Clevedog Posted March 25, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 25, 2014 He's faster larger and stronger than D'Qwell, smaller than mingo (who is already too small to play OLB in the NFL) so Shazier at OLB isn't really an option in 4-3 or 3-4. He is an ILB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flyin J Posted March 25, 2014 Report Share Posted March 25, 2014 What^? How is he too small for 4-3 OLB? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flyin J Posted March 25, 2014 Report Share Posted March 25, 2014 Keep in mind there are successful OLB in a 4-3 who are 5-11 220 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clevedog Posted March 25, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 25, 2014 There aren't many. Most around 240-260. It could be possible but even if it were I would assume it is for a year or two until dansby is ready to give up his spot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miktoxic Posted March 25, 2014 Report Share Posted March 25, 2014 if we draft mack this thread is moot. if not there are 3 other LBs that'll be @26 that i like better than shazier. i like the bucs too. only root for ohio teams and they are on the top of the list. doesn't mean i automatically think they have the best pro prospects that the cleveland browns MUST draft, unless they do. hyde, shazier and roby are all going to land on an NFL roster. doesn't mean it will be the browns roster. if this is your wish scenario, fine. we'll just know how to judge you and your opinions. clevedog meet PoG. PoG meet clevedog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clevfan4life Posted March 25, 2014 Report Share Posted March 25, 2014 I was big on Watkins before the Hawkins signing, now I dunno. Here's my question and it's something really only Pettine and Farmer can realistically answer. Can Khalil Mack not just make the transition to ILB but in a few years be the captain of the team and at least approaching Ray Lewis type of field command? Athletically he's probably even more gifted than Lewis was coming out of college, but he can he approach Lewis's brain for the game? Ray Lewis was the Peyton Manning of defense, that's a guy we desperately need. If Mack can be close to that we have to take him at 4. If he's just a dumb pass rusher who will never understand how offense's are trying to fuck with him, than I dunno...we can find guys like that in later rounds. By all accounts Urlacher had an outstanding career but a lot of insiders wrote that while he was a physical freak, he was a dumbass for most of his career. If not for Lance Briggs Urlacher would not have been what he was. Only towards the end of his career did he start to really intrinsically understand the game. I don't want that. I want the next fucking Ray Lewis. Now I know you all like the Dansby deal, but I still would have genuflected at the idea of having Mack study under DQ. That would have been my prime defensive scenario even though I think Clowney is the best defensive player in the draft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Buffalo Posted March 26, 2014 Report Share Posted March 26, 2014 I've already stated I have him playing ILB not OLB. As for Guitton that's an interesting thought... He has good passing instinct and touch and is somewhat mobile. Would be a very good project QB for someone. One of Shaziers biggest weaknesses is his ability to stuff the run and you want to put him at MLB? He is the perfect size for a blitzing 4-3 OLB, but he would not only be terrible as a MLB in any scheme, but likely out a bunch from injuries. Don't try to put a square peg into a round hole and try to tell me its a triangle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clevedog Posted March 26, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 26, 2014 if we draft mack this thread is moot. if not there are 3 other LBs that'll be @26 that i like better than shazier. i like the bucs too. only root for ohio teams and they are on the top of the list. doesn't mean i automatically think they have the best pro prospects that the cleveland browns MUST draft, unless they do. hyde, shazier and roby are all going to land on an NFL roster. doesn't mean it will be the browns roster. if this is your wish scenario, fine. we'll just know how to judge you and your opinions. clevedog meet PoG. PoG meet clevedog. I'm not aware of three LB's between Mack and Shazier, nor are any of the professional analysts out there. Also, I think I laid out a pretty good case for why each pick was in the place it was and never based any of the decisions on the guys being Buckeyes - that's just a plus to me from a fan standpoint. No need to take a condescending stance though it seems that's fairly common here. Of course if Mack is drafted it is moot, which I also explained in the write-up. It just so happens the Bucks have very highly touted players in two of the positions that the Pettine and the Browns value, that's all there is to it. Shazier was deemed worth it because of his speed and playmaking ability - Pettine has said several times how much he values both on his defense, including this morning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clevedog Posted March 26, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 26, 2014 One of Shaziers biggest weaknesses is his ability to stuff the run and you want to put him at MLB? He is the perfect size for a blitzing 4-3 OLB, but he would not only be terrible as a MLB in any scheme, but likely out a bunch from injuries. Don't try to put a square peg into a round hole and try to tell me its a triangle. He's too small to be an OLB, period. They're 6'3+ 240+. Not 6'1 225. He's MLB size. If Mingo is too small to play OLB how is Shazier perfect size? How are there this many people that think OLB in the NFL are 6'1-6'2 225? At any rate, he's good at stopping the run, actually great at it - what he struggled with mostly was playing the run. Stuffing the run - making the play when in position Playing the run - reading the play and putting yourself in position to make the play Like Roby, I believe most of his struggle was due to OSU's terrible defensive schemes. I could be wrong, but I'm not the only one who thinks this either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miktoxic Posted March 26, 2014 Report Share Posted March 26, 2014 Linebacker 1. Khalil Mack, Buffalo 2. C.J. Mosley, Alabama 3. Anthony Barr, UCLA 4. Chris Borland, Wisconsin 5. Ryan Shazier, Ohio State Cornerback 1. Darqueze Dennard, Michigan State 2. Justin Gilbert, Oklahoma State 3. Kyle Fuller, Virginia Tech 4. Jason Verrett, TCU 5. Bradley Roby, Ohio State Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Buffalo Posted March 26, 2014 Report Share Posted March 26, 2014 He's too small to be an OLB, period. They're 6'3+ 240+. Not 6'1 225. He's MLB size. If Mingo is too small to play OLB how is Shazier perfect size? How are there this many people that think OLB in the NFL are 6'1-6'2 225? At any rate, he's good at stopping the run, actually great at it - what he struggled with mostly was playing the run. Stuffing the run - making the play when in position Playing the run - reading the play and putting yourself in position to make the play Like Roby, I believe most of his struggle was due to OSU's terrible defensive schemes. I could be wrong, but I'm not the only one who thinks this either. I've never personally claimed that Mingo is too small to play OLB. He MIGHT be considered small as a 3-4 OLB, but I don't think too many would consider him small as a 4-3 OLB. You need to take into account that OLB and MLB are different when it comes to a 3-4 and a 4-3 defense. By ANY account your MLB in either defense needs to have more meat on them because they need to go down hill and take on Guards and Rushers. OLB need to be faster as they have to get more around the edge and to the sidelines. Your right, he can play the run, but I want my MLB to stuff the run, but run people down from behind when they are already 5+ yards down the field. As I have also said Shazier is not a run STUFFER. He gets people in the side and from behind by using his superior athletic ability. He does not have the size or the strength to shed blocks very well or to to most rushers head on. This has been PROVEN. It is in his film. Maybe I am being a bit more ridiculous by saying that he can't play OLB in a 3-4, cause he does have good blitzing ability and is more proven in coverage, but by in no way am I off track by saying he wouldn't make it as a MLB in any scheme in the NFL, at least not at his current weight. I'm also not claiming that OSU has the best schemes, but I saw the same thing all through Shaziers career. And if the scheme is the issue how do you explain Roby being dominate in 2012 and medicare in 2013? It wasn't the scheme that was getting him burnt. And out of all of this, my main issue still stands. Shazier is a serious injury risk. I don't want to see the Browns draft a guy in the second round who misses on average 1 quarter a game. That's one thing when your 30 and still playing, but at 23 or what ever he is that is a huge concern. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clevedog Posted March 26, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 26, 2014 Absolutely. No doubt the injury is a risk but assuming the drafted Watkins at 4 I think he'll be the best player available at 26 other than receivers or corners. QBs that I wouldn't mind drafting (Carr McCarron garappolo) will all either be gone (carr) or available later in the draft. Corner is particularly deep so I don't mind waiting to Draft one and that leaves Shazier. Again injury is a risk, but it was with t rich too (bad pick for other reasons) etc. As for Roby I obviously can't prove it, nor can anyone on either side, but gambling corners live feast or famine often. This is what I believe happened with Roby and with good coaching it won't continue. That and osu defensive schemes hurt as well. That's just the thought. Won't know until we or someone else drafts him and we see how he develops of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tour2ma Posted March 27, 2014 Report Share Posted March 27, 2014 He's too small to be an OLB, period. They're 6'3+ 240+. Not 6'1 225. He's MLB size. If Mingo is too small to play OLB how is Shazier perfect size? How are there this many people that think OLB in the NFL are 6'1-6'2 225? All your size comments just did not ring true. Unfortunately google failed to turn up any size data broken down to scheme and in/ outside position... so I did a little digging. Seems clear to me that: - the largest LBs tend to be 3-4 OLBs, - the smallest 4-3 OLBs, and - MLBs/ILBs tend to fall in between. Also thought it might be enlightening to look at Buffalo's LBs. Based on what I see, it seems to me to be a safe bet that Shazier will not be a Brown. All the data is from here: http://www.nfl.com/players/search?category=team&playerType=current In the table OLBs are listed first and MLBs/ILBs second as follows: Team ----- OLB / OLB ..... MLB or ILB / ILB Teams that run the 3-4 currently include: Niners ------ 6'3 259 / 6'4 265 ....... 6'1 240 / 6'0 242 Jets --------- 6'6 290 / 6'4 265 ....... 6'2 250 / 6'2 239 Cardinals -- 6'4 263 / 6'5 285 ....... 6'2 238 / 6'1 242 Ravens ----- 5'11 260 /6'3 260 ....... 6'2 248 / 6'1 240 Packers ---- 6'3 255 / 6'3 265 ....... 6'1 247 / 6'3 242 Chiefs ------ 6'3 258 / 6'3 275 ....... 6'3 242 / 6'2 249 Chargers --- 6'2 255 / 6'3 260 ....... 6'1 242 / 6'1 241 Redskins --- 6'4 260 / --------- ....... 5'10 242/ 6'0 238 Eagles ------- 6'4 264 / 6'3 270 ....... 6'0 240 / 6'1 247 Steelers ----- 6'2 262 / 6'1 248 ....... 6'1 234 / 6'1 250 0 of 19 OLBs under 240; 4 of 20 ILBs under 240. Teams that currently run the 4-3 defense include: Seahawks -- 6'3 248 / 6'4 246 ....... 6'0 241 Bengals ---- 6'1 255 / 6'1 237 ....... 6'2 255 Bears ------- 6'1 244 / 6'1 245 ....... 6'1 245 Bucs -------- 6'1 233 / 6'1 227 ....... 6'1 241 Cowboys --- 6'2 246 / 6'2 234 ....... 6'2 234 Falcons ----- 6'2 230 / 6'0 230 ....... 6'1 239 Rams ------- 6'3 237 / 6'2 245 ....... 6'2 248 Lions -------- 6'2 238 / 6'1 236 ....... 5'11 240 Jaguars ----- 6'1 226 / 6'3 238 ....... 6'2 242 Vikings ------ 6'2 242 / 6'1 243 ....... 6'3 244 Panthers ---- 6'1 235 / 6'3 245 ....... 6'3 235 12 of 22 OLBs under 240; 3 of 11 MLBs under 240 4 of 22 OLBs at/under 230 Buffalo Bills MLB 6'3 238 <--- lightest LB OLB 6'2 241 OLB 6'2 254 OLB 6'5 240 OLB 6'3 249 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clevedog Posted March 27, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 27, 2014 Great reply! So my thinking on this is Shazier doesn't fit either position and shouldn't be drafted! However he obviously will get drafted and he is too small to play OLB in 3-4 and not ideal for either position in 4-3. He will either go to a 4-3 OLB or ILB or he will go to a 3-4 ILB. Not sure which but my suspicion obviously is that if the Browns fill the WR need at 4 and he is available they may draft him for depth and to replace dansby in a year. Really good data though. I love data. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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