Deshone Kizer's All-22 tape vs. Pit

[Adoug319]

There you go. Now we can have a real discussion about how he played.

 

[Bandwagoner]

Watching now thanks!  So far PItt pass rush is really disrupting things for Kizer.  At least the first sack was a coverage sack however he refused to throw the ball away, prolly hoping to extend a man open but that never happened.  Gots to throw it away.  But so far doesn't look like he's missing wide open guys or reads, so very encouraging, so far.

[Tim Couch Pulls Out]

Most of his sacks were coverage sacks. He was too hesitant to let it fly but also didn't want to throw it away.

 

It'll work itself out as he gets comfortable. 

[Tour2ma]

1 hour ago, Tim Couch Pulls Out said:

Most of his sacks were coverage sacks. He was too hesitant to let it fly but also didn't want to throw it away. It'll work itself out as he gets comfortable. 

Yup... you are wise beyond your years...

Excepting the two times Tretter was bulled into his lap there was really not a lot of pressure early. But the Steelers played a very disciplined pass rush keeping Kiz in a slowly tightening pocket where he constantly was dropping his eyes to the rush and was either unable to acquire alternative targets or reset to hit them... so he ate a lot of balls.

[TexasAg1969]

All in all not bad for a rookie in his first start that does not have a Zeke or a Dallas line.

[jiggins7919]

One thing to keep in mind is we received some charity in the form of a TON of penalty yards from the Steelers.  We're obviously not going to get that every week, so we'll have to pick up more first downs the traditional way.  The running game was probably the single biggest disappointment, and what killed me was we seemed to run basically the exact same running play every time.  The shotgun run with Crow, and we did very little else on the ground.  Now, I WILL say Crowell missed some giant holes about four times, and instead of using his vision, he just ran into the teeth of the defense.  Had he gone left (the open holes were ALWAYS to the left, similar to when he scored on the 2 point conversion.  Better late than never?), he could've doubled or even tripled his rushing yards.  One run in particular looked to be an easy 20 yards before contact.  The voice of the Browns, Jim Donovan, made the exact same comment, and he really lamented the fact that Crow's vision was so poor when we needed him the most.  

The tape shows what we pretty much expected.  Kizer held the ball too long, which we kind of knew he would, and it cost him.  The strange thing was that on a couple sacks he had SO much time to throw it away, that I can't help but wonder what the hell he was thinking.  And then more strangely, Kizer threw the ball away on 3rd and goal at the end of the game, and consequently missed an open receiver for a TD.  It didn't end up hurting us, but you'd really like to see the kid hit those 3rd and goal TD's when they're available.  

The other problems with holding the ball, besides losing the yardage, is that Kizer is either going to get hurt or fumble the ball.  We can't have either of those scenarios, so hopefully game 1 was a good learning opportunity, and we see a more efficient effort this weekend.  Oh, I want to say that on one of the worst sacks where Kizer ran to the sideline and had all day to throw it away, he could've made a sick play to Crow who was creeping through the line of scrimmage.  In fact, when I watched the play again, I was kind of angry at Crow.  He should've seen earlier that his QB was in trouble, and he should've raced through the line while waving his hands showing he was open.  Now USUALLY, you don't want your QB throwing back across the middle of the field, but Crow was SO open that it was semi-safe.  I'll go back and check again, but I'm pretty sure it would've been a giant play.  Crow is an excellent receiver, and I want him more involved in the passing game.  There were 4-5 times where Kizer could've immediately checked it down to Crow for 2-5 yard gains, and that doesn't sound like a lot until you factor the yards lost by sacks.

[TexasAg1969]

54 minutes ago, jiggins7919 said:

One thing to keep in mind is we received some charity in the form of a TON of penalty yards from the Steelers.  We're obviously not going to get that every week, so we'll have to pick up more first downs the traditional way.  The running game was probably the single biggest disappointment, and what killed me was we seemed to run basically the exact same running play every time.  The shotgun run with Crow, and we did very little else on the ground.  Now, I WILL say Crowell missed some giant holes about four times, and instead of using his vision, he just ran into the teeth of the defense.  Had he gone left (the open holes were ALWAYS to the left, similar to when he scored on the 2 point conversion.  Better late than never?), he could've doubled or even tripled his rushing yards.  One run in particular looked to be an easy 20 yards before contact.  The voice of the Browns, Jim Donovan, made the exact same comment, and he really lamented the fact that Crow's vision was so poor when we needed him the most.  

The tape shows what we pretty much expected.  Kizer held the ball too long, which we kind of knew he would, and it cost him.  The strange thing was that on a couple sacks he had SO much time to throw it away, that I can't help but wonder what the hell he was thinking.  And then more strangely, Kizer threw the ball away on 3rd and goal at the end of the game, and consequently missed an open receiver for a TD.  It didn't end up hurting us, but you'd really like to see the kid hit those 3rd and goal TD's when they're available.  

The other problems with holding the ball, besides losing the yardage, is that Kizer is either going to get hurt or fumble the ball.  We can't have either of those scenarios, so hopefully game 1 was a good learning opportunity, and we see a more efficient effort this weekend.  Oh, I want to say that on one of the worst sacks where Kizer ran to the sideline and had all day to throw it away, he could've made a sick play to Crow who was creeping through the line of scrimmage.  In fact, when I watched the play again, I was kind of angry at Crow.  He should've seen earlier that his QB was in trouble, and he should've raced through the line while waving his hands showing he was open.  Now USUALLY, you don't want your QB throwing back across the middle of the field, but Crow was SO open that it was semi-safe.  I'll go back and check again, but I'm pretty sure it would've been a giant play.  Crow is an excellent receiver, and I want him more involved in the passing game.  There were 4-5 times where Kizer could've immediately checked it down to Crow for 2-5 yard gains, and that doesn't sound like a lot until you factor the yards lost by sacks.

Thank you jiggins for making my argument for a "real" running back with true vision as our top target in 2018 draft. The crow runs where the hole is called for and not where it is. Sometimes with luck it's there where it's supposed to be, but when it's elsewhere he never sees it.

Edit: And did any of you watch the Jax game? It wasn't that Bortles suddenly got so much better. It was the fact that Fornette was so damn good against arguably the best defense against the run that his presence made Bortles more effective because Houston had to account for him every play,  just like people have to account for Zeke every play which makes Dak more effective. We must have a real running game if we want the kaiser to be as good as Dak. BTW same thing happened for Bradford with their rookie RB if you caught that game. Damn that kid is good so now Bradford plays all-world. As I told Tour in another thread, normally I'm the D first guy, but in this case we must get that great RB to help out the Kaiser.

Edit #2-I'd start Dayes over the Crow. Far better vision.

[jiggins7919]

14:18 mark, 3rd and goal play where Kizer tried to run it and almost got killed.  This play is important for a few reasons.  First, he put himself in harm's way when there was NO WAY he could get the first, and he took an unnecessary big hit.  A hit that could cost us any hope for a meaningful year, on a meaningless play.  Secondly, he again had a very easy check pass to the receiver in front of him who was WIDE OPEN.  If he throws it quickly, our receiver/TE (couldn't tell who it was), catches it and has to break ONE TACKLE to get the TD or first down.  How many times have we seen our guys blow a tackle like that?  Does the Steeler defender make the tackle?  Probably, but since Kizer didn't get him the ball, we'll never know.  I can safely say the receiver had an infinitely better chance of making the play than Kizer did running on a freaking 3rd and 16.   

The other play was the nice out pattern throw to Coleman for a decent gain.  I think it's around the 7 minute mark, but I could be wrong.  Anyways, Kizer makes a terrific throw, and Coleman makes the easy catch for a solid gain, but look in the middle of the field.  Check out Devalve uncovered on the post route.  Would've been a 30-45 yard gain.  

I'm not dogging Kizer, as I think the video shows he did a pretty damn good job considering...but the two plays I pointed out were VERY easy (easy is a relative term, LOL).  And Kizer can't, just CAN'T take hits like that, or we're looking at Kevin Hogan behind center, and then I'd hate the universe.  

Oh, and 18:36.  Kizer takes the sack and COMPLETELY missed the easiest check down in history for a gain of...I don't know...20?  Just look at that open space...UGH.

[Tour2ma]

Kizer's play is currently programmed. He's not processing... not in the pocket anyway. That may yet come... or not.

Meanwhile we (Hue) need to get him moving... some designed rolls and PAP Bootlegs, if we get a run game going. When he moves, he scans. Then we have to hope future opponents are not as disciplined with their pass rush as PTG was so Kizer can bail and get on the move himself.

 

Accuracy-wise... time with his receivers hopefully is enough to reduce his acquisition time. Right now he is only reliably accurate if he has locked onto his target long enough to gauge their speed and path.

 

No one said it'd be easy... or fast...

[The Gipper]

3 hours ago, TexasAg1969 said:

All in all not bad for a rookie in his first start that does not have a Zeke or a Dallas line.

Well, I think the Browns OL will be one of the best in the game.

But what Kizer has to learn to do...that he did not do....is to learn to use his version of Zeke......Duke Johnson.   I suggest...and by the way, so did Hue Jackson and so did DeShon Kizer, that Kizer did not know to go to his checkdown receiver. 3-4 of those sacks could have been avoided if he had thought about doing the checkdown.   You don't want to go crazy using the checkdown (a la Kessler)...but it is a very viable option on a number of plays.

After all....the point of the Forward Pass in football is to get the ball into the hands of your pass catchers, not to keep it in your own hands.

[TexasAg1969]

5 minutes ago, The Gipper said:

Well, I think the Browns OL will be one of the best in the game.

But what Kizer has to learn to do...that he did not do....is to learn to use his version of Zeke......Duke Johnson.   I suggest...and by the way, so did Hue Jackson and so did DeShon Kizer, that Kizer did not know to go to his checkdown receiver. 3-4 of those sacks could have been avoided if he had thought about doing the checkdown.   You don't want to go crazy using the checkdown (a la Kessler)...but it is a very viable option on a number of plays.

After all....the point of the Forward Pass in football is to get the ball into the hands of your pass catchers, not to keep it in your own hands.

No argument there.

[Tour2ma]

Before you can use you have to find.

[The Gipper]

4 minutes ago, Tour2ma said:

Before you can use you have to find.

Before you find you have to look.

[LondonBrown]

Some more analysis here

http://theundefeated.com/features/foxworth-all-22-nfl-week-1-impressed-with-cleveland-browns-rookie-qb-deshone-kizer/

[Tour2ma]

3 minutes ago, LondonBrown said:

Some more analysis here

http://theundefeated.com/features/foxworth-all-22-nfl-week-1-impressed-with-cleveland-browns-rookie-qb-deshone-kizer/

Saw that over at reddit...

Still not seeing many of his takes, but as I am going back through the game tape I am seeing more "looking around" than I remember from the live viewing. However, Kizer appears to be looking for clearly open targets vs. reading what the D is giving... or about to give. So a form of "going thru progressions" is occurring, but it's foundational at best.

Other disturbing trend emerging is the amount of time Kizer needs his eyes on his target to make an accurate throw. More time with his #1's hopefully shortens this and should be the first "improvement" in the queue.

[tiamat63]

18 minutes ago, Tour2ma said:

Saw that over at reddit...

Still not seeing many of his takes, but as I am going back through the game tape I am seeing more "looking around" than I remember from the live viewing. However, Kizer appears to be looking for clearly open targets vs. reading what the D is giving... or about to give. So a form of "going thru progressions" is occurring, but it's foundational at best.

Other disturbing trend emerging is the amount of time Kizer needs his eyes on his target to make an accurate throw. More time with his #1's hopefully shortens this and should be the first "improvement" in the queue.

 

Like I mentioned in the other thread @ 2:30 was a point for me where I saw a young QB check a safety and anticipate his receiver squaring off his route with (pretty damn sure it's) Njoku.  

[jiggins7919]

It's funny, we appear to have the opposite of Kessler.  I was just thinking, "Well, if he just threw it to the check down guy right away, we would've gotten 8 yards instead of the sack!"  And that might be true, but how many TOUCHDOWNS would we lose out on?  I guess it's kind of a tricky balance to achieve, and not one likely to be figured out in a rookie season.  The GOOD news is that Kizer definitely looks down the field, and by doing so, gives us the CHANCE to make a big play.  That sounds good to me.  

[Tour2ma]

34 minutes ago, tiamat63 said:

Like I mentioned in the other thread @ 2:30 was a point for me where I saw a young QB check a safety and anticipate his receiver squaring off his route with (pretty damn sure it's) Njoku.  

First for me was him checking to see that Haden had left the short zone following Britt before throwing that out to Njoku on 3rd and long.

Time for me to crank up the camera for some photos of what I'm seeing...

20 minutes ago, jiggins7919 said:

It's funny, we appear to have the opposite of Kessler.  I was just thinking, "Well, if he just threw it to the check down guy right away, we would've gotten 8 yards instead of the sack!"  And that might be true, but how many TOUCHDOWNS would we lose out on?  I guess it's kind of a tricky balance to achieve, and not one likely to be figured out in a rookie season.  The GOOD news is that Kizer definitely looks down the field, and by doing so, gives us the CHANCE to make a big play.  That sounds good to me.  

Yup... I always felt that Kess saw the deeper stuff, but just turned it down... quickly. That;'s teh conservative play that got him benched last year and dropped to 3rd string this year.

Kizer's conservatism is a different animal. He'll stay with his deep primary and then err on the side of eating the ball rather than make a 2ndary misread.