hoorta Posted January 27, 2015 Report Share Posted January 27, 2015 In a perfect world, a franchise quarterback is the key cog of your team. Floor- Flacco, Ceiling- Brady. It's a nebulous concept, I understand. I kind of look at it this way: Tier 1 - (Can't do without) Brady Manning Rodgers- fixed it. Roethlisberger Flacco Wilson Luck Brees Tier 2- (Probably can't do without) Dalton Newton Stafford Ryan Other Manning Romo Tier 1 quarterbacks are interchangeable among themselves. Tier 2 quarterbacks are, predictably, only beaten by Tier 1 quarterbacks. So on and so forth. We've only tried drafting one high-level franchise savior - Tim Couch. For reasons beyond Couch's control, he failed. Any QB would have failed with that team. No line help, no receiver help, no runningback help. It was a very poor Browns team. Our other first round QB's (Quinn, Weeden, and Manziel) were taken in the late first, after 20 or more teams had passed on them. Quinn and Manziel had monumental slides, falling from Top 5 prospects to late first round fliers. That's not "franchise material". Those were scared, ill-informed picks. Quinn fits into maybe two of the aforementioned criterium of franchise QB's - unique and team success. He wasn't a leader and he's a very vanilla prospect. Nothing stood out about him except his wonky throw. Manziel... we could talk for days about what qualities he does and doesn't possess. Like Rodgers, all three of those guys should have waited. Unfortunately, they couldn't. Due to not having other QB's or simple age limitations, those first round projects were thrust into the spotlight and, predictably, collapsed. Not a recipe for success. Frye and McCoy were never meant to be franchise saviors. They were third round prospects with some qualities and a lot of knocks. They were projects. Yet, due to poor play from our other quarterbacks, they became the "unlikely saviors". Then, once the magic wears off, we're left with mediocre talented game managers on a team devoid of playmakers. Also not a recipe for success. Anderson, of all of our draft picks, may have honestly been the best QB pick in terms of value, franchise potential and talent. Unfortunately, he got run out of town. Now he's the best backup in the league. Thanks for making my point- How many of those guys were the #1 overall, or a top 10? How many years between when they were drafted? So yeah- unless you get lucky with a Brady, Romo, or Warner- draft a qb high and cross your fingers that you get a Luck instead of an RG III, a Manning instead of a Ryan Leaf. It's not an exact science. If you could re-do the immortal 1983 draft Dan Marino would have been a top 5 pick. BTW- Rodgers, Flacco and Brees all were all drafted at roughly the same unlucky #22 spot we used, some even lower. So a ton of qb needy teams didn't recognize their potential greatness either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gftChris Posted January 27, 2015 Report Share Posted January 27, 2015 Thanks for making my point- How many of those guys were the #1 overall, or a top 10? How many years between when they were drafted? So yeah- unless you get lucky with a Brady, Romo, or Warner- draft a qb high and cross your fingers that you get a Luck instead of an RG III, a Manning instead of a Ryan Leaf. It's not an exact science. If you could re-do the immortal 1983 draft Dan Marino would have been a top 5 pick. BTW- Rodgers, Flacco and Brees all were all drafted at roughly the same unlucky #22 spot we used, some even lower. So a ton of qb needy teams didn't recognize their potential greatness either. There are plenty of 'serviceable' QBs that have been taken lower than we've been drafting forever - not just Romo, Warner, Brady, but also the likes of Wilson, Rodgers, Brees, Kaepernick and even Flacco and Dalton were outside top-10 picks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Couch Pulls Out Posted January 27, 2015 Report Share Posted January 27, 2015 Not even going to bother reading a post from someone that think Manziel was going to be a star in this league. Go ahead. Watch a few youtube videos and think you know something. Do you have me confused for someone else? I know it's hard for you to retain facts in that big water head of yours, you dumb fucking dolt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tml1138 Posted January 27, 2015 Report Share Posted January 27, 2015 Anderson, of all of our draft picks, may have honestly been the best QB pick in terms of value, franchise potential and talent. Unfortunately, he got run out of town. Now he's the best backup in the league. Anderson wasn't one of our draft picks. Ravens drafted him (had to look up the round, it was in the sixth of 2005 draft) and dropped him, then the Browns picked him up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Couch Pulls Out Posted January 27, 2015 Report Share Posted January 27, 2015 Thanks for making my point- How many of those guys were the #1 overall, or a top 10? How many years between when they were drafted? So yeah- unless you get lucky with a Brady, Romo, or Warner- draft a qb high and cross your fingers that you get a Luck instead of an RG III, a Manning instead of a Ryan Leaf. It's not an exact science. If you could re-do the immortal 1983 draft Dan Marino would have been a top 5 pick. BTW- Rodgers, Flacco and Brees all were all drafted at roughly the same unlucky #22 spot we used, some even lower. So a ton of qb needy teams didn't recognize their potential greatness either. Totally spaced on Rodgers, which is crazy because his is the only non-Browns jersey I own and wear. One of my favorites of all time. People like to compare Luck vs. RG3, but they were never in the same league. Luck was by-and-large the best QB in that draft, a full on can't-miss prospect. RG3 was an intriguing prospect with seemingly limitless upside and, because of which, an elevated injury risk. Turns out the worry about his health was well-founded. Manning v. Leaf was a much closer debate, I'll allow, but even then there were more questions about Leaf's character than there were Manning's abilities. What those two cases are showing is that off-the-field and injury concerns are solid concerns. High-risk/high-reward rarely ends well for first round QB's. I'm not saying that QB's drafted in the 20's are doomed for failure. What I'm saying is that, if a QB is taken in that position, there's a reason why. Both Quinn and Manziel were slotted for Top 5-Top 10...then they magically slid. So that means there were 20 or so other teams that knew something about them that the Browns didn't or wouldn't acknowledge. Weeden was slotted as a second-round project, not a first round franchise QB. Flacco, Rodgers and Brees all had their concerns but were, for the most part, drafted near their projections. Brees, it was his height. Flacco, it was his lack of production against quality FBS schools. Rodgers was thought to be a product of a Jeff Tedford system. None of those were concerns about maturity, leadership, mental makeup, skills, etc. Finding a franchise guy doesn't mean you have to take him first overall. It means you find a guy who possesses many of the same qualities of former or current franchise QB's, fits your offensive identity, and then you do whatever it takes to go and get him. It doesn't mean taking a flier on someone who can run around and play backyard football, it doesn't mean taking the 6'7" guy just because he can throw it 90 yards while sitting, it doesn't mean taking the thin-framed running QB, it doesn't mean taking the guy who threw 90% completion percentage in college with a 5.4 YPA in D-III. Those are projects. If you're going to take a project, at least make sure you have a viable quarterback to man the fort while the project sits. It's not an exact science, you're right. But it's also not rocket science, nor are the Browns cursed. We've just tried every which way but the right way. Don't bargain basement shop. Don't try and force a project into a starting role too early. Don't try to change the game. If there's not a clear and present favorite for your franchise, then don't waste a pick on a quarterback on a wing and a prayer. The Browns have only swung on for one franchise player since coming back - Couch. Unfortunately, it failed. Manziel was a project. Weeden was a project. Quinn was a value pick. Frye was a developmental guy. McCoy was a developmental guy. None of those were "This guy is going to change our franchise, let's stop at nothing to get him" picks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Couch Pulls Out Posted January 27, 2015 Report Share Posted January 27, 2015 Anderson wasn't one of our draft picks. Ravens drafted him (had to look up the round, it was in the sixth of 2005 draft) and dropped him, then the Browns picked him up. That's right. Even better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ballpeen Posted January 27, 2015 Report Share Posted January 27, 2015 I agree....sounds like a typical "year end review" type of meeting.... with an eye on "where are we going next?"....and who's doin what?.... Nothing like being on the same page..... The only dysfunction i see with this group is in the imagination of the fans who dont understand how well run operations work....... I agree. There are lot's of issues to discuss. I know Pettine wants to take training camp out of Berea. I am sure that was a topic of discussion. It's not uncommon to go off site for planning sessions. It is a less formal enviornment. People tend to loosen up and think outside the box in a more relaxed environment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adoug319 Posted January 28, 2015 Report Share Posted January 28, 2015 I;m in the school of thought that we should keep building this team with BPAs, and adding depth to both lines and the defense.. Acquire a bigWR in FA or the draft and keep the same QBs as last year. I don't see any Andrew Luck's in this draft, besides Jameis (who still has a lot to prove) and he'll be long gone by 12. Brian Hoyer was leading a playoff team before the injuries started piling up. Run game and Defense We will find our franchise QB soon enough Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoorta Posted January 28, 2015 Report Share Posted January 28, 2015 I;m in the school of thought that we should keep building this team with BPAs, and adding depth to both lines and the defense.. Acquire a bigWR in FA or the draft and keep the same QBs as last year. I don't see any Andrew Luck's in this draft, besides Jameis (who still has a lot to prove) and he'll be long gone by 12. Brian Hoyer was leading a playoff team before the injuries started piling up. Run game and Defense We will find our franchise QB soon enough You're right about Famous Jameis. He has all the measurables Manziel doesn't. But the same off-field concerns- maybe worse. We're not swinging for the fences two years running on a character risk. Mariota has the same concerns as JFF- gimmick system, can he convert to a pro-style offense? I thought Cardale Jones clearly outplayed him in the National Championship. Don't get me wrong- I love Brian Hoyer- but he's limited. Arm strength is adequate, but his deep ball accuracy frankly sucks. Opposing teams know this, and they'll crowd the box on him now that they have tape, and dare him to beat them over the top with a misguided missile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miktoxic Posted January 28, 2015 Report Share Posted January 28, 2015 This club at one point in the season was 7-4 and ended up 7-9. That is what I would like to see diagnosed. How and why did we collapse? I thought our running game wasn't good after Mack went down. I hope Hoyer stays with team for next season. I think he is a good QB and I wonder just how good he can be with improvements made on the offense? because our run stoppers on the DL got injured and our center on the OL went down. those are the 2 major reasons IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexasAg1969 Posted January 28, 2015 Report Share Posted January 28, 2015 I'd like to see Hoyer return too, but I suspect he is asking too much money. But then again he kind of has the Browns over a Barrel in the QB position. Would you bet your team on essentially two guys who have just over two games between them in the NFL? It will be interesting to see how they handle the QB and now WR questions. Will it be to the detriment of building from the lines up? That is the real question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Couch Pulls Out Posted January 28, 2015 Report Share Posted January 28, 2015 You're right about Famous Jameis. He has all the measurables Manziel doesn't. But the same off-field concerns- maybe worse. We're not swinging for the fences two years running on a character risk. Mariota has the same concerns as JFF- gimmick system, can he convert to a pro-style offense? I thought Cardale Jones clearly outplayed him in the National Championship. Don't get me wrong- I love Brian Hoyer- but he's limited. Arm strength is adequate, but his deep ball accuracy frankly sucks. Opposing teams know this, and they'll crowd the box on him now that they have tape, and dare him to beat them over the top with a misguided missile. I think the character concerns are much less concerning with Jameis than Manziel. Obviously the rape issue is huge. That goes without saying. According to his account, which wasn't necessarily outright denied by the accuser, it sounds like a dumb college kid who got drunk at a party and hooked up with a girl while she was very drunk. Creepy and wrong, certainly. Morally questionable, absolutely. A forceful rapist, probably not. This kind of "hookup" happens thousands of times every weekend across the country. Then the shitstorm came about and FSU tried to sweep it under the rug, which made matters infinitely worse. I know close personal friends who have literally uttered the statement "I was so drunk last night, I barely even (or don't) remember having sex with him/her". My generation loves to get stupid hammered, meet a person or two from Tinder, then go hook up. That's just what happens now. I don't pretend to like it, but I know it's the case. As for standing up and yelling an obscenity at a cafeteria table? Wouldn't even be talked about if the other issue didn't exist. Jameis would be a consensus #1. Kid hasn't done even half of the immature shit Manziel did or is still doing. Obviously I'm not condoning or excusing his behavior. It is concerning. But if you've read the documents available, it's not nearly what it's made out to be. It was a stupid kid who made a stupid mistake and then someone possibly attempting a shakedown. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ballpeen Posted January 28, 2015 Report Share Posted January 28, 2015 Obviously I'm not condoning or excusing his behavior. No, it isn't obvious. Nearly everything you wrote sounds like an excuse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BaconHound Posted January 29, 2015 Report Share Posted January 29, 2015 Haslam, Farmer and Pettine off on a 3 day retreat to discuss strategy. It will be interesting to see what their strategy going forward will be? I keep seeing hints about going after the franchise qb. I don't know. We have had big problems in this area. I thought Mariota might be worth going after but I agree with some who have posted here about him playing in a gimmicky offense at Oregon. Winston has the personal issues but looks like he would be a good qb. The other option I see is trying to improve the team with our draft, signing Hoyer as a FA, Shaw as back up. That is the one I like. If Manziel is not on this team I think the best decision was made, however someone from the Haslam/Farmer duo needs to go on TV and say they fucked up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Couch Pulls Out Posted January 29, 2015 Report Share Posted January 29, 2015 No, it isn't obvious. Nearly everything you wrote sounds like an excuse. Or facts. Was he convicted? “It was the gluteus maximus, the rectum, the testicles and the area in between the testicles. And all that was on my face when I pushed him up. … To get leverage, I took my head out to push him up and off.” I mean, does that honestly sound like something a scumbag would do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ballpeen Posted January 29, 2015 Report Share Posted January 29, 2015 What are you talking about? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PlaygroundLegend Posted January 29, 2015 Report Share Posted January 29, 2015 You guys are insane... Alleged Rape, Theft, and Disorderly Conduct is somehow worse than NO ARRESTS, Going to Parties, and Being late to a Hamstring Massage? Man... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manzier Posted January 29, 2015 Report Share Posted January 29, 2015 You guys are insane... Alleged Rape, Theft, and Disorderly Conduct is somehow worse than NO ARRESTS, Going to Parties, and Being late to a Hamstring Massage? Man... um...dont you have that backwards? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PlaygroundLegend Posted January 29, 2015 Report Share Posted January 29, 2015 No.. Im saying Im baffled about how people here somehow think Manziel is worse off the field than Winston.. The hate is insane Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bringbackbrownie2 Posted January 29, 2015 Report Share Posted January 29, 2015 No.. Im saying Im baffled about how people here somehow think Manziel is worse off the field than Winston.. The hate is insane Winston's legal baggage may be worse but he appears to care about football. Sure Manziel doesnt appear to be in any legal trouble, but he hasn't shown that he gives a shit about football. So who do you want on the team? A guy with legal issues with upside or a partier that doesn't give a shit about football..? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manzier Posted January 29, 2015 Report Share Posted January 29, 2015 So who do you want on the team? A guy with legal issues with upside or a partier that doesn't give a shit about football..? neither. and thats the main point. who cares which one is the biggest asshole??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexasAg1969 Posted January 29, 2015 Report Share Posted January 29, 2015 There is only one way the hate for JM goes away here and that is for him to take care of business, arrive early, stay late and move this team on offense. Is that possible? Yes. Probable-only JM knows for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westside Steve Posted January 29, 2015 Report Share Posted January 29, 2015 There is only one way the hate for JM goes away here and that is for him to take care of business, arrive early, stay late and move this team on offense. Is that possible? Yes. Probable-only JM knows for sure. I think it will come down to production, not optics. It doesn't matter if you come early and stay late if you suck on Sunday. I'm hoping he and the team are on the same page and everything works out. I would further hope the coaching staff doesn't design an offense tailored for Jim Kelly. WSS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldBrownsFan Posted January 29, 2015 Author Report Share Posted January 29, 2015 There is only one way the hate for JM goes away here and that is for him to take care of business, arrive early, stay late and move this team on offense. Is that possible? Yes. Probable-only JM knows for sure. I don't hate JM but I don't have patience with someone I don't believe is giving the effort they should. I see a QB like Connor Shaw and although I am not sure if he has the arm strength I want to see the Browns go out of their way to help him succeed because of his attitude. I would feel the same way about JM if I saw the same attitude but I don't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldBrownsFan Posted January 29, 2015 Author Report Share Posted January 29, 2015 The Browns are at a crossroads right now where some wise decisions are needed. As has been posted here before they have a lot of talent on this team and a few players in key positions could take this team into the playoffs next year even with playing a tougher schedule. Some of the decisions they are making right now like the hiring of DeFilippo as OC I trust the judgment of Pettine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miktoxic Posted January 29, 2015 Report Share Posted January 29, 2015 No.. Im saying Im baffled about how people here somehow think Manziel is worse off the field than Winston.. The hate is insane the difference is, one is on the browns' roster and the other isn't. if it were winston or any other so-called college great who can't play a lick in the NFL here and making the same mistakes you'd see the same posts albeit with ________ sucks! he keeps Fing up off the field! they should cut ________'s ass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westside Steve Posted January 29, 2015 Report Share Posted January 29, 2015 "F'ing?" C'Mon Mik, you going to charm school or what? WSS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexasAg1969 Posted January 29, 2015 Report Share Posted January 29, 2015 "F'ing?" C'Mon Mik, you going to charm school or what? WSS LOL! Going? Going??!! Mik's teaching the f'n thing and it's paying off for all of us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tour2ma Posted January 31, 2015 Report Share Posted January 31, 2015 Terry Pluto has just put up a nice article on the results of the post season reviews. Here's a bit or two. The whole thing is worth a read. http://www.cleveland.com/pluto/index.ssf/2015/01/terrys_talkin_about_the_clevel_41.html The Browns believe the following: 1. The offense was built on a rugged running game, solid quarterback play and receivers who caught the ball and ran the right patterns. It has to stay that way. They'd love to have an elite quarterback, but that doesn't seem possible. In the AFC North, with cold weather and physical teams, it makes sense for the Browns to keep the run first/defend well philosophy in place. 2. The defense started slowly and was improving. It began to force turnovers and was effective against the passing game. Run defense was a weakness all season. 3. The Browns opened the season with the plan of developing an offense built on the run and play-action passing. And they were going to rely on their defense to make big plays. The Browns know they have to address the run defense, and that starts with the defensive line. But overall, they believe they are building a defense that can compete in the AFC North. The offense remains a problem. I was not able to get a sense of what they plan to do about the quarterback -- other than they have do something. Maybe they aren't clear themselves because the options are so limited. That's part of the reason they have re-opened communications with Brian Hoyer's agent. Here are some other things I'm hearing: 1. They want to add another good offensive lineman, either in the draft or free agency. They want to avoid another huge drop-off as happened when Pro Bowl center Alex Mack broke his leg and the Browns went through three other players unable to find a decent replacement. 2. I doubt they will use a first-round pick on a receiver. They may return to free agency for this season's version of Andrew Hawkins, their free agent pick from 2014. If he's healthy, Miles Austin (lacerated kidney) is likely to be offered a chance to return. 3. They like their young running backs: Terrance West, Isaiah Crowell and Glenn Winston. They believe Winston can be a good back, which is why they kept him on the roster all season. But they may sign a veteran running back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldBrownsFan Posted January 31, 2015 Author Report Share Posted January 31, 2015 That was a good read thanks for posting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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