is bothering me about it? Well sir I'd say that the people who actually do want to make things like automobile travel and heating and cooling your home and manufacturing the items you want to buy outrageously expensive by piling on the taxes are the people who are bothering me. The people who wanted the United States to sign the Kyoto Accord. Those people woody. Not you, I don't think you take anything seriously beyond calling people idiots. WSS Of course, on the meat thing. But it's indicative - people won't make the necessary changes on their own because there's no incentive to - one person won't make the difference. So it's up to the policy makers to make the decisions en masse. To be fair, the person most bothering me about it is cal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westside Steve Posted January 8, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 8, 2014 Also you know uni lateral action by the United States doesn't put a dent in whatever problem you guys perceive merely tends to bankrupt us. Let us agree that there are a lot of injuries in the NFL. The AFC North has decided that we will no longer tackle our opponents. Who's with me Fellowes? WSS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gftChris Posted January 8, 2014 Report Share Posted January 8, 2014 Also you know uni lateral action by the United States doesn't put a dent in whatever problem you guys perceive merely tends to bankrupt us. Let us agree that there are a lot of injuries in the NFL. The AFC North has decided that we will no longer tackle our opponents. Who's with me Fellowes? WSS And that's the kind of defeatist attitude that causes the problems. Sure, if one country, even one as big and developed as the USA, makes the change, the impact is quite small. But if all countries make the change - probably involving ganging up on China and India at some point - then we can start to make progress in reversing the CO2 trend. Pick whichever metaphor you like, along the lines of "all journeys start with a single step" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westside Steve Posted January 8, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 8, 2014 So that does kind of make it a de facto dictatorship, right? I mean by forcing people to do what you want through taxation. Kind of rubs human beings the wrong way don't you think? Especially those of us who cling to the fantasy of freedom. Well maybe not us but some of you guys. And that is Cals job...... somebody has to do it. Unfortunately we do not have another Heck whose job it was to defend Obama in each and every instance. Oh well.... WSS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gftChris Posted January 8, 2014 Report Share Posted January 8, 2014 So that does kind of make it a de facto dictatorship, right? I mean by forcing people to do what you want through taxation. Kind of rubs human beings the wrong way don't you think? Especially those of us who cling to the fantasy of freedom. Well maybe not us but some of you guys. And that is Cals job...... somebody has to do it. Unfortunately we do not have another Heck whose job it was to defend Obama in each and every instance. Oh well.... WSS That's because Obama isn't right in every instance. Nor is David Cameron. So while I'll agree with the general philosophy, I'll disagree with some policies. but anyway, yes, the best thing for the people is a benevolent, omniscient dictatorship. Unfortunately we're not smart enough to have someone like that to put in charge, so we go with whoever we think is best. That just happens to change frequently! What we call a democratic government isn't really that, it's democratically elected, then proceeds to tell us what to do. There's no point having a democratic vote on every issue because it's an infeasible system of government. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westside Steve Posted January 8, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 8, 2014 Defeatist? I would say realist. Yes we can certainly punish ourselves in order to punish China and India. You suppose someone else might think to take advantage of that by purchasing all their stuff from them? Not to mention that we're talking about guys like you and me and woody and everybody who flatly refuse to take any action until we are forced to by the Great and Powerful Obama. But to the journey and the one step gag you are correct. Digging to the Center of the Earth begins with a tablespoon of dirt. WSS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MLD Woody Posted January 8, 2014 Report Share Posted January 8, 2014 Why would anyone dig with a tablespoon? Also, props to working "The great and powerful Obama" into your last few posts. So you propose outlawing meet? Or at least forcing the prices so high that none but the richest Americans can afford it? And almost no one in the developing countries, correct? Woooooh broseph, slow down. I don't think he said any of those things. I am not sure why a tax = making it not affordable. Those people woody. Not you, I don't think you take anything seriously beyond calling people idiots. Oh man, you got me.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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