Browns on Hard Knocks

[The Gipper]

 

 

Houston is a top-10 overall media market. Cleveland is 19th.

 

Houston is a top-10 television market. Cleveland is 17th.

 

Houston is 4th in population. Cleveland is 48th.

 

Cleveland is a little-big city. A city...but not really on the same level. It's like comparing Hoboken and NYC.

You are just going by pure population. (and note....overall regional population isn't that far off). Not that long ago....as in when I was growing up, those rankings were reversed. Cleveland has both heavy rail and light rail transportation to get their people around. I don't think Houston does. Cleveland has world class orchestras, art museums, medical facilities, and other attractions and industry...etc. etc. etc. etc. Houston has some of that, but it does not have the history, culture that Cleveland has. Sure, it has a lot of shitkickers and goatropers.....but hell, one of the best things about Houston....Gilley's isn't even there anymore.

[The Gipper]

 

I would expect the Browns to be more historical than a team that just became a teenager.

 

The Oilers...it's a little closer.

 

As for culture...Houston is the one of the few cities left with an active ballet and opera and symphony and theatre.

Cleveland, I believe, did lose its opera to the recent recession. There is an active ballet:

http://www.clevelandballet.org/

 

And I don't need to tell you about the quality of the Cleveland Orchestra...probably one of the 5 best worldwide....and Playhouse Square:

"Playhouse Square, is the Cleveland Theater District in downtown Cleveland, Ohio,^[2] the largest performing arts center in the United States outside of New York. (Only Lincoln Center inNew York City is larger.)^[3] Constructed in a span of 19 months in the early 1920s, the theaters were subsequently closed down, but were revived through a grassroots effort. Their renovation and reopening helped usher in a new era of downtown revitalization in Cleveland, and was called "one of the top ten successes in Cleveland history"

 

This doesn't even count the Cleveland Playhouse, which isn't in Playhouse Square.

 

"Seven American orchestras were numbered among the world's top twenty in a 2008 critics' poll by Gramophone. They were, in rank order, the Chicago Symphony Orchestra (5th), the Cleveland Orchestra (7th), the Los Angeles Philharmonic (8th), the Boston Symphony Orchestra (11th), the New York Philharmonic (12th), the San Francisco Symphony (13th), and the Metropolitan Opera Orchestra (New York City) (18th).^[18]"

[Tour2ma]

Despite Houston being a larger city, population wise than Cleveland, it is really no more of a "Big City". Cleveland has big city infrastructure, amenities, culture which Houston may only be catching up on.

 

I am not sure that is how you meant that comment....but that is how I ran with it.

Size... Houston is huge... Cleveland is not.

 

Cleveland might not be as big as Houston but the fans are 10 times as passionate and the Browns are more historical than the Texans.

That's what you say today...

 

I've lived in LA, NYC, DC, Yokohama/Tokyo. Bigger sucks in my opinion. Give me less traffic and cheaper cost of living any day.

Amen to the traffic... Moved from Houston to a place where I can find a traffic jam if I look in the right place at the right time of day... and if you consider a "traffic jam" to include an intersection where it takes you two cycles to make it through.

 

Cost wise though Houston was far cheaper... and Lord... how I do miss its restaurants. Great city for foodies...

[wargograw]

I wouldn't necessarily look to the rejection of liberal pipe dreams like light rail as a knock on a city's establishment as "big."

[hoorta]

 

 

Houston is a top-10 overall media market. Cleveland is 19th.

 

Houston is a top-10 television market. Cleveland is 17th.

 

Houston is 4th in population. Cleveland is 48th.

 

Cleveland is a little-big city. A city...but not really on the same level. It's like comparing Hoboken and NYC.

 

Well, had to look it up- and you're right. Houston metro area is #5, Cleveland #29.

[The Gipper]

Size... Houston is huge... Cleveland is not.

Houston's combined statistical area is ranked 9th nationwide, Cleveland's 15th

Houston is an overgrown mess.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combined_Statistical_Are

 

 

[The Gipper]

 

Well, had to look it up- and you're right. Houston metro area is #5, Cleveland #29.

Not sure where you got those numbers. See my post above.

 

I agree though that back in the late 70s early 80s people thought Houston was going to become like the "new LA".

That never happened. Not too many people around think Houston is all that cool of a place to live.

Even in Texas...where my daughter lives. Of the major cities there, most would put Houston at best #3 behind Dallas and San Antonio in terms of desirability. Maybe even #4 behind Austin....in fact, no doubt as far as desirability it is behind those others.

Nationally...at least in my estimation both Houston and Dallas are way, way down the list of "desirable large cities". San Antone is way up.

[DieHardBrownsFan]

Austin is supposed to be a nice place to retire. I've been thinking about Corpus Christi in year or two.

[LondonBrown]

All I know is my trip to Cleveland was awesome. Sports nuts beer nuts and a guy gave me some Molly at 10am on game day.

 

WIN WIN WIN.

[Westside Steve]

The construction boom combined with a weak national economy made Houston and attractive destination for semi or low skill workers. it seemed there was always a job as a laborer somewhere there. unlike Dallas which became a mecca for businesses and executives, Houston became A haven for transient workers.

 

WSS

[The Gipper]

Austin is supposed to be a nice place to retire. I've been thinking about Corpus Christi in year or two.

Austin's traffic is now terrible. Worse than San Antonio. Austin has really grown too quickly for its breeches.

Twenty years ago it was a super cool...mid size college town. Now it too is becoming a mess. Probably not as bad as Houston. The area around Austin is much more interesting. Houston is basically a flat swamp.

[The Gipper]

The construction boom combined with a weak national economy made Houston and attractive destination for semi or low skill workers. it seemed there was always a job as a laborer somewhere there. unlike Dallas which became a mecca for businesses and executives, Houston became A haven for transient workers.

 

WSS

That is true. I know that there were a few HS classmates of ours who fit that same bill. (did not go to college....went from school to work in a factory....jobs dried up here, they went to Houston)..think Sammy Tanner.

Of course, when the jobs dried up down there, they came back here to try to find work.

[Tour2ma]

Gip,

Why do you feel the need to act like you know Texas?

[The Gipper]

I wouldn't necessarily look to the rejection of liberal pipe dreams like light rail as a knock on a city's establishment as "big."

Then you can fucking walk to work.

[The Gipper]

Gip,

Why do you feel the need to act like you know Texas?

Its not a matter of knowing Texas, it is a matter of knowing what I like about a destination. There are parts of Texas I both like and don't care for as much. Except for a few things, both Houston and Dallas were completely bland in my opinion. San Antonio and Austin (if you eliminate the traffic) were not....they were very interesting. El Paso was, I don't know....a little too "third world" for my taste....though it had its attributes. I have been to Laredo/Brownsville/Corpus Christie, Waco, Big Bend. I am actually hoping to see some parts of Texas I have not been to....Amarillo, Lubbock, Odessa/Midland, the Panhandle.

Hell, I may have seen more of Texas than you have in my travels. I have even been to Atlanta, Buffalo, Jacksonville....Texas.

 

Beyond that, if you were not paying attention, my daughter lives there (SA), my brother used to live there (Kerrville...except he left before JMZ was born), my sister in law lives there. I have pretty wide knowledge of the state.

[Tour2ma]

Trust me... You haven't seen more and you don't know Texas.

[The Gipper]

Trust me... You haven't seen more and you don't know Texas.

Well, you know what Reagan said....trust, but verify.

 

Now verify how much of Texas you have seen.

....and like I said....it is not a matter of knowing it all that well, but of knowing what you like of what you have seen.

I have seen parts I don't care much for: Dallas/Houston....and a lot of parts I do: The Hill country (SA/Austin and beyond), and some of the western mountainous parts....Big Bend/Guadalupe.

 

(and honestly...overall I don't think it is that likeable of a state compared to others I have spent time in...but I probably will be having 2 trips there in about the next year....one this fall, one next May for graduation)

[The Gipper]

And tell me this if you know Tejas so well....I am thinking of taking a Texas road trip in November.....as I will probably be staying in SA for 2-3 days for a football game. From there I am thinking of driving up to Abilene, then to Wichita Falls, then up into OK for a stop, then back over to Lake Meredith, then to Amarillo and Lubbock, down to Odess/Midland/San Angelo before heading back to SA.

What recommendations/suggestions do you have?

[Tim Couch Pulls Out]

Its not a matter of knowing Texas, it is a matter of knowing what I like about a destination. There are parts of Texas I both like and don't care for as much. Except for a few things, both Houston and Dallas were completely bland in my opinion. San Antonio and Austin (if you eliminate the traffic) were not....they were very interesting. El Paso was, I don't know....a little too "third world" for my taste....though it had its attributes. I have been to Laredo/Brownsville/Corpus Christie, Waco, Big Bend. I am actually hoping to see some parts of Texas I have not been to....Amarillo, Lubbock, Odessa/Midland, the Panhandle.

Hell, I may have seen more of Texas than you have in my travels. I have even been to Atlanta, Buffalo, Jacksonville....Texas.

 

Beyond that, if you were not paying attention, my daughter lives there (SA), my brother used to live there (Kerrville...except he left before JMZ was born), my sister in law lives there. I have pretty wide knowledge of the state.

 

It doesn't matter what you like. We get it, you think Cleveland is the greatest city in the world. It's very apparent. However, to the rest of the world, Cleveland isn't as desirable.

You're throwing out personal opinions like they are some sort of fact.

"Not too many people around think Houston is all that cool of a place to live." "Of the major cities there, most would put Houston at best #3 behind Dallas and San Antonio in terms of desirability" "both Houston and Dallas were completely bland in my opinion."

 

 

That's cool that you don't like Houston. Completely acceptable that you have an opinion.

 

However, Houston IS (much) bigger than Cleveland. Houston IS a (much) bigger media market than Cleveland. Houston was the first city to regain all (and more) of the jobs that it lost during the recession and it IS now the #1 job creating city in America. Houston DOES have the highest percentage of young, college educated kids moving to the city. Houston IS one of the leading cities in America in the energy sector. Houston DOES have the highest average pay in the country (adjusted for cost of living). Houston IS regarded as having some of the finest cuisine in the nation. Houston DID make this list of the top 15 cities for 2015 (Cleveland did not). Houston DID make this list for top 20 coolest cities in 2014 (Cleveland did not). Houston IS America's fastest growing city.

 

None of those are opinions. Those are facts. Houston blows Cleveland out of the water when it comes to size and desirability.

 

 

But Cleveland has a light rail.

[The Gipper]

 

It doesn't matter what you like. We get it, you think Cleveland is the greatest city in the world. It's very apparent. However, to the rest of the world, Cleveland isn't as desirable.

You're throwing out personal opinions like they are some sort of fact.

 

I don't think so....I said, basically that Houston is bland...that is does not have that much to attract me to it. I guess it IS a FACT that that is my opinion...if facts is what you want.

That's cool that you don't like Houston. Completely acceptable that you have an opinion.

 

However, Houston IS (much) bigger than Cleveland. Houston IS a (much) bigger media market than Cleveland. Houston was the first city to regain all (and more) of the jobs that it lost during the recession and it IS now the #1 job creating city in America. Houston DOES have the highest percentage of young, college educated kids moving to the city. Houston IS one of the leading cities in America in the energy sector. Houston DOES have the highest average pay in the country (adjusted for cost of living). Houston IS regarded as having some of the finest cuisine in the nation. Houston DID make this list of the top 15 cities for 2015 (Cleveland did not). Houston DID make this list for top 20 coolest cities in 2014 (Cleveland did not). Houston IS America's fastest growing city.

 

It has a lot of people and is getting bigger and it is keeping its job.

Beyond the fact tht it has some good restaurants.....what is it about that that is supposed to attract me to it?

Do you think I need to go there to get a job?

Perhaps my daughter needs to know all that...she will be looking for a job in Texas when she graduates.

It is by no means the coolest city....it is hot swampy and muggy there.

Anyone can make a list.....My Gipper's list is every bit as authoritative as anything you have links to. I have a thread of that nature in the Barber Shop. Maybe I can post a link to it.....and be considered an expert in the area.

In fact...I AM an expert. I have been to every state...48 of them twice or more over (Alaska/S.Dak.).....and of the 125 largest cities in these United States I have been to all but 4 of them: Lubbock, Boise, Spokane, and Amarillo. And if you note I want to try to visit Lubbock and Amarillo this year....in order to increase my knowlege.

None of those are opinions. Those are facts. Houston blows Cleveland out of the water when it comes to size and desirability.

Size, yes, desirability....no. Depends on what you desire. But those lists of what is cool ARE opinions.

 

 

But Cleveland has a light rail.

Which is, in fact, a factor that makes a city desirable. Anyone I know makes ease of transportation a factor in what they like. How big of a factor is a matter of personal opinion...but it is a factor.

Edit....another question.....how did you become the self appointed defender of Houston Texas. Don't you live in like Charlotte or somewhere?

[The Gipper]

Here is one link:

 

http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=11040

[miktoxic]

texas blows...................tumbleweeds.

[Tim Couch Pulls Out]

The point is I'm trying to make is...who cares what YOU think. You think Houston is bland and boring and undesirable. Cool, but it doesn't change that a majority of people disagree and that's why Houston is the fastest growing city in America. So it clearly is desirable. I'm sure there's a person out there who believes that East Cowshit County, Alabama is the best place to live in the entire galaxy. Is that a truth for him? Sure. But it doesn't make it true for the population.

 

Anyone can make a list, you're right. Anyone can do anything. However, the majority of people place more faith in things done or created by experts and professionals than the things done or created by Joe Blow from Kalamazoo. That's why billions of people watch the NFL yet nobody gives a shit about that pickup football game in the park- it's a matter of professionals over amateurs.

 

If you desire a city that pales in comparison to Houston in basically every livability metric imaginable, then yes...I guess Cleveland is the more desirable city. However, in terms of crime, job rate, housing, culture and essentially every single metric used by market economists, Cleveland doesn't hold a candle to Houston.

 

I'm the self-appointed defender of logic. When I see things that are illogical, I argue the counterpoint. Unless, of course, I'm the one posing the illogical statements....like my stupid trades or my overhyping of practice squad players like James Davis, Carlton Mitchell and Charles Johnson.

 

Yes, I live in Charlotte...and that's why I can have an unbiased opinion on this matter. Because neither city compares to Charlotte...who is expected to be the fastest growing city in the world over the next 15 years (according to the United Nations World Urbanization Report).

[wargograw]

Then you can fucking walk to work.

Or I can take my own car, like a normal non-welfare individual. The fact that you think those two were the only options makes me question all your opinions on this thread.

 

Austin is a liberal haven and even we don't have full light rail.

[wargograw]

Austin's traffic is now terrible. Worse than San Antonio. Austin has really grown too quickly for its breeches.

Twenty years ago it was a super cool...mid size college town. Now it too is becoming a mess. Probably not as bad as Houston. The area around Austin is much more interesting. Houston is basically a flat swamp.

Houston has traffic but it will move 60+ even during rush hour. Everything flows. Austin traffic is that open the door and see gum clearly on a major highway kinda traffic. It's bad.

 

Also, Austin is the most "desirable" city in Texas. But for my money, it's the most overrated city I can think of. Dallas is the coolest city in Texas (outside of College Station of course). NO ONE without Mexican background likes San Antonio. Not more than Houston. Not more than Dallas. Certainly not more than Austin. San Antonio blows.

 

And yes austin did grow too quickly. The dumbass city administrators basically believed "if we don't build it, they won't come." Been a complete failure so far.

[The Gipper]

The point is I'm trying to make is...who cares what YOU think.

More people than care what you think...because I do the travel thing as an avocation.

 

You think Houston is bland and boring and undesirable. Cool, but it doesn't change that a majority of people disagree and that's why Houston is the fastest growing city in America. So it clearly is desirable. I'm sure there's a person out there who believes that East Cowshit County, Alabama is the best place to live in the entire galaxy. Is that a truth for him? Sure. But it doesn't make it true for the population.

Money is what makes Houston "desirable". If you call working in the refineries and living in a mobile home desirable.

That does not put it at the top of many 'best travel destinations" list.

 

Anyone can make a list, you're right. Anyone can do anything. However, the majority of people place more faith in things done or created by experts and professionals than the things done or created by Joe Blow from Kalamazoo.

Well, as I said....I AM an Expert.

 

That's why billions of people watch the NFL yet nobody gives a shit about that pickup football game in the park- it's a matter of professionals over amateurs.

 

If you desire a city that pales in comparison to Houston in basically every livability metric imaginable, then yes...I guess Cleveland is the more desirable city. However, in terms of crime, job rate, housing, culture and essentially every single metric used by market economists, Cleveland doesn't hold a candle to Houston.

I would have to analyze that one.

The last one of those I did analyze said that San Diego was more livable than Cleveland...and it gave some of the same factors you note: crime, unemployment, congestion, cost of living, even success of sports teams. In 11 categories, Cleveland came out better.....the only one San Diego was better than Cleveland? Winter weather......and because of that it gave SD the overall edge. (their conclusions totally ignored their own findings on those things.) So, I don't know about Houston and how it would compare. You would need to show that data....as from experience I have to be skeptical

 

I'm the self-appointed defender of logic. When I see things that are illogical, I argue the counterpoint. Unless, of course, I'm the one posing the illogical statements....like my stupid trades or my overhyping of practice squad players like James Davis, Carlton Mitchell and Charles Johnson.

Well, I don't think I ever said that I applied logic to this Houston thing. I was not really applying living standard metrics. I was simply saying that from my observations and experience Houston had little to attract me as a travel destination. It seemed to have new tall buildings....but nothing that stood out architecturally. I am sure that it has the museums/orchestras/zoos/botanical gardens etc.that all big cities have.

The one thing I did get to was the San Jacinto Battle Monument. Of course, being Texas, they felt compelled to build it a few feet taller than the Washington Monument (575 vs. 555 ft.).

A couple of things I did not get to that I may have liked to see were the NASA Space Center and the Astrodome.

But, overall, it rates low on my list of interesting cities. The likes of San Diego/San Fran/Seattle/Portland/Denver/SA/Boston/Phlly/NYC/Chicago/Miami...and many others (even Charlotte) come out ahead on my list than Houston does.

 

Yes, I live in Charlotte...and that's why I can have an unbiased opinion on this matter. Because neither city compares to Charlotte...who is expected to be the fastest growing city in the world over the next 15 years (according to the United Nations World Urbanization Report).

Things change. They said similar things about Cleveland in 1965. But, sure, Charlotte is OK.

[The Gipper]

Or I can take my own car, like a normal non-welfare individual. The fact that you think those two were the only options makes me question all your opinions on this thread.

 

Austin is a liberal haven and even we don't have full light rail.

WTF does "liberal" or conservative have to do with it. Are you some right wing paranoid-schizophrenic that sees "liberals" jumping out at you from every bush telling you to give them your money?

Jesus, get help.....maybe even from Jesus.

[wargograw]

That can't be a serious question. Liberals get off to light rail. Conservatives rightly view ownership of the car as one of the most American things you can do. They view light rail as a general massive waste of money. It's pretty simple.

 

"WTF does liberal or conservative have to do with it." Lol

[The Gipper]

Houston has traffic but it will move 60+ even during rush hour. Everything flows. Austin traffic is that open the door and see gum clearly on a major highway kinda traffic. It's bad.

 

Also, Austin is the most "desirable" city in Texas. But for my money, it's the most overrated city I can think of. Dallas is the coolest city in Texas (outside of College Station of course). NO ONE without Mexican background likes San Antonio. Not more than Houston. Not more than Dallas. Certainly not more than Austin. San Antonio blows.

Well, I don't believe that....my family doesn't believe that, and none of us have Mexican backgrounds. We are White GaelicSaxon Lapsed Catholic Lutherans. But, I will tell you the truth...though my daughter may want to settle there, I do not want to retire there....even though my wife may want that.

 

And yes austin did grow too quickly. The dumbass city administrators basically believed "if we don't build it, they won't come." Been a complete failure so far.

I-35 is awful...but when you get into the circular bypasses the traffic seems to flow OK.

[wargograw]

You guys are the exception. No one likes SA. Hell, even Charles Barkley made fun of SA women.