How did Savage leave Browns heading into draft?

[plumcrazy73]

How did Savage leave Browns heading into draft?

 

http://www.cantonrep.com/sports/x549604512...ding-into-draft

 

By Steve Doerschuk

CantonRep.com staff report

Posted Apr 10, 2009 @ 10:02 PM

 

Two weeks out from the draft, the picks former Browns General Manager Phil Savage made during the last four years come into focus.

 

Did he leave the Browns enough to salvage 2009?

 

Before he let Savage go, as a lost 2008 season was nearing an end, Browns owner Randy Lerner was asked if he thinks 2009 could be a playoff year.

 

“Yeah,” Lerner said hen, “I sense that it could be.”

 

The hope, he said, owed partly to a strong group of players.

 

“I think that Phil recruits as aggressively as anybody could ever ask a guy to do, and as thoroughly, and I think we’ve been the beneficiary of those skills and that determination and that commitment,” Lerner said.

 

The recruiting aspect is linked to signing free agents, making trades and scouting draft candidates.

 

Almost everyone, Lerner included, agrees that foundations are built through the draft. The ability of a new head coach-general manager tandem to use this month’s draft toward winning in 2009 is linked to Savage’s work in the previous four Aprils.

 

A fair evaluation can come only through an itemized review of Savage’s picks. Here is one look toward that end.

 

Impact players

 

OT JOE THOMAS The 2007 No. 3 overall pick has made two Pro Bowls. In an era when more athletic left tackles are entering the league than ever, Thomas needs a big third season to keep proving he is worth the bucks.

 

KR-PR JOSHUA CRIBBS It’s not as if Savage saw this guy coming. After all, he could have secured Cribbs late in 2005 rather than taking linebacker Nick Speegle or tackle Jonathan Dunn. But the fact remains: Savage got Cribbs in the door.

 

Million-dollar questions

 

QB BRADY QUINN He cost the Browns a first- and a second-round pick. The Browns in ‘09 might hinge on whether he was worth it.

 

LB KAMERION WIMBLEY He has improved as a run defender and coverage man, but he needs to get a life as a pass rusher in his fourth season.

 

WR BRAYLON EDWARDS A star when his head is on straight, but it wasn’t in 2008, and no one knows what went first, the head or the hands.

 

Dependable starters

 

LB D’QWELL JACKSON He will never be a star, but he’ll be a 10-year pro. He’ll also benefit if the line meshes better this year with Robaire Smith and Corey Williams healthy.

 

CB ERIC WRIGHT He is emerging as one of the top young cover men in the league (just ask him). Brash can be good in a cornerback. He needs to tackle better.

 

Upside specials

 

FS BRODNEY POOL As athletic as the great safeties, he has lacked the ferocity and consistency to be elite. If Mangini, who came up as a defensive secondary coach, can light a fire, a breakthrough seems possible.

 

RB JEROME HARRISON The last Brown to score an offensive TD — seven games ago.

 

FB LAWRENCE VICKERS The Pro Bowl alternate in 2007 lost four games to injuries in 2008. He’s just 24.

 

On the spot

 

CB BRANDON McDONALD He had a breakthrough game against Houston’s Andre Johnson in 2007 and was pressed into starting duty in ‘08. He was erratic as a starter but was lucky to get the experience. It gave him a chance to show he is capable of staying in the league for several years.

 

OLB ALEX HALL Alex Hall He had three sacks in three games before opponents figured him out, holding him sackless in the next 10 games

 

 

The young, forgotten

 

ILB Beau Bell, TE Martin Rucker, DL Ahtyba Rubin and WR Paul Hubbard were last year’s top four draft picks. Only Rubin made more than a cameo appearance, emerging as a No. 5 or No. 6 type in a defensive line rotation. With the departure of Andra Davis, Kellen Winslow Jr. and possibly Braylon Edwards and Donté Stallworth, the other three can fill needs.

 

 

Hanging on

 

Role players who might be on the bubble as to making the team include:

 

LB LEON WILLIAMS He ranked fifth on the team in tackles in 2007 but faded in ‘08.

 

OL ISAAC SOWELLS A special-teamer who seldom appeared on the line.

 

WR SYNDRIC STEPTOE In five starts, he caught 10 passes for 57 yards.

 

 

TRADE WINDS

 

To acquire the No. 22 spot in the 2007 draft and pick Quinn, Savage gave up that year’s Round 2 pick and a first-rounder in 2008.

 

The Browns would have picked at No. 22 in ’08, when running backs went back-to-back-to-back — Felix Jones to Dallas, Rashard Mendenhall to Pittsburgh and Chris Johnson to Tennessee. Savage liked Mendenhall a lot. Johnson became a big star as a rookie.

 

The Browns would have picked at No. 36 in the 2008 second-round. Some real talent was still there, most notably pass-rushing 3-4 linebacker LaMarr Woodley, who went to Pittsburgh at No. 46.

 

Savage acquired the No. 53 overall pick in 2007 by sending Dallas No. 67 and No. 103 picks. He spent the No. 53 pick on cornerback Eric Wright.

 

Savage sent last year’s Round 2 pick to Green Bay for defensive lineman Corey Williams. He shipped a third-round pick to Detroit in the Shaun Rogers deal.

 

Savage parted with Butch Davis’ 2004 fourth-round pick, QB Luke McCown, for a Round 6 pick in 2006. He spent it on lineman Andrew Hoffman, who never panned out.

 

Savage gained a fourth-round pick in 2006 when he shipped 2003 third-round pick to Atlanta. He spent the pick on Sowells, who is still on the team but has been a nonfactor.

 

In a 2006 draft day trade, Savage traded down with Baltimore, going from No. 12 overall to No. 13. He acquired a sixth-round pick and spent it on nose tackle Babatunde Oshinowo. Baba went bye-bye soon enough. Savage should have stayed at 12 and grabbed a real nose tackle, Haloti Ngata, who has helped the Ravens.

 

In another 2006 draft-day trade, Savage sent 2003 first-round pick Jeff Faine to the Saints so he could move up in Round 2, to No. 34. He used the pick on linebacker D’Qwell Jackson.

 

[listercat]

Wow; that is not a pretty picture of Savage to say the least....sigh

[ImpactPlaya]

Phil Savage will never be a GM in the NFL again. He set this franchise back farther than Butch Davis did. Butch for all his shortcomings drafted better. Phil Savage comes and blows everything up in 2005.

Savage over valued himself and got worked on draft day by other teams..

If you go over to Dawgtalkers.net some still think Phil Savage did a good job with the Browns.

[samoth]

Savage made some boneheaded trades but he did far more in terms of brining in talented players than Butch ever did. Without Savage we never would have gotten Shaun Rogers, though I guess it can be argued that Savage cost us Ngata.

[NebBrownsFan]

Phil Savage will never be a GM in the NFL again. He set this franchise back farther than Butch Davis did. Butch for all his shortcomings drafted better. Phil Savage comes and blows everything up in 2005.

Savage over valued himself and got worked on draft day by other teams..

If you go over to Dawgtalkers.net some still think Phil Savage did a good job with the Browns.

 

You pretty much lost most people with "Butch for all his shortcomings drafted better.". Which Butch were you watching on draft day?

[We need Tom Tupa]

I think it's a little early to be judging his drafts. We obviously have no clue how last year's class will pan out, Quinn's make or break year has yet to arrive, and we know that many of those guys were playing under a coach that didn't want them.

 

His non-draft moves look sold to me:

 

We have Rogers. Shaun Rogers. And we pay him the same as Marcus Stroud. Sounds good to me. We gave up Bodden, but he immediately signed the fat deal that we didnt want to give him, and then he got cut from the 0-16 Lions. So it was a 3rd round pick for Shaun Rogers. I make that trade anytime.

 

Steinbach has shown that he was the best available o-lineman of 2007, maybe of the past few years overall. Savage gave him a new deal that looked big at the time but is the minimum salary for his position now. The Bills signed Derrick Dockery that same month for the same money. And then cut him this year.

 

Corey Williams is a question mark. He played hurt all last year and in a new system.

 

Jamal Lewis was a huge pickup in '07. He clearly dropped off a bit last year, but was still the most dependable rusher we've had in a long time.

 

Stallworth was a bust.

 

Schaffer was overpaid, but played very well the last two seasons at RT.

 

Haley was a very shrewd pickup after LCB went down.

 

He wasnt perfect, and probably wasnt the best in the league. But we've been over this 100 different ways, and he was not a bad GM. He drafted as well as almost anyone in the league, made more good than bad FA pickups, and left us with a better team than we started with, despite all the injuries suffered during his tenure.

[ballpeen]

I think Phils problem was his wheeling and dealing.

 

It excited the fans, but it took away from what he did best by taking away picks.

 

 

Bottom line is IMO Phil wanted to be the face of the organization. He felt with his ability to evaluate college talent, all he had to do after that was to be a shrewd wheeler and dealer and he would have it all.

 

In the end, the ego that compelled him to want to be the focus of the team was his undoing.

 

The guy bit off more than he could chew.

 

How did it leave the team...not much better than when he took over. Maybe a notch, but that can go up as I think the coach was a problem he never addressed. I think the coaching cost us at least a couple of games...and a couple of games may have been enough to save his.

[ClevelandFanForLife]

How did Savage leave Browns?

one word: screwed

[sisky fringo]

he left it in better shape than he found it for sure. all those freak injuries shouldn't be a reflection on him either.

[ClevelandFanForLife]

he left it in better shape than he found it for sure. all those freak injuries shouldn't be a reflection on him either.

yeah but we are still a complete mess. it is going to take a lot more that a few draft picks and 30 year olds on defense to right this ship

[ImpactPlaya]

You pretty much lost most people with "Butch for all his shortcomings drafted better.". Which Butch were you watching on draft day?

 

 

The only draft pick that Phil Savage hit on was Joe Thomas. But then again it didn't take a draft guru to figure out the drafting of Joe Thomas. Anybody with a working knowledge of football and concepts could have drafted JT.

Phil's 2005 draft or lack of has set the Browns back. NFL'ers should be hitting their prime by year 4 in the league. Antonio Perkins was a bust at CB..too undersized. Brodney Pool is adequete at best.

Charlie Frye never had any business being in the NFL in the 1st place.

Braylon Edwards has never been consistant enough to justify his draft position.

Phil's selections later on have flopped.Kamerion Wimply hasn't graduated pass his one pass rush move.

Jerome Harrison still can't pick up a blitz.

Eric Wright and Brandon McDonald have flashed and could benefit from a pass rush.

D'Qwell Jackson is tackling machine,but they are usually 6 yards downfield.

 

Butch Davis had his share of draft blunders. Gerard Warren,Quincy Morgan,Andra Davis.

But he hit on Ryan Pontibriand(sp). Kellen Winslow 2 if he could have stayed healthy could have been really special. But Tampa thought enough of him to pay him huge $$$.

Sean Jones before his injuries,was starting to be the playmaker at saftey.

Even Jeff Faine has proved to be a quality center...he's a heck of a lot stronger and better than Hank Fraley.

Anthony Henry has been productive for a mid RD pick.

 

Butch Davis got the Browns to the playoffs. Phil Savage.....Joe Thomas and Eric Wright.......thats his positive contribution to the current Browns. oh yeah and overpaying for average FA's.

[We need Tom Tupa]

Please tell me this is a joke. Are you really trying to defend Butch's drafts? You just listed a long-snapper as his greatest achievement. End of story, no?

 

And that great Kellen Winslow pick included giving Detroit our second round pick just to move up one spot in the first round and take the same guy we were going to take anyway. And, oh yeah, we passed on Roethlisberger at the same time.

 

And then you referred to Shaun Rogers as average... This is definitely a joke.

[ImpactPlaya]

I'm not defending Butch Davis's drafts.What Iam doing is showing you how bad Phil Savage's drafts were. Savage missed on so much in his tenure, the only 2 players that Kokinis said was untouchable was Joe Thomas and D'Qwell Jackson.

2 players in 4 years.

As far as Shaun Rogers goes,I never said he was average.Go back and reread my posts. I do know this,whether as a Lion or Brown,he's never been a true difference maker on a defense.

He's a talent.yes.But take him off the Browns defense,its still a pathethic defense.

Watch this year when the Browns start out 0-3,0-4 and see how unmotivated he becomes.Just like how he was in Detroit.

Last time I checked Ozzie Newsome got over Phil Savage on Draft Day a couple years ago.

[We need Tom Tupa]

How many untouchables do you want out of a few years? These guys are all young and unproven. Quinn is the perfect example. A first round QB that hasnt gotten his shot yet. He wasn't listed as untouchable. Does that make him a bad draft pick? I guess you wouldve lined up to mock GB a year ago when they were about the put Aaron Rodgers in.

 

Like I said, we've been over this 100 times. Find me GMs with a better track record than Phil. I can guarantee that you won't find many. If you don't believe me, go ahead and try. I'll still be here when you've changed your screen name or started cheering for Shittsburgh. At worst, he had an average record. He was handed a disaster of a roster, so we needed more from him. And we needed him to do it without publicly putting his foot in his mouth. He couldn't, so we've moved on. But you're going to need to do better than "Jerome Harrison still can't pick up a blitz" if you want to bash Phil.

[Solon16]

Phil Savage will never be a GM in the NFL again. He set this franchise back farther than Butch Davis did. Butch for all his shortcomings drafted better. Phil Savage comes and blows everything up in 2005.

Savage over valued himself and got worked on draft day by other teams..

If you go over to Dawgtalkers.net some still think Phil Savage did a good job with the Browns.

 

disagree to thr utmost.... lets discuss the team... the one he inherited and the one he left....try to defened firing himk... go ahead!

 

[Chip Banks]

You pretty much lost most people with "Butch for all his shortcomings drafted better.". Which Butch were you watching on draft day?

 

DAVIS

 

1 Warren, Gerard DT Florida [3rd] [Disappointing -- NFL Starter for 8 years]

2 Morgan, Quincy WR Kansas State [33rd] [Now out of football -- disappointing, but brought Antonio Bryant who was just franchised by the 49ers and was on the roster Phil inherited in trade -- would have by far had the best season for a receiver on our team catching passes from a guy Phil inherited on the roster who has led a team deep into the playoffs and appeared in a couple pro bowls]

3 Jackson, James RB Miami (Fla) [65th][bust]

4 Henry, Anthony DB South Florida [97th][Very strong pick -- solid career]

5 Pharms, Jeremiah LB Washington [134th][Never made it to training camp. This was an embarrassment for Butch]

6 Jameson, Michael DB Texas A&M [165th][Turned out to be a decent special teams player, substance abuse suspension and career over]

7a Zukauskas, Paul OL Boston College [203rd][wasted pick]

7b King, Andre WR Miami (Fla) [245th] compensatory selection[good special teams contributor. Considering the slot, okay pick]

 

Back to Top

2002

Round Player Position University Notes

1 Green, William RB Boston College [16th overall][Decent rookie year and then bust]

2 Davis, Andre’ WR Virginia Tech [47th][still a productive NFL receiver and return man in the NFL]

3 Fowler, Melvin OL Maryland [76th][still a fringe starter in NFL]

4a Bentley, Kevin LB Northwestern [101st][still starter in NFL]

4b Taylor, Ben LB Virginia Tech [111th][This D'Qwell Jackson-type tackling machine (4-5 yards down field) couldn't stay healthy]

4c Sanders, Darnell TE Ohio State [122nd][buckeye didn't stay in football for long. I admit, I liked the pick at the time.]

5 Davis, Andra LB Florida [141st][solid NFL career. First three years was best LBer play we've seen in the new Browns other than Miller -- that's sad]

7 Gonzalez, Joaquin OL Miami (Fla) [227th][A couple unspectacular years with the Browns and a year or two as P. Manning's swing tackle reserve.]

 

Back to Top

2003

Round Player Position University Notes

1 Faine, Jeff C Notre Dame [21st overall] [Decent NFL Starting center]

2 Thompson, Chaun LB West Texas A&M [52nd][Has not lived up to draft status. Was/is excellent special teams player]

3 Crocker, Chris DB Marshall [84th][still kicking around NFL. IMO every bit as good as Pool Which is the definition of damning with faint praise]

4 Suggs, Lee, Jr. RB Virginia Tech [115th][i can't fault this gamble pick. Injuries persisted. Showed flashes of being a very good RB]

5a Pontbriand, Ryan LS Rice [142nd]choice acquired from Minnesota [best long snapper in the NFL. In retrospect this was a smart pick. Could quibble and say that could have got him with a seventh, but looking at draft history in round five, no room to complain]

5b Lehan, Michael DB Minnesota [152nd][still kicking around NFL]

6 Garay, Antonio DE Boston College [195th][Another injury upside pick. Good enough to fight his way into Chicago Bears rotation on DL when he was healthy]

 

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2004

Round Player Position University Notes

1 Winslow, Kellen TE Miami Choice traded to Detroit along with Browns 2nd round choice for the Lions first-round choice [6th overall][imagine the receiver this guy would have been without the injury. One pro bowl appearance]

2 Jones, Sean S Georgia [59th] Browns choice traded to Detroit (see above), choice [59th] acquired from Indianapolis, and the Colts fifth round choice for the Browns 2004 third round, fifth-round and sixth round choices [by far our best player in the secondary over the last several years absent Bodden (who was a Butch Davis college UFA, BTW)]

3 Browns choice traded to Indianapolis see above

4 McCown, Luke QB Louisiana Tech [106th][Has managed to stay alive with the Bucs. Outside chance to start this season. I give him a great edge in outlasting Charlie Frye in the NFL and taken much later in the draft.]

5 Gordon, Amon DL Stanford Browns choice traded to Indianapolis see above, choice acquired from Indianapolis, [161st][still bouncing around NFL rosters as a guy who can contribute in a DL rotation]

6 Chambers, Kirk OL Stanford Browns choice traded to Indianapolis see above, choice [176th] acquired from Buffalo in 2003 trade for TE Mark Campbell, [Fringe NFL starter]

7 Echemandu, Adimchinobe RB California [208th][still manages to latch on to NFL rosters]

 

SAVAGE

 

Back to Top

2005

Round Player Position University Notes

1 Edwards, Braylon WR Michigan [3rd overall][To me, a Gerard Warren disappointment absent one shining year. I'd rather still have Bryant. Savage called him the safest pick in the draft]

2 Pool, Brodney DB Oklahoma [34th][Fringe quality starter. Taken higher than Jones. See Chris Crocker. This was roster churn]

3 Frye, Charlie QB Akron [67th] [speaks for itself]

4 Perkins, Antonio DB Oklahoma [103rd][Out of football already]

5 McMillan, David DE/LB Kansas [139th][Out of football already]

6a Speegle, Nick LB New Mexico [176th][Out of football already]

6b Hoffman, Andrew DL Virginia Traded QB Luke McCown to Tampa Bay for the Buccaneers’ sixth-round choice [203rd][Out of football already, See McCown -- in essence Opie used the third round pick and this sixth to swap McCown for Frye]

7 Dunn, Jonathan OL Virginia Tech [217th][Out of football]

 

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2006

Round Player Position University Notes

1 Wimbley, Kamerion LB Florida State 13th overall [see William Green -- decent rookie year then nothing]

2 Jackson, D'Qwell LB Maryland 34th overall [see Ben Taylor without the injuries -- tackling machine but not impactful LOS stopper. Not as good a LBer at this stage of his career as Davis was, IMO.]

3 Wilson, Travis WR Oklahoma 78th[Out of Football]

4a Williams, Leon LB Miami (Fla) 110th[Really doesn't make an impact even on special teams. Would be lucky to have a Kevin Bentley career at this point.]

4b Sowells, Isaac OL Indiana 112th[Has shown nothing to date]

5a Harrison, Jerome RB Washington State 145th[Credit Opie. Has something. Too bad he can't be used in the return game. Doesn't look to be durable enough to carry the load and is not a willing blocker -- hard to settle on that as third down back. Honestly, I'd rather see Cribbs as the third down back and see if Harrison can't be a Eric Metcalf in Atlanta. Certainly not a wasted pick.]

5b Minter, Demario DB Georgia 152nd [Who?]

6a Vickers, Lawrence FB Colorado 180th[Credit Opie]

6b Oshinowo, Babatunde DT Stanford 181st[We'll see]

7 Hamilton, Juston S Virginia Tech 222nd[Nada]

 

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2007

Round Player Position University Notes

1a Thomas, Joe OT Wisconsin 3rd overall [solid tackle -- is he a Pace or Ogden worthy of the money he'll make]

1b Quinn, Brady QB Notre Dame 22nd overall [???]

2 Wright, Eric DB UNLV 53rd overall [Will probably have at least an average NFL career]

5 McDonald, Brandon DB Memphis 140th overall [okay at this slot]

6 Purcell, Melila DL Hawaii 200th overall [nada]

7a Pittman, Chase DL LSU 213th overall [nada]

7b Steptoe, Syndric WR Arizona 234th overall [i'd give odds that Andre King's carrer will be more productive]

 

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2008 [Can't judge any of these players yet]

Round Player Position University Notes

4a Bell, Beau LB UNLV 104th overall (From Raiders through Cowboys)

4b Rucker, Martin TE Missouri 111th overall (From Lions through Cowboys)

6a Rubin, Ahtyba DT Iowa State 190th overall (From Seahawks)

6b Hubbard, Paul WR Wisconsin 191th overall (From Browns through Eagles)

7 Hall, Alex DE St. Augustine 200th overall

 

 

What people seem to not understand as well is that salary-cap wise, Davis set this team up for Opie's first year. The roster purge after the playoff season and weeding out Couch's contract and restructuring Warren/Browns was all meant to set up to make the Browns a player in FA the year that Opie took control. Dude all but wasted that opportunity. Butch's roster lacked top end talent for sure. The guy struggled in the draft. Contingent on how the 2007 draft plays out, Opie might be even worse. Opie had a team that needed upgrading with top-end talent. IMO, he wasted time on roster churn and redundant picks and flat out missed on too many players. It's obvious that the draft talent stayed in Baltimore. And Opie was an unmitigated disaster dealing in the FA market.

 

NOT a defense of Davis. More an indictment of Savage.

 

Try to defend Savage's firing????? Under his watch, the Browns had a worse record than they had under Butch Davis. For the record, that's worse than abysmal.

 

Uhhmmmmm. Where is Savage working now?? Last I heard he was doing color for the Spring game in Alabama because Kenny Stabler was too drunk to make it up the press box steps. Dude was a complete fraud.

[NebBrownsFan]

The only draft pick that Phil Savage hit on was Joe Thomas. But then again it didn't take a draft guru to figure out the drafting of Joe Thomas. Anybody with a working knowledge of football and concepts could have drafted JT.

Phil's 2005 draft or lack of has set the Browns back. NFL'ers should be hitting their prime by year 4 in the league. Antonio Perkins was a bust at CB..too undersized. Brodney Pool is adequete at best.

Charlie Frye never had any business being in the NFL in the 1st place.

Braylon Edwards has never been consistant enough to justify his draft position.

Phil's selections later on have flopped.Kamerion Wimply hasn't graduated pass his one pass rush move.

Jerome Harrison still can't pick up a blitz.

Eric Wright and Brandon McDonald have flashed and could benefit from a pass rush.

D'Qwell Jackson is tackling machine,but they are usually 6 yards downfield.

 

Butch Davis had his share of draft blunders. Gerard Warren,Quincy Morgan,Andra Davis.

But he hit on Ryan Pontibriand(sp). Kellen Winslow 2 if he could have stayed healthy could have been really special. But Tampa thought enough of him to pay him huge $$$.

Sean Jones before his injuries,was starting to be the playmaker at saftey.

Even Jeff Faine has proved to be a quality center...he's a heck of a lot stronger and better than Hank Fraley.

Anthony Henry has been productive for a mid RD pick.

 

Butch Davis got the Browns to the playoffs. Phil Savage.....Joe Thomas and Eric Wright.......thats his positive contribution to the current Browns. oh yeah and overpaying for average FA's.

 

Just to point out to you the flaw in your bias....errr, argument, you mention Braylon never justifying his draft position, and then mention Faine proving to be a quality center. You do realize Faine is a FIRST round pick, right? Talk about not justifying draft position. Faine might be ok, but he sure didn't live up to his draft spot. I notice you didn't mention weed-head Green, or Mr. Pharms, who never even got to a training camp. Yeah, Butch made the playoffs, with FAs that he had to purge the next season for cap reasons.

 

I'm not saying Phil did a great job drafting, but we don't know the full extent yet until a little more time passes.

 

[Flugel]

I think it's a little early to be judging his drafts. We obviously have no clue how last year's class will pan out, Quinn's make or break year has yet to arrive, and we know that many of those guys were playing under a coach that didn't want them.

 

His non-draft moves look sold to me:

 

We have Rogers. Shaun Rogers. And we pay him the same as Marcus Stroud. Sounds good to me.

 

 

While I hear you to an extent Tupa, we only had 5 draft picks in 08 with none on day 1. When the first 2 kids we drafted got hurt for large portions on the season, we didn't get much return value before round 6 w/ Rubin and rd 7 w/ Hall. This year prior to the Winslow trade, I think Phil's plan was 4 draft picks for this 2009 draft to followup last year's mess.

 

If I look at Phil's first year, Jason Fisk and Andrew Hoffman as his solutions to the Nose Tackle position and making Andra Davis a priority at LBer didn't do much for us. We also drafted Nick Speegle, David McMillan and brought in Matt Stewart. The ONLY good signing was Willie McGinest who had some minor nagging injuries to overcome and he missed games every year to the overall mileage on him. Seriously, did anyone check to see the date of birth on Ted Washington's birth certificate? He's like that item on the shelf in the grocery store with an expiration date where you say "wow, this would have come in handy back when it was useful."

 

Then we signed an aging Joe Jurevicius who showed up to more games in blue jeans than in uniform over the last 3 years because as I said - the expiration date thing. GM's GOTTA have that knowledge of wear and tear when they're being handed the owner's wallett. Believe it or not, I LIKED how hard Phil tried; but everytime we saw one of his "all the marbles moves" it always seemed to bite us in the fanny for some reason.

 

While Gary Baxter wasn't the WORST idea in the world, paying him in the top 3 salaries here when Baltimore didn't exactly mourn his departure was sort of head scratchy. The injuries to him weren't Phil's fault per say BUT the overcommitment money wise was. Truthfully, I didn't see better coverage skills on him than I saw in Daven Holley. Meanwhile, Bryan Russell was a guy EVERYONE seemed to like and he came here showed us some good stuff before we let him go at the blink of an eye.

 

More BAD picks based on Phil's perceived return value: Brodney Pool. He's been here 4 years and the occasional nice days from him aren't exactly slam dunking great pick near the top of round 2. Travis Hill stayed LONGER than a guy like Bryan Russell? More head scratching. His current NFL address? It's the same NFL address you can find the following players at: Andrew Hoffman, Jon Dunn, David McMillan, Nick Speegle. If guys we were cutting were going to other places and succeeding like say Lance Moore from the Butch era, I'd have to put 100% of that on the Coach and since the same guy was acting as GM that wasn't such a tough thing to do I guess. None of the guys were cutting on this team averagign 4-5 wins are going elsewhere and making rosters/cracking starting lineups. Ozzie prolly realized he gave up his favorite Administrative Assistant that wasn't capable of haunting him for doing so.

 

If I have to hear 3 years from now - I'll apply this to the 2005 draft and see we were 4-12 in 2008. That says horrible and how many of those draftees are still here? He overpaid the crap out of these 2 stiffs: Joe Andruzzi and Kevin Shaffer. Who worked out Andruzzi and did the physical on this guy? He was damaged goods very early into things. Kevin Shaffer was about THE worst LT in the league hence the solution at #3 overall and Phil's greatest moment as a GM. We got 1 year of starting value out of Droughns before he returned to a journeyman level performer. In NY, he went so far down the depth chart he was covering punts and kickoffs instead of taking regular handoffs. In addition, Lewis showed Baltimore worn, torn and tired legs. He had a nice FIRST year with us but that expiration date thing confronted us in just his 2nd year here. There's a reason Baltimore grew tired of waiting.

 

Here was Phil's plan at QB:

Leadoff guy Trent Dilfer

On-deck - Charlie Frye

In the hole - lingering QB controversy

Designated QB Tutor - THE Ken Dorsey who lost a battle with the wind throwing the ball past the line of scrimmage.

- How much worse can you mess that up?

 

Here's some lingering concerns:

1) Solution to an unplanned injury to Shaun Rogers? There are none.

2) Competant starting RB w/ fresh legs and extra gears Jamal lacks. Are we being held hostage to tired legs again?

3) WR Corps looks as lively as a corpse, which means depth is depleted. And WHO did Savage deem as the "safest" pick? A guy our fans seem to boo most: Braylon Edwards.

4) Right Side of Oline was left a mess - HOPING the replacements are better karma. How long did I have to hear Ryan Tucker was the ultimate team leader? You don't make a guy that's always battling injury, goes AWOL on his team and gets suspended for drugs the next year your team LEADER unless last place is where you weant to be.

5) LBer position in a 3-4 Defense. If we've got holes at starting spots guess what that means to depth???

6) Age at Center. Philly stamped an expiration date on Fraley 3 years ago.

7) Depth on the blind side of our line. Sowells' resume on draft day read "Candyass" so he'd prolly get cut everywhere else except maybe Detroit.

8) Pass Rusher - who's the Jamir-like X-factor we're still awaiting?

9) Safety anyone??? Our current starters wouldn't start on 30 other teams so how we lookin?

 

Phil's BIGGEST problem was he came here saying how important it was to maintain program continuity by building through the draft. This means he gave an IMPRESSIVE interview undoubtedly BUT did he walk the walk? Look what he did to our 2008 and 2009 drafts? Look how crummy our 2005 draft was. His ability to draft a decent Nose Tackle or X-factors at LBer was brutal. The ONLY oline guy he got right was a #3 overall pick. I can't even hand out fair grades in the secondary with our joke of a pass rush from the front 7. I'm not so sure, we're THAT much better off now than we were in 2005. Rogers doesn't want to be here, I keep hearing the same for Edwards and realized how much Winslow wanted out. That's not a sign your team had great management. I'm actually annoyed we have so many holes to fill after hearing how much better Phil was going to draft around here.

- Tom F.

[lemosley01]

To be fair to Savage, we don't know how many of these guys would have worked out had their first couple years not been under the 'tutelage' of one Romeo A Crennel and 'staff'.

 

It probably wouldn't look much better, but I think it would be better. For example, Harrison can't pick up blocking because he never gets to play in real games for than than 2 or 3 series.

 

Wimbley hasn't developed any new pass rush moves - we never see him try anything new - that sure seems to me like a coaching issue. Not to mention playcalling where you aren't moving him around (how many seasons did it take them to figure out to move him around).

 

I believe there were some guys with talent in that bunch that were ruind because of the coaching. I also believe many of these guys WERE over-drafted, but still could have been solid players.

[Chip Banks]

While Gary Baxter wasn't the WORST idea in the world, paying him in the top 3 salaries here when Baltimore didn't exactly mourn his departure was sort of head scratchy.

 

- Tom F.

 

I think you give Savage too much credit here. We let Henry walk for the same $$ Opie gave Baxter. Both were safeties playing CB, but at least Henry had experience drawing #1 receivers on a consistent basis and did a passable job. Put an elite corner on the other side of him and we would have looked a little better. Anyone who watched a fair bit of the Ravens the year before Baxter's signing understood that he normally drew a slot receiver and at least the Colts designed plays to get him in match ups with their #1 and 2 receivers -- and got little resistance in that coverage. He averaged less than an interception a year -- absolutely no ball hawking skills. The Ravens signed Rolle to replace him and did back-flips.

 

Savage spent his first couple years churning the roster -- Baxter for Henry, Russell for Crocker, giving away Ekuban and Myers and signing guys like Fisk and Eason to transition to a 3/4. Trading McCown and drafting Frye. McCown was Frye WITH AN ARM!

 

Savage had a kings ransom to spend on free agents due to the Davis purge and restructuring of Brown's and Warren's contracts, but blew it. I think his 3-7 round draft strategy was to call up Oklahoma's coach and ask him who he thought looked good.

 

Savage is a joke.

[Flugel]

I think you give Savage too much credit here. We let Henry walk for the same $$ Opie gave Baxter. Both were safeties playing CB, but at least Henry had experience drawing #1 receivers on a consistent basis and did a passable job. Put an elite corner on the other side of him and we would have looked a little better. Anyone who watched a fair bit of the Ravens the year before Baxter's signing understood that he normally drew a slot receiver and at least the Colts designed plays to get him in match ups with their #1 and 2 receivers -- and got little resistance in that coverage. He averaged less than an interception a year -- absolutely no ball hawking skills. The Ravens signed Rolle to replace him and did back-flips.

 

Savage spent his first couple years churning the roster -- Baxter for Henry, Russell for Crocker, giving away Ekuban and Myers and signing guys like Fisk and Eason to transition to a 3/4. Trading McCown and drafting Frye. McCown was Frye WITH AN ARM!

 

Savage had a kings ransom to spend on free agents due to the Davis purge and restructuring of Brown's and Warren's contracts, but blew it. I think his 3-7 round draft strategy was to call up Oklahoma's coach and ask him who he thought looked good.

 

Savage is a joke.

 

Much better said than I. Like you, I wasn't setting out to compliment Savage. Phil left us in a mess if we look at scoring weapons, oline depth, LBer, RB wear and tear, etc. For every solid FA like Steinbach and Rogers we got twice as many duds like Fisk, Wright, Andruzzi, Shaffer, Stewart, Peek, etc. And when we got a guy like Russell that knocked No-Show Cinco out of a game over the middle - we hurried to dump him.

 

I don't see HOW anyone thinking Butch sucked thinks Phil was wondferful in comparison. In 2001, we turn 5-27 football into 7-9 with 2 OT losses and place Jamir Miller in a Pro Bowl while our secondary LED the conference in INTs. The next year would be playoffs. So what was a better problem solve: a 5-27 football team that made the playoffs within 2 years or a team coming off 4 or 5 wins in 04 and possessing the same 4 wins in 2008? Phil's job in 4 years was to improve what he felt would be an easy task to improve: convenient or not. Had he done so, he would STILL be employed by an owner that doesn't seem too tough to please.

- Tom F.

[We need Tom Tupa]

If Quinn turns into a top 10 QB, then we all stop bitching about being short a 1st round pick in '08 and stop saying that Phil didnt know how to address a QB problem. If a new coach can teach Wimbley how to be as effective as he was as a rookie, then Phil will have given us a good pass rusher. If Eric Wright continues to improve, then Phil will have drafted a #1 corner... in the second round. If Edwards playing with Quinn looks like he did in '07 then we have a legit top 5-10 WR. If we trade him for a 1st and 3rd, then we have a 1st and 3rd.

 

Impact players at:

 

LT

CB

Pass Rusher

DT

QB

WR

 

Not to mention the best kick returner in the league, pro bowl FB, solid DEs, 10 year starter at ILB, very good 2nd CB, pro bowl first alternate at LG, etc.

 

This is what we're pissed about?

 

And we have no idea how players like Hubbard, Hall, Rucker, Bell, and Co. will end up. That's the nature of the game; day 2 picks take time.

 

I understand that these players could end up not as good as we hope. but that's exactly my point - we dont know yet! We have one of the youngest teams in the league. It is perfectly reasonable to expect that a year form now we will have franchise players at almost all of the key positions because of Phil Savage. Is your problem that you dont think any of those players could end up being good or that all of those players ending up good isnt enough for you? If it's the former, fine let's wait and see. We can hash this out in a year or two. If it's the latter, then you're nuts. There isn't anything I can do about that.

[Flugel]

If Quinn turns into a top 10 QB, then we all stop bitching about being short a 1st round pick in '08 and stop saying that Phil didnt know how to address a QB problem. If a new coach can teach Wimbley how to be as effective as he was as a rookie, then Phil will have given us a good pass rusher. If Eric Wright continues to improve, then Phil will have drafted a #1 corner...

 

Sorting through all the IFs:

1) Joe Thomas is the ONLY draft pick there is a consensus of warm and fuzzy with. Cribbs was a decent find BUT Phil was the guy saying we didn't have a decent replacement for Northcutt on the roster so I think I'll give Daisher soem cred

2) IF Wimbley gets a second move is like saying if you see a UFO today. You make it sound like the only difference between him and Lawrence Taylor is which fat guy on the sideline was yelling sic em.

3) I feel like I'm in the minority when I try to remind people about Edwards' 07 season and part of that is because people will say he got injured as a rookie, did so-so as a 2nd year guy, All Pro in 3rd year, stonehands in 4th year.

4) IF Quinn is a top 10 QB - he'd have more magic in him than Houdini. Who is he going to be throwing to in 2009?

5) IF Phil realized rounds 2-7 counted - maybe we wouldn't have had to wait 4 years just to find our first decent Nose tackle.

6) IF Phil realized rounds 2-7 counted - we would have drafted LBers that STARTED in college instead of guys demoted like Leon. You run a 3-4 with the type of LBer OZZIE drafts not his secretary. We got the secretary.

7) I-suck Sowells and BIG Jon Dunn were his draftees on the oline.

8) IF building through the draft is your intention, what's up with ZERO day 1 picks (and only 5 overall ) in 08 and leaving us with 4 picks in 09 (BEFORE the Wilsow trade added 1)? That's a wishy-washy objective if I've ever seen one.

 

When is the last time this franchise BEAT Pittsburgh?

When is the last time you saw THIS team beat an AFC opponent headed for the playoffs or sporting a winning record of more than 8 wins? Give me 1 name in the last 2 years and I'm impressed.

 

If you come here as a GM promising you are gonna improve the continuity of this team through the draft. You better SHOW me you CAN draft. Phil was 0 for Nose Tackles, 0 for oline in the draft which are brutal no-nos. D'Qwell is his best pick at LBer. He hasn't found ANY starting oline or dline guys after a 3rd overall pick so I'm not seeing his brilliance. As I look at our WR and RB positions heading into the draft I learn what Bulemia feels like.

 

As a Cleveland Browns' fan I've painfully learned IF only means "did not." Phil didn't get his walking papers because Lerner is impatient. Phil got his walking papers because of "did not!" Sorry man, I fell for Opey's "aw shucks" too. We couldn't win 5 games BEFORE Phil showed up and we won the SAME 4 games in his 4th year. Where did IF matter?

- Tom F.

[We need Tom Tupa]

cute. even turned a couple nice phrases. but it doesnt change the fact that it is ASININE to evaluate drafts after only a year or two.

 

You're trying to take the position that guys cant get much better after a few years? That draft picks are a waste if the picks dont start in year 1? I'm not going to waste my time explaining why I disagree Similarly, I'm not going to explain why I think the sky is blue or the Lions suck.

[Flugel]

cute. even turned a couple nice phrases. but it doesnt change the fact that it is ASININE to evaluate drafts after only a year or two.

 

You're trying to take the position that guys cant get much better after a few years? That draft picks are a waste if the picks dont start in year 1? I'm not going to waste my time explaining why I disagree Similarly, I'm not going to explain why I think the sky is blue or the Lions suck.

 

Not at all. That's just you getting extremely creative. I'm merely summarizing that guys Phil drafted did NOT get better. There's a reason he lost his job Tupa and I had nothing to do with that. If the 4th year of a new GM includes 12 losses in that season - that's not the improvement you're telling me about. On top of that, we went 0-8 against Pittsburgh (which would be like Ohio State losing to Michigan twice a season in terms of acceptability). If that's not enough, I tried to find how many AFC teams we beat in the last 2 years that won MORE than 8 games and came up with 0. You can dress that up anyway you have to but it's gonna require more creativity and "if" syndrome.

 

Phil's first draft was 2005 and 4 years later I ask what guys from that group got better for us by the time 2008 came around? Didn't we only win 4 games in 08? What draftee from 05 currently starts on our dline? LBer? Corner? Safety? Brodney Pool plus zero = 1. What draftee from 05 rotates in with the defense? 0. There's a total of 1.

 

What draftee from 05 currently starts on our oline? QB? TE? WR? RB? FB? Braylon Edwards plus zero = 1. What draftee from 05 rotates in with the offense with any regularity? 0. There's another total of 1.

 

Josh Cribbs was undrafted but one of Phil's prouder moments next to Joe Thomas. We can count him as 1 guy that rotates in. So from that draft 4 years ago - all that remains is 2 starters and 1 part timer. Not much different than all the crap we complained about BEFORE 2005. I haven't seen any of the 2005 draftees we had to cut joining BETTER teams and haunting us. Although if you can find 1, I'm as impressed as seeing someone walk on water.

 

And now for Phil's setup for the 2008 and 2009 drafts. ZERO day 1 selections in 2008 with only 5 picks overall (2 got injured for significant periods). And prior to trading Winslow, I believe Phil had us setup for an overall volume of 4 selections in 2009. While you're popping champagne, I counted 2 teams from our division that competed in the AFC Championship Game. BOTH front offices not only drafted a TON of great starters but they ALSO provided depth in all important areas. Phil wasn't even CLOSE to competing with either GM. Furthermore, reducing our draft volumes in 08 and 09 only punctuates that point.

- Tom F. (Parcells and Dimitroff went to Miami & Atlanta, who were arguably in the worst shape of any NFL franchises south of Detroit. All the right personnel moves meant playoffs in season #1 instead of the ever so convenient "if" you seem to prefer here)

[We need Tom Tupa]

I get it. You want to write off everyone we drafted that hasn't performed yet. If they aren't stars after a year or two, they are a waste of pick. That's why GB is so upset that they drafted Rodgers, why Tony Romo is a bust, why the Giants gave up on Eli after a few mediocre seasons, why James Harrison never made it off the Steeler's practice squad, why Michael Turner is a career backup, why the Falcons regret drafting Roddy White (his first season was weak), Leonard Davis is a bust, Thomas Jones will never rush for 1000, etc.

 

Oh, wait. None of that is true. In fact, it seems like it's perfectly normal for players to take a few years to prove their value. Yes, there are exceptions (the Dolphins aren't one. their QB and best defensive player came in through FA), but that doesnt disprove the rule. The argument has become whether or not we should wait a few years to make strong statements about the quality of a draft class. You don't think we should. I'm going to stand over here with 99% of football fans, commentators, GMs, coaches, etc and say you're wrong. And I'll save you some time by letting you know now that another 500 words isn't going to change my mind.

[ImpactPlaya]

I get it. You want to write off everyone we drafted that hasn't performed yet. If they aren't stars after a year or two, they are a waste of pick. That's why GB is so upset that they drafted Rodgers, why Tony Romo is a bust, why the Giants gave up on Eli after a few mediocre seasons, why James Harrison never made it off the Steeler's practice squad, why Michael Turner is a career backup, why the Falcons regret drafting Roddy White (his first season was weak), Leonard Davis is a bust, Thomas Jones will never rush for 1000, etc.

 

Oh, wait. None of that is true. In fact, it seems like it's perfectly normal for players to take a few years to prove their value. Yes, there are exceptions (the Dolphins aren't one. their QB and best defensive player came in through FA), but that doesnt disprove the rule. The argument has become whether or not we should wait a few years to make strong statements about the quality of a draft class. You don't think we should. I'm going to stand over here with 99% of football fans, commentators, GMs, coaches, etc and say you're wrong. And I'll save you some time by letting you know now that another 500 words isn't going to change my mind.

 

 

Tom Tupa,the truth of the matter is,most of the players the Browns have drafted over the years never develop into difference makers or game changers. And those 2 reasons can stem from a number of things....character, poor position coaches, or for the fact they aren't as good as advertised.

Those players you brought up are poor examples to prove your point.

The Browns very rarely had established vets to mentor young players in order for them to ascend to the next level.

James Harrison benefits from playing under one of the best defensives minds in our era,Dick LeBeau. Plus I believe he was able to play behind Joey Porter. Harrison also is a student of the game.

Kamerion Wimbley is going to play for his 3 DC in 4 years.

Wimbley came in drafted in the 1st RD.....he was guarenteed to start right away. Wimbley hasn't progressed. He's regressed......For a guy drafted to bring heat from the edge,he's invisable.

A guy like Wimbley is projected to give results right away,not 4 years down the road.

Wimbley has no upper body strength and his legs are pixel sticks.

A 1,000 yards is no longer a benchmark.....any RB that averages 66 yards a game,gets a 1,000 yards.

[Flugel]

I get it. You want to write off everyone we drafted that hasn't performed yet. If they aren't stars after a year or two, they are a waste of pick.

 

You're not even close to getting it. You got your nipples twisted because I sorted through a couple hundred "ifs" and corrected your insinuations that Opey was acing his GM gig here in Cleveland. Then I backed it up with examples you refused to find convenient causing you to get silly. In the process you're confusing Charlie Frye with Tony Romo - good luck with that.

 

You said you need at least 3 years to define the quality of work of the GM at a draft. Here's the sum of 05 draftees I gave you that started in 08:

Braylon Edwards, WR = 1 for offense + Brodney Pool, Safety = 1 for defense

None of the other draft picks remain with this team from that class and our record 4 years later is 4-12. None of them resurfaced on any of the 31 other rosters either. I didn't see the same bunch of James Harrisons you saw. I was moved by your imagination and creativity though.

 

Opey's 2008 Draft = 0 day 1 picks & sum of 5 draftees. Compare that to other 08 draft volumes in the AFC North: Balt 10 draftees, Cincy 10 draftees, Pittsburgh 7 draftees. For 2009 = Phil set us up w/ 4 draft picks before Winslow got traded (1 was dded since). This means Phil set us up with a total of 9 picks for 08 & 09. He had you at "hello" Tupa.

 

I want a GM that understands the following:

1) WHAT division he's in; 2) WHAT defensive alignment he's selecting for; 3) WHAT types of linemen on both sides of the ball are WORTH drafting AFTER rd 1; 4) NFL WEAR & TEAR on FA signees before they hold us hostage; and 5) Saying you build through the draft means you build through the draft instead of continuance to throw 100% of your marbles into the same free agency that has bitten this franchise in the fanny.

- Tom F. (Thomas Dimitroff and Bill Parcells showed that you can go from chaos to playoffs in 1 intelligent offseason while you were too happy to remind us noone better than Phil was available for upgrade. Thatta boy!)

[We need Tom Tupa]

We got Shaun Rogers for one of those draft picks. Do you like that move? Y or N? If yes, then stop complaining that we didnt have a draft pick last year. If no, I'd love an explanation.

 

We used last year's #1 to move up to get Quinn. The move was widely lauded at the time and we currently have no idea how it will play out. So your criticism that we didn't have a #1 last year is hollow. This is why I say that you can't determine Phil's performance yet.

 

We used some of this year's draft picks to move up last year. You have no idea if Bell, Hubbard and Rucker were good picks. So your criticism of how many picks we had this year is completely hollow. This is why I say that you can't determine Phil's performance yet.

 

We used last year's #2 on Corey Williams. I can understand if people don't like that trade. Personally, I think he played fairly well considering the fact that he was in a new system and injured, but I won't begrudge you some crankiness on this one.

 

We used last year's 6th round pick on Hank Fraley. I doubt anyone thinks this was a bad use of a 6th round pick.

 

We traded last year's 7th round pick for a backup CB who ended up starting a game because we were hit so hard by injuries. I'm okay with that, are you?

 

There you have our lack of draft picks. I see MAYBE 2 picks that you can be upset about right now (one of them involves a 7th rounder), and I think it makes sense to give Williams another year before you flip out over that pick. Again, your complaints about our lack of draft picks are hollow right now. Come back in a year or two.

 

 

Your criticism of Edwards is a great example of why it is stupid to try to judge Phil's work right now. If we had done this last year, we would have been talking about a Pro Bowl WR and a QB that we picked off Balt's practice sqaud that they now wanted to trade a 1st round pick for. Doesnt this conversation make a lot more sense now that we have a better idea of how Edwards and Anderson play?

 

Phil's 2005 draft was weak. We've discussed that endlessly here as well. I don't give him a pass for it. He had a bad year. Boo on him. But that doesnt tell the whole story. In fact, Phil's 2005 draft looks AMAZING next to the Patriots' 2007 draft which included 10 picks among whom the best player was Stephen Gostkowski. Bad years happen. We'll have a good picture of how good his body of work was in a couple of years. I'm sorry, but it's true.

 

 

I have to admit that I get a kick out of your consistent complaints that we don't build through the draft and then your references to Bill Parcells and Miami. They drafted jake long first overall last year. So they get as much credit as Phil does for Joe Thomas. After that, they drafted DEs that combined for about 50 tackles. So how did their roster really improve last year? FAs named Chad Pennington and Joey Porter come to mind. Of course, I should also admit that I dont see Miami being a perennial winner. Their season last year looks alot more like our 2007 than the beginning of a Patriot-esque decade. But you love those snap one-year judgments, dont you?

 

 

you were too happy to remind us noone better than Phil was available for upgrade. Thatta boy!)

I'm sorry, but when I posted stat after stat about Phil being as good as other GMs in the league, did you really expect me to be persuaded by your argument that there must be some guy out there that we havent heard of who is better?

[Chip Banks]

Patriots' 2007 draft which included 10 picks among whom the best player was Stephen Gostkowski.

 

 

I assume you mean 2006 -- that is the year Stephen Gostkowski was drafted. Uhmm, so you would rate Laurence Maroney a draft bust?? Tell you what: I'll trade him for Wimbley right now -- forget that Wimbley was taken 8 slots higher. Come back to me at the end of this season and we'll discuss it. Didn't we trade down with Baltimore out of the slot to pick Ngata for the one-move wonder?? Yeah, Savage was the brains behind the draft in Baltimore.

 

You can't really look at the Patriots drafts and compare them to the Browns. Half the guys on our squad that stick on the roster -- junk like Leon Williams or Iasac Sowells, for instance -- wouldn't make it out of their rookie training camp with the Patriots.