browns52 Posted December 1, 2015 Report Share Posted December 1, 2015 I know it's not fair to judge Orchard by one play, but he missed a pretty big tackle on a swing pass, and he wasn't even closes. Gruden called him out pretty badly for it, too. It wasn't an easy play, but Nate didn't even slow the guy down. Ugh. In my mind there are side by side images of plays from our MNF game and the SNF Pats/Broncos' game. - Both are swing passes to the right flat to RBs (the Ravens' Allen and the Broncos' Hilliard). - Both are closed upon by LBs (our Orchard and the Pats' Hightower). - In our game Nate never sets, gets juked and virtually whiffs as the RB runs for a 1st down. - In the Pats' game, Hightower breaks down, awaits the RB's move and makes an ankle tackle far short of the line to gain. The main difference is position coaching. the fucking gm is a bust...deal with it..he knows absolutely nothing about talent.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Couch Pulls Out Posted December 1, 2015 Report Share Posted December 1, 2015 the fucking gm is a bust...deal with it..he knows absolutely nothing about talent.... The only bust here is Mike Pettine. Deal with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canton Mike Posted December 1, 2015 Report Share Posted December 1, 2015 Would SOMEONE PLEASE list the Browns' players, drafted by Farmer or before, who have played at a higher level this year? Farmer has NOT drafted or signed them all, but Pettine & staff HAVE coached them all, with a regression in performance & results folks. Scheme, fundamentals, & on field discipline suck! Sorry, but I'm calling "common denominator" here, & that is the coaching.......High School Mike needs to go home. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tour2ma Posted December 1, 2015 Report Share Posted December 1, 2015 Would SOMEONE PLEASE list the Browns' players, drafted by Farmer or before, who have played at a higher level this year? Farmer has NOT drafted or signed them all, but Pettine & staff HAVE coached them all, with a regression in performance & results folks. Scheme, fundamentals, & on field discipline suck! Sorry, but I'm calling "common denominator" here, & that is the coaching.......High School Mike needs to go home. Manziel, Schwartz, Benji, maybe Gabe... Not as sure about D, but maybe Des B., K'waun, Desir. Now your turn... list pre-Pet Browns that have played worse this and last year than they did under Chud/Patsy... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richiswhere Posted December 2, 2015 Report Share Posted December 2, 2015 So Nate makes his name in college ( 18.5 sacks, 2014 All American Team & 2014 Ted Hendricks award winner) by rushing the quarterback. Now with the Browns I don't think I have even seen this guy rushing the quarterback but I do see him a lot in coverage. I look back at some draft analysis on Nate and all had positive thing to say about his pass rushing skills and on the reverse side most had pass coverage as something he need to work on and some didn't even mention him at all in pass coverage they just talked about his ability to rush the quarterback. The position that the Browns are putting Nate Orchard in is not what he played in college. You didn't draft him to play coverage you drafted him because he can rush the quarterback. ....and people laughed when I said if the Browns and Pettine drafted Joey Bosa they would move him to OLB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canton Mike Posted December 2, 2015 Report Share Posted December 2, 2015 Manziel, Schwartz, Benji, maybe Gabe... Not as sure about D, but maybe Des B., K'waun, Desir. Now your turn... list pre-Pet Browns that have played worse this and last year than they did under Chud/Patsy... My statement was THIS year, drafted by Farmer or before, so let's stick with that...played worse: Mack, Thomas (penalties), Hawkins, Crowell, Gabriel, Haden, Kruger. Bottom line is that REgress trumps PROgress this year, & Pettine has thrown them under the bus as opposed to accepting the inadequacies of HIS system. I'm not going to debate this with you. We are neither 100% right or wrong, so let's just agree to disagree. My opinion remains that Pettine has FAILED to take this Team forward. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canton Mike Posted December 2, 2015 Report Share Posted December 2, 2015 So Nate makes his name in college ( 18.5 sacks, 2014 All American Team & 2014 Ted Hendricks award winner) by rushing the quarterback. Now with the Browns I don't think I have even seen this guy rushing the quarterback but I do see him a lot in coverage. I look back at some draft analysis on Nate and all had positive thing to say about his pass rushing skills and on the reverse side most had pass coverage as something he need to work on and some didn't even mention him at all in pass coverage they just talked about his ability to rush the quarterback. The position that the Browns are putting Nate Orchard in is not what he played in college. You didn't draft him to play coverage you drafted him because he can rush the quarterback. ....and people laughed when I said if the Browns and Pettine drafted Joey Bosa they would move him to OLB. Agreed. I can add nothing more. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mudfly Posted December 2, 2015 Report Share Posted December 2, 2015 So Nate makes his name in college by rushing the quarterback...Now with the Browns..... I do see him a lot in coverage. ....You didn't draft him to play coverage you drafted him because he can rush the quarterback. That completely plays into the point Ive been TRYING to make throughout this entire thread.....Ill say it louder.... ALL 4 OF OUR OLBS WERE BROUGHT HERE JUST TO RUSH THE PASSER.....EVERY SINGLE ONE.... Mingo, pass rush specialist......Kruger, pass rush specialist.....Armonty, pass rush specialist,....and Orchard, pass rush specialist... Now,,,, for all you guys saying Pettine is an idiot for "miss-using" these guys in coverage or playing the run......WHO is he SUPPOSED to use?????.....do we just rush everybody every play?????....cmon, think about it..... This is on Farmer for bringing in 4 one dimensional players who ALL have the same ONE skill, while NOT having the other TWO skills required to be an OLB in the NFL..... Pettine has no choice but to drop someone....almost every play,,,,,so who's it gonna be if you;re not gonna drop Mingo, Kruger, Armonty or Orchard????? Maybe Ray Farmer can suit up and do it???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tour2ma Posted December 2, 2015 Report Share Posted December 2, 2015 So it's Pet fault for not rushing at least 7 every pass play? Is that what you are trying to say? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiamat63 Posted December 2, 2015 Report Share Posted December 2, 2015 I wonder how much of a stretch it would be to employ more of an under system that someone like Dan Quinn uses. The way I see it, the personnel we have isn't far off from what was used during his tenure in Seattle. I picture Orchard growing into a Leo spot quite well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mudfly Posted December 2, 2015 Report Share Posted December 2, 2015 So it's Pet fault for not rushing at least 7 every pass play? Is that what you are trying to say? yes....rush em all....and screw trying to cover any backs or TE's...... Maybe the 2 middle backers can do all that.....stop the run, fill the gaps, set the edge, cover all the RB's and TE's, protect the middle.... While Kruger and the rest just have to wrestle with some O linemen....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gftChris Posted December 3, 2015 Report Share Posted December 3, 2015 My statement was THIS year, drafted by Farmer or before, so let's stick with that...played worse: Mack, Thomas (penalties), Hawkins, Crowell, Gabriel, Haden, Kruger. Bottom line is that REgress trumps PROgress this year, & Pettine has thrown them under the bus as opposed to accepting the inadequacies of HIS system. I'm not going to debate this with you. We are neither 100% right or wrong, so let's just agree to disagree. My opinion remains that Pettine has FAILED to take this Team forward. Mike Mack: injuries might be affecting that? Thomas - penalties: he had 10 last season, 6 so far this, so he's on track for a better season penalty-wise Hawkins: Not sure what's happened there, probably a change in OC did him in. Gabriel: same. We're not getting the little guys open as much. Crowell: no idea. The above are all O players, and Pett has less to do with that than the D players, so it's quite possibly that the change in OC contributed as much as any thing else. Where Hawkins and Gabriel have gone down, from a combined 1,668 yards last year, Benjamin and Barnidge are already at almost 1,600 combined, so I'll call that at worst a push, and at best getting more out of them. The others - Thomas, Mack & Crowell, and throw in Bitonio who has not been at the same level by all accounts - are all OL players, and Crowell whose game is a direct product of the OL. Speculation on my part, but I think this is down to a combination of a rookie OC, and *no* OL coach, after boozy-mcfeely got suspended at the start of the season. Haden - injuries. He's barely played, it's a lost season for him, and they won't rush him back, but try to give more game time to the kids under the guise of a decent excuse, not tanking the season. Kruger - is the only one that has genuinely and without good reason regressed. It could equally be that last year was his career year and he's gone from an up year to a down year, and is just a 5-6 sack guy, as he was in his first year here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wargograw Posted December 3, 2015 Report Share Posted December 3, 2015 Mud, going into this year, Mingo was your coverage guy. So no, they're not all pass rushers. We had no pass rush last year (Kruger's luck sacks notwithstanding), so many thought we needed as pass rushing OLB. We got that in Orchard. Now Farmer is the scapegoat because too many of his backers are pass rushers? Ok... All that said, let me once again bang the Aldon Smith drum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mudfly Posted December 3, 2015 Report Share Posted December 3, 2015 Kruger - is the only one that has genuinely and without good reason regressed. It could equally be that last year was his career year and he's gone from an up year to a down year, and is just a 5-6 sack guy, as he was in his first year here. You and I have about the same perspective.... Mud, going into this year, Mingo was your coverage guy. So no, they're not all pass rushers. We had no pass rush last year (Kruger's luck sacks notwithstanding), so many thought we needed as pass rushing OLB. We got that in Orchard. Now Farmer is the scapegoat because too many of his backers are pass rushers? Ok... All that said, let me once again bang the Aldon Smith drum. Mingo was drafted as a pass rusher.....yes, we use him to cover and I have no issue there....BUT, many people have been complaining "because" we use him to cover and saying the coach is not using him right.........and the same with Armonty and Kruger and, now, Orchard....bitching because they have to cover.....so my point was "for those bitching about these guys covering, who IS supposed to cover???....and HOW is Pettine using these guys wrong when they are the only ones he has????? And....yes,.....the sad part is we DID(or do) need an edge rusher.....even with these 4 "pass rushing specialists", we still have NO ONE who can get to the QB on his own......(and the complaint is that they are too busy covering to rush, apparently).... Aldon Smith is suspended for year, so he's not helping anyone......And he may be a good player, but dont you think we have enough jerks(and drunks) on this team to last a lifetime???....sorry.....glad we passed..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wargograw Posted December 3, 2015 Report Share Posted December 3, 2015 I'm just saying, you seem to be somewhat complaining about Farmer bringing Orchard in, but we were widely viewed as needing an Orchard, so you can't really blame Farmer. Maybe I'm reading you wrong. No, we have one drunk. Zero jerks as far as I know, unless you want to call the drunk that. More importantly though, as we've been discussing, we have no good OLBs. Smith is one. He played 8 or 9 games. I'd venture to guess if he started our first 8 or 9 games we'd have at least a couple more wins. He's THAT good and our guys are THAT bad. Furthermore, we'd get him back for our impending playoff push in the back half of next season. He was also, I'm assuming, cheap. Complete no brainer. Then again, this is all assuming Pettine would actually play him, which we all know is speculative at best. Lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gftChris Posted December 3, 2015 Report Share Posted December 3, 2015 Mud, those guys we drafted as pass rushers - Orchard, Mingo, Bryant (I think) - were all 4-3 DEs. As you know my football acumen isn't as high as others but I'm pretty sure that doesn't involve much in the way of dropping in to coverage. Pass rush and edge-set/run stuff, sure. We drafted Orchard who was a solid run defender and nation's leading pass rusher, and then drop him in to coverage? I don't know the snap breakdown for him, but that seems like a waste of talent and trying to fit the players to the scheme, not the other way around. I'm more and more thinking we need to look at a 4-3 to get the most out of our edge rushers, but then where does that leave Shelton, a dedicated NT? Can he effectively play DT in a 4-3? I know Des Bryant can, he did it in Oakland, but what about Meder? Dylan Wynn looked decent in preseason as a guy who can play that position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wargograw Posted December 3, 2015 Report Share Posted December 3, 2015 Meder is probably better suited for a 4-3 as well. The only guy really positionless in a 3-4 to 4-3 move is the noseguard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gftChris Posted December 3, 2015 Report Share Posted December 3, 2015 Meder is probably better suited for a 4-3 as well. The only guy really positionless in a 3-4 to 4-3 move is the noseguard. That's where Meder's been playing unless I'm mistaken, backing up Shelton. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wargograw Posted December 3, 2015 Report Share Posted December 3, 2015 Yes, but he's very undersized for it. By the way, Jamie Meder: another Farmer accomplishment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gftChris Posted December 3, 2015 Report Share Posted December 3, 2015 Yes, but he's very undersized for it. By the way, Jamie Meder: another Farmer accomplishment. While credit must be given for players like Meder, he's not exactly a super start that's had a big bearing on our season. I'd rather he get a few first round picks right than a few UDFAs. For example, Gabriel was a decent find at WR, but we could have taken OBJ instead of Gilbert, and found as much contribution as Gilbert from a UDFA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mudfly Posted December 3, 2015 Report Share Posted December 3, 2015 I'm just saying, you seem to be somewhat complaining about Farmer bringing Orchard in, Then again, this is all assuming Pettine would actually play him, which we all know is speculative at best. Lol. I think you're completely missing my point.....I am not complaining about Farmer......Im complaining about people complaining about Pettine miss using our OLB's.....when they all have exactly the same skills....and are being used like they were used last year too.....yet everyone acts as if we have completely switched up their responsibilities....and we haven't..... Mingo, Kruger and Bryant were already here when Farmer took over.....Farmer has added Orchard and Solomon only...... Id say while Orchard WAS brought in to rush the passer, but he appears to be the most versatile LB of all of them....and since the others are so terrible at playing the run and coverage.....its seems like a no brainer for the coach to use Orchard in that role.... I do know Kruger is speaking out that he should be only a pass rusher......I hear a lot of screaming about Armonty covering, when he should be rushing the passer......and lots of "why isnt mingo rushing the passer?"......and now, Im hearing Orchard should be rushing.. So.....AGAIN......WHO SHOULD BE COVERING AND PLAYING THE RUN???.....and if we put Orchard in to rush, who drops into coverage?.... All these guys should be able to do multiple things....and they cant(its obvious).....so, if Orchard just rushes and Mingo just covers, wouldnt that make us pretty easy to figure out?.....yes it would.... Bottom line, We need versatile OLB's that play multiple roles and we dont have them......and that is not Pettines fault.....(which is my point).... Aldon Smith??...we just disagree, so Im not debating it.......when he was available this spring, the Browns were in the middle of dealing with Johnny and his rehab, as well as waiting for JG's impending suspension.....I dont see any world where, at that moment, the Browns were gonna reach out and sign another problem guy(no matter how good he was)......just dont see it..... Mud, those guys we drafted as pass rushers - Orchard, Mingo, Bryant (I think) - were all 4-3 DEs. As you know my football acumen isn't as high as others but I'm pretty sure that doesn't involve much in the way of dropping in to coverage. Pass rush and edge-set/run stuff, sure. We drafted Orchard who was a solid run defender and nation's leading pass rusher, and then drop him in to coverage? I don't know the snap breakdown for him, but that seems like a waste of talent and trying to fit the players to the scheme, not the other way around. I'm more and more thinking we need to look at a 4-3 to get the most out of our edge rushers, but then where does that leave Shelton, a dedicated NT? Can he effectively play DT in a 4-3? I know Des Bryant can, he did it in Oakland, but what about Meder? Dylan Wynn looked decent in preseason as a guy who can play that position. Orchard was a DE too....so make that all 4 OLB's are converted DE's.......and again(as stated 50 times already)....they were all drafted on the basis that they would be good pass rushers.....every one of them.....allllllllll of them....PASS RUSHERS .... So...putting ANY of them into coverage goes against the original premise of why they are here......and since NONE of them are true OLB's, then SOMEONE has to cover......why is this so hard for people to get????.....and the only ones who can cover appear to be Orchard and Mingo.... So....I will ask the same question I have asked over and over and no one wants to answer....WHO COVERS IF NOT ORCHARD AND MINGO? And, in truth, the Browns have started trying to mix it up with these LB's to see who can do what, because they are not getting it done. And the "mixing up" is seen by some as "miss-using" or changing what we did last year.....while I see it as a frustrated coaching staff making adjustments to try to get some production out of 4 LB's who arent playing well 4-3?.....would be fine, except they've been drafting and building to be a 3-4....so that pretty much would burn the Shelton pick...and even if we went to a 4-3, we still dont have OLB's, except maybe Orchard...... But we would have an over abundance of DE's, MLB's and DT's so we could rotate them till our heads were spinning..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gftChris Posted December 3, 2015 Report Share Posted December 3, 2015 Mud, the basis of your point seems to be "I know we drafted and signed a load of 4-3 DEs, but we decided to run a 3-4, so converted them all to OLBs and made them drop in to coverage, if they don't, who will?" There doesn't seem to be a problem there? We've drafted guys based on a single talent (pass rush) primarily, and then we expect them to do something else. As for 4-3 OLBs, Kirksey was an OLB at college and is now ILB, I'm pretty sure he could do that job. Mingo would probably be quite effective. Robertson played there in his first year with the Browns. Dansby would be the Mike, sure, and we could use an extra backer or two, but it wouldn't be disastrous. Shelton is the only concern I would have converting to a 4-3. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mudfly Posted December 3, 2015 Report Share Posted December 3, 2015 Mud, the basis of your point seems to be "I know we drafted and signed a load of 4-3 DEs, but we decided to run a 3-4, so converted them all to OLBs and made them drop in to coverage, if they don't, who will?" There doesn't seem to be a problem there? We've drafted guys based on a single talent (pass rush) primarily, and then we expect them to do something else. As for 4-3 OLBs, Kirksey was an OLB at college and is now ILB, I'm pretty sure he could do that job. Mingo would probably be quite effective. Robertson played there in his first year with the Browns. Dansby would be the Mike, sure, and we could use an extra backer or two, but it wouldn't be disastrous. Shelton is the only concern I would have converting to a 4-3. Well...Im simply trying to defend Pettine for using the guys he has, because he is under attack, but has no OLBs to use.... We were "supposed" to be built as a 3-4 team going back 3 years now.....we were 3-4 with Horton....and Pettines system is 3-4 too.....so, we can say Pettine is wrong for wanting to use his system or the FO is wrong for acquiring all the wrong talent.....either would be a valid argument....(I think we brought Pettine here BECAUSE of his success with this system, right?) So today with this current roster.....he has to use the OLBs he has....and everyone is screaming he is miss using them.....so whats he to do???....how is Pettine screwing up the D?....should we switch to a 4-3 in the middle of a season?.....just trash the system because our guys aren't good enough to execute it?...... Still waiting to hear....Out of these 4 OLBs......right now, who covers and who rushes???..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gftChris Posted December 3, 2015 Report Share Posted December 3, 2015 I hear what you're saying, and I'm not blaming any specific individual - there's plenty of blame to go around. It just seems like we're drafting the wrong guys for the system, and/or using the guys we draft in a way that curbs their main skill and exposes a weakness. Of our four OLBs now, Mingo is obviously the cover guy, but if he's obviously the cover guy, he's also not rushing; Kruger's obviously a (bull)rusher, but a liability in coverage. When a QB sees those two on the field he knows where pressure's coming from, because they're so one-dimensional. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mudfly Posted December 3, 2015 Report Share Posted December 3, 2015 Of our four OLBs now, Mingo is obviously the cover guy, but if he's obviously the cover guy, he's also not rushing; Kruger's obviously a (bull)rusher, but a liability in coverage. When a QB sees those two on the field he knows where pressure's coming from, because they're so one-dimensional. There it is.........thank you!.... And...since they know whats coming.....now, coach is just trying to mix that up a little by having Kruger drop or Orchard rush occasionally......it only makes sense.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gftChris Posted December 3, 2015 Report Share Posted December 3, 2015 There it is.........thank you!.... And...since they know whats coming.....now, coach is just trying to mix that up a little by having Kruger drop or Orchard rush occasionally......it only makes sense.... Dropping Kruger, not rushing Orchard, not playing to the strengths of our guys and not putting them in a position to succeed, *that* is on the coach, not the GM. Last year we played Jabaal Sheard at left OLB prety much every snap, IIRC, and now in New England they have him lining up all over the shop, at OLB, DE, I think even blitzing ILB at one point, but all playing to his strengths. What does each guy do well? Maybe Orchard's a hand fighter, Kruger's a power guy, Mingo's a speed guy, so create mismatches against opposing linemen based on that. Have Mingo rush opposing equivalent of Mitchell Schwartz and his world renowned weakness to a speed rush, for example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mudfly Posted December 3, 2015 Report Share Posted December 3, 2015 What does each guy do well? Maybe Orchard's a hand fighter, Kruger's a power guy, Mingo's a speed guy, so create mismatches against opposing linemen based on that. Have Mingo rush opposing equivalent of Mitchell Schwartz and his world renowned weakness to a speed rush, for example. Id say that rushing the passer is what they are supposed to do well.....although they never get any sacks..... Kruger rushes 83% of his pass snaps...(last year he rushed 88%)(so, about the same) Armonty rushes 85% of his pass plays.... Orchard rushes 60% of his pass plays.... Mingo rushes 40% of his pass plays.... So, Id say coach IS playing to their strengths.....as Orchard and Mingo are best at cover and Kruger and Armonty are rush only guys.....and, in a very small percentage of pass plays(1 in 10), they switch up to keep the other team honest...OR....the other team(QB) forces the issue by taking advantage of these guys limitations and adjusting at the line to force a Kruger or Armonty into coverage, when they'd rather not be.... We could go on......but in my world, these OLBs aint getting it and no coach would be getting what he needs from them....3-4 or 4-3.....if you cant tackle and you cant cover, then you are not a good olb no matter what the system is.....period.... And the % I just posted are pretty consistent with the rest of the OLB's in the league....our guys are being asked to do what ALL of the 3-4 OLB's are doing...every team....same percentages.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tour2ma Posted December 3, 2015 Report Share Posted December 3, 2015 Amen, brother, Mud... Mack: injuries might be affecting that? Thomas - penalties: he had 10 last season, 6 so far this, so he's on track for a better season penalty-wise Hawkins: Not sure what's happened there, probably a change in OC did him in. Gabriel: same. We're not getting the little guys open as much. Crowell: no idea. Haden - injuries. He's barely played, it's a lost season for him, and they won't rush him back, but try to give more game time to the kids under the guise of a decent excuse, not tanking the season. Kruger - is the only one that has genuinely and without good reason regressed. It could equally be that last year was his career year and he's gone from an up year to a down year, and is just a 5-6 sack guy, as he was in his first year here. Nice analysis... I'd only add that: - Hawk's career year was fueled in part by being fed last year by a QB that suited his game better than either of our 2 starters to date, Hoyer. Hoyer had the best combination of read and release while Hawks routes did and still do depend upon timing. It's possible that AD may now step to the head of that column. Also possible that AD has been throwing to Hawk a lot on the side as Hawk has been working his way back. - Both Hawk and Gabe have been pushed a little deeper in the rotation by Benji's re-emergence and Hart's addition. Bottom line, We need versatile OLB's that play multiple roles and we dont have them......and that is not Pettines fault.....(which is my point).... At minimum it would be nice if one of the rushers had multiple moves... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clevfan4life Posted December 3, 2015 Report Share Posted December 3, 2015 At minimum it would be nice if one of the rushers had multiple moves... armonty and desmond have a decent tool set. The others, not so much. Big reason I want Bosa, whether we stay in a 3-4 or move to 4-3. I see more pass rushing variety out of Bosa than any of our guys. I'd prefer we move to a 4-3 so that we could retain armonty and Orchard, both of whom I think make better 4-3 DE's although Orchard has proven we could use him on days we feel the need to drop one of the guys on the line into coverage more Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tour2ma Posted December 3, 2015 Report Share Posted December 3, 2015 Did slight the Bryant boys a tad perhaps, especially Armonty. And so were clear, I'm not saying Bosa is not a top DL prospect, just not sold on a #1 overall status. So when I ask for a 2015 game, or two or three, to watch that makes the #1 case, I am being serious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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