OldBrownsFan Posted February 4, 2017 Author Report Share Posted February 4, 2017 Rational debate is hard when one side admittedly rejects critical thinking for blind faith. I will give you that point Woody but what I am saying is that there are others who are doing scientific studies who come at it more objectively with no dog in the fight except seeking the truth and I would refer you to those studies. In reality scientifically it cannot be proven either way right now if gays are born that way or it is a choice. My bias as a Christian is how can God be just in condemning a sin that people are "just born that way...not their fault". So it would take absolute proof to convince me otherwise it is not a choice behavior. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gftChris Posted February 4, 2017 Report Share Posted February 4, 2017 I will give you that point Woody but what I am saying is that there are others who are doing scientific studies who come at it more objectively with no dog in the fight except seeking the truth and I would refer you to those studies. In reality scientifically it cannot be proven either way right now if gays are born that way or it is a choice. My bias as a Christian is how can God be just in condemning a sin that people are "just born that way...not their fault". So it would take absolute proof to convince me otherwise it is not a choice behavior. Love the logic there. "God says it's a sin, so why would he make people gay? Clearly it's a choice" And for the rest of us that, I'm sorry, don't give a shit what the bible says, and are able to entertain rational thought? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieHardBrownsFan Posted February 4, 2017 Report Share Posted February 4, 2017 Love the logic there. "God says it's a sin, so why would he make people gay? Clearly it's a choice" And for the rest of us that, I'm sorry, don't give a shit what the bible says, and are able to entertain rational thought? When you are punished at the prescribed time, then you will give a shit. So enjoy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gftChris Posted February 4, 2017 Report Share Posted February 4, 2017 When you are punished at the prescribed time, then you will give a shit. So enjoy.You can't threaten me with something that doesn't exist. Actually, wait, *now* I get the scaremongering by republicans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieHardBrownsFan Posted February 4, 2017 Report Share Posted February 4, 2017 You can't threaten me with something that doesn't exist. Actually, wait, *now* I get the scaremongering by republicans. Just because you don't believe in it, doesn't mean it isn't true. Enjoy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldBrownsFan Posted February 4, 2017 Author Report Share Posted February 4, 2017 Love the logic there. "God says it's a sin, so why would he make people gay? Clearly it's a choice" And for the rest of us that, I'm sorry, don't give a shit what the bible says, and are able to entertain rational thought? You aren't reading my posts thoughtfully. I admit I come at the issue as biased because of my faith. So I come at the debate about being gay being a choice with studies from independent sources, scientists with no dog in the fight that support my bias towards the bible on the issue. I am not even using a biblical argument just admitting as a Christian I have a bias in believing being gay is a choice not biological. The gay friend my wife babysits for was married to a man once now she is living with a woman. These are choices she made. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieHardBrownsFan Posted February 4, 2017 Report Share Posted February 4, 2017 You aren't reading my posts thoughtfully. I admit I come at the issue as biased because of my faith. So I come at the debate about being gay being a choice with studies from independent sources, scientists with no dog in the fight that support my bias towards the bible on the issue. I am not even using a biblical argument just admitting as a Christian I have a bias in believing being gay is a choice not biological. The gay friend my wife babysits for was married to a man once now she is living with a woman. These are choices she made. My brothers wife's mother turned gay. Her husband died at age 49. He was banging his girl friend at the time. Big time trouble as you can imagine. I guess the gay gene all of the sudden kicked on in her mother, so she started carpet munching. Her oldest son, whom I saw at my mothers funeral told me, 'your mother will be in heaven, my mothers is going straight to hell'. They're Italian and very catholic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calfoxwc Posted February 4, 2017 Report Share Posted February 4, 2017 Posted Today, 01:18 PM OldBrownsFan, on 04 Feb 2017 - 11:41 AM, said: You aren't reading my posts thoughtfully. I admit I come at the issue as biased because of my faith. So I come at the debate about being gay being a choice with studies from independent sources, scientists with no dog in the fight that support my bias towards the bible on the issue. I am not even using a biblical argument just admitting as a Christian I have a bias in believing being gay is a choice not biological. The gay friend my wife babysits for was married to a man once now she is living with a woman. These are choices she made. My brothers wife's mother turned gay. Her husband died at age 49. He was banging his girl friend at the time. Big time trouble as you can imagine. I guess the gay gene all of the sudden kicked on in her mother, so she started carpet munching. Her oldest son, whom I saw at my mothers funeral told me, 'your mother will be in heaven, my mothers is going straight to hell'. They're Italian and very catholic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MLD Woody Posted February 4, 2017 Report Share Posted February 4, 2017 OBF, I'd still be interested in viewing what you think is a non biased study showing it's a choice. I also agree with Chris. So much of the Bible is ignored but not baking a cake for a gay couple is strictly upheld. And if I bring one instance up, we'll probably get another verse interpreted in a way to make ignoring the first OK But at the end of the day, if you take blind faith over critical thought, you've willingly mentally handicapped yourself and your opinion on a subject is severely compromised. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MLD Woody Posted February 4, 2017 Report Share Posted February 4, 2017 My bias as a Christian is how can God be just in condemning a sin that people are "just born that way...not their fault". So it would take absolute proof to convince me otherwise it is not a choice behavior. Wait Wait Wait. Now you're using that argument? God births a child to a Muslim family. Child dies young, never learned of Christianity. Child goes to hell, correct? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calfoxwc Posted February 4, 2017 Report Share Posted February 4, 2017 child does? Children are protected. Learn something instead of just asking stupid questions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Osiris Posted February 4, 2017 Report Share Posted February 4, 2017 OBF, I'd still be interested in viewing what you think is a non biased study showing it's a choice. I also agree with Chris. So much of the Bible is ignored but not baking a cake for a gay couple is strictly upheld. And if I bring one instance up, we'll probably get another verse interpreted in a way to make ignoring the first OK But at the end of the day, if you take blind faith over critical thought, you've willingly mentally handicapped yourself and your opinion on a subject is severely compromised. Here are 12 passages that discuss how Christians should treat immigrants, refugees and those in need of help. Love Refugees As Yourself When a foreigner resides among you in your land, do not mistreat them. The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. (Leviticus 19:33-34) Leave Food for the Poor and the Foreigner When you reap the harvest of your land, do not reap to the very edges of your field or gather the gleanings of your harvest. Do not go over your vineyard a second time or pick up the grapes that have fallen. Leave them for the poor and the foreigner. (Leviticus 19:9-10) God Loves the Foreigner Residing Among You He defends the cause of the fatherless and the widow, and loves the foreigner residing among you, giving them food and clothing. And you are to love those who are foreigners, for you yourselves were foreigners in Egypt. (Deuteronomy 10:18-19) The Sin of Sodom: They Did Not Help the Poor and Needy Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. (Ezekiel 16:49) Do Not Oppress a Foreigner Do not oppress a foreigner; you yourselves know how it feels to be foreigners, because you were foreigners in Egypt. (Exodus 23:9) Do Not Deprive Foreigners Among You of Justice "So I will come to put you on trial. I will be quick to testify against sorcerers, adulterers and perjurers, against those who defraud laborers of their wages, who oppress the widows and the fatherless, and deprive the foreigners among you of justice, but do not fear me, says the Lord Almighty. (Malachi 3:5) Do Whatever the Foreigner Asks of You As for the foreigner who does not belong to your people Israel but has come from a distant land because of your name for they will hear of your great name and your mighty hand and your outstretched armwhen they come and pray toward this temple, then hear from heaven, your dwelling place. Do whatever the foreigner asks of you, so that all the peoples of the earth may know your name and fear you, as do your own people Israel, and may know that this house I have built bears your Name. (1 Kings 8:41-44) Leave Your Door Open to the Traveler No stranger had to spend the night in the street, for my door was always open to the traveler (Job, discussing his devotion to God) (Job 31:32) Invite the Stranger In For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me. (Matthew 25:25-36) We Were All Baptized By One Spirit Just as a body, though one, has many parts, but all its many parts form one body, so it is with Christ. For we were all baptized by one Spirit so as to form one bodywhether Jews or Gentiles, slave or freeand we were all given the one Spirit to drink. Even so the body is not made up of one part but of many. (1 Corinthians 12:12-14) Love Your Neighbor as Yourself For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: Love your neighbor as yourself." (Galatians 5:14) Have Mercy on Your Neighbor He asked Jesus, And who is my neighbor? In reply Jesus said: A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, when he was attacked by robbers. They stripped him of his clothes, beat him and went away, leaving him half dead. A priest happened to be going down the same road, and when he saw the man, he passed by on the other side. So too, a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. But a Samaritan, as he traveled, came where the man was; and when he saw him, he took pity on him. He went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he put the man on his own donkey, brought him to an inn and took care of him. The next day he took out two denarii and gave them to the innkeeper. Look after him, he said, and when I return, I will reimburse you for any extra expense you may have. Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers? The expert in the law replied, The one who had mercy on him. Jesus told him, Go and do likewise." (Luke 10:29-37) Read more at http://www.relevantmagazine.com/god/what-bible-says-about-how-treat-refugees#kAfObf6GrzerRHbZ.99 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MLD Woody Posted February 4, 2017 Report Share Posted February 4, 2017 child does? Children are protected. Learn something instead of just asking stupid questions. We've been told on here before they go to hell. How about someone that lives to adulthood without ever having learned of Christianity? Do they go to hell? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calfoxwc Posted February 4, 2017 Report Share Posted February 4, 2017 I don't believe you have been told that ever. Look, take some time, Woody, and read up. It's complicated.... I'm no Bible scholar, obviously, but: https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/what-happens-to-those-who-never-hear-gospel age of accountability: http://www.whatchristianswanttoknow.com/where-do-babies-go-if-they-die-do-they-go-to-heaven-or-hell/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clevfan4life Posted February 4, 2017 Report Share Posted February 4, 2017 But osiris, to be fair, the bible isn't thinking that some of those foreigners have a small chance...but still a chance....of pulling out a machete and rampaging through your home. I have zero issue with Muslims that want to come here and be american first muslim second, as i feel someone of any religion ought to feel...im part of this soceity first my religion comes second. Period end of discussion. The societal function is paramount. You have to acknowledge that there's a small pernicious group of muslim that want to filter into the U.S to set up terror cells. And they can do alot of dmg. I don't have the answer on how to distinguish between them. So "for now", Trumps path is probably the correct path but it has to be done withouth the undertone of racism that he has allowed to creep in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbluhm86 Posted February 4, 2017 Report Share Posted February 4, 2017 child does? Children are protected. Learn something instead of just asking stupid questions. Yeah Woody, didn't you know? Children who don't know anything about Jeebus are protected...until they turn 18, I suppose. Then, they are adults who don't know anything about Jeebus, and they go straight to Hell then. Maybe Hell cards people in order to get in, 18+ only Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clevfan4life Posted February 4, 2017 Report Share Posted February 4, 2017 Yeah Woody, didn't you know? Children who don't know anything about Jeebus are protected...until they turn 18, I suppose. Then, they are adults who don't know anything about Jeebus, and they go straight to Hell then. Maybe Hell cards people in order to get in, 18+ only You say this like it doesnt make perfect sense Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Osiris Posted February 4, 2017 Report Share Posted February 4, 2017 But osiris, to be fair, the bible isn't thinking that some of those foreigners have a small chance...but still a chance....of pulling out a machete and rampaging through your home. I have zero issue with Muslims that want to come here and be american first muslim second, as i feel someone of any religion ought to feel...im part of this soceity first my religion comes second. Period end of discussion. The societal function is paramount. You have to acknowledge that there's a small pernicious group of muslim that want to filter into the U.S to set up terror cells. And they can do alot of dmg. I don't have the answer on how to distinguish between them. So "for now", Trumps path is probably the correct path but it has to be done withouth the undertone of racism that he has allowed to creep in. That probably wasn't a problem at the time, correct. but why do we give the Bible a pass for its passages being not historically relevant anymore and not the Quran? I agree, anyone who comes here needs to put American values before anything else, but as a Muslim, the "American first" notion isn't even a necessary distinction. My interpretation of the Qu'ran is such that it aligns just fine with American society and values. Of course there are people who want to come in and do damage to the USA, but have you looked at how intense the vetting process is for refugees? Do you think a would-be terrorist is going to try and take the refugee route given how hard it is to infiltrate that way? Or will they find other ways to either a- get here or b- try and radicalize Muslims that are already here from afar. And I know the answer of how to try and distinguish between them. Include patriotic Muslim-Americans in the vetting process and we'll be able to identify them using our knowledge of the religion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westside Steve Posted February 4, 2017 Report Share Posted February 4, 2017 Okay let's see some hands. Who's up for turning the other cheek? WSS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldBrownsFan Posted February 4, 2017 Author Report Share Posted February 4, 2017 We've been told on here before they go to hell. How about someone that lives to adulthood without ever having learned of Christianity? Do they go to hell? There is an age of accountability for all. It differs from person to person but there comes a time when a person reaches an age of accountability. Until that time they are not held accountable and will go to heaven. As for those who never heard the gospel they are judged by a different standard. How can someone accept a gospel they never heard? What about those who never heard? http://www.letusreason.org/Apolo17.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clevfan4life Posted February 4, 2017 Report Share Posted February 4, 2017 That probably wasn't a problem at the time, correct. but why do we give the Bible a pass for its passages being not historically relevant anymore and not the Quran? I agree, anyone who comes here needs to put American values before anything else, but as a Muslim, the "American first" notion isn't even a necessary distinction. My interpretation of the Qu'ran is such that it aligns just fine with American society and values. Of course there are people who want to come in and do damage to the USA, but have you looked at how intense the vetting process is for refugees? Do you think a would-be terrorist is going to try and take the refugee route given how hard it is to infiltrate that way? Or will they find other ways to either a- get here or b- try and radicalize Muslims that are already here from afar. And I know the answer of how to try and distinguish between them. Include patriotic Muslim-Americans in the vetting process and we'll be able to identify them using our knowledge of the religion. 1) it seems to me as if "some" muslims feel that in tje long run they'd like to see america move towards fundamental islam. Its no different than the fundamentalist christians that lament we've moved away from christian roots.... which is good we did or we'd still have shit like slavery still going 2) im not aware of how stringent or not the vetting process currently is. Without putting people on lie detector tests i find it dubious that some isis guy cant lie through his teetth to get in 3) ur idea about including muslims in the vetting process, orvatnleast using them heavily as consultants....is intriguing. It makes sense. Is it being done at all? And if you would, expect explain in detail how you, just as an example, might be able to flag a guy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldBrownsFan Posted February 4, 2017 Author Report Share Posted February 4, 2017 Wait Wait Wait. Now you're using that argument? God births a child to a Muslim family. Child dies young, never learned of Christianity. Child goes to hell, correct? No we believe all children (including those aborted) go to heaven until a child reaches an age of accountability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldBrownsFan Posted February 4, 2017 Author Report Share Posted February 4, 2017 Here are 12 passages that discuss how Christians should treat immigrants, refugees and those in need of help. Love Refugees As Yourself When a foreigner resides among you in your land, do not mistreat them. The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. (Leviticus 19:33-34) Leave Food for the Poor and the Foreigner When you reap the harvest of your land, do not reap to the very edges of your field or gather the gleanings of your harvest. Do not go over your vineyard a second time or pick up the grapes that have fallen. Leave them for the poor and the foreigner. (Leviticus 19:9-10) God Loves the Foreigner Residing Among You He defends the cause of the fatherless and the widow, and loves the foreigner residing among you, giving them food and clothing. And you are to love those who are foreigners, for you yourselves were foreigners in Egypt. (Deuteronomy 10:18-19) The Sin of Sodom: They Did Not Help the Poor and Needy Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. (Ezekiel 16:49) Do Not Oppress a Foreigner Do not oppress a foreigner; you yourselves know how it feels to be foreigners, because you were foreigners in Egypt. (Exodus 23:9) Do Not Deprive Foreigners Among You of Justice "So I will come to put you on trial. I will be quick to testify against sorcerers, adulterers and perjurers, against those who defraud laborers of their wages, who oppress the widows and the fatherless, and deprive the foreigners among you of justice, but do not fear me, says the Lord Almighty. (Malachi 3:5) Do Whatever the Foreigner Asks of You As for the foreigner who does not belong to your people Israel but has come from a distant land because of your name for they will hear of your great name and your mighty hand and your outstretched armwhen they come and pray toward this temple, then hear from heaven, your dwelling place. Do whatever the foreigner asks of you, so that all the peoples of the earth may know your name and fear you, as do your own people Israel, and may know that this house I have built bears your Name. (1 Kings 8:41-44) Leave Your Door Open to the Traveler No stranger had to spend the night in the street, for my door was always open to the traveler (Job, discussing his devotion to God) (Job 31:32) Invite the Stranger In For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me. (Matthew 25:25-36) We Were All Baptized By One Spirit Just as a body, though one, has many parts, but all its many parts form one body, so it is with Christ. For we were all baptized by one Spirit so as to form one bodywhether Jews or Gentiles, slave or freeand we were all given the one Spirit to drink. Even so the body is not made up of one part but of many. (1 Corinthians 12:12-14) Love Your Neighbor as Yourself For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: Love your neighbor as yourself." (Galatians 5:14) Have Mercy on Your Neighbor He asked Jesus, And who is my neighbor? In reply Jesus said: A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, when he was attacked by robbers. They stripped him of his clothes, beat him and went away, leaving him half dead. A priest happened to be going down the same road, and when he saw the man, he passed by on the other side. So too, a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. But a Samaritan, as he traveled, came where the man was; and when he saw him, he took pity on him. He went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he put the man on his own donkey, brought him to an inn and took care of him. The next day he took out two denarii and gave them to the innkeeper. Look after him, he said, and when I return, I will reimburse you for any extra expense you may have. Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers? The expert in the law replied, The one who had mercy on him. Jesus told him, Go and do likewise." (Luke 10:29-37) Read more at http://www.relevantmagazine.com/god/what-bible-says-about-how-treat-refugees#kAfObf6GrzerRHbZ.99 I favor a liberal immigration policy but I also believe in vetting those who would come here. If they don't love this country or want sharia law over our constitution then I favor them finding another country with sharia law that they immigrate to. The temporary ban of travel from known terrorists hotspots makes sense until we can get better vetting of those who come here. We know some want to come here only to do harm and they need weeded out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Osiris Posted February 4, 2017 Report Share Posted February 4, 2017 1) it seems to me as if "some" muslims feel that in tje long run they'd like to see america move towards fundamental islam. Its no different than the fundamentalist christians that lament we've moved away from christian roots.... which is good we did or we'd still have shit like slavery still going 2) im not aware of how stringent or not the vetting process currently is. Without putting people on lie detector tests i find it dubious that some isis guy cant lie through his teetth to get in 3) ur idea about including muslims in the vetting process, orvatnleast using them heavily as consultants....is intriguing. It makes sense. Is it being done at all? And if you would, expect explain in detail how you, just as an example, might be able to flag a guy Regarding #1: As a multicultural and multi-religious country founded on immigration, it's absolutely ludicrous to think our government ought to move towards any particular religion as it's source of governance and jurisprudence. We can both agree on that. Regarding #2: Certainly some Isis guy could lie his through his teeth (I wouldn't mind a lie detector test to be honest. A refugee fleeing for his or her life probably wouldn't mind either). That's why the process doesn't depend solely on interviews. In fact, interviews are a very small part of it. Here is some background on the process. I think it's really important for people to understand it since the vetting issue is so widely discussed right now. http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2016/jun/13/donald-trump/wrong-donald-trump-says-theres-no-system-vet-refug/ https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/01/29/us/refugee-vetting-process.html I can certainly get on board with finding ways to improve the vetting process though the data suggests it already works very well. What I do not want to see is a vetting process that is impossible for well-meaning individuals to pass. 3) To my knowledge there is no program to use Muslim-Americans as consultants. Generally speaking, I would want to know what sort of interpretation they have regarding the faith. I would ask them to define the word 'jihad' in detail as they understand it (the best answer is "an internal struggle to improve ones self" and/or "a defensive war to defend one's own homeland"). I would ask them their thoughts on 'The People of the Book' (this refers to believers from other monotheistic religions), I would try to find their opinion on "Tafseer" (religious interpretation as extremists do not believe 'interpretation' exists they believe their is only one answer, their own answer) and "Ijtihad" (the use of one's own mental faculties to reason about legal problems). I would have long conversations with them on religious topics. In a sense, the answers won't always matter as much as if they are willing to give/take in the conversation or if they maintain simplistic and steadfast attitudes. I would ask their opinions of Sufi Muslims (Sufiism is a sect of Islam that focuses on internal and spiritual aspects, which is the opposite of what Wahabism does). I'm not a scholar or academic so I'm sure there are plenty of other things that could be asked, and better questions to ask as well. These are the things I could think of right now. No one single answer is going to identify someone, but in aggregate they may give an idea of someone's views. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieHardBrownsFan Posted February 4, 2017 Report Share Posted February 4, 2017 We are a Nation founded on Christianity. God Bless America. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clevfan4life Posted February 4, 2017 Report Share Posted February 4, 2017 Founded "by" christians, not founded ON christianity. Important distinction Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Osiris Posted February 4, 2017 Report Share Posted February 4, 2017 Founded "by" christians, not founded ON christianity. Important distinction Founded by Christians who were escaping persecution. Kinda like refugees. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westside Steve Posted February 5, 2017 Report Share Posted February 5, 2017 Well it seems to me the conflict was between the Pope and Martin Luther or any other Protestants. Not between Christians Muslims Jews Hindus... WSS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calfoxwc Posted February 5, 2017 Report Share Posted February 5, 2017 except we need to stop the persecutors from coming over here as well. It isn't working in Britian, or France, or Australia, or Sweden, or Germany... but let's not make Muslim refugees wait while we make sure. and this isn't againt your religon, victim Ossie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MLD Woody Posted February 5, 2017 Report Share Posted February 5, 2017 Sooooo.... There will be Muslims in heaven that haven't heard of Jesus Awkward Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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