I turned Brown

[The Gipper]

I gotta go. Catch you later Gip.

 

I understand the love for the Browns stay in Cleveland. But the team left and changed their name. It's a sad thing.

 

Go Browns and don't call me anything else.

Well, it didn't....and if you want to wager and lose your hard earned money to me, I will be glad to take it from you.

 

The Browns franchise stayed in Cleveland. A new franchise was created in Baltimore.

These are historical facts.....as much as is the fact that the North won the Civil War. An atomic bomb was dropped on Hiroshima. Lincoln and Kennedy were assasinated.

Historical facts.

 

Lemonade...its delicious.

[DieHardBrownsFan]

Well, it didn't....and if you want to wager and lose your hard earned money to me, I will be glad to take it from you.

 

The Browns franchise stayed in Cleveland. A new franchise was created in Baltimore.

These are historical facts.....as much as is the fact that the North won the Civil War. An atomic bomb was dropped on Hiroshima. Lincoln and Kennedy were assasinated.

Historical facts.

 

Lemonade...its delicious.

[One Post]

Well, it didn't....and if you want to wager and lose your hard earned money to me, I will be glad to take it from you.

 

The Browns franchise stayed in Cleveland. A new franchise was created in Baltimore.

These are historical facts.....as much as is the fact that the North won the Civil War. An atomic bomb was dropped on Hiroshima. Lincoln and Kennedy were assasinated.

Historical facts.

 

Lemonade...its delicious.

Ok Gip you win.

 

 

The Browns left Cleveland and moved to Baltimore then changed their name. If any record of the Ravens being the Ravens before the move I see your point. But hey Gip you're the man.

 

I like the Browns now and fuck the Cards, anyway you slice it don't doubt my fandom. Peace.

[One Post]

No, dumbass.....you have no clue what a "franchise" is apparently. A franchise can and has existed even though it does not field a team. It has happened more than once in history. It has happened to the Rams, the Steelers...and even the Cardinals.

When an expansion franchise is created....it is still a franchise upon its creation. It may not take the field for a couple of years, yet that franchise still exists. Happened with the Jag/Panthers/Texans etc.

Not sure why you are so obtuse over this concept.

Ok so a franchise has no owner or players or coaches much less a stadium? No money or play an nfl game in three years. Yep I'm a dumbass. Hey here in virden il I dream of an nfl team so I guess I have a franchise.

[flyingfooldoug]

The way I recall it, Modell left and took some people with him. He left behind the name, colors and trophy case. The team didn't play for 3 years. Then returned to the field under the ownership of Al Lerner

[The Gipper]

Ok Gip you win.

 

 

The Browns left Cleveland and moved to Baltimore then changed their name. If any record of the Ravens being the Ravens before the move I see your point. But hey Gip you're the man.

OK, you are being foolish again. A. the Browns never left Cleveland....never changed their name.

The Ravens were a new franchise created in 1996....so,no, you won't see any record of them before then...just like you won't see any record of any other expansion franchise before they actually took the field.

 

I like the Browns now and fuck the Cards, anyway you slice it don't doubt my fandom. Peace.

I will try not to. Love and Understanding. What's so funny about that?

[The Gipper]

Ok so a franchise has no owner or players or coaches much less a stadium? No money or play an nfl game in three years. Yep I'm a dumbass. Hey here in virden il I dream of an nfl team so I guess I have a franchise.

Yes...sort of. It was held in trust...and being managed by a Trustee. They began a process for finding a new owner. (Al Lerner became the successful bidder...and he in fact owned the team for about a year and a half before it retook the field, taking over managment from the Trustee). They were in the process of tearing down the old and building the new stadium. They began a process of acquiring players.

But, no, they had money. In the interim the money was seed money provided by the NFL....then Lerner provided all the operating costs when he took over.

If you in Virden Ill.....have an official franchise charter issued to you by the NFL.....and if you had a headquarters building, and a training facility....as the Browns had and maintained all the time, then perhaps you could have had an NFL franchise.

Did you have that? Of course not.

 

I really don't think this is all that complicated to comprehend. Let me try this:

 

I can own say, a McDonald's franchise....issued to me by the McDonald's corporation. (McDonald's does have area franchises that are being held by corporate, waiting for people to buy the franchise). It is still a franchise, even if I haven't built the building, hired the employees, or fried a single hamburger yet.

YOU can't have that McDonald's franchise until you bid for it.

[The Gipper]

The way I recall it, Modell left and took some people with him. He left behind the name, colors and trophy case. The team didn't play for 3 years. Then returned to the field under the ownership of Al Lerner

Yes, Modell surrendered his right to the Cleveland franchise. The NFL awarded him the new Baltimore franchise....later called Ravens.

Name/colors/trophies are just accoutrements of the franchise itself.

[Tour2ma]

The way I recall it, Modell left and took some people with him. He left behind the name, colors and trophy case. The team didn't play for 3 years. Then returned to the field under the ownership of Al Lerner

 

Sort of... leaving the franchise behind was not voluntary.

• On November 6, 1995^... Modell announced in a press conference at Camden Yards that he had signed a deal to relocate the Browns to Baltimore in 1996.
• The City of Cleveland sued Modell, the Browns, Stadium Corp, the Maryland Stadium Authority, and the authority's director, John A. Moag Jr...
• After extensive talks between the NFL, the Browns, and officials of the two cities, Cleveland accepted a legal settlement that would keep the Browns' legacy in Cleveland. This was announced on Feb. 8, 1996.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleveland_Browns_relocation_controversy#Announcing_the_move

https://web.archive.org/web/19961112100905/http://www.nfl.com/browns/agreement.html

 

Certainly Modell's original intent was to move the franchise. The name "Baltimore Browns" appeared in news articles.

 

Whether the franchise ever left depends upon how you view a very short window from the end of our '95 regular season on December 24th and the Feb, 1996 announcement of the settlement. I found some player transaction records in Jan, 1996, but the Browns team logo, not the name, were used to ID the organization making the moves. Modell also had offices in both cities for a period that included Feb, 1996.

 

 

 

A separate suit filed by Browns season ticket holders was not settled until 2001.

[hoorta]

Yes...sort of. It was held in trust...and being managed by a Trustee. They began a process for finding a new owner. (Al Lerner became the successful bidder...and he in fact owned the team for about a year and a half before it retook the field, taking over managment from the Trustee). They were in the process of tearing down the old and building the new stadium. They began a process of acquiring players.

But, no, they had money. In the interim the money was seed money provided by the NFL....then Lerner provided all the operating costs when he took over.

If you in Virden Ill.....have an official franchise charter issued to you by the NFL.....and if you had a headquarters building, and a training facility....as the Browns had and maintained all the time, then perhaps you could have had an NFL franchise.

Did you have that? Of course not.

 

I really don't think this is all that complicated to comprehend. Let me try this:

 

I can own say, a McDonald's franchise....issued to me by the McDonald's corporation. (McDonald's does have area franchises that are being held by corporate, waiting for people to buy the franchise). It is still a franchise, even if I haven't built the building, hired the employees, or fried a single hamburger yet.

YOU can't have that McDonald's franchise until you bid for it.

 

Lord, are we still arguing about this 21 years down the road? The simple way of looking at it is suppose Modell owned a McDonald's Franchise in Cleveland. He wanted to move everything to Baltimore. McDonald's says no, we'll grant you a new McD's franchise in Baltimore. The corporation takes control of the Cleveland franchise, and Modell moves all his employees to Baltimore to his new franchise. That's what happened in a nutshell. Some people still cant understand the difference between team and franchise. The Browns franchise never moved, and is still the exact same one since 1946. The Ravens were the expansion franchise, the 1999 Browns were an expansion team.

 

It's more than just semantics. I could pull 55 big guys off the street, and say I'm resurrecting the Dayton Triangles- I'd have a team, but I doubt the NFL would recognize me a a legit franchise.

[One Post]

I said you win GIp. Goddamn.

 

Go Browns!

[The Gipper]

I said you win GIp. Goddamn.

 

Go Browns!

There is no winning or losing. This was not a debate, where one opinion or another may prevail or be accepted. This was simply getting facts straight.

[Zombo]

I said you win GIp. Goddamn.

 

Go Browns!

 

This is his "thing".

 

Now you know.

 

It is much more fun when unleashed on a Steeler fan ... or the Holy Grail of elusive trolls ... the Ratbird fan.

 

Zombo

[One Post]

This is his "thing".

 

Now you know.

 

It is much more fun when unleashed on a Steeler fan ... or the Holy Grail of elusive trolls ... the Ratbird fan.

 

Zombo

Lesson learned. Fwiw I hate the Ravens too. Fuck Ray Lewsis and his big mouth and fake religion. He needs to be in prison and Joe Flacco is gay.

[The Gipper]

 

This is his "thing".

 

Now you know.

 

It is much more fun when unleashed on a Steeler fan ... or the Holy Grail of elusive trolls ... the Ratbird fan.

 

Zombo

Unfortunately it seems that about every few months we have to educate people on this....friend or foe.

[One Post]

Unfortunately it seems that about every few months we have to educate people on this....friend or foe.

You teach me about the Browns and I'll teach you how to break a metphormin 1000mg tablet with one hand. It's quite a feat actually.

[One Post]

But ya Gip the Browns didn't exist for three seasons. No owner or players yep I'm obtuse.

[flyingfooldoug]

This is his "thing".

 

Now you know.

 

It is much more fun when unleashed on a Steeler fan ... or the Holy Grail of elusive trolls ... the Ratbird fan.

 

Zombo

Fwiw, most stool fans are obvious living proof that anal sex can and does result in pregnancy. Flying rat fans are the droppings of stool fans. And they do tend to make it obvious.

[Orion]

 

 

....and look what they went it did to our uni's!

 

--------------

Baltimore moves to Indy

St. Louis moves to Arizona

Los Angeles moves to St. Louis

Cleveland moves to Baltimore

Browns didn't move to Baltimore

Cleveland gets a new franchise

Baltimore got the new franchise.....again these are the Facts. Sorry if you are clueless about them. (and it would be better to use the name of the teams that did actually move....I don't think the earth shook and Los Angeles ended up in the middle of the country....the Rams franchise did move all those times. The Browns franchise never moved at all, ever.

Los Angeles who moved to St. Louis moves back to Los Angeles

 

...certainly, in hindsight it looks like total madness.

 

 

I used city names for a reason. (you don't get it, I understand that )

 

And the Browns most certainly DID move to Baltimore. (you must have missed it)

 

It was later determined that they weren't allowed to keep the nickname of Browns, the colors or tradition.and had to pick new nickname with new colors...because Cleveland was getting a new franchise (with a new plan B expansion draft) and would be using the name Browns with the namesake's past history & tradition.

[The Gipper]

You teach me about the Browns and I'll teach you how to break a metphormin 1000mg tablet with one hand. It's quite a feat actually.

When you begin your own Metphormin Board, and if you see me sign up to participate in that, yes you can teach me about it.

[The Gipper]

 

I used city names for a reason. (you don't get it, I understand that )

I get it...you were being an ass.

 

And the Browns most certainly DID move to Baltimore. (you must have missed it)

NO, they didn't. Put some money on it.

 

It was later determined that they weren't allowed to keep the nickname of Browns, the colors or tradition.and had to pick new nickname with new colors...because Cleveland was getting a new franchise (with a new plan B expansion draft) and would be using the name Browns with the namesake's past history & tradition.

Except...of course, you are dead wrong...and obstinately stupidly so.

The Browns franchise didn't leave Cleveland. It stayed here. The Ravens were the expansion team.

There was an injunction....and the Browns never left. There was settlement...and the Browns never left.

 

The only people that agree with me are: The Cleveland Browns, The Baltimore Ravens, the National Football League, the city of Cleveland, the county of Cuyahoga, the State of Ohio, the State of Maryland, the City/County of Baltimore.

And who is it that agrees with you?

Crickets.

[One Post]

It's ok Orion were too obtuse to understand the invisible team that was in Cleveland for three years.

[DieHardBrownsFan]

Browns left. We got an 'expansion team' called the Browns who have sucked ass since. Who gives a fuck what he says,.

[gumby73]

It's ok Orion were too obtuse to understand the invisible team that was in Cleveland for three years.

You may have turned Brown but when the league let Art turn his back on Cleveland, I turned my ass to a job in NC The whole thing was a mess. For starters, look at our whole coaching staff at time of Art's Fart..

[hoorta]

It's ok Orion were too obtuse to understand the invisible team that was in Cleveland for three years.

 

Me and Gip argued with Baltomorons for years over the facts. I got my screen name the Hoorta because of it. You can believe whatever the hell you want to, but it doesn't change the facts one bit. Click on the "in trust" link to find out what that legally means- and don't argue with Gip, he's a lawyer.

 

You and Orion can disagree with Wiki if you like.

 

"In 1995, owner Art Modell, who had purchased the Browns in 1961, announced plans to move the team to Baltimore Maryland. After threats of legal action from the city of Cleveland and fans, a compromise was reached in early 1996 that allowed Modell to establish the Baltimore Ravens as a new franchise while retaining the contracts of all Browns personnel. The Browns' intellectual property, including team name, logos, training facility, and history, were kept in trust and the (Browns) franchise was regarded by the NFL as suspended. A new team would be established by 1999 either by expansion or relocation. The Browns were announced as an expansion team in 1998 and resumed play in 1999.^"

 

^{Or maybe the Pro Football Hall of Fame, the NFL'S official record keeper.}

 

"Determined to keep the team in Cleveland, Browns fans and Cleveland city officials orchestrated an unprecedented grass-roots campaign to block the move. The NFL quickly responded and, working with city officials, developed a unique solution that not only provided for a new state-of-the-art stadium, but guaranteed the return of pro football to Cleveland by no later than 1999. Additionally, Art Modell agreed to relinquish the "Browns" name, colors and team history to the new owner of the suspended franchise."

[One Post]

I understand and Gip set me straight. I learned something today. I was just giving him shit. Peace

 

 

But however even wiki says they are an expansion team? So Modell leaves then Cleveland is an expansion team with same uni's.

 

See I thought the Browns moved and then they changed their name. Actually the moved but didn't have the rights to be called the Browns. I also thought Cleveland gets expansion team and called them the Browns because they missed them. Yep Gip was right.

[Orion]

 

and don't argue with Gip, he's a lawyer.

 

I don't care who he thinks he is.

 

The Browns organization moved to Baltimore and we were given an expansion team. But you can believe that technically a tree is a rock if you want.

[hoorta]

 

I don't care who he thinks he is.

 

The Browns organization moved to Baltimore and we were given an expansion team. But you can believe that technically a tree is a rock if you want.

 

That's exactly what I said- but not an expansion franchise. Baltimore is the expansion franchise. Get it? The organization might have moved, but the Browns franchise did not. It was held in trust until Al Lerner ponied up the bucks to buy the rights to the (original) Browns franchise. That meant all the intellectual property, colors and records.

 

If you still can't see the difference, look no farther than the Indianapolis Colts. Irsay took everything with him along with the moving vans. That meant the horseshoe logo and Johnny Unitas' records. Modell didn't when he pulled out of town, just the players and front office personnel. Jim Brown's records still belong to Cleveland as well as the orange & brown. You might think that's splitting hairs, but legally there's a world of difference. I can't make it any simpler by using the analogy of a McDonald's Restaurant in Cleveland that sat empty for three years until it was reopened with new employees and management- it was still the same damn store.

[flyingfooldoug]

I don't care who he thinks he is.

 

The Browns organization moved to Baltimore and we were given an expansion team. But you can believe that technically a tree is a rock if you want.

What? Never heard of petrified wood?

[The Gipper]

I understand and Gip set me straight. I learned something today. I was just giving him shit. Peace

 

 

But however even wiki says they are an expansion team? So Modell leaves then Cleveland is an expansion team with same uni's.

 

See I thought the Browns moved and then they changed their name. Actually the moved but didn't have the rights to be called the Browns. I also thought Cleveland gets expansion team and called them the Browns because they missed them. Yep Gip was right.

Explanation about the "expansion" term. The franchise was NOT an expansion franchise....it was the same franchise. However, in order to replenish the on field personell of the franchise...read "players", the NFL held a "distribution draft" of current NFL players, which was essentially the same process that had been held a number of times for new expansion franchises. So, it wasn't really an "expansion draft" but because it was essentially the same process, the term "expansion draft" was basically applied.

(the one big difference between the Browns "expansion draft" and those of the Jags or Panthers is that the NFL vastly limited the number of players available to the Browns compared to those other teams.