Crabtree at #4

[Sez.EJ]

Sorry.. I meant at #5.. my fingers are not cooperating..

 

Crabtree at #5 is looking a whole lot different to us right now with Donte going to be officially out of football forever real soon. I don't want to rush to judgment..but 1.4.blood alch. level... his football days are over.. Crabree may be the way to go now.. I have not really belived andy of LB's or DL guys were worthy of the #5 spot anyway.. I believe crabtree is.. The guy can flat out play..

[Browns2405]

I wouldn't mind it. The kid is a baller and god knows we are going to need help at WR with the crapshoot we got going on now. Donte is probably out of the league and who knows what the hell will happen with Braylon. That leaves us with who? Steptoe and Hubbard... yea I'd take crabtree. Plus who knows how many more picks we can get by trading w/e QB we decide to and possibly Rogers if he keeps acting like a tool b/c Mangini didn't say hi. I hear a lot about lb's and de's being deep in this draft so I'd be open for this if we keep adding picks by trading more players.

[585Dawg]

I wasn't opposed to this pick even before the stallworth incident...

[YtownBrownsBacker]

When you are picking #5 you need to get a difference maker. You have to come away with an impact player. Crabtree is a difference maker. He is an impact player.

 

You can't take a #5 pick and spend it on a DE you need to convert to OLB.

[Legacy Fan]

Wait... what happened to Stallworth?

 

*ahem*

[Guest Aloysius]

When you are picking #5 you need to get a difference maker. You have to come away with an impact player. Crabtree is a difference maker. He is an impact player.

 

You can't take a #5 pick and spend it on a DE you need to convert to OLB.

I'm all for taking Crabtree, but I don't think the argument based on position holds water. The same argument could have been made in '05 to justify taking BE over DeMarcus Ware, something that most of us now think was a mistake.

 

It's more about Crabtree being a better, less risky receiving prospect than Orakpo is at rush linebacker. But if Crabtree is already off the board at #5, I don't think you pass up on Orakpo simply because he'd play 3-4 OLB for us.

[Browns2405]

I'm all for taking Crabtree, but I don't think the argument based on position holds water. The same argument could have been made in '05 to justify taking BE over DeMarcus Ware, something that most of us now think was a mistake.

 

It's more about Crabtree being a better, less risky receiving prospect than Orakpo is at rush linebacker. But if Crabtree is already off the board at #5, I don't think you pass up on Orakpo simply because he'd play 3-4 OLB for us.

 

 

well played sir...

[Mr. T]

Maybe he can change his name after alcohol rehab like Joey Belle did

[Oldcrow1945]

There are just too many worries for me with taking Crabtree. I know many of you don't like looking at past players and comparing them to a guy coming out now, but I can't help but think of WR's that have been 1st round picks the last 5 or 6 years...I think 7 or 8 of these were top ten picks. Not many game changers in this goup.

 

Mike Williams, Braylon Edwards, Michael Jenkins, Andre Johnson, Lee Evans, Bryant Johnson, Charles Rogers,

Reggie Williams, Larry Fitzgerald, Dwayne Bowe, Calvin Johnson, Ted Ginn, Robert Meachum,Santonio Holmes, Craig Davis, Anthony Gonzalaz, Matt Jones, Mark Clayton, Roddy White, Reshaun Woods, Michael Clayton.

 

21 first round picks there. The jury is still out on a few. But of this group right now you may have 2 or 3 game changers? Maybe only 1 real game changer in Fitzgerald.

Maybe Crabtree would be different. But I'm an odds guy and the odds don't seem to be good when going WR in round one.

 

Boy, a trade down would be great but it probably won't happen.

[heckofajobbrownie]

The other thing to consider is that Seattle may still be taking Crabtree at #4. Everyone seems to have forgotten that TJ Housh is going to be 32 next season, and they've got a bunch of castoffs after that.

 

As bad as our WR situation is, Seattle's is equally bad, and that's with TJ.

 

So I think Orapko is probably going to be the guy there if Crabtree isn't available, or even if he is. The other choices would have to be Raji, and maybe Maualuga. I can't think of going in another direction other than those four unless you're able to get out of the pick.

[Oldcrow1945]

So I think Orapko is probably going to be the guy there if Crabtree isn't available, or even if he is. The other choices would have to be Raji, and maybe Maualuga. I can't think of going in another direction other than those four unless you're able to get out of the pick.

 

I think you are exactly right. Everything really points to two guys. Anything else would be considered a big reach.

I like Raji but I imagine they'll think he's not a 3-4 DE and Rey may be just too big of a stretch for the Browns front office.

Plus he didn't have a good combine at all.

 

[JewDago]

The other thing to consider is that Seattle may still be taking Crabtree at #4. Everyone seems to have forgotten that TJ Housh is going to be 32 next season, and they've got a bunch of castoffs after that.

 

As bad as our WR situation is, Seattle's is equally bad, and that's with TJ.

 

So I think Orapko is probably going to be the guy there if Crabtree isn't available, or even if he is. The other choices would have to be Raji, and maybe Maualuga. I can't think of going in another direction other than those four unless you're able to get out of the pick.

the other thing is that WR is really the last link in the offensive chain, and without a QB that mankok has faith in or a RB to carry the load, a WR isn't the most useful player.

[heckofajobbrownie]

We've got to get Quinn someone to throw to. Got to.

 

Right now it's Edwards, Cribbs, Rucker, and guys who've never mattered like Steptoe and Hubbard. That's pretty weak tea.

 

Then you've got to factor in that most rookie WRs take a year or two to adjust to the pro game. So I'd say we need a vet and a rookie added. The rookie now - Crabtree - and the vet later after cap and camp cutdowns.

 

Think Mike McKenzie, but a WR.

[Guest AdaM]

There are just too many worries for me with taking Crabtree. I know many of you don't like looking at past players and comparing them to a guy coming out now, but I can't help but think of WR's that have been 1st round picks the last 5 or 6 years...I think 7 or 8 of these were top ten picks. Not many game changers in this goup.

 

Mike Williams, Braylon Edwards, Michael Jenkins, Andre Johnson, Lee Evans, Bryant Johnson, Charles Rogers,

Reggie Williams, Larry Fitzgerald, Dwayne Bowe, Calvin Johnson, Ted Ginn, Robert Meachum,Santonio Holmes, Craig Davis, Anthony Gonzalaz, Matt Jones, Mark Clayton, Roddy White, Reshaun Woods, Michael Clayton.

 

21 first round picks there. The jury is still out on a few. But of this group right now you may have 2 or 3 game changers? Maybe only 1 real game changer in Fitzgerald.

Maybe Crabtree would be different. But I'm an odds guy and the odds don't seem to be good when going WR in round one.

 

Boy, a trade down would be great but it probably won't happen.

 

 

Andre Johnson isn't a game changer?

 

I seem to remember Santonio Holmes changing a few games this year too, namely the SUPERBOWL.

 

 

[hammertime]

As you see, things can change in the blink of an eye. This is why nobody tips there hand until draft day. I would expect being a browns fan for a few more 'unexpected' twists before draft day, hence changing your pick all over again.

Put yourself in the mindset of what would NE do, or what would Pittsburg do or any stable, established FO. You have to think like a winner to be a winner.

Just sayin.

[YtownBrownsBacker]

I'm all for taking Crabtree, but I don't think the argument based on position holds water. The same argument could have been made in '05 to justify taking BE over DeMarcus Ware, something that most of us now think was a mistake.

 

It's more about Crabtree being a better, less risky receiving prospect than Orakpo is at rush linebacker. But if Crabtree is already off the board at #5, I don't think you pass up on Orakpo simply because he'd play 3-4 OLB for us.

 

First I try to trade down before I do anything. Then, I would take the best player available. Personally, even if Crabtree is gone it wouldn't be orakpo. Too many ifs to chance a #5 on him. I'm talking injury and performance ifs, not changing from DE to OLB ifs.

[YtownBrownsBacker]

the other thing is that WR is really the last link in the offensive chain, and without a QB that mankok has faith in or a RB to carry the load, a WR isn't the most useful player.

 

What would make you think Mangini doesn't have a QB he has faith in? You are reading too many dumb trade posts on here. The media here can't stand that there is no information coming out of Berea so we get BS speculation that comes from some forum from another city.

 

Maybe a clue here is the fact that Quinn has been in Berea for months and has been working with Dabol and the QB coach a few times every week. And, that isn't speculation, he told our group that personally when we met him at the Kelly Pavlik fight in Youngstown in Feb. He had a lot of good things to say about Dabol, his approach to what they will be doing on offense and what he has gone over in the play book.

 

So, when talking about anybodies "KOK" you should have some basis to justify making your statement.

 

Also, I believe you have been on here blowing Harrison's horn and hoping we draft Jennings. We have started to fix the offensive line to help the running game, so what would be the problem with the running game.

 

The last link on the chain? What is that all about. You are saying that every other position of offense is more important then WR.

 

 

[ballpeen]

When you are picking #5 you need to get a difference maker. You have to come away with an impact player. Crabtree is a difference maker. He is an impact player.

 

You can't take a #5 pick and spend it on a DE you need to convert to OLB.

 

 

 

I agree with that.

 

Not so much on Crabtree as in pimping the guy.....but we can't be looking at a project.

 

There will be 2-3 legit players.....Crabtree included....who could be selected and would have immediate impact without running some experiment.

[YtownBrownsBacker]

There are just too many worries for me with taking Crabtree. I know many of you don't like looking at past players and comparing them to a guy coming out now, but I can't help but think of WR's that have been 1st round picks the last 5 or 6 years...I think 7 or 8 of these were top ten picks. Not many game changers in this goup.

 

Mike Williams, Braylon Edwards, Michael Jenkins, Andre Johnson, Lee Evans, Bryant Johnson, Charles Rogers,

Reggie Williams, Larry Fitzgerald, Dwayne Bowe, Calvin Johnson, Ted Ginn, Robert Meachum,Santonio Holmes, Craig Davis, Anthony Gonzalaz, Matt Jones, Mark Clayton, Roddy White, Reshaun Woods, Michael Clayton.

 

21 first round picks there. The jury is still out on a few. But of this group right now you may have 2 or 3 game changers? Maybe only 1 real game changer in Fitzgerald.

Maybe Crabtree would be different. But I'm an odds guy and the odds don't seem to be good when going WR in round one.

 

Boy, a trade down would be great but it probably won't happen.

 

Let's don't say first round picks because there is a big difference between a guy being picked at #5 and a guy being picked at #30. Look at top of the draft picks and I see some receivers that are leading their teams and have been to the pro bowl.

 

Now you should post all the top of the draft Wimbley's that have been impact players as a comparison. Most of your 3-4 impact OLBs are middle or bottom of the round picks, including Ware and Merriman.

 

[YtownBrownsBacker]

I agree with that.

 

Not so much on Crabtree as in pimping the guy.....but we can't be looking at a project.

 

There will be 2-3 legit players.....Crabtree included....who could be selected and would have immediate impact without running some experiment.

 

Yes, I'm not just saying Crabtree, I'm saying take the best player available that is reasonable, considering needs. I wouldn't take a QB that was going to sit for a year. I just don't see Orakpo as that impact guy. The guy a team would have to scheme for when they play us. That's what I mean by game changer and impact player.

 

You would have to change your defensive scheme up when playing the Browns if you had Edwards and Crabtree spread wide. You couldn't play eight in the box and you would have to cover our TE with a LB. Harrison or even Cribbs coming out of the backfield would get single coverage by a LB usually.

 

That's a game changer.

 

There is value to be had, close to Orakpo, at the top of the second round that could have the same impact.

 

Now, let me qualify this by saying I am for trading down because of the value picks I see between 20 and 60 and the needs we have. I am only saying Crabtree over Orakpo if we are forced to stay at #5.

[ClevelandFanForLife]

i said this last week: every year there are two or three good receivers. we don't need to use a number 5 overall pick on a guy coming off of surgery. with jj gone and stallworth all but in jail, we will just need to use edwards, steptoe and cribbs this season. if we trade braylon then that changes everything. depending on what we get for him, for example a second round pick, i would take crabtree because our number 1 would be steptoe. this would be terrible considering steptoe is barely a number 3 receiver.

[YtownBrownsBacker]

i said this last week: every year there are two or three good receivers. we don't need to use a number 5 overall pick on a guy coming off of surgery. with jj gone and stallworth all but in jail, we will just need to use edwards, steptoe and cribbs this season. if we trade braylon then that changes everything. depending on what we get for him, for example a second round pick, i would take crabtree because our number 1 would be steptoe. this would be terrible considering steptoe is barely a number 3 receiver.

 

If you would take Crabtree if Edwards was gone, why wouldn't you take him if he was here.

 

Who would be a bigger difference maker or impact player then Crabtree? Who would be a safer pick then Crabtree?

 

When Edwards came out they knew he had problems with drops but loved his upside because he made the spectacular catches. Know they know Crabtree catches everything in the same zip code, gets good separation and isn't afraid to go over the middle and make the tough catches. How could you find a better compliment to Edwards? Isn't this the type of guy you would want if Edwards bolts next year?

 

Can you expect to score enough points to win a game if you trot out Edwards with Steptoe and Heiden or even Cribbs? If you don't take Crabtree then who do you pick? Defense? How much better a defense would you have if you lined up Orakpo compared to Barwin or English or Sintim? Would Orakpo make the defense better then Crabtree would make the offense?

 

Steptoe isn't even a good #3 receiver. He can't get separation in single coverage. Crabtree and Edwards would both require double coverage which opens up a multitude of things the offense could then do. I don't think a team would have to change their game plan if Orakpo was at OLB. He's not that good playing the run and we don't know what he would give us as in coverage.

[ClevelandFanForLife]

If you would take Crabtree if Edwards was gone, why wouldn't you take him if he was here.

 

Who would be a bigger difference maker or impact player then Crabtree? Who would be a safer pick then Crabtree?

 

When Edwards came out they knew he had problems with drops but loved his upside because he made the spectacular catches. Know they know Crabtree catches everything in the same zip code, gets good separation and isn't afraid to go over the middle and make the tough catches. How could you find a better compliment to Edwards? Isn't this the type of guy you would want if Edwards bolts next year?

 

Can you expect to score enough points to win a game if you trot out Edwards with Steptoe and Heiden or even Cribbs? If you don't take Crabtree then who do you pick? Defense? How much better a defense would you have if you lined up Orakpo compared to Barwin or English or Sintim? Would Orakpo make the defense better then Crabtree would make the offense?

 

Steptoe isn't even a good #3 receiver. He can't get separation in single coverage. Crabtree and Edwards would both require double coverage which opens up a multitude of things the offense could then do. I don't think a team would have to change their game plan if Orakpo was at OLB. He's not that good playing the run and we don't know what he would give us as in coverage.

because as of right now, another number one receiver is not of extreme need. having two number one wr's is very good to have but we need defense like crazy right now. it doesn't matter how great a team's offense is, without a defense you won't win. arizona is a perfect case. they have two of the best wr's in the game and their defense is what lost them the superbowl because they couldn't stop the steelers.

[ballpeen]

If you would take Crabtree if Edwards was gone, why wouldn't you take him if he was here.

 

 

I understood where you were coming from on mentioning Crabtree .....as an example.

 

 

The above question is an excellent one that people just don't seem to understand.

 

The draft isn't "just" about needs. In the larger picture is is about stocking the roster with as many "cream" players as you can.

 

When you have the opportunity to add a cream player, you do so....forget the friggen needs, because needs are fleeting...they change year to year. Cream players are scarce. You don't pass on them when you have the chance.

 

Teams that do are the teams that usually suck.

 

It's easy to get in the firefighting mode, but sooner or later you need to find out what is causing the fires or you are never going to get ahead.

[BernietheKid]

If you would take Crabtree if Edwards was gone, why wouldn't you take him if he was here.

 

Who would be a bigger difference maker or impact player then Crabtree? Who would be a safer pick then Crabtree?

 

When Edwards came out they knew he had problems with drops but loved his upside because he made the spectacular catches. Know they know Crabtree catches everything in the same zip code, gets good separation and isn't afraid to go over the middle and make the tough catches. How could you find a better compliment to Edwards? Isn't this the type of guy you would want if Edwards bolts next year?

 

Can you expect to score enough points to win a game if you trot out Edwards with Steptoe and Heiden or even Cribbs? If you don't take Crabtree then who do you pick? Defense? How much better a defense would you have if you lined up Orakpo compared to Barwin or English or Sintim? Would Orakpo make the defense better then Crabtree would make the offense?

 

Steptoe isn't even a good #3 receiver. He can't get separation in single coverage. Crabtree and Edwards would both require double coverage which opens up a multitude of things the offense could then do. I don't think a team would have to change their game plan if Orakpo was at OLB. He's not that good playing the run and we don't know what he would give us as in coverage.

 

I totally agree with you Y-Town. I think there is only two players I would take with the fifth pick and that's Curry and Crabtree.

 

I would try to trade down first but if I had to pick it would be one of those two.

 

JMHO is you could get an OLB just as good as Orakpo in the second round or later in the first round if you trade down.

 

I don't think he is that special and I don't think there is that much different in talent between him and the other prospects.

[YtownBrownsBacker]

I totally agree with you Y-Town. I think there is only two players I would take with the fifth pick and that's Curry and Crabtree.

 

I would try to trade down first but if I had to pick it would be one of those two.

 

JMHO is you could get an OLB just as good as Orakpo in the second round or later in the first round if you trade down.

 

I don't think he is that special and I don't think there is that much different in talent between him and the other prospects.

 

Exactly, that's the point I'm trying to make. It's not that OLB isn't needed, it is that there are value picks at that position in round 2. Crabtree's are special and don't come along every year. We pulled the string on Edwards and knew he wasn't that extra special type player. He was just a very good prospect that had a history of dropping easy passes.

[Sez.EJ]

i said this last week: every year there are two or three good receivers. we don't need to use a number 5 overall pick on a guy coming off of surgery. with jj gone and stallworth all but in jail, we will just need to use edwards, steptoe and cribbs this season. if we trade braylon then that changes everything. depending on what we get for him, for example a second round pick, i would take crabtree because our number 1 would be steptoe. this would be terrible considering steptoe is barely a number 3 receiver.

Steptoe is worthless and cannot run a route, cannot get off the line of scrimmage, can't get open and is lucky to catch the ball if he is open , Cribbs is a special teamer( a great special teamer) who can't get on the field as a wide out consistantly.

 

THIS ??.. THIS is what you would choose to roll with this year?? Absolutely absurd... Not only is this NEVER going to happen. The new regime should be fired if that ever even came out of thier mouths... Fortunately..they know that what you propose cannot win games.

 

Steptoe had a whopping 19 catches. I cannot believe this guy actually STARTED in 5 games last year.. OH, Zero TD's.. and CRIBBS???? 2 catches all last year. your going to roll with Edwards and these 2 guys who combined for 21 catches..

 

Clevelandfanforlife: your fired.

[ballpeen]

I agree.

 

I don't think we can count of Sreptoe for much other than kick duties and possibly some slot work in special situations, and as much as Cribbs has show, he hasn't shown he can be a legit NFL receiver.

[Flugel]

Sorry.. I meant at #5.. my fingers are not cooperating..

 

Crabtree at #5 is looking a whole lot different to us right now with Donte going to be officially out of football forever real soon. I don't want to rush to judgment..but 1.4.blood alch. level... his football days are over.. Crabree may be the way to go now.. I have not really belived andy of LB's or DL guys were worthy of the #5 spot anyway.. I believe crabtree is.. The guy can flat out play..

 

I remembered speaking with Mike (OC) about Crabtree. At the time, I was thinking more in line with a speedy compliment to Edwards since I've been crystal clear about Stallworth's value to this team long before the accident. There's a reason none of the teams that overpaid him in FA were happy enough to keep him. Today, it's painfully obvious. Now our needs are 2-fold because we need someone with the grapefruits to compensate for the lost receptions over the middle we lost in trading Winslow AND we need still need that speed guy on the perimeter. Doesn't mean I didn't like the trade or acquiring Royal. Just means our offense lost a large percentage of it's blue collar receptions in places where hard hitting Safeties and LBers have been known to de-cleat the receivers.

 

Anyway, at the time of the discussion piece - I said the ONLY way I saw us going for Crabtree early was if Winslow was out of the picture. I know Winslow was labelled a TE here because he used a 3 point stance to run the same routes slot receivers run. But let's get real about Winslow's verticality and his ability to block the edge. He was over-the-middle guy with brass nuts and penecillin presriptions.

 

TODAY, I'm liking the Crabtree idea a whole lot more than I did. That said, I STILL think Cribbs has all the goodies to transition into a VERY effective slot man. Consequently, this makes me feel like Maclin is a better fit for us BECAUSE he's an experienced return guy too. ANOTHER kid I think could be an ideal chemistry x-factor (and this swims upstream vrs populr opinion) is Percy Harvin. You can put him out wide or in the slot and he's a deceptive powerhouse that won't get jammed so easily. I think his ability to break tackles when he lined up as a RB and raced 48 yards to the 50 when UF was in a field position jam shows you what he can do to an air tight ballgame. I think Oklahoma found his speed more overwhelming then they found Crabtree to be - not that it was all on Crabtree - they had 3 other WRs out in routes on every play as coverages were rolled toward Crabtree.

 

We've got some FUN options with the #5 pick. Just remember, we've done the popular opinion thing with Courtney Brown AND Tim Couch while Donovan McNabb and Torry Holt weren't nearly as popular. I remember the audacity of Indy choosing Edge James over Ricky Williams. Just think if Philly fan actually knew there was a BETTER RB than Ricky Williams playing at Villanova at the time (Brian Westbrook). Nobody woud have considered Westbrook a popular round 1 pick in 2002 so he became an enormous rd 3 STEAL for the same Philly program that thought their Ricky Williams hangover would last forever. Philly has made 5 NFC Championship appearances with him as the featured weapon while I think Ricky has only played in 1 or 2 playoff games since 1999.

- Tom F.

[mario]

Why is everybody still getting wood about Crabtree? I've been saying for months the guy isn't special. He has OK hands at best, benefited from a spread offense playing against bad defenses, none of which where in the top 50 in college football, isn't tall, and isn't fast.

 

Yeah the guy had one sweet TD reception off of a trick special teams play, WHOOOPTIEDOOO lets draft him so high in the first because of that?

 

We have a WR that has the Brown's franchise record for the best single season EVER by a WR. You guys want to give up on this guy because of one shitty year, with four shitty QBs throwing to him, while he had a sliced open ankle that got restriched at halftime? Then he keeps playing, instead of being a pussy like Stallworth, and gets a severe shoulder injury, and still keeps playing?

 

Sorry Edwards isn't from OSU, but atleast the guy doesn't ride the bench like some players when ever he gets a little bit of sand in his ass.

 

I don't care what they say about this being a "deep draft", its weak at RB, weak at WR, and weak at QB. It is ok at linebacker, with all the good guys being USC guys, some who might take a pay cut playing in the NFL if they are drafted later than round 1. There is no Matt Ryan in this draft, no Calvin Johnson, and no McFaddens. Crabtree is not a physical phenom at WR like Johnson was that you go crazy over, he is not worth a first round pick. If he is in the second, sure grab him, but some idiot GM will get him in the first just because he is being hyped up in a really weak WR class, I just hope our GM isn't the idiot wasting a pick on him.