A Compromise to Change and Continuity

[gftChris]

TLDR...

[jiggins7919]

 

Mudfly...not sure why you get so animated.

Animated?.....not sure what that means, as Ive always thought I was one of the more reasonable posters.....just trying to respondto your many many long long comments.....unless, of course you dont want discussion or counter points and would rather just be blah blah blah....

 

The NFL is all about making adjustments. So if our talent was adequate two years ago, just what has changed?

Im certainly not convinced it was adequate.....we were 4-12 if you remember......

 

While not stellar, it seemed that our pass rush was better last year, so why did that change?

I just gave you a very convincing argument on why it changed(at least my perspective)....no need for me to do it again.....

 

Yes, we've had injuries, but that happens to most teams every year.

Yes it does. And when teams lose their better players, they usually experience diminished results and performance from those who fill in. We are no different.

 

So is it Farmer's responsibility to have the team better stocked, or is it Pettine's fault for not preparing them better?

Yes it is. And he gets 7 picks a year, plus whatever FA's are out there. So, in 2 years, he has replaced about 40 out of 53 players in an attempt to get better. But, I dont know of many GM's that can completely flip a less than average roster into a great roster in 2 seasons.....

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There is something wrong with our scheme, especially against the run. It's been talked about on several articles, as our players have said things like "we aren't sure what to do", and "imagine trying to define mud." Our players aren't always sure what gap to attack, and when there is indecision, the players aren't attacking as quickly as they should be.

You mean our LB's, dont you?...If they dont know where to go, maybe they arent paying attention. They sure didnt say this last year and the only ones saying it now are the guys who cant get it done....basically Kruger & Mingo. Watch them play....its not scheme thats causing them to miss tackle after tackle and, basically, get owned on every play....its talent, execution and effort....

 

I see your point about the injuries to our pass defense. Losing Haden, Whitner, Williams, and Gipson is a lot for any team to shoulder, but why is the run defense STILL so awful? If it was awful last year, worse this year, and our players are about the same...is it just because we lack talent, or is there a way to schematically make it better?

Here's an example....our DB's are hurting and the back ups(Bademosi, Poyer, Desir, etc) are getting beat. So.....we gotta adjust to get them help. That means a LB might have to cover....or a safety might stay back an extra couple of seconds....and that takes away from the rush defense. And that works both ways....we bring guys up(like we did last year) and it leaves the CB's alone(which you were complaining about in a previous post).....Technically, our run isnt worse this year(it's about the same actually), but we dont have the pass D we had last year.....and finally...YES...right now, it looks to me like we lack the talent to be a solid defense.....great LB's can cover, rush or play the run.......good LB's can do at least 2 of those things.....our LB's mostly do one thing....so they are exposed and not happy about it....so, a guy like Kruger, who only knows how to rush, is gonna complain that the coaches are putting him in position to fail, because they've asked him to play the run or cover a TE.....thats on Kruger, not the Coaches....

 

 

For example, Pettine was groomed by Rex Ryan. Ryan has about the most expensive defensive line in the league, and it's full of talent, yet they give up 24 points a game. I understand that the DL is one component of a defense, but Rex runs a similar system, and they're giving up a bunch of points. So isn't that proof that maybe it's time to make SOME kind of philosophical change on defense?

Wait....what???.....because Pettine is from the Ryan tree and Ryans D isnt doing well this year, that is proof that Pettine needs to change his philosophy??.......thats a crazy argument....so, no....Ryans team isnt proof of anything here....2 separate unrelated entities....

 

You can't blame the coach for injuries, that's just ridiculous. What really worries me is that the defense is seriously flawed, but nobody really seems to know WHY.

And you do?......and since no one knows, we'll just fire the DC and change the philosophy we've been successful with?.....again....you're not making much sense here(honestly)...

 

Pettine himself has said he's scratching his head in regard to the chunk plays and the poor play. There really isn't one thing you can point to and say, "AHA! This is the problem we must fix!"

Thats because it isnt one thing....and thats what Pettine has been saying. One game its the run D....another game its penalties.....we stop the run perfectly for 2 qtrs, then allow it to blow up in the third.....so every game, when they review film, its something new....someone missing their spot....someone getting a penalty....etc etc.....if it was just one thing, it would be fixed by now.....

 

and it's much easier to blame the coach than to look in the mirror and say "It's my fault."

There it is....and the guys belly aching only started recently....when THEIR play was being questioned....and unlike those players, Pettine is actually willing to stand up and say "I and WE have to get better"....but guys like Kruger aint saying that....and if they cant accept they need to play better and i they cant buy into the system, then how will that work out???

 

I'm not saying we need to reinvent the wheel or anything, but the definition of insanity is doing the same , thing over and over and expecting a different result.

Again....I see us making adjustments.....but when we do, everyone starts crying why are we doing that??.... And if you have an extended history of success within a system, why would you change it and go to something you dont have faith in?.....when you do something over and over with other players and get GOOD results, then do you change it the second it doesnt work?.....or stick with what you know works until they get it right?

 

Maybe you're right...maybe it IS a severe talent deficiency, but the NFL, more than any other professional sport, promotes parity.

Ha...NFL promotes parity, which means all teams have equal talent?.......I dont think so....

 

Ill say it again....we need better players and we need our DB's back.....Armonty, Mingo & Kruger are not high caliber LB's and wouldnt even start on most other teams(and LB is the heart of any defense).....We also replaced 1/2 of our D line this year, which is a sign the FO doent think the talent was there either....they took a step in the right direction, but w/o help from the LB's, you cant stop the run....period....And if the LB's cant cover anyone either(w/o crying), then you cant stop the pass either....

 

So....like I said way way earlier......changing the DC and/or scheme probably will not get you much better results..... add some talent at LB and get our DB's back and things will change for the better....

 

And dump those guys who are bucking the system and pointing fingersbecause they are counter productive to what the team is trying to accomplish....if they aren't gonna buy into the system, then there is ZERO chance they will improve.

 

 

 

 

Pass rushers are among the most coveted positions in football, so simply "adding" talent would be nice, but not exactly the easiest thing to do. We drafted Nate Orchard for that reason, and by no means would I label the guy a bust after 10 games, but he certainly isn't blowing anyone's doors off. The poor play of our DB's might have some to do with our lack of pressure, but that can't account for every bit of our ineptitude. The so called "coverage sacks" certainly aren't happening for us, but neither are any other kind. For example, there were several sacks by Pittsburgh that happened almost immediately. How many of THOSE do we get? Can nobody on our team beat their counterpart a few times a game and come up with a big play? Did Kruger lose all of his talent in one year?

 

I think just about everyone on the planet will agree that we need more talent, but I stand by my point about the scheme being deficient. This isn't just me saying this, just today on our radio show a caller brought up this point and the hosts of our show, including a former NFL LB, said that Rex Ryan, Rob Ryan, and Mike Pettine run similar defenses, and what do they have in common? Their defenses are terrible. Matt Wilhelm stated that in the NFL, like many things in life, will let you get away with things until the opposition catches up. He used the "read option" as an example, and you can probably throw in the "wild cat" as well. Schemes and philosophies will work until someone figures out how to best it, and then other teams will copy it. The NFL is a copycat league. Additionally, part of Pettine's scheme revolves around having corners play a bunch of press man coverage, and that style is somewhat nullified by the NFL's fondness of offense, and how the refs will officiate the game. That's why you see the pass interference calls, the defensive holdings...because our DB's know that they probably don't have help over the top, and if they give up the catch, it's going to go a long ways. So what do you do? You evolve. You adapt. You mold your game plan around the talent that you have, not the talent you wish you did, or what you had when you were healthy.

 

And back to your point about adding talent...we all WISH we had more talent, and what concerns a lot of fans is the fact that the guy we have in place tasked with finding this talent, hasn't exactly lit it up. His philosophy on how WR's aren't as valuable as other positions has certainly burned us. We missed out on the best WR class in recent memory, and then the next year we picked a guy in Mayle that was labeled by some draft niks as one of the worst picks in the entire draft. I'm not unrealistic, and Farmer has definitely found some diamonds in the rough, but he's missing on impact players, and that's what is really hurting us. But again, I have heard that it takes about 3 years to truly evaluate a draft, so using that mantra, perhaps it's too early to completely judge Farmer. Wouldn't it be great if we knew for a fact that our first rounders would work out? But we don't, and with Justin Gilbert being a healthy scratch at the #8 position, would you want to trust a super high pick to Farmer again? Is it fair to judge a GM after one perceived bust?

 

What really concerns the Browns fans I speak with is the direction our team is heading. It'd be one thing if we're losing close games, or our injuries are making one aspect of the game stick out, or we're making some kind of progress but can't get over the hump. But we've lost 13-15, and as you said, it's not just one thing. Terrible penalties, giving up huge runs, not getting off the field on 3rd down, getting burned by the deep ball, awful red zone offense, no running game, no pass rush, etc. We are in deep trouble as a franchise, and I don't think it's as easy as adding more talent. But obviously nobody knows. If you feel that the scheme is fine, that is your opinion and I respect that. But I think it's flawed, and it certainly isn't just me. Our radio hosts, our players, and some of the fans that called in all feel the same way. Our defensive coordinator stated in an interview that they will try to simplify some things over the bye week, who knows, maybe that'll help the team play faster. But we can't really change the talent we have right now. We have to play the hand that we're dealt.

[Mudfly]

But we can't really change the talent we have right now. We have to play the hand that we're dealt.

....as does the coaching staff......

[jiggins7919]

One of our best chances to win comes this Monday. I'd be very surprised if we didn't play well (or at least better than we have been). Monday night, against the Ravens, and Johnny has time and plenty of practice reps as the starter. If we can score 7 instead of 3 (or none) in the red zone, I think we win. Like you said, we have to play the hand we're dealt. Let's play it well.

[browns52]

 

and they're 2-8. so i guess they shoulda drafted some OL along the way huh? cuz mariota didn't have time to scratch his balls let alone throw any tonite......dumbass.

woweee zowee. Two 2-8 teams. heh heh heh. The clowns and the tit ins...2 powerhouses of the nfl...heh heh heh..