Mudfly Posted November 30, 2015 Report Share Posted November 30, 2015 This guy has shown the ability to, even on a losing team with little help from the other side, be a double digit sack guy. r. Um...gotta debate this too.....because I went back and watched the games.....and Kruger benefitted GREATLY from Sheard pushing guys his way and from our DB's forcing the QB to hold the ball.... I counted only 4 sacks that I would say Kruger earned on his own(by beating his man)....the rest were coverage sacks, Sheard pushing his side of the pocket to Kruger and 2 that he was totally unblocked on..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gftChris Posted November 30, 2015 Report Share Posted November 30, 2015 I'll have to do the same and get back to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clevfan4life Posted November 30, 2015 Report Share Posted November 30, 2015 Sorry Cleve, but you're part of the problem here. This guy has shown the ability to, even on a losing team with little help from the other side, be a double digit sack guy. He's having a down season, clearly, but he's obviously got it in him to get to that level again, it's not like he's 35 and has diminishing physical skills or whatever. No way dude, he's been going 1v1 the entire time he's been here. Not one time has any team felt the need to spend more than one blocker on him. Not once. Those 11 sacks last year are the quietest 11 sacks you'll ever see. Those were a lot of cleanup sacks from behind cause the QB held the ball too long. Everybody gets home eventually when a QB feels like he can sit in the pocket for 6-7 seconds. About the diminishing skill set though, I mean i'm just not sure the proper pass rushing skills were ever there. He's made some plays in the league on just motor, so he has that....but the hand fighting, those "necessities" at being a competent edge rusher in this league were just never there. He had a good bullrush, that was it. Teams just started having their tackles setup for his bull and dare him to the outside. I've been writing about this for 3 years, he's never learned how to attack a tackles outside shoulder properly. He's been getting pushed around the 3 pt line for 3 years, now couple that with mudfly's stats about his tackling.....no he's done. I've been a supporter of his for 3 years, I've been saying he'll develop that outside rush y'all will see. Than we'll get our avg 12-15 sacks out of him. Nope, never happened. Kids career might have been different if he went to a 4-3 team. But in any case he got his 8m contract and a hot peroxide blonde for a wife so he's set. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mudfly Posted November 30, 2015 Report Share Posted November 30, 2015 and if you take away that one 11 sack season.....then he's got 21 sacks over 6 years.....or 3.5 per year...... This year....12 tackles, 3 assists and a 1.5 sacks......boils down to about $485,000 per tackle.....(those are Bowe-ish numbers) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gftChris Posted November 30, 2015 Report Share Posted November 30, 2015 Yeah, not sure what's up this year. Maybe we really do miss Sheard that much and shouldn't have let him go. Still, that kind of production shows what he's capable of and I don't think guys like that can be found on a street corner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gftChris Posted November 30, 2015 Report Share Posted November 30, 2015 Also it occurs to me that if we have Mingo and Orchard exclusively on non--pass-rush duties, and Kruger/Bryant on exclusively pass rushing duties, that may be a reason why our D is so porous. "Oh look, it's Kruger and Bryant, I think I'll audible to a run" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mudfly Posted November 30, 2015 Report Share Posted November 30, 2015 Also it occurs to me that if we have Mingo and Orchard exclusively on non--pass-rush duties, and Kruger/Bryant on exclusively pass rushing duties, that may be a reason why our D is so porous. "Oh look, it's Kruger and Bryant, I think I'll audible to a run" Now you're talking what Ive been talking about for a month because the coaches "tried" to mix it up and then got completely slammed for doing so........ IE: They rushed Orchard and Mingo a few times, which left Armonty and Kruger to cover.....which caused a million people to freak out, made Kruger start crying to the press, and folks to start saying the coach was "mis-using" his talent and calling stupid plays, yada yada yada, etc etc etc.... And, since we cant get to the QB, we've also tried some CB and Safety blitzes, which have left us exposed.....and has caused a lot of negativity toward the coaches again....but I see it as them just TRYING to find a way to get to the QB.....BUT, unfortunately, when we try something else, it means our OLB's have to assume a different role and they aren't able to do that and the good QB's just expose those weaknesses over and over again...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gftChris Posted November 30, 2015 Report Share Posted November 30, 2015 Why would rushing Mingo/Orchard leave Armonty/Kruger in coverage? They're not playing all four at any time, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tour2ma Posted November 30, 2015 Report Share Posted November 30, 2015 So maybe, just maybe, a 3-down OLB (or two) would help... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clevfan4life Posted November 30, 2015 Report Share Posted November 30, 2015 IE: They rushed Orchard and Mingo a few times, which left Armonty and Kruger to cover.....which caused a million people to freak out, and rightfully so right? I mean if you have Mingo/Orchard on one side and your jack OLB'er on the other, and you rush your weak side LB'er...than it's almost like a 4-3 blitzing OLB'er if you played with 3 down lineman. Normally if teams drop their strong side OLB'er into coverage it's in zone...not man coverage. And that I think would be fine, Kruger could do that. But did you notice what they were running to start the season when Soloman was playing? They were running a straight 4-3 with Soloman as the DE on one side and Kruger would be standing up on the other close to the line so almost 5 guys on the line. So Kruger was playing some kind of 4-3 OLB'er. So the plan had to have been from the beginning to put Kruger in coverage more and not just some anomalous part of special rush packages. And that is just mind boggling to me. Like why the fuck is pettine allowing Oneil to dipshit the defense like that? I know i'm still a pettine supporter but mainly be default cause we can't fire another coach after 2 years without tanking the franchise. But that grace on my part runs out next year if we're still seeing the same stupid shit personnel alignments. Especially if we draft Bosa and Pettne gets it in his head he'd make a great free safety or some stupid shit i'll be done with ole mikey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mudfly Posted November 30, 2015 Report Share Posted November 30, 2015 well, depends on the O alignment, but we pretty much rush one and drop one almost every time....and it is predictable... Kruger has 250 rushes vs 49 cover plays Armonty is 185 to 30..... But Orchard and Mingo both have more cover than rush...... Which makes everything very predictable...... So maybe, just maybe, a 3-down OLB (or two) would help... And, you and I are on the same page here..... right now, we have 4 pass rushing LB's(all converted DE's, btw) and zero that are really "cover" guys or run stoppers..... YES....give me a couple three down backers please......(Orchard looks like he could be one of em though) Edit....Cleve.....Kruger hasnt rushed any more than he did last year or the year before....the #'s are basically identical...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gftChris Posted November 30, 2015 Report Share Posted November 30, 2015 I honestly wouldn't mind seeing Kruger drop out of the rotation for a while, seeing what Orchard & Mingo can do in pass rush/stuff/coverage duties, since they both have multiple tools, while Bryant concentrates on rushing the passer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canton Dawg Posted November 30, 2015 Report Share Posted November 30, 2015 Um...gotta debate this too.....because I went back and watched the games.....and Kruger benefitted GREATLY from Sheard pushing guys his way and from our DB's forcing the QB to hold the ball.... I counted only 4 sacks that I would say Kruger earned on his own(by beating his man)....the rest were coverage sacks, Sheard pushing his side of the pocket to Kruger and 2 that he was totally unblocked on..... This is the same thing the Baltimore fans were saying about Kruger getting credit for Suggs applying heat to the QB from the opposite side of the line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mudfly Posted November 30, 2015 Report Share Posted November 30, 2015 I honestly wouldn't mind seeing Kruger drop out of the rotation for a while, seeing what Orchard & Mingo can do in pass rush/stuff/coverage duties, since they both have multiple tools, while Bryant concentrates on rushing the passer. Well....his snaps have been cut by almost 30 per game......and Orchard is getting most of them, with Armonty taking the rest.... Way back, after week 4, is when they really started mixing things up....so, at least they identified the problem early and tried to make changes....it just isnt working because all the OLB's have similar skills(and,therfore, similar shortcomings)..(or vice versa).... After week 5, if you remember, Kruger dropped from 70 snaps to 25 snaps and Oneill was asked about it in his pressy...his reply was they were resting Kruger to keep him fresh.....hahahaha.....hilarious.... This is the same thing the Baltimore fans were saying about Kruger getting credit for Suggs applying heat to the QB from the opposite side of the line. Right,,,,,and people dont even realize that Kruger wasnt even a starter in Baltimore.....he played 4 years as a back up to Suggs......and then Suggs got hurt and Baltimore made it to the SuperBowl and Kruger had some big games in the playoffs......so the Browns opened the check book. but now are seeing why Baltimore used him as a back up.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tour2ma Posted November 30, 2015 Report Share Posted November 30, 2015 And, you and I are on the same page here..... right now, we have 4 pass rushing LB's(all converted DE's, btw) and zero that are really "cover" guys or run stoppers..... YES....give me a couple three down backers please......(Orchard looks like he could be one of em though) ... and we've only been saying this for two years and counting. I agree on Orchard. And again I think it is worth noting that here is a player that has grown into Pet/O'Neil's system. On Kruger... am I the only one that thinks he looks slower and less agile than he did last year? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canton Dawg Posted November 30, 2015 Report Share Posted November 30, 2015 On Kruger... am I the only one that thinks he looks slower and less agile than he did last year? No, I've been thinking that all season. IMO, the guy isn't giving his full effort. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jiggins7919 Posted November 30, 2015 Report Share Posted November 30, 2015 Exactly how I feel...100%...it's beyond bad.......Kruger actually has 4 games without a single tackle(40%) and Mingo has 5(50%)...... How can your starting OLB's not get ANY tackles in half the games they play???......It;s completely insane...... Here's some fun stats to think about..... Orchard gets a tackle every 15 snaps Bryant gets a tackle every 21 snaps Mingo gets a tackle every 22 snaps Kruger gets a tackle every 44 snaps.... Which means, to me, that Orchard tackles at 3 times the efficiency that Kruger does,,,,,,and Mingo and Armonty are twice as efficient(and they arent even good)......(totally embarrassing)....Kruger should just be cut, not traded(in fact, I think we tried and had no takers) OMG...I had NO idea about Kruger's stats. Wouldn't he accidentally get four tackles every other game? One tackle every 44 snaps?!! How does that compare to other OLB's? Actually...I probably don't want to know. Somebody else mentioned how slow Kruger appears, and I have to agree. While never a burner, I've seen several plays involving Kruger where he was trucking after a ball carrier, and he had NO CHANCE of catching anybody. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gipper Posted November 30, 2015 Report Share Posted November 30, 2015 Bottom line on the last 6 pages of conversation that I have perused: Consensus opionion: Our defensive coaching staff doesn't have a fucking clue on how to use the players at their disposal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mudfly Posted November 30, 2015 Report Share Posted November 30, 2015 Bottom line on the last 6 pages of conversation that I have perused: Consensus opionion: Our defensive coaching staff doesn't have a fucking clue on how to use the players at their disposal. You obviously didnt read those 6 pages....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gipper Posted November 30, 2015 Report Share Posted November 30, 2015 You obviously didnt read those 6 pages....... No, true, not everything....but I read enough to know that was still a major thread.....that the talent on this team is being misutilized. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clevfan4life Posted November 30, 2015 Report Share Posted November 30, 2015 how is he slower since they dropped weight off him and expected him to do more cover work? how does that work? In any case....I don't want this 3-4 crap next year. Put 4 big mooks on the line with edges that can stop the run and pressure the QB. Have 3 good LB'ers that can tackle and go out in coverage. Need a wild card blitzer? Bring Mingo to the line and disguise whether he's rushing or dropping. Mingo's better rushing when he has a few steps before he hits the line anyway. That's what our defense is built for right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tour2ma Posted November 30, 2015 Report Share Posted November 30, 2015 Just checking my eye test when it comes to Kruger... and lower weight or not, expecting more cover work/ work in space gives opportunity to look slow. As for your D Rx... the same script could be written for a 3-4. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jiggins7919 Posted December 1, 2015 Report Share Posted December 1, 2015 I know it's not fair to judge Orchard by one play, but he missed a pretty big tackle on a swing pass, and he wasn't even closes. Gruden called him out pretty badly for it, too. It wasn't an easy play, but Nate didn't even slow the guy down. Ugh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mudfly Posted December 1, 2015 Report Share Posted December 1, 2015 All the missed tackles were mind boggling.......13 missed tackles......WOW!!!!....(and, THAT is on the players and their effort) Of course, Im not too surprised.....been saying this all along.....these OLB's completely suck rocks..... Kruger(1), Orchard(1), Mingo(1) and Armonty(0) all COMBINED for 3 fucking tackles the whole game..........3.... Thats not even a good game for one LB, let alone 4 of them......it's disgusting and pathetic Really....it's as if they aren't even in the game...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gftChris Posted December 1, 2015 Report Share Posted December 1, 2015 Does the 13 count the two-fer on that TD? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mudfly Posted December 1, 2015 Report Share Posted December 1, 2015 Does the 13 count the two-fer on that TD? Ha!.....nope.....the 13 does not include ST misses......just the D..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jiggins7919 Posted December 1, 2015 Report Share Posted December 1, 2015 Kruger, Mingo, Bryant, and Orchard combined for 3 tackles? I mean...wow. I don't even know how that is possible. They really are THAT bad, and the bigger issue is...how in the heck do you replace your entire linebacking corp in one season? I guess you don't, and it's a process. Maybe we need someone like Bosa more than I thought we did. People can scream all they want to about a quarterback, but if you don't have anyone on defense that can make a damn tackle, it doesn't matter who is throwing the ball. Aside from the horrific tackling last night, I thought our pass rush was incredibly awful. We tried several different ways to create pressure, and almost NONE of them worked. I believe that on one of Schuab's interceptions we got some good middle pressure, but I honestly don't remember. I just have visions of our defenders just being swallowed up by their line, and that being the end of it. The one play that sticks out in my mind is when Terence West perfectly picked up a blitzing Brown. I believe it was Whitner, but I'm not sure. I would hope our guy would blow West apart, but it didn't happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mudfly Posted December 1, 2015 Report Share Posted December 1, 2015 Right.....we didnt even touch their QB or put any hits on him.....zippo.....nada....nyet....... So he had all day to find a receiver.......not really rocket science here..... In fairness to the team though, had our Special Teams not failed so miserably and given up 2 TD's, we wouldacouldashoulda won..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clevfan4life Posted December 1, 2015 Report Share Posted December 1, 2015 Get rid of Kruger and Soloman. Give Orchard one more year. Tell Armonty to go back to DE weight and draft Bosa. Maybe bring that Dylan Wynn kid back as depth, he showed some promise in preseason. Just go back to a 4-3. Mingo might even show us something as a blitzing 4-3 olb'er who could be a major problem for teams in coverage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tour2ma Posted December 1, 2015 Report Share Posted December 1, 2015 I know it's not fair to judge Orchard by one play, but he missed a pretty big tackle on a swing pass, and he wasn't even closes. Gruden called him out pretty badly for it, too. It wasn't an easy play, but Nate didn't even slow the guy down. Ugh. In my mind there are side by side images of plays from our MNF game and the SNF Pats/Broncos' game. - Both are swing passes to the right flat to RBs (the Ravens' Allen and the Broncos' Hilliard). - Both are closed upon by LBs (our Orchard and the Pats' Hightower). - In our game Nate never sets, gets juked and virtually whiffs as the RB runs for a 1st down. - In the Pats' game, Hightower breaks down, awaits the RB's move and makes an ankle tackle far short of the line to gain. The main difference is position coaching. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.