I called it before the season started that some of you wouldn't make it halfway through before..

[TexasAg1969]

what we need most that we've been missing since the rebirth is a roster.

 

i mean a roster with more than just 2-3 guys you can point to. a roster of linemen on both sides of the ball that will beat the piss out of you. thank you dallas and oakland and any other good team for pointing that out to fans of the diva WRs and flashy QBs. get the beef up front then add the steak sauce.

 

Is that hearsay or heresy? Or both?

[flyingfooldoug]

Yeah I don't get it. Every year - "we need stability guys! but, we need to find the right coach before stability!" You know, the one that can come in to an organisation that is 37-90 since 2008, has basically like 3 good players, and immediately turn them in to a winning team based on less and less coaching time allowed. That guy, that'll be obvious right? And so we just keep firing guys after a year or two until we find him?

A stat that's even worse. Since 1999 we are 5-11 average overall

[gftChris]

A stat that's even worse. Since 1999 we are 5-11 average overall

The one thing that struck me is that .500 stat. Since the birth of the franchise, the browns had never been at .500, let alone below it. The days of newsome, brown, kosar etc meant that even though this team has lost about a hundred more games than it's won since its return in '99, the total record was still a winning one. This shell of a franchise has finally even sucked that record away.

 

I guess it's a sign of parity, it's just taken a generation of losing to overcome the generation(s) of winning previously. Maybe now we can move forward, and keep this franchise over .500.

[Bob806]

Stinkhole, Hue WANTED to come here. He WANTED this, a chance to turn it around. He has made some dumb moves for sure, but I for one thinks that he can get the ship righted.

 

Yeah, the way it looks the Browns blew a few games early, and 0-16 is looking real unless there's a turnover fest or a nasty weather game that turns into a game neutralizer.

 

The diehards will hang on. This sucks now & has sucked bad since 2007. Mostly sucked since Modell fired Paul Brown.

 

Stand pat in the draft, no trading down, and better days lie ahead.

[jiggins7919]

Listen, I would guess that 99% of Browns fans KNOW that "blowing it up" isn't the right thing to do, but what people need to understand is fans are absurdly frustrated. Fans don't really have an outlet for that frustration OTHER than saying "fire the coach!" or "fire the DC!". The team obviously isn't going to get a new owner, so what is there REALLY to change, right?

 

I don't know one single fan who REALLY thought we'd have a good season. In fact, most of us were solidly rooted in the "this year will completely suck" camp, but even those people probably didn't think we'd be 0-10. Even ONE victory helps and lessens the sting of complete suckdom, and to be honest, WE SHOULD'VE HAD that one victory. Hell, we probably should've had more than one. I said before the season started that we might actually shock some people, and start off 2-2, or 2-3...something like that. I wasn't THAT far off, as we came out swinging and just couldn't finish. I then said that once the injuries started to mount, we'd begin the severe losing because bad teams simply don't have the depth. That's where we're at now.

 

I want to win ONE game, and that's it. I want the top pick in the draft so bad I can taste it. As luck would have it, there is no "Andrew Luck or Jameis Winston" type QB coming out, and that's how it is for us. I could argue that Trubiskey has just as high of a ceiling, but whatever. We need the top pick so we can do whatever we want, whether it's trading it (noooo!), or just taking the guy we want. I think we still will win a game, but I also think the 49's will beat the Bears, so we won't be in jeopardy of losing the top selection.

 

Browns fans are tired of the losing, tired of looking like crap, and we want something to be proud of. That being said, I don't really believe ANYONE when they say Hue Jackson has to go. Even Ray Horton, who I NEVER loved, deserves two years. If we aren't making SOME kind of progress by 32 games, then yes...he can go. But we aren't losing Hue Jackson. Who could we POSSIBLY replace him with? So Browns fans, if you want to say "Fire Hue Jackson!", I get it, I really do. You're frustrated, and you should be. But I don't really believe that's truly what you want.

 

I like Cody Kessler, but I'm not sure he's more than a good backup. But guess what? How important is a backup QB in today's NFL? And you know what else? Maybe Cody continues to GET BETTER! Maybe he IS the guy. We don't know right now, and we can always hope. I DO KNOW that Cody needs more time to throw. I DO KNOW he needs a running game. And I DAMN SURE KNOW he needs a defense that can string together two solid halves and keep the opposition out of the damn end zone.

[gftChris]

I agree, and we *would* have had that one victory had our kicker not broken himself the day before the Miami game, or had we not had that XP blocked and returned against the Ravens, or, or, or...

 

It sucks that we're winless but if we reset the season and run it through again a hundred times, in 90% of them we're not winless at this stage. We probably end up somewhere between 2-14 and 5-11.

[flyingfooldoug]

Ya, if anything gets blown up, it should be the owner. Hopefully he gets it before then. I still don't quite get the chain of command yet. Guess I'm still old skool... Hire a GM, he is in charge of hiring a coach and axes staff as needed. Farmer was a puppet gm and now it's a triad? Quad? Duo? Poof! It's like....confusing.

[gftChris]

Ya, if anything gets blown up, it should be the owner. Hopefully he gets it before then. I still don't quite get the chain of command yet. Guess I'm still old skool... Hire a GM, he is in charge of hiring a coach and axes staff as needed. Farmer was a puppet gm and now it's a triad? Quad? Duo? Poof! It's like....confusing.

It's like Jimmy has deferred power to Sashi, to be 'decision maker in chief', where big decisions are made by a committee of he, paul depodesta, hue jackson and maybe the relevant other guy - andrew berry for player acquisition, ray horton for defensive stuff, pep hamilton for offensive stuff etc.

 

Sashi has the final say, and it's his job to not fall in love with a player, or overreact to a few bad games etc.

[jiggins7919]

I think we're going to be ok, but it'll take some time. Let's look at this last draft for instance. I've heard that it takes a few years until the success/failure of a draft can fully be evaluated, but when we look at this previous draft, I think I can make an argument for it being a success. Was it perfect? Of course not. Did we miss on players? Hell yes we did, as did other teams. Nobody saw Dak Prescott being that good, and while he went to the perfect team, it's safe to say that he took those advantages and ran with them. But let's look at what we DO have. Coleman shows promise, and was derailed by a crazy, bullshit injury. Just our luck. Ogbah has flashed, but remains largely inconsistent to my eyes. He does NOT, however, appear to be a "bust". He needs to finish strong, and it was good to see him get a few hits on Flacco. That one penalty on him was total crap. Nassib has also flashed, although his play seems to have tailed off after the injury. He remains a threat to knock down passes, and his motor is high, but he too needs to finish strong. Seth Devalve has struggled just to get on the field, and his injury history has definitely flared up in the worst way. But you know what? We thought he could be a mismatch guy, and he put that on full display with that incredible touchdown against the Ravens. This was no 4 yard quick hitch, it was a deep pass beautifully executed by our offense that gave us the LEAD. No garbage time here. It was a huge play. To me, that's promise.

 

And what about the Collins trade? It was a shocking, ballsy, and amazing trade we executed to give us a defensive spark, and it worked. Now, Collins is just one guy, but his presence has been noted. He literally can "do it all", but nothing will matter with him if he walks at the end of the year. I don't care WHAT IT TAKES, we simply must lock him up. I don't care if he's the highest paid player on our team. He's THAT important.

 

Although not a draft pick, how about Terrell Pryor? Just like with Collins, we HAVE to find a way to lock him up as well. We found Pryor, nurtured his ability, and we need to KEEP HIM. He's another success story, as is Cody Kessler. As I previously stated, Cody might not be the starter we so desperately need, but at the very least, he IS a solid backup. That's important, and we drafted him.

 

What I'm saying is, we actually have a few successes. It might not mean much because we're 0-10, but I think it does. We're building a FOUNDATION. 2017 Draft will mean everything for our team. But the front office we have now made some good moves, we've selected some promising young guys, and I think maybe...just maybe...we have finally got it right. Talk to me this time NEXT year, and let's see where we are. Do I expect to make the playoffs next year? No, no I don't. But do I expect us to be CLOSE? Yep.

[The Gipper]

Harry Potter cunt LOL

[Tour2ma]

What I'm saying is, we actually have a few successes. It might not mean much because we're 0-10, but I think it does. We're building a FOUNDATION. 2017 Draft will mean everything for our team. But the front office we have now made some good moves, we've selected some promising young guys, and I think maybe...just maybe...we have finally got it right. Talk to me this time NEXT year, and let's see where we are. Do I expect to make the playoffs next year? No, no I don't. But do I expect us to be CLOSE? Yep.

 

With you all the way up to your 2017 expectations... Close to the playoffs? No... can't see 7-9 or so in 2017 from where we are now.

 

Yes... we could have, maybe should have won as many as two games to date this season, but we did not. This is a team that is still finding ways to lose. Step one is to break that habit, stay in every game and make opponents earn every victory. Step two is finding a way to win close games. Step three? Find ways to win games when we are being outplayed. To my mind playoff contention comes somewhere between steps two and three.

 

Learning how to win is one of those NFL cliches we hear repeatedly, but it is one I believe to be true.

[jiggins7919]

Yeah, it's tough to argue with you, but I can see us making some progress and being 6-10 next year. If you win 6 games, you probably lost a handful of others that were close, and it means the playoffs might be right around the corner. Of course, when you're 0-10, 6 wins seems like a total pipe dream, but I don't want people to forget he won 8 games in Oakland with marginal talent. I realize 8 games isn't the "be all, end all" of coaching achievements, but it's not bad considering what that team was working with.

 

Nothing is going to matter until we get our defense shored up. The back end is utterly atrocious, and we all know our pass rush completely sucks too. We took steps to address that in the 2016 draft and trading for Collins, so hopefully in 2017 we reap the rewards. The back end will be infinitely more difficult, as rookies tend to have a very high learning curve, and shouldn't be counted on to kick ass right away. Veteran safeties and corners that are quality players, either don't leave or will command a shitload of money. Remember our safety Gipson? Yeah, he sucks btw. Like...big time in Jax. Justin Gilbert not working out basically destroyed us. We need SO MUCH secondary help, that it's not possible to fix in one offseason. Hope I'm wrong.

 

Our biggest hope for a quicker turnaround is the play of Cody Kessler. If he can find his niche and pick up the pace scoring points (doesn't have to WIN, but does need to increase 3rd down and point totals), we can win 6 games or so MUCH faster than if he doesn't work out. I mean, think about it. If Cody ISN'T the guy...who in the natural HELL is going to suit up as QB? I went back and watched Cody's drives against the Ravens, and you know what? The kid hardly EVER had enough time to throw. So guess what happened? Cody got "happy feet" and bailed on the pocket before he really had to a few times, and THAT'S what probably pissed off Hue Jackson the most (only my opinion). I went back and saw a few times where Cody just bailed out and rolled right WAY before he had to, but it was really hard to blame him. Baltimore sent multiple blitzes from about every angle possible, and our genius OL wasn't always able to pick them up efficiently. We did have a few good plays too, one of them early when Vitale picked up a hard charging blitzer, and Cody found Coleman for a nice little gain of around 9 yards. Problem is, that was the exception, not the rule.

 

Something else I noticed was the obvious attempt at looking down the field, but either we didn't have the time for the route to develop, or Cody went elsewhere with the ball. I also saw two pass interferences that weren't called...both on 3rd down. So if the defense is loading up against the pass, why can't we run it? Why can't we get 4-5 yards on some runs? How are the backs getting hit in the backfield so much? Why did we run like one quick slant? Why didn't we try some crossing patterns like Baltimore killed us with? Where was the creativity?

 

We have a long ways to go, and maybe I'm wrong. Maybe we DO completely suck next year and we have another round of "hoping to win one game". But I don't think so. I'm giving Hue a lot of credit here, but I'm hoping he takes the painful lessons from the Ravens game, the Cowboys game, the Bengals and every other loss and applies the data towards finding solutions. Yeah, we look awful right now. We look like we don't have ANYTHING. Nothing on offense, next to nothing on defense, and a whole lot of crap in between. But right now it's about surviving. Keep the staff together, use our draft picks well, sign some free agents if possible, AND KEEP COLLINS AND PRYOR. I think we can get better, and I'd love nothing more than for us to close out the season on a strong note. Maybe not winning 3 in a row, but just playing better football. With all that said, here's what I can tell you with 100% certainty: If we don't figure out a way to run the ball and give our QB some time to throw, NOTHING will matter. The run sets up the entire ballgame, and it's the primary reason Cody isn't scoring more points.

[Tour2ma]

... and certainly your optimism is only outsized compared to my skepticism which restricts me to 4-ish wins in 2018 2017.

 

OL: Getting Bito back certainly helps shore up the OL leaving only one widely accepted hole. Even on our existing roster there are two possible solutions that would allow his replacement with the thickest resume, Greco, to slide over permanently: Drango or Paz... with the latter requiring Shon Coleman to finally step up. Either of which still leaves Reiter as a fall back direct replacement.

 

Front 7: A Garett (4-3 DE) or Allen (3-4) opposite an extended Collins appeals. Add a returning Des Bryant, Ogbah and Stample, and a developed Nassib?

 

2ndary: A new safety to pair with the winner of a Poyer/Kindred/Campbell competition?

 

And then it's on the QB... agree there are signs of Kess possibilities, but the unresolved shadow of RG3 lingers as well. That resolution should indicate how deep the belief in Kess is.

[hoorta]

OL: Getting Bito back certainly helps shore up the OL leaving only one widely accepted hole. Even on our existing roster there are two possible solutions that would allow his replacement with the thickest resume, Greco, to slide over permanently: Drango or Paz... with the latter requiring Shon Coleman to finally step up. Either of which still leaves Reiter as a fall back direct replacement.

And then it's on the QB... agree there are signs of Kess possibilities, but the unresolved shadow of RG3 lingers as well. That resolution should indicate how deep the belief in Kess is.

 

Yeah, why Hue keeps trotting Erving out there is a mystery.

With the current state of our o-line Tour, should Hue decide to activate Griffin (and I'm hoping not) my over\under for another injury is one game.

[Tour2ma]

With the current state of our o-line Tour, should Hue decide to activate Griffin (and I'm hoping not) my over\under for another injury is one game.

 

I have to believe that's in the plan, h. And I'll take the over... hell, he got two starts out the gate... why not again?

[jiggins7919]

If RG III gets the clean bill of health, then you can bet your bottom dollar we'll see him before the end of the year. Why? Because we're 0-10 and you have to try EVERYTHING, right? We all know that RG III didn't look good against the Eagles, but we also know that several OTHER teams also struggled against their defense. I honestly didn't think they were that good, but they've put the stink on several teams that are much better than us, so I'm guessing the Eagles D is pretty stout. That begs the question...what does RG III look like against a bad defense? The biggest complaint I have regarding Kessler isn't the fact that he doesn't push the ball down the field, it's the fact that he's so damn slow. I watch other QB's in the NFL that have speed, and it's such a luxury to have a guy that can make something out of nothing when the pocket collapses. (BTW, I'd KILL to see Johnny Manziel play for Hue Jackson).

 

Cody isn't a "bad athlete", far from it. Problem is, defenders are just too damn fast these days. Hell, Cody averaged like 30 points a game in basketball as a senior...the guy is an athlete, he's just "slow" by NFL standards. If you have the stomach for it, go back and watch some of Cody's performances. Watch for the open running lanes he has in front of him. I've seen signs when he could literally run for 15 yards and slide without being touched. Now, we all know we'd rather have a QB stand in the pocket and deliver the ball, but Cody has left some HUGE yards on the field.

 

Anyways, back to RG III. I have exactly ZERO confidence in his ability to play QB in the NFL. Maybe I'm being rough on the guy, but I doubt it. I actually hope he DOES get another few starts because his injury was total crap. In fact, I've never seen one like it. How he could not get out of bounds without hurting himself is beyond me, but whatever. The only DOWN side of RG III starting is that it'd take away experience from Kessler. Right now, we want Cody to get as much experience as humanly possible, which makes taking him out of the game against Baltimore all the more befuddling. Why take him out in a close game? Isn't that the EXACT experience you want to see? Your young QB in a tight game where every snap matters? And I wouldn't have cared AS MUCH about the benching if Hue didn't double down after the game by saying he supported his own decision to bench Cody and play McCown, who promptly shit the bed with spectacular fashion.

 

Cody is about to get the indoctrination to the Steelers "rivalry" this weekend (and when I say rivalry, I mean "perpetual ass kicking"). But that's GOOD. We need to throw the kid into the fire and see what happens. The Steelers are coming off a gut-wrenching loss to the powerful Cowboys. It's safe to say that we're going to be getting their best shot. If you have Antonio Brown or Leveon Bell on your fantasy team, you might want to celebrate early. They might combine for a billion points. I don't know about you guys, but I'm kind of interested to see how Cody responds to the benching. I believe it was the first time in his life that he's ever been taken out of a game for performance reasons. Think about that for a minute. We need everything in the cosmic universe to go our way in order to secure a victory...but you know what? Maybe it's time for just that to happen. Screw the Steelers.

[Clevfan4life]

If we draft defense with the first pick next year it's hard for me to justify another front 7 pick. The exception being Peppers who could hybrid LB/safety. Otherwise defensively, good god we need secondary talent. I just can't justify Garrett or Allen over the secondary or for that matter if there's stud OL that are gonna go top 10 we need that. We have to start building up the O line and getting a RT that could take over for JT in a year or two would be my utmost preference. As bad as things are now, when JT leaves and shit is stil the same across the rest of the O line....omg our offense is going to be shit and we'll have to keep a 4 QB rotation. If after next year Ogbah and Nassib aren't showing much improvement than fine, they can play out their rookie contracts as depth and we can go get another front 4 guy.

[Clevfan4life]

Maybe young Bosa will have matured his game by then and we'll be in the market for him.........

[Clevfan4life]

and if we draft Nick, there's a possibility we could entice Joey to sign here when his rookie deal is up with SD. Those two have wanted to play together forever.

[tiamat63]

If we draft defense with the first pick next year it's hard for me to justify another front 7 pick. The exception being Peppers who could hybrid LB/safety. Otherwise defensively, good god we need secondary talent. I just can't justify Garrett or Allen over the secondary or for that matter if there's stud OL that are gonna go top 10 we need that. We have to start building up the O line and getting a RT that could take over for JT in a year or two would be my utmost preference. As bad as things are now, when JT leaves and shit is stil the same across the rest of the O line....omg our offense is going to be shit and we'll have to keep a 4 QB rotation. If after next year Ogbah and Nassib aren't showing much improvement than fine, they can play out their rookie contracts as depth and we can go get another front 4 guy.

If you don't see an elite DB, next best way to improve your secondary is pass rush.

[Clevfan4life]

If you don't see an elite DB, next best way to improve your secondary is pass rush.

 

I know, there's just so many glaring needs. Tough to convince me OL isn't one of our most pressing needs with JT's retirement looming. I love defense i want the next joey B, but i can't condone overlooking those other positions. Especially since we have a budding receiver corp, man just get our QB some time and even Kessler will look good. If teams have to pass more to keep up with us than that helps our pass rush

[wargograw]

... and certainly your optimism is only outsized compared to my skepticism which restricts me to 4-ish wins in 2018.

 

OL: Getting Bito back certainly helps shore up the OL leaving only one widely accepted hole. Even on our existing roster there are two possible solutions that would allow his replacement with the thickest resume, Greco, to slide over permanently: Drango or Paz... with the latter requiring Shon Coleman to finally step up. Either of which still leaves Reiter as a fall back direct replacement.

 

Front 7: A Garett (4-3 DE) or Allen (3-4) opposite an extended Collins appeals. Add a returning Des Bryant, Ogbah and Stample, and a developed Nassib?

 

2ndary: A new safety to pair with the winner of a Poyer/Kindred/Campbell competition?

 

And then it's on the QB... agree there are signs of Kess possibilities, but the unresolved shadow of RG3 lingers as well. That resolution should indicate how deep the belief in Kess is.

Please tell me you meant 2017.

[Canton Dawg]

If I'm not mistaken Romeo Crennel was the only fired browns coach to become a head coach elsewhere....but not immediately. He was a coordinator first and kind of fell into the position because he was already there.

Forrest Gregg & Marty Schottenheimer come to mind.

[tiamat63]

 

I know, there's just so many glaring needs. Tough to convince me OL isn't one of our most pressing needs with JT's retirement looming. I love defense i want the next joey B, but i can't condone overlooking those other positions. Especially since we have a budding receiver corp, man just get our QB some time and even Kessler will look good. If teams have to pass more to keep up with us than that helps our pass rush

Either way, Peppers isn't the player to help this secondary or front 7.

 

And if your belief is winning shoot outs, more often then not that bites you in the ass.

 

What we might do in free agency will affect our draft play. Like I've said (and Tour, apparently) taking a shot at Sheldon makes a lot of sense and immediately crosses a huge need off our board.

[Tour2ma]

Get your Bosa today! Collect them all!

 

If we draft defense with the first pick next year it's hard for me to justify another front 7 pick. The exception being Peppers who could hybrid LB/safety. Otherwise defensively, good god we need secondary talent. I just can't justify Garrett or Allen over the secondary...

 

Sounds like a vote for trade-down.

 

We've had the debate forever about QBs, but which are easier to find throughout the draft: stud edge men or stud Safeties? Throw CBs in the mix if you like.

 

In our case both certainly rate high on the need scale. Any difference would stem from the "hoped for" improvement by current roster players.

[Tour2ma]

Please tell me you meant 2017.

 

2017... you're welcome...

[Tour2ma]

What we might do in free agency will affect our draft play. Like I've said (and Tour, apparently) taking a shot at Sheldon makes a lot of sense and immediately crosses a huge need off our board.

 

I was certainly surprised we were not in the reported trade conversations with the Jets for Richardson, so, yes, I'd expect us to be one of his FA suitors.

 

Bryant-Shelton-Richardson would be a helluva base 3 fronting a 3-4. And on passing downs trot off Danny and bookend Des and Sheldon with Collins and a Player to be named/emerge/drafted? Wow...

 

#Front2Back&InsideOut4ever

[jiggins7919]

 

I was certainly surprised we were not in the reported trade conversations with the Jets for Richardson, so, yes, I'd expect us to be one of his FA suitors.

 

Bryant-Shelton-Richardson would be a helluva base 3 fronting a 3-4. And on passing downs trot off Danny and bookend Des and Sheldon with Collins and a Player to be named/emerge/drafted? Wow...

 

#Front2Back&InsideOut4ever

 

Yeah, I agree. I think we're going to TRY to make SOME kind of big splash, I really do.

[gftChris]

 

Yeah, I agree. I think we're going to TRY to make SOME kind of big splash, I really do.

What makes you think that? Because I am fully expecting us to go after tier 2/3 guys to supplement our home-grown talent. Maybe I'm wrong, and the Jamie Collins acquisition is a sign of things to come, but I saw it more as a shot in the arm of veteran leadership and quality that the D was sorely missing.

[jiggins7919]

What makes me think that is our front office keeps talking about "a plan". Surely the plan could involve building through the draft and inserting mid-tier veterans through free agency, but I just have a hunch we'll be going after somebody. I don't have anything to support this crazy theory, but I could see it happening...ESPECIALLY if we aren't able to keep Collins. If we are somehow able to sign Collins, then I don't think we'll sign a big name. Sashi didn't really comment on the contract situation of Collins, which made me sad. I sure was hoping to hear, "We're going to do everything we can to keep him here for a long time, and we don't care how much money it takes." LOL

 

I think we'll go after safety/corner back HARD in free agency.