MDDawg Posted November 4, 2015 Report Share Posted November 4, 2015 Brandon Lambert's opinion at dawgpounddaily: http://dawgpounddaily.com/2015/11/02/curious-case-ray-farmer-mike-pettine/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Opal312 Posted November 4, 2015 Report Share Posted November 4, 2015 Great article! I never thought of it that way. It makes a ton of sense when you have injuries to the secondary and Gilbert not playing. What are they saving Gilbert and Manziel for? For what? McCown said he couldn't sleep or breathe but Pettine keeps saying if he's healthy he'll play. I might be wrong about Farmer. We will wait and see in the next few weeks if they play these guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tour2ma Posted November 4, 2015 Report Share Posted November 4, 2015 Wow... article's author outdoes the "on the rag" thread. There are legitimate criticisms of Pet to be sure, but failure to hold players accountable? Throwing them under the bus? Doing nothing to help Josh Gordon succeed? Worst of all is where he criticizes Pet for not pulling McC after his rib injury in one paragraph and then in the next criticizes him for putting in JM late. Wow... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbedward Posted November 4, 2015 Report Share Posted November 4, 2015 Maybe Pettine will look like a genius someday for sitting guys who aren't ready for the NFL yet like Erving, JM, and Gilbert? Maybe it's not a coincidence that the JM we saw last year that clearly wasn't ready for the NFL, has looked better and more NFL ready (as if he's made progress in camp/practice) in his 1 and 3/4 games so far this year? Pettine may have the right idea with JM so far. Maybe the Gilbert we saw last year who pretty much sucked is also making progress this year? He looks to be a pretty decent tackler and quick on special teams anyway. Maybe Erving isn't playing because we have 4 potential pro bowler O-lineman starting and another who is pretty decent. Idk, enough being reasonable LoL Pettine obviously doesn’t like Manziel, doesn’t want him on his team, and will do whatever he can to bury the young quarterback in the Cleveland quarterback graveyard. Agreed! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mudfly Posted November 4, 2015 Report Share Posted November 4, 2015 Maybe the Gilbert we saw last year who pretty much sucked is also making progress this year? He looks to be a pretty decent tackler and quick on special teams anyway. Exactly.......and right now, Gilbert is our #1 rated special teams player....AND leads the team in ST tackles, even though he hasn't played as much as others.... And tackling is something some people said he couldnt do....and, let me tell you, head hunting on ST takes big balls and a lot of effort.....something else people have implied he doesnt have..... So......???.......play him.....he's doing what he's supposed to do.....and is excelling.....play.....him.......NOW...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrb12711 Posted November 4, 2015 Report Share Posted November 4, 2015 It's a fair question that article poses and something that will flesh itself out in time, that's for sure. I keep going back and forth on the idea personally because while Gilbert and Manziel appear to have been "bad" picks, it's awfully hard to know without actually seeing them on game day in full on roles. But, are they actually practicing that bad or is Pettine's hubris and/or dislike of the guys the cause? It's hard for me to think the guys that are playing above them are that much better when we're looking down the barrel of another 3-4 win season overall. IF those guys are actually worse though, yikes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tour2ma Posted November 4, 2015 Report Share Posted November 4, 2015 Exactly.......and right now, Gilbert is our #1 rated special teams player....AND leads the team in ST tackles, even though he hasn't played as much as others.... I did not know that... Learned something new and it's only a little after 08:00... taking the rest of the day off... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darkside5 Posted November 4, 2015 Report Share Posted November 4, 2015 Good question MD. I think some of the responsibility falls on a few players as well. Josh Gordon's discarded "blunt" started the dumpster smoldering and then Johnny spilled his 150 proof and some rolled up twenties in there that started the blaze. Pettine and Farmer started a bucket brigade and have been trying to put the fire out now for a year and a half , but maybe going about it the wrong way. The Dwayne Bowe acquisition just added expensive garbage to the fire. There are too many holes in this bucket. Sometimes you just have to let it flame out and sift through the ashes and see what can be saved. I don't know if Pettine really hates Manziel or not , but it's time to put egos aside and once and for all put the Qb questions to rest. If Johnny burns up in the fire, so be it. Who knows, maybe he can make it rain W's and a rainbow shoots out of his ass and all is well in Cleveland........... but I doubt it. GO BROWNS!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clevfan4life Posted November 4, 2015 Report Share Posted November 4, 2015 I couldnt' make it past the accusation that Pettine isn't helping Josh Gordon succeed. You can just stop reading right there because some mail room chimp typed that up by banging on the keyboard lots. Someone should be fired from life for having that opinion. There's only one person in this world who's getting in Josh Gordons way..............3 guesses everyone, 3 guesses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miktoxic Posted November 4, 2015 Report Share Posted November 4, 2015 free agency is the trump card when it comes to farmer. i think he's good at finding valuable players in low rankings but might need to go back to night school when it comes to the first rounders (even though i loved the gilbert and shelton picks). we always sign some fucked up old retread in FA.....never fails. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miktoxic Posted November 4, 2015 Report Share Posted November 4, 2015 I couldnt' make it past the accusation that Pettine isn't helping Josh Gordon succeed. You can just stop reading right there because some mail room chimp typed that up by banging on the keyboard lots. Someone should be fired from life for having that opinion. There's only one person in this world who's getting in Josh Gordons way..............3 guesses everyone, 3 guesses. 1. the pope 2. samuel l. jackson 3. josh gordon. maybe? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MDDawg Posted November 4, 2015 Author Report Share Posted November 4, 2015 Don't agree with everything in the article but this an alternative analysis of the difficulties the Browns have encountered this season. The media (looking at you Rizzo and Grossi) are placing the blame disproportionately on Farmer and glossing over Pettine's numerous mistakes. They're both new and inexperienced in their positions and will obviously make mistakes but blame needs to be spread equally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miktoxic Posted November 4, 2015 Report Share Posted November 4, 2015 Don't agree with everything in the article but this an alternative analysis of the difficulties the Browns have encountered this season. The media (looking at you Rizzo and Grossi) are placing the blame disproportionately on Farmer and glossing over Pettine's numerous mistakes. They're both new and inexperienced in their positions and will obviously make mistakes but blame needs to be spread equally. but everyone needs a chance to learn as they grow into these positions. hell if they hired you and expected no mistakes and got canned after a year and a half you'd say you got a raw deal. cinci doesn't do it. pitt doesn't do it. and even the ravens for how many years now? let's keep firing and hiring and show those other teams that consistently knock us down the basement steps that we know better than them!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clevfan4life Posted November 4, 2015 Report Share Posted November 4, 2015 1. the pope 2. samuel l. jackson 3. josh gordon. maybe? 1)nope 2)uh uh 3) how's it go? winner winner something dinner? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MDDawg Posted November 4, 2015 Author Report Share Posted November 4, 2015 but everyone needs a chance to learn as they grow into these positions. hell if they hired you and expected no mistakes and got canned after a year and a half you'd say you got a raw deal. cinci doesn't do it. pitt doesn't do it. and even the ravens for how many years now? let's keep firing and hiring and show those other teams that consistently knock us down the basement steps that we know better than them!!!! Agree that impulsive firing isn't the way to go but it appears to me that Farmer has the upper hand in that building ( Joe Thomas doesn't go on the trading block, without even informing Pettine is all the evidence you need) and he'll say he needs to appoint his own coach to prove his methods work (or fail). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thenew23 Posted November 4, 2015 Report Share Posted November 4, 2015 I do agree somewhat that Pettine hasn't exactly "been kind" to the guys with high talent levels, but less-than-ideal attitudes, while also being overly kind to the less talented guys who work hard... There are guys who do not excel at practice, but are absolute gamers when it counts. It just happens... Gordon being our most recent example... IF Farmer is supplying the talent, which is still arguable, and Pettine refuses to focus on developing those guys then it is fully on Pettine. Which may be true... The other side of the coin is Farmer is supplying garbage, and Pettine is doing his best to work with what he has... I honestly have heard too much from Pettine singing high praises of undrafted guys and glorified nobodys for their hard work and effort, while not praising the high draft picks and FAs. Maybe he has a "little man complex" and would rather give those "nobodys" a shot b/c they "earned it." I don't know, but if I have guys like Gilbert or Manziel, I would be trying to squeeze every bit of talent out of them rather than sticking them at the bottom of the depth chart and telling them they need to "work harder." Why?... Because talent wins in the NFL... Having a good attitude doesn't... or to put it another way, I'd rather have a group of guys who practice like sh** and win on Sundays, than a bunch of hard-working blue-collar guys who can't get the job done... any day... I'm not around the team everyday so I don't know what's true, but hopefully our owner is around enough to see what's going on and is able to get some good advice about what changes need to / should be made... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gipper Posted November 4, 2015 Report Share Posted November 4, 2015 1)nope 2)uh uh 3) how's it go? winner winner something dinner? Sushi.....sushi dinner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tour2ma Posted November 4, 2015 Report Share Posted November 4, 2015 I honestly have heard too much from Pettine singing high praises of undrafted guys and glorified nobodys for their hard work and effort, while not praising the high draft picks and FAs. Maybe he has a "little man complex" and would rather give those "nobodys" a shot b/c they "earned it." And right there is a deeper, more thoughtful paragraph than any in that so-called article... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canton Mike Posted November 4, 2015 Report Share Posted November 4, 2015 Just a thought after reading that article... At the Cards' game, season ticket holders were given Browns' Yearbooks. As I browsed through it (will have to look at it more closely), our coaching staff as a group is VERY inexperienced at the NFL level. I wonder if it might be a thought to bring in a Whisenhunt & a similar "NFL experienced" guy on the D side to "assist" our current Coordinators with planning & in teaching & developing all these young players. That way, both the players AND our young coordinators might accelerate their learning curves. Sort of OJT with mentors. Just more of an old man's out of the box thoughts. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mudfly Posted November 4, 2015 Report Share Posted November 4, 2015 Gotta say, Pettine seems to REALLY promote and compliment guys like Carder, Meder, D Winn & Solomon..... While not having much good to say about the silver spoons of a Manziel, Gilbert or Bowe.... Just a thought after reading that article.... I wonder if it might be a thought to bring in a Whisenhunt & a similar "NFL experienced" guy on the D side to "assist" our current Coordinators Good thought Mike......Chud was brought into Indy as an "Asst HC"....and now has stepped into the OC role..... Maybe we could use a similar guy here.....though Flip seems to be doing ok(now) and, Id think, Pet should be considered Oneils mentor.....(would be kinda weird to bring in another defensive mind, no?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canton Dawg Posted November 4, 2015 Report Share Posted November 4, 2015 I honestly have heard too much from Pettine singing high praises of undrafted guys and glorified nobodys for their hard work and effort, while not praising the high draft picks and FAs. Maybe he has a "little man complex" and would rather give those "nobodys" a shot b/c they "earned it."That is certainly a plausible theory. Another theory is the high draft picks just flat out suck, and Pettine has to rely on the nobody's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canton Dawg Posted November 4, 2015 Report Share Posted November 4, 2015 Here's another article about the lack of talent thanks to Ray Farmer. . . Ray Farmer, as it’s looking now, has had two fairly bad drafts in a row. His position with the franchise at this point should already be untenable. Don’t take my word for it, let’s take a look at the two drafts that Farmer has had full control over and the status of the players taken: Browns 2014 Draft Class: 1st Round (#8): CB Justin Gilbert: 3rd String Cornerback, Kick Returner 1st Round (#22): QB Johnny Manziel: Backup Quarterback 2nd Round (#35): OG Joel Bitonio: Starting Left Guard, Top 20 Guard Per PFF. 3rd Round (#71): ILB Christian Kirksey: Starting Inside Linebacker, Top Half Per PFF 3rd Round (#94): RB Terrance West: Traded To Titans where he is currently benched. 4th Round (#127): CB Pierre Desir: Backup Cornerback, has been a spot starter with Joe Haden constantly injured. So out of six draft picks used in 2014 this draft, two are starting. One is performing at a high level (Bitonio), one around average for his position in the NFL (Kirksey). Two are backups (Manziel & Desir), one is a monumental bust (Gilbert) and one was traded away for being such a nightmare in the locker room (West). Bottom line: One high level, impact starter so far out of six players. It’s worth noting that Farmer started this draft with 10 picks, and traded away or traded up to only take six players. Browns 2015 Draft Class: 1st Round (#12): NT Danny Shelton: Starting Nose Tackle, ranked last among starting defensive tackles per PFF. 1st Round (#19): OL Cameron Erving: Backup offensive linemen 2nd Round (#51): OLB Nate Orchard: Backup outside linebacker 3rd Round (#77): RB Duke Johnson: Backup running back, but is used in an effective manner 3rd Round (#96): DT Xavier Cooper: Rotational defensive lineman, 2nd string. 4th Round (#115): S Ibraheim Campbell: Backup safety 4th Round (#123): WR Vince Mayle: Cut before season began. 6th Round (#189): CB Charles Gaines: IR, designated to return 6th Round (#195): FB Malcolm Johnson: Starting FB, among lowest ranked in pass and run blocking both by PFF 6th Round (#198): TE Randall Telfer: IR 7th Round (#219): ILB Hayes Pullard: Signed off Browns practice squad by the Jaguars 7th Round (#241): CB Ifo Ekpre-Olomu: IR Bottom Line: While Danny Shelton is starting, it’s difficult to make the case that he’s an impact player at this point. The Cam Erving pick might look good in a few years, but it doesn’t take away from how terrible a practice it is to take backup/developmental players in the first round. Duke Johnson is really the only player from this class who really affected the outcome of games in a positive way at this point. Farmer started with 22 draft picks, and he got to pick 18 players in his two years as general manager. That is enough to reload and rebuild a franchise. Farmer could have put nearly half the players on the roster himself. The verdict here is a brutal one; out of 4 first round picks, only one is starting and he’s playing at a level comparable to the bottom players in the NFL at his position. Justin Gilbert is a total bust as a cornerback, Manziel and Erving backups. The West and Mayle picks are laughably awful. Joel Bitonio has been a stud, while Desir and Kirksey have been solid when they’ve played. Duke Johnson has shown flashes of excellence. Overall however, disappointment isn’t even a strong enough word for how badly Farmer whiffed with all those picks and how far back he has set this franchise through the draft. Rest of the article can be found here: http://www.dawgpoundnation.com/2015/11/02/all-roads-lead-back-to-ray-farmer-in-browns-failure/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miktoxic Posted November 4, 2015 Report Share Posted November 4, 2015 I wonder if it might be a thought to bring in a Whisenhunt & a similar "NFL experienced" guy on the D side to "assist" our current Coordinators with planning & in teaching & developing all these young players. That way, both the players AND our young coordinators might accelerate their learning curves. Sort of OJT with mentors. Just more of an old man's out of the box thoughts. Mike first thing i thought of when i heard about his firing yesterday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clevfan4life Posted November 4, 2015 Report Share Posted November 4, 2015 I honestly think scheme is more responsible for Sheltons lack of production than anything....he looks like he beats people badly when he wants to. But this read/react bullshit might have him out of position now more. In Hortons old one gap scheme I'd bet anything he'd menace backfields constantly. Yeah I get it, offense's can take advantage of overaggressive interior lineman. But fuck me at this point i'd rather see Shelton at or near the handoff. Just let the kid play. Let us see why we were all good with that 1st pick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miktoxic Posted November 4, 2015 Report Share Posted November 4, 2015 I honestly think scheme is more responsible for Sheltons lack of production than anything....he looks like he beats people badly when he wants to. But this read/react bullshit might have him out of position now more. In Hortons old one gap scheme I'd bet anything he'd menace backfields constantly. Yeah I get it, offense's can take advantage of overaggressive interior lineman. But fuck me at this point i'd rather see Shelton at or near the handoff. Just let the kid play. Let us see why we were all good with that 1st pick. well considering the OL coach for the other team says just double-team shelton and we have nothing to worry about....... no run blocking, no running backs, no pass rush, no pass rushers......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gipper Posted November 4, 2015 Report Share Posted November 4, 2015 That is certainly a plausible theory. Another theory is the high draft picks just flat out suck, and Pettine has to rely on them. That our high draft picks just flat out suck has gone far beyond theory. Like the theories that the earth was round, that there are black holes, and the Big Bang Theory.....it is a proven theory. And it most closely represents the theory about black holes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tour2ma Posted November 4, 2015 Report Share Posted November 4, 2015 Here's another article about the lack of talent thanks to Ray Farmer. . . Rest of the article can be found here: http://www.dawgpoundnation.com/2015/11/02/all-roads-lead-back-to-ray-farmer-in-browns-failure/ Very similar to the take I posted a couple days ago, but I gave some consideration to Farmer being on the job only a short period before the 2014 draft. But bottom line is Ray has not yet hit upon a true impact player yet. One, or more, may yet emerge out of his drafts, but none as of yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mudfly Posted November 4, 2015 Report Share Posted November 4, 2015 Scientific theory needs to be tested, before its considered "proven" And our players havent really been tested......so nothing has been proven..... Heck, if it was "proven" that they sucked, they'd be gone....right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gipper Posted November 4, 2015 Report Share Posted November 4, 2015 Scientific theory needs to be tested, before its considered "proven" And our players havent really been tested......so nothing has been proven..... Heck, if it was "proven" that they sucked, they'd be gone....right? West, Mayle both gone. Most others not being productive. But then, some of that may be poor direction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mudfly Posted November 4, 2015 Report Share Posted November 4, 2015 West, Mayle both gone. Most others not being productive. Oh....I thought you said our high draft picks....and that they "flat out suck" vs not being productive(or even tested) That our high draft picks just flat out suck has gone far beyond theory. Oh....wait....you did..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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