Orakpo=This Year's Gholston?

[Earl34]

My disclaimer is that I'm a Texas alum and I have always been guilty of either loving or hating the Horns' players as prospective NFL players.

 

Last year, at #6, the Jets took Gholston. I believe it might have been Mike Mayock (I could be wrong) who said that this was the only player at that position who merited that high of a pick but that the risk was certainly there. Looking up what video I could find, it seemed like a reasonable pick although what little game film I saw didn't suggest to me that he was particularly athletic. I loved the video of him bull-rushing Jake Long. In his rookie season, Gholston didn't beat anybody with a bull rush or any other kind of rush. He was around the ball at times but struggled to even make a tackle. Against the Broncos, he had Jay Cutler scrambling but couldn't even close on him.

 

I know Orakpo far more than I knew Gholston but it bothers me that when I listen to the discussions about "Can he make the switch to OLB?" etc....I can't help but think of Gholston.

 

For all of the OSU guys and gals out there, my question is this: Was there anything about Gholston in college that might have suggested that he'd struggle? Did he seem a "Workout Warrior" or is it just one of those guys that's had a bad rookie year but might rebound?

 

I can't tell you if Orakpo is worth the #5 pick. I can't tell you if he'll be better than Gholston. I will say that I have generally been pessimistic when it comes to Texas LBs and DEs playing in the NFL but I have always had a good feeling about Orakpo. I like his first step and his instincts rushing the passer. I guess I wouldn't be surprised if he busted or was a 10-time Pro Bowler and homer or not, that bothers me.

[cambridgeho]

Gholston was in a pretty weak conference in the Big 10, he had 1 good year in college. Gholston will be a great player once he gets the olb thing going, he is a freak oof an athlete. Orakpo has been a more consistant college player, and a bit faster than Gholston. anytime you pick and DE and move him you are going to be taking a risk, but if the potential is there, why cant you take him at #5, its not like it would be the biggest waste of money that we have lost.

[Geech]

Gholston came out of (almost) nowhere and wowed everyone with his measurables. He was talked of as a candidate to make the switch to 3-4 OLB, but he wasn't talked of as a top 10 pick at the the end of the college football season. He rose fast and hard as the offseason progressed.

 

Workout Warrior might be the label he is remembered by, but he's only been in the NFL for one year. It's too early to tell, but he hasn't started off on the right foot.

 

-Al

[Earl34]

He rose fast and hard as the offseason progressed.

 

This is something I've never understood. With all of the scouting and combines....these guys who "rise fast" as the draft approaches scare me. If you weren't good enough to be at a certain draft position after the combine....why does the week before the draft change things?

[Oldcrow1945]

Gholston was in a pretty weak conference in the Big 10, he had 1 good year in college.

 

That is untrue...He had 49 tackles at DE, plus a very, very good 18 TFL's and 7.5 sacks the year before the year you claim was his only good year.

He had more than ONE good year.

 

He draft status rose fast bit his stats and ability sure didn't.

[cambridgeho]

2006 soph year2006 soph year

 

SACKS UA TOT NIU TEXAS CIN PSU IOWA BGSU MSU IND MINN ILL NU MICH UF

Gholston, V DL...... 8-1 8.5 1.5 - 1.0 1.0 - 1.0 - - - 1.0 2.0 1.0

 

TOTAL TACKLES UA-A TOT NIU TEXAS CIN PSU IOWA BGSU MSU IND MINN ILL NU MICH UF

Gholston, V DL...... 21-28 49 2-3 2-1 1-1 2-5 2-1 2-2 1-1 1-3 1-1 2-4 2-0 1-3 2-3

 

not even that impressive

 

 

 

2007 JR year

 

TOTAL TACKLES UA-A TOT YSU AKRON WASH NU MINN PUR KENT MSU PSU WIS ILL MICH LSU

Gholston, V......... 25-12 37 2-2 1-1 1-0 3-0 1-1 1-0 2-2 1-1 1-0 4-0 2-3 4-1 2-1

 

 

 

I couldnt get the numbers to even up, but you get thet picture.

the dude had I good game against a good O line in michigan other than that, not to great.

his tackles were not to great either. he did how ever make marcus freeman have some great stats that year.

[Oldcrow1945]

As a redshirt Soph the Big Ten coaches named him to the second team. This means they thought he was the third or fourth best DE in the Big Ten as a Soph.

Saying he had just one good year is simply not accurate. Even the Big Ten coaches recognized that he was one of the four best DE's out of 22 starting in the conference.

 

He shot up to a top ten pick after the combines but he was going to be a 1st rounder before the combines.

[cambridgeho]

Its not hard to be in the top 5 as a DE in the big 10, name the others that were good that year. He had a good year against ok talent and he was a 1st round talent, he wasnt worth the a 10pick, Is Orakpo the next him ,no he is not, becuase we do not know how good Gholston will be.

[YtownBrownsBacker]

As a redshirt Soph the Big Ten coaches named him to the second team. This means they thought he was the third or fourth best DE in the Big Ten as a Soph.

Saying he had just one good year is simply not accurate. Even the Big Ten coaches recognized that he was one of the four best DE's out of 22 starting in the conference.

 

He shot up to a top ten pick after the combines but he was going to be a 1st rounder before the combines.

 

Same old BS about the Big 10 being a weak conference, like the Big 12 knows how to play defense. Especially talking about Texas playing defense. A two or three team conference for years with a bunch of have-nots until a few years ago, now they start pounding their chests but it isn't because anybody there played defense.

 

I'd like for him to count how many defensive players are starting in the NFL from that weak Big 10 Conference.

 

I'm not a big Gholston fan and think the Jets reached for him. That's what happens when teams put too much emphasis on combine numbers instead of watching game film. That being said, the guy had to learn a new position and converting DEs to 3-4 OLBs isn't a sure thing. Gholston as a WSDE in a 4-3 might be a stud and he might still end up being a good plaer at OLB. Adalias Thomas was a bust at OLB when he was first moved there. Belichick and Mangini both say it takes a guy a good year or two training camps to make the conversion to a 3-4 OLB and some never do. It took Vrable 3 years to make the conversion.

 

Other then Ware and Merriman, their aren't many 3-4 OLBs that were top picks. Guys like Harrison, Vrable, Thomas, Joey Porter and on and on were all mid to late round picks. Pluto had a good article about this in today's PD.

 

IMO, I would rather take a couple mid round DEs and convert them rather then take a guy at #5 who will make a ton of money and might not be able to make the conversion. A guy like Connor Barwin, who is athletic (a former TE), very aggressive and a hard nosed football player is the type of guy you would love to have to convert to a 3-4 OLB.

[Oldcrow1945]

Its not hard to be in the top 5 as a DE in the big 10, name the others that were good that year. He had a good year against ok talent and he was a 1st round talent, he wasnt worth the a 10pick, Is Orakpo the next him ,no he is not, becuase we do not know how good Gholston will be.

 

The four D-linemen picked in front of him on the first team was Anthony Spencer who was the 26th overall pick in the draft, Alan Branch was the 33rd overall pick in the draft, Woodley was the 46th pick in the draft and Pitcock was a third rounder. All these guys but Branch were seniors and were drafted that year.... Gholston was just a soph.

It's obvious the Big Ten coaches were pretty impressed with the kid.

[cambridgeho]

Same old BS about the Big 10 being a weak conference, like the Big 12 knows how to play defense. Especially talking about Texas playing defense. A two or three team conference for years with a bunch of have-nots until a few years ago, now they start pounding their chests but it isn't because anybody there played defense.

 

I'd like for him to count how many defensive players are starting in the NFL from that weak Big 10 Conference.

 

I'm not a big Gholston fan and think the Jets reached for him. That's what happens when teams put too much emphasis on combine numbers instead of watching game film. That being said, the guy had to learn a new position and converting DEs to 3-4 LBs isn't a sure thing. Gholston as a WSDE in a 4-3 might be a stud. Adalias Thomas was a bust at OLB when he was forst moved. Belichick and Mangini both say it take a guy a good year or two training camps to make the conversion to a 3-4 OLB.

 

Other then Ware and Merriman, their aren't many 3-4 OLBs that were top picks. Guys like Harrison, Vrable, Thomas, Joey Porter and on and on. Pluto had a good article about this in today's PD.

 

IMO, I would rather take a couple mid round DEs and convert them rather then take a guy at #5 who will make a ton of money and might not be able to make the conversion. A guy like Connor Barwin, who is athletic (a former TE), very aggressive and a hard nosed football player is the type of guy you would love to have to convert to a 3-4 OLB.

Now thats what im talking about. By me saying Ohio State has a weak conference im just saying that our schedule is always pretty easy if you look back a few years to who we have played during the regular season, not much on that list, all the tougher named teams we have had trouble winning or we got our asses handed to us. In regards of the topic they are both physical freaks and will be probably pretty good givin the time and right coaching. So agreed we need more time to finish this topic.

[Oldcrow1945]

Same old BS about the Big 10 being a weak conference

 

I agree and do not want to get into another conference debate and have to pull out the draft numbers again to show that the NFL drafts as many Big Ten players as any other conference.

It was amazing when I took the first four rounds of the past 5 drafts and crunched the numbers.

 

The only two conferences that were not well represented was the PAC 10 and Big East. Take USC out of the PAC 10 in the last five years and the lack of NFL quality players in that conference was scary.

 

This "Weak" Big Ten stuff came from two things...Two straight poor performances by the Buckeyes in a NC game and ESPN dumbass announcers like Mark May who haven't a clue.

This stuff is nothing more than popular bandwagoning by people who really don't know.

All you have to do is look at the numbers.

 

[cambridgeho]

I agree and do not want to get into another conference debate and have to pull out the draft numbers again to show that the NFL drafts as many Big Ten players as any other conference.

It was amazing when I took the first four rounds of the past 5 drafts and crunched the numbers.

 

The only two conferences that were not well represented was the PAC 10 and Big East. Take USC out of the PAC 10 in the last five years and the lack of NFL quality players in that conference was scary.

 

This "Weak" Big Ten stuff came from two things...Two straight poor performances by the Buckeyes in a NC game and ESPN dumbass announcers like Mark May who haven't a clue.

This stuff is nothing more than popular bandwagoning by people who really don't know.

All you have to do is look at the numbers.

 

 

Im not trying to debate conferences, just the 2 seasons Gholston played in and how he performed against ok teams. Im a big 10 guy, so i see it every year. The last few years havent been good to us.

 

[BernietheKid]

Same old BS about the Big 10 being a weak conference, like the Big 12 knows how to play defense. Especially talking about Texas playing defense. A two or three team conference for years with a bunch of have-nots until a few years ago, now they start pounding their chests but it isn't because anybody there played defense.

 

I'd like for him to count how many defensive players are starting in the NFL from that weak Big 10 Conference.

 

I'm not a big Gholston fan and think the Jets reached for him. That's what happens when teams put too much emphasis on combine numbers instead of watching game film. That being said, the guy had to learn a new position and converting DEs to 3-4 OLBs isn't a sure thing. Gholston as a WSDE in a 4-3 might be a stud and he might still end up being a good plaer at OLB. Adalias Thomas was a bust at OLB when he was first moved there. Belichick and Mangini both say it takes a guy a good year or two training camps to make the conversion to a 3-4 OLB and some never do. It took Vrable 3 years to make the conversion.

 

Other then Ware and Merriman, their aren't many 3-4 OLBs that were top picks. Guys like Harrison, Vrable, Thomas, Joey Porter and on and on were all mid to late round picks. Pluto had a good article about this in today's PD.

 

IMO, I would rather take a couple mid round DEs and convert them rather then take a guy at #5 who will make a ton of money and might not be able to make the conversion. A guy like Connor Barwin, who is athletic (a former TE), very aggressive and a hard nosed football player is the type of guy you would love to have to convert to a 3-4 OLB.

 

I agree Y-Town you don't take a guy at five who is gonna switch positions. If you take someone that high he better come in ready to contribute in year 1 or 2. Of course there is going to be growing pains but he should walk in ready to start at that position. Not waiting 2-3 years for him to learn a new position and get 20-30 million dollars guarnteed.

[Browns2405]

For the longest time I remember teams like OSU, Mich, MSU, Iowa, Illinois, Penn State, Minn and sometimes Northwestern being ranked in the top 25 and sometimes they would fall in out throughout the year but OSU and the team up north would always be consistently there.

[Earl34]

A weak conference is a poor argument here. This is the same conference that produced Jake Long and Joe Thomas. Where you could possibly make arguments about the talent levels overall....good offensive linemen in the Big 10 are not in short supply. I would say that means judging a pass rusher is not subject to a "weak conference bias".

[YtownBrownsBacker]

Now thats what im talking about. By me saying Ohio State has a weak conference im just saying that our schedule is always pretty easy if you look back a few years to who we have played during the regular season, not much on that list, all the tougher named teams we have had trouble winning or we got our asses handed to us. In regards of the topic they are both physical freaks and will be probably pretty good givin the time and right coaching. So agreed we need more time to finish this topic.

 

Then why do you even start the post with "Gholston was in a pretty weak conference in the Big 10"? The reference should have been about taking a guy who was best suited as a 4-3 DE, not what conference he played in. And then if you think Orakpo is better suited as a 4-3 DE or can he convert to a 3-4 OLB. The conferences shouldn't come into it especially since the Big 12 doesn't play defense.

 

 

[Mr. T]

Orakpo=This Year's Gholston?

 

Only time will tell.

 

I think that Gholston will rebound and Orakpo is a physical beast he will be hard to pass up on if he is there when we pick.

[cambridgeho]

A weak conference is a poor argument here. This is the same conference that produced Jake Long and Joe Thomas. Where you could possibly make arguments about the talent levels overall....good offensive linemen in the Big 10 are not in short supply. I would say that means judging a pass rusher is not subject to a "weak conference bias".

 

 

why does this have to be a debate, ok here we go.. great they had 2 great OL come out , sweet. You also say the big 12 is a 2 or 3 team conference, cool thats sounds like another conference we know, also how did we do this year in bowl games when there wasnt Jake long or Joe thomas. The conference debate is on a yearly basis, every year is different, there are so many different coaching styles and some years recruits are better than others. I dont care what conference is better I care about my team, that usually loses to better opponents.

[cambridgeho]

Then why do you even start the post with "Gholston was in a pretty weak conference in the Big 10"? The reference should have been about taking a guy who was best suited as a 4-3 DE, not what conference he played in. And then if you think Orakpo is better suited as a 4-3 DE or can he convert to a 3-4 OLB. The conferences shouldn't come into it especially since the Big 12 doesn't play defense.

 

 

also if you are accusing me of the topic I didnt start it. I just replied to what i though of the topic. properly stating the statistics and giving the guy props for a year.

if he would have stated who is the best 4-3 DE to turn to a 3-4 OLB then I would have to reference that topic, but that wasnt stated.< but somehow people have to get there panties in a bunch about the big ten

 

 

Also I found this site that compares conferences. http://msn.foxsports.com/cfb/headToHead its pretty neat.

[Gips]

This is something I've never understood. With all of the scouting and combines....these guys who "rise fast" as the draft approaches scare me. If you weren't good enough to be at a certain draft position after the combine....why does the week before the draft change things?

/agree the fast risers never seem to translate on the field at the pro-level we have a fast riser in rubin a guy i thought would rock it out from day 1 but he gets rocked out of his socks instead when he was rotated with rogers last year...the kid seems bad against the run and was unable to move anyone or even hold his ground...

[YtownBrownsBacker]

Orakpo=This Year's Gholston?

 

Only time will tell.

 

I think that Gholston will rebound and Orakpo is a physical beast he will be hard to pass up on if he is there when we pick.

 

I believe Gholston just got picked into the wrong system for him. He might have ended up as a beast as a 4-3 WSDE, but we may never know. Pluto's article today in the PD was eye opening. A. Thomas was a bust when Balt first tried to make him a OLB. He had to be sent back to DE. The next year he caught on and the rest is history. Vrable is another example who didn't catchon to the 3-4 OLB position for 3 years.

 

Orakpo may be a beast as a DE, but can he transition to a 3-4 OLB nd be dominate in his first year? If there's a question, I'd rather pass and find a few guys later in the draft, far cheaper and work them in. There isn't too many guys who stepped right in and were a success at a 3-4 OLB position. Ware and Merriman, but not many others.

 

So, if you want to pick Orakpo, you better be sure because he is going to make a hell of a lot of money.

 

If I'm picking at #5 I want a guy that will come in and be an impact player, right now. I don't care what position, if he can make an immediate impact he makes the team better.

[Earl34]

If I'm picking at #5 I want a guy that will come in and be an impact player, right now. I don't care what position, if he can make an immediate impact he makes the team better.

 

I think you've hit on a very important point. With the money at the top of the draft being what it is....you really cannot afford to miss. First off, they need to start impacting your team (that pretty much means they're a starter) from day one. Second, if they DO bust you're not only going to be looking to fill that same void but you'll be tying up even MORE money in the same position. At that point, it takes away money from other positions and pushes you up against the cap.

 

Some good examples that come to mind include all of the WRs that Detroit kept taking and not getting their money's worth and also Alex Smith in SF. They paid him top dollar and here they are still looking for a QB.

 

[Oldcrow1945]

Although I'm not a huge fan of drafting a guy extremely high that is going to switch from DE to LB, at the same time I think it always depends on the player. His history and athleticism.

 

I viewed a guy like Gholston more like John Abraham. I still think Gholston should be playing DE. He didn't start playing football until 10th grade and Cass tried to put him at LB then and it didn't work well.

I view someone like Demarcus Ware as a more athletic type that could make the transition more easily.

 

 

Mike Mayock, who I think is one of the best, recently brought up the same issues that I brought up a long time ago in a thread on this forum....Orakpo seems to disappear at times....It seems the effort isn't always there. We saw it in the Bowl game this year where Alex Boone actually shut him down for most of the game.

 

Mayock said he'd be shocked if Orakpo didn't go in the top ten but at #5 he said "I'm just not an Orakpo guy at that level".

 

I am completely lost as to what I'd do with #5.....Well, I'd try like hell to trade it!!

[calfoxwc]

I dont' remember Ghoulston dominating top opponents.

 

Orakpo dominated two blue chip LT's, one from Oklahoma, and had great games.

 

His teammates say he's unstoppable, and he's fast, and power and smart and has good character.

 

He is, imho, the Browns' pick. He will strike fear into div offenses. For a change.

[hammertime]

I believe Gholston just got picked into the wrong system for him. He might have ended up as a beast as a 4-3 WSDE, but we may never know. Pluto's article today in the PD was eye opening. A. Thomas was a bust when Balt first tried to make him a OLB. He had to be sent back to DE. The next year he caught on and the rest is history. Vrable is another example who didn't catchon to the 3-4 OLB position for 3 years.

 

Orakpo may be a beast as a DE, but can he transition to a 3-4 OLB nd be dominate in his first year? If there's a question, I'd rather pass and find a few guys later in the draft, far cheaper and work them in. There isn't too many guys who stepped right in and were a success at a 3-4 OLB position. Ware and Merriman, but not many others.

 

So, if you want to pick Orakpo, you better be sure because he is going to make a hell of a lot of money.

 

If I'm picking at #5 I want a guy that will come in and be an impact player, right now. I don't care what position, if he can make an immediate impact he makes the team better.

 

Absolutely you must get a STARTER with the #5 pick. Thats a lot of $$ for developing.

[Oldcrow1945]

I dont' remember Ghoulston dominating top opponents.

 

Orakpo dominated two blue chip LT's, one from Oklahoma, and had great games.

 

.

 

You didn't see the Michigan game where Gholston beat Jake long twice? It was the first sack Long gave up that year.

 

The season previous, he not only ran over Long on one play, he ran over the next blocker and still got to the Henne.

 

We are talking Jake Long here....Phil Loadholt isn't even close. Who is the other blue chipper that Orakpo had a great game against?

 

 

 

His sophomore year.

 

 

This is his junior year. At the 2:32 point is where he completely runs past Jake Long.

 

[Guest Aloysius]

Looks stiffer than Orakpo. You don't see him "bend the edge" much. And when he does, it's against RT's or inferior competition. Contrast that with Orakpo, who gave Loadholt and Russell Okung fits.

 

There's some risk with any 3-4 front seven projection; Orakpo's no exception. But his upside is incredibly enticing.

 

I'd take Osackpo over anyone in this draft not named Aaron Curry.

[Oldcrow1945]

Looks stiffer than Orakpo. You don't seeing him "bend the edge" much. And when he does, it's against RT's or inferior competition. Contrast that with Orakpo, who gave Loadholt and Russell Okung fits.

 

There's some risk with any 3-4 front seven projection; Orakpo's no exception. But his upside is incredibly enticing.

 

I'd take Osackpo over anyone in this draft not named Aaron Curry.

 

Actually his stiffness wasn't the point of the post......It was a response to another post that said he didn't dominate against big time talent. I think Long is Bigger than the two mentioned in your post.

I'm not even sure how much Orakpo lined up against Okung on the right side.

 

I'll go with Mayock's analysis......"His effort isn't consistant. He seems to disappear at times. I'd be shocked if he weren't a top ten pick but at #5 I'm just not an Orakpo guy at that level".

[Guest Aloysius]

Actually his stiffness wasn't the point of the post....It was that he did dominate against big time opponents. Bigger than the two mentioned in your post.

Oh, I don't contest that Gholston was a dominant college player. I'm focusing more on the skills that project to NFL success, particularly as a 3-4 linebacker.

 

The stiffness affects Gholston's ability to play in space. When I watched the prospects run through LB drills at the Combine last year, I though Chris Long looked more like a guy capable of transitioning to linebacker. In reality, both players are probably better off playing 4-3 end.

 

Also, I think one of Gholston's problems is that he was able to physically overwhelm guys at the collegiate level, whereas he'll need to refine his hand usage and rush moves to have consistent success as a rusher in the NFL. Orakpo needs some work in this area too, but he's got the quickness to beat guys with speed. Plus, he's shown the commitment to improving his game, spending the '08 offseason studying martial arts in order to improve his hand play. I've heard that some question Gholston's desire to be great; I don't think that's much of a concern with Osackpo.

 

I'll go with Mayhock's analysis......"His effort isn't consistant. He seems to disappear at times. I'd be shocked if he weren't a top ten pick but at #5 I'm just not an Orakpo guy at that level".

Don't know what's up with Mayock. A couple months ago, he was saying that Orakpo reminded him of DeMarcus Ware and Aaron Curry could play anywhere in any scheme. Now, he's a hell of a lot more skeptical about Orakpo and is "more comfortable" projecting Curry to a 4-3 front. And then there's the whole Robert Ayers thing...

 

Still have a ton of respect for the guy's opinion. Just wish I could get a clearer explanation for why his views are evolving. Watched the Alabama-Tennessee game because he mentioned that Ayers dominated Andre Smith, and I saw a guy reducing inside to use his good but not great quickness to beat Bama's LG. Watched the Texas-Oklahoma State game because he mentioned how Pettigrew handled Orakpo, and I see Orakpo overwhelm a future 1st round left tackle.

 

Just don't get why Ayers is suddenly a better prospect than Orakpo and Curry.