Climate Change for Heck

[Westside Steve]

So I thought I'd giive this a new thread as the other one was so much of a potpourrie.

We can ignore the other part about me "hating everybody."

 

 

Heck:

 

Try this, Steve. Instead of hating everyone involved, let us know how you'd:

 

- Address the issue of global climate change/develop alternative sources of energy that are cleaner

 

Two concerns here.

First I just don't accept your idea that global warming is a big threat.

Could mankind have an effect? Sure, probably.

How much and how much can we change it?

Probably either very little or not at all, so, as I see it, draconian measures aren't needed.

 

(I once posted an entire list of things we could do if the situation were as dire as some say, but you dismissed them out of hand.

If you recall it included a ban on leisure travel, a near ban on heating and cooling homes and eliminating animal products from food and clothing.)

 

But since I don't accept the premise that it's a crisis, I'd let the market do as it will.

 

- Lessen the US dependence on foreign oil/move us toward energy independence

 

Good idea actually.

But further crippling the US economy and business will (IMO) drive more offshore where the beneficiaries will not likely turn down the windfall.

But I do think as the market works more useful technology should emerge.

More nuke plants should be built today, US interim drilling and we SHOULD start the switch from incandescent lighting to LED for streets stadiums malls schools homes etc etc etc.

I like what I see of the Pickens plan too.

 

But:

 

Combining hysteria with politics is a bad idea.

Imagine if bureaucrats had decided which digital media the music industry shoud have used.

There are probably dozens of formats that failed on their own.

Like ethanol should have.

 

 

 

Obviously, these are terribly complicated, but just try some broad strokes. What policies do you favor?

 

It is and it isn't terribly complicated and I doubt you have any better understanding than anyone you insult.

 

Example:

There is a distinct possibility that at some time an asteroid will hit earth.

Lets say the two parties both have massive and expensive programs to avert that possibility.

Shall we say that I don't think there's much chance of changing the earths orbit, so I really don't have an alternative plan.

But that doesn't mean the other plan is worth much, and whatever pain it causes is wasted.

 

And we've been over the fact that I don't see the environmentalist "plan" as being potentially worthwhile.

We can rehash if need be.

 

And we've been over the personal part, so lets not bother with it.

 

But do try to understand that when the same guys who are predicting disaster are the same ones who incorrectly predicted the "tipping point" deadline and stated that the events in THE DAY AFTER TOMORROW actually could happen I'm even more inclined to think it's all bullshit.

 

WSS

[calfoxwc]

Because of the sun's phasing down the # of solar flares, the earth has been cooling for about 10 years.

 

It isn't because we are driving less, or heating our homes less, etc.

 

It's purely a dramatic and dishonest political maneuver to try to use economics as a weapon to put

coal companies out of business in creating electicity with no alternative established...

 

Go ahead and push millions of homeowners to buy wood buring furnaces and fireplace inserts to

 

not have to burn coal with extremely expensive scrubbers in their smokestacks.

 

It makes no sense to me at all.

[Guest mz.]

Because of the sun's phasing down the # of solar flares, the earth has been cooling for about 10 years.

 

Not true. It's due to God fanning us with a huge palm frond.

 

Are you so against the idea of man's role that you'll say just about anything??

[Westside Steve]

Not true. It's due to God fanning us with a huge palm frond.

 

Are you so against the idea of man's role that you'll say just about anything??

 

 

Are you so infected by the Kool Aid that you DON"T believe in the scientific proof that solare flare not only occur but effedct the earth's climate as well?

 

WSS

[Kosar_For_President]

Are you so infected by the Kool Aid that you DON"T believe in the scientific proof that solare flare not only occur but effedct the earth's climate as well?

 

WSS

 

Every post = LAME for the West Side Stooge

[Westside Steve]

Every post = LAME for the West Side Stooge

 

 

So do you disagree or just witless as usual?

WSS

[Kosar_For_President]

So do you disagree or just witless as usual?

WSS

 

Yea you must be drinking Kool Aid, darrrrrrrrrr.

 

Now I get it, look at the resemblance. OH YEA.....

 

[Guest mz.]

Are you so infected by the Kool Aid that you DON"T believe in the scientific proof that solare flare not only occur but effedct the earth's climate as well?

 

WSS

 

All I need to do is look out an airplane window every time I return to LA to know we're complicit in xxxxing this place up. Digging up bullshit on solar flares and styrofoam ice caps just delays something being done about the problem.

 

PS Idiots talk about others' "drinking koolaid" BTW. More intelligent folks actually try to support their argument. Keep that in mind...

[Kosar_For_President]

Oh yea...

 

WSS

[Westside Steve]

All I need to do is look out an airplane window every time I return to LA to know we're complicit in xxxxing this place up. Digging up bullshit on solar flares and styrofoam ice caps just delays something being done about the problem.

 

PS Idiots talk about others' "drinking koolaid" BTW. More intelligent folks actually try to support their argument. Keep that in mind...

 

 

Again, Mr "support the argument."

Solar activity effects the earth's temperature.

True or False?

 

mz the pussy flying in airplanes is killing the planet.

He knows it but doesn't care.

True of False?

 

WSS

[choco]

All I need to do is look out an airplane window every time I return to LA to know we're complicit in xxxxing this place up.

yet, all that does is show you what we have done. it does nothing to show you what is going on within the climate....the reactions of pollutants and other gasses that occur on the atomic scale. so in other words, this is merely an observation that you deduce....or otherwise assume, ideas about. has nothing to do with science, only your indoctrination and what your told to think or feel.

 

Digging up bullshit on solar flares and styrofoam ice caps just delays something being done about the problem.

yet, you choose to ignore known, scientifically proven alternatives that also have a say in our global climate. there's many factors that affect our planet.....you'r just trying to place blame to get your way. sorry, get reputable science or go away. im a member of the scientific community, so your bullshit "consensus" doesn't fly with me. there is no consensus....yet.

 

PS Idiots talk about others' "drinking koolaid" BTW. More intelligent folks actually try to support their argument. Keep that in mind...

seems you forgot about this as well. looking out a window of a plane is hardly proof of anything other than youre not scared to fly. why are you flying anyway? you know how much gas that burns? the poor environment cannot stand your flying habits mz the pussy. time for a new job where you dont have to travel.

 

 

since there's no "proof" needed by the scientific community to determine the cause of whatever problem your clamoring about, its kinda hard to reach a consensus. its widely known that acting without a full understanding of the problem can just as easily make things worse (regarding any scientific theories), so why is there such a push to do "something"......even when we dont know what that something should be.....

 

or, is it that libs just wanna clamp the economy with environmental bullshit before the public throws their asses out in 2 years? there is no such thing as rushing science.....what makes science good is the fact that we make EDUCATED decisions....not shoot from the hip. and even so, its those outside of the scientific community that are advocating shit which they cannot even fathom, let alone understand. armchair QB'ing is perhaps an analogy you'll understand.

[Kosar_For_President]

Just to add something to the argument.

 

STUDY

[choco]

"They base their findings on computer models of climate, and on measurements of temperature in the oceans."

 

 

the most important sentence is in the first paragraph. findings based on MODELS......wanna provide something....ya know, like proof? anyone can develop a model to output whatever they want. since they can't even use these models to produce our current climate conditions, you really think there is any accuracy here?

 

"Computer climate models have grown much more sophisticated over the years. But there are still problems modelling some atmospheric processes, notably heat convection within clouds. "

 

next to last paragraph.......i dont suppose this could enduce any error into a heat calculation........

 

next?

 

 

[Kosar_For_President]

"They base their findings on computer models of climate, and on measurements of temperature in the oceans."

 

 

the most important sentence is in the first paragraph. findings based on MODELS......wanna provide something....ya know, like proof? anyone can develop a model to output whatever they want. since they can't even use these models to produce our current climate conditions, you really think there is any accuracy here?

 

"Computer climate models have grown much more sophisticated over the years. But there are still problems modelling some atmospheric processes, notably heat convection within clouds. "

 

next to last paragraph.......i dont suppose this could enduce any error into a heat calculation........

 

next?

 

Um, Choco, nice jump to conclusions. I wasn't implying anything for either argument. Calm down there numb nuts.

 

 

[Guest mz.]

It's so fun posting around here. Nobody ever reads what you write...they just call it all Lib Shit...

 

I'm gonna go with "God Farted" explanation from now on.

 

...

[Kosar_For_President]

Hence the reason for West Side Kool Aid Guy (look above), it's boooorrrriiiinnggg in here. I can post something agreeing with someone and they will still argue it.

[Mr. T]

It's so fun posting around here. Nobody ever reads what you write...they just call it all Lib Shit...

 

I'm gonna go with "God Farted" explanation from now on.

 

...

 

So thats you're explanation for methane gas?

 

To me the whole global warming Al Gore Shit is nothing more than a bull shit report to loot U.S. tax dollars and control whats left of our industry.

 

[Kosar_For_President]

So thats you're explanation for methane gas?

 

To me the whole global warming Al Gore Shit is nothing more than a bull shit report to loot U.S. tax dollars and control whats left of our industry.

 

 

Could be, but since we don't have any industry left, would this be a bad thing. I can guess there were a bunch of people in the 90's that said that this internet craze is not going to stay too.

[Guest mz.]

To me the whole global warming Al Gore Shit is nothing more than a bull shit report to loot U.S. tax dollars and control whats left of our industry.

 

That's a very educated and well thought-out statement.

 

And people here wonder why some folks left...

 

[Westside Steve]

That's a very educated and well thought-out statement.

 

And people here wonder why some folks left...

 

Not really.

Look back to see when this post got stupid.

Post # 3.

 

None of your replies are to the point.

Neither are KFPs but we know he's an idiot.

 

WSS

[Guest mz.]

It's called EXASPERATION, Steve.

[calfoxwc]

mz the pussy, seriously. I can back up my sentiments. I just found this editorial.

 

Can you just once back up your assertions with some relevant information?

 

If not, it's no wonder that people left. Their assertions were not based on reason

 

and scientific information, but on the false premises (see "Politically spawned) like

 

Al Gore's biased and inaccurate movie. And it WAS styrofoam. want me to back that up?

**********************************************

Get all exasperated, but read this:

 

ttp://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2008/01/06/br_r_r_where_did_global_warming_go/

 

Br-r-r! Where did global warming go?

By Jeff Jacoby

Globe Columnist / January 6, 2008

THE STARK headline appeared just over a year ago. "2007 to be 'warmest on record,' " BBC News reported on Jan. 4, 2007. Citing experts in the British government's Meteorological Office, the story announced that "the world is likely to experience the warmest year on record in 2007," surpassing the all-time high reached in 1998.

 

more stories like thisBut a funny thing happened on the way to the planetary hot flash: Much of the planet grew bitterly cold.

 

In South America, for example, the start of winter last year was one of the coldest ever observed. According to Eugenio Hackbart, chief meteorologist of the MetSul Weather Center in Brazil, "a brutal cold wave brought record low temperatures, widespread frost, snow, and major energy disruption." In Buenos Aires, it snowed for the first time in 89 years, while in Peru the cold was so intense that hundreds of people died and the government declared a state of emergency in 14 of the country's 24 provinces. In August, Chile's agriculture minister lamented "the toughest winter we have seen in the past 50 years," which caused losses of at least $200 million in destroyed crops and livestock.

 

Latin Americans weren't the only ones shivering.

 

University of Oklahoma geophysicist David Deming, a specialist in temperature and heat flow, notes in the Washington Times that "unexpected bitter cold swept the entire Southern Hemisphere in 2007." Johannesburg experienced its first significant snowfall in a quarter-century. Australia had its coldest ever June. New Zealand's vineyards lost much of their 2007 harvest when spring temperatures dropped to record lows.

 

Closer to home, 44.5 inches of snow fell in New Hampshire last month, breaking the previous record of 43 inches, set in 1876. And the Canadian government is forecasting the coldest winter in 15 years.

 

Now all of these may be short-lived weather anomalies, mere blips in the path of the global climatic warming that Al Gore and a host of alarmists proclaim the deadliest threat we face. But what if the frigid conditions that have caused so much distress in recent months signal an impending era of global cooling?

 

"Stock up on fur coats and felt boots!" advises Oleg Sorokhtin, a fellow of the Russian Academy of Natural Sciences and senior scientist at Moscow's Shirshov Institute of Oceanography. "The latest data . . . say that earth has passed the peak of its warmer period, and a fairly cold spell will set in quite soon, by 2012."

 

Sorokhtin dismisses the conventional global warming theory that greenhouse gases, especially human-emitted carbon dioxide, is causing the earth to grow hotter. Like a number of other scientists, he points to solar activity - sunspots and solar flares, which wax and wane over time - as having the greatest effect on climate.

 

"Carbon dioxide is not to blame for global climate change," Sorokhtin writes in an essay for Novosti. "Solar activity is many times more powerful than the energy produced by the whole of humankind." In a recent paper for the Danish National Space Center, physicists Henrik Svensmark and Eigil Friis-Christensen concur: "The sun . . . appears to be the main forcing agent in global climate change," they write.

 

Given the number of worldwide cold events, it is no surprise that 2007 didn't turn out to be the warmest ever. In fact, 2007's global temperature was essentially the same as that in 2006 - and 2005, and 2004, and every year back to 2001. The record set in 1998 has not been surpassed. For nearly a decade now, there has been no global warming. Even though atmospheric carbon dioxide continues to accumulate - it's up about 4 percent since 1998 - the global mean temperature has remained flat. That raises some obvious questions about the theory that CO2 is the cause of climate change.

 

Yet so relentlessly has the alarmist scenario been hyped, and so disdainfully have dissenting views been dismissed, that millions of people assume Gore must be right when he insists: "The debate in the scientific community is over."

 

But it isn't. Just last month, more than 100 scientists signed a strongly worded open letter pointing out that climate change is a well-known natural phenomenon, and that adapting to it is far more sensible than attempting to prevent it. Because slashing carbon dioxide emissions means Retarding economic development, they warned, "the current UN approach of CO2 reduction is likely to increase human suffering from future climate change rather than to decrease it."

 

Climate science isn't a religion, and those who dispute its leading theory are not heretics. Much remains to be learned about how and why climate changes, and there is neither virtue nor wisdom in an emotional rush to counter global warming - especially if what's coming is a global Big Chill.

 

 

 

 

[Guest mz.]

What's really the point in discussing this with you any longer?

[Westside Steve]

What's really the point in discussing this with you any longer?

 

 

I haven't heard you discuss anything mz the pussy.

 

As to the "exasperation" remark how do you get exasperated after two posts on a subject?

Heck had actually asked me what I thought and I did so honestly and without name calling.

 

I do that more than I get credit for and yes I'm also a smart ass, though I try to be a little humorous.

 

But it's not like I get a lot of thoughtful responses saying I'm wrong.

I don't even get funny responses.

 

I think you need to step up, Tell me why my thoughts on global warming are incorrect.

I don't expect an intelligent response from, well you know who they are.

 

WSS

[Guest mz.]

We've discussedthis in the other million GW threads. And it's not two posts, Steve. It's more like two years of posts.

 

Banging one's head against a wall eventually loses its appeal.

[calfoxwc]

Come on, mz the pussy. All you've done on this subject ever, is to rattle off one liners that are

straight from moveonupObama'sleg.orgy.

 

SERIOUSLY, though, you need to explain WHY you don't agree with what other folks are saying

about this subject.

 

Where are your LEGIT reasons for believing in man-made global warming, and why do you

completely run and hide from the legit reasons some of us keep coming up with?

 

PS: It's isn't valid to come up again with Shep's "the debate is over".

 

Deal with the reality that the debate is heightening, and you could be very much on

the wrong side of this issue.

[Mr. T]

For those who feel that global warming is caused by greenhouse gases, you need to realize that Carbon dioxide, the primary greenhouse gas produced is not a toxic pollutant.

[Legacy Fan]

*sigh*

[choco]

It's so fun posting around here. Nobody ever reads what you write...they just call it all Lib Shit...

whats the matter.....you into selective reading now? or you afraid to discuss this with someone who might know science.

 

i dont see many bright, important revelations in any of you one-liners. so why dont we call this like it is....

 

 

you're simply regurgitating the moveon.org talking points and other bits you pick up else where because sadly, you know absolutely nothing about the subject matter to look at it objectively. its a complex science, and not so easily summed up by these nice little article from fringe scientists that dont follow scientific procedure to publish findings. the only reason to push such complicated theories thru would be to enact legislation BEFORE the science is able to identify the real process....and we do it under the guise of "THE SKY IS FALLING". science is not constrained by time.....science only wants the right answer...no matter how long it takes. politicains.....on the other hand, have a need for urgency. urgency helps get slight-of-hand legislation thru before those with enough intelligence to process the bill find out.

 

 

so mz the pussy........think you can talk substance here? dont say no one wants to talk substance when you completely ignore my comment......

[Guest mz.]

*doublesigh*