It's confirmed ... Sashi Sucked

[Tour2ma]

4 hours ago, Westside Steve said:

So is it your opinion that we would be better off today with a draft coming up in a few days with Sashi and Depodesta and their handful of nameless faceless underlings than we are today with Dorsey and his people? 

Why would that be if it's true?

Ask me again in a week, Steve... and again in a year. Right now, based upon the dealing to date, I think it's a push.

But I will say why I think Sashi & DePo & Co. could be better... because their consensus process was meant to be risk adverse.

[Mike H]

41 minutes ago, Tour2ma said:

Ask me again in a week, Steve... and again in a year. Right now, based upon the dealing to date, I think it's a push.

But I will say why I think Sashi & DePo & Co. could be better... because their consensus process was meant to be risk adverse.

Sashi did a lot of positive things for the Browns. The way he approached everything was all about building value and flexibility, but he isn't an evaluator and wasn't able to satisfy organizational goals of doing so while also keeping the team competitive. Haslam's idiotic involvement and empowering Jackson didn't help. There was a natural divide b/t "football minds" and more objective viewers who have to think on a macro level--Hue Jackson and most coaches are micro guys. Jackson may have undermined Sashi as well, but I can't prove that.

That said, this "agent study" was subjectively based on a general perception that likely involved some sour grapes from agents who were unable to scalp the Browns and make their guys rich. I'm sure Rosenhaus was a strong voice in the study [his response itself and influence on his peers].

Sashi did a decent job but probably should have never been in the position he was given. He could have succeeded and added important value as a member, not a leader, of a front office team, though.

Dorsey and the guys he has brought in should do a good job executing the plan Sashi developed, and the team should win more games than it has in the last couple seasons. I like the idea of building slowly, and being bad for one season is palatable, but 1-31 is unacceptable. Jackson should also be gone, but that's a convo for another day.

[dawg2fan]

7 hours ago, Westside Steve said:

PS Carson Wentz is only Carson Wentz because he was on a team good enough to win a Superbowl with a journeyman. And Watson would have been laying in a room at the University Hospital instead of SMU.

WSS

Westside, I couldn't have said this any better.  Wentz went to one of the best teams in the NFL and he wasn't even there for the SB.  And Goff at the Rams is also better than the Browns.  This team will be turned around and all the nay sayers will either shut their mouths, or wake up and truly support the team.

[DieHardBrownsFan]

Sashi sucked butt.  Shmuck him.

[Westside Steve]

1 hour ago, Tour2ma said:

Ask me again in a week, Steve... and again in a year. Right now, based upon the dealing to date, I think it's a push.

But I will say why I think Sashi & DePo & Co. could be better... because their consensus process was meant to be risk adverse.

Fair enough. I'm going to assume that there's more weight on the parcel of picks they accumulated than the free agents they signed or players  they drafted or cut because we won't know for a year. At least?

Do you think the team was meant to go 0 and 16 last season or was that just bad luck? Meaning they expected to suck maybe 2 and 14 but were caught off guard as to how bad it actually was?

WSS

[Mike H]

33 minutes ago, Westside Steve said:

Fair enough. I'm going to assume that there's more weight on the parcel of picks they accumulated than the free agents they signed or players  they drafted or cut because we won't know for a year. At least?

Do you think the team was meant to go 0 and 16 last season or was that just bad luck? Meaning they expected to suck maybe 2 and 14 but were caught off guard as to how bad it actually was?

WSS

You didn't ask me but I don't think anyone anticipated Kizer being as bad as he was... anyone inside the Browns' org at least. Joe T getting hurt wasn't really planned for either, since it had literally never happened before. Lots of variables, but I do think the team knew it was going to be terrible and team lockerroom leadership didn't do much to inspire the troops.

[Bob806]

1 hour ago, Westside Steve said:

Fair enough. I'm going to assume that there's more weight on the parcel of picks they accumulated than the free agents they signed or players  they drafted or cut because we won't know for a year. At least?

 

WSS

Right there is correct. It's a near slam-dunk a QB will be drafted and sit. Basically, the fan base is being asked to be patient yet again because the so-called franchise QB won't play. It buys time for Hue and his staff.

Unless they appear unprepared, uninspired. For the most part, the 0-16 season the Browns played hard, except vs Cincy at home. 

Not our team, but let's see how McCarron plays in Buffalo. If the Bills exceed the 9-7 record Tyrod posted, then sashi was wrong about McCarron. I thank Sashi for not making that trade, it was way too much.

[hoorta]

3 hours ago, Mike H said:

You didn't ask me but I don't think anyone anticipated Kizer being as bad as he was... anyone inside the Browns' org at least. Joe T getting hurt wasn't really planned for either, since it had literally never happened before. Lots of variables, but I do think the team knew it was going to be terrible and team lockerroom leadership didn't do much to inspire the troops.

I sure did Mike...   Anyone who bothered to watch his games at ND could have seen it a mile away...  Stinkus Maximus...  

[The Gipper]

8 hours ago, Ghoolie said:

In SEWAGE YOU TRUSTED................... IN HOLMGREN YOU TRUSTED.....................WINNING IS OUR POLICY...........................IN SASHI WE TRUST.................IN DORSEY WE TRUST.....

I trust that at some point, you jackoffs are going to see what's going on here. Try this one.......................

 

 "WE'RE A BUNCH OF FAHKING IDIOTS"

We didn't necessarily trust them. We just had no freaking choice but to try to do so because those are the guys in charge and we had not one goddamn thing to say about it.

[Mike H]

1 hour ago, hoorta said:

I sure did Mike...   Anyone who bothered to watch his games at ND could have seen it a mile away...  Stinkus Maximus...  

Hence the caveat... "anyone inside the Browns' org."

I know there are far smarter people here

[LondonBrown]

On 21/04/2018 at 4:33 AM, Bigalow80 said:

Weird, a bunch of agents called a GM who was knowingly tanking, getting rid of overpaid veterans, purposely sabotaging terrible trades by a head coach, and accurately assessing what his free agents values were, didn't like Sashi Brown...NO WAY?! Sashi told the world what he was going to gut the roster, gain as many draft picks as possible and in 3 years make a big push for veterans, but Jimmy fast fingers couldn't handle the heat and canned him after 2 years. Dorsey is going to get all of the credit for this turn around but Sashi never had a chance. I like the Dorsey hire and believe Dorsey is the right man running this team but I was hoping there could have been a mutual partnership and Sashi was not let go. Sashi deserves more credit than he gets. 

This is a smart post

[Tour2ma]

15 hours ago, Mike H said:

Sashi did a lot of positive things for the Browns. The way he approached everything was all about building value and flexibility, but he isn't an evaluator and wasn't able to satisfy organizational goals of doing so while also keeping the team competitive. Haslam's idiotic involvement and empowering Jackson didn't help. There was a natural divide b/t "football minds" and more objective viewers who have to think on a macro level--Hue Jackson and most coaches are micro guys. Jackson may have undermined Sashi as well, but I can't prove that.

I wrote about the process ad nauseum here and Sashi's unique role among GMs. It was a bold experiment in developing an FO in parallel with "the team". Developing an FO that was not dependent upon any one "guy". An experiment that Jimmah simply lacked the fortitude to see thru to the end. Sashi, in the GM role, was the key. I suspect Jackson was in Jimmah's ear looking out for #1, but it was when "consultant" Dorsey got in Jimmah's other ear that Sashi's end was inevitable.

[Westside Steve]

14 hours ago, Mike H said:

You didn't ask me but I don't think anyone anticipated Kizer being as bad as he was... anyone inside the Browns' org at least. Joe T getting hurt wasn't really planned for either, since it had literally never happened before. Lots of variables, but I do think the team knew it was going to be terrible and team lockerroom leadership didn't do much to inspire the troops.

Your take is always interesting Mike. I didn't want him in the first place but I can't imagine how any rookie would be successful thrown into the fire with the worst team in the league.

As far as the draft I'm less impressed by Myles Garrett than I think I should be. Benefit of the doubt that could change. I kind of like David Njoku who seems like a value pick and the book is still out on peppers. Kizer even though he was mishandled looks like a strike out. If the idea was to sabotage him and the team to rise in the draft order then I guess cutting Josh McCown was a good idea. Not, however, if at least be competitive last year was a goal.

WSS

[TexasAg1969]

7 minutes ago, Tour2ma said:

I wrote about the process ad nauseum here and Sashi's unique role among GMs. It was a bold experiment in developing an FO in parallel with "the team". Developing an FO that was not dependent upon any one "guy". An experiment that Jimmah simply lacked the fortitude to see thru to the end. Sashi, in the GM role, was the key. I suspect Jackson was in Jimmah's ear looking out for #1, but it was when "consultant" Dorsey got in Jimmah's other ear that Sashi's end was inevitable.

Never underestimate the power of the intentional/unintentional screwup of the McCarron deal. That would be a major part of Hue in one ear for sure.

[TexasAg1969]

6 minutes ago, Westside Steve said:

Your take is always interesting Mike. I didn't want him in the first place but I can't imagine how any rookie would be successful thrown into the fire with the worst team in the league.

As far as the draft I'm less impressed by Myles Garrett than I think I should be. Benefit of the doubt that could change. I kind of like David Njoku who seems like a value pick and the book is still out on peppers. Kizer even though he was mishandled looks like a strike out. If the idea was to sabotage him and the team to rise and the draft order then I guess cutting Josh McCown was a good idea. Not, however, if at least be competitive last year was a goal.

WSS

Steve I think all 3 will look less like rookies and more like second year players now that Garrett is 100%, hopefully Ogbah is too, Njoku has a true slot player to team up with now and Peppers switches to his real position of SS now that Randal has been added to go to his real position of FS. Add a great CB or two and we are ready to R&R.

EDIT: I am really torn between Chubb and Fitzpatrick @ #4. Either would be a great addition to this team. If Ogbah is back to form I'd go Fitzpatrick as a CB.

[Dutch Oven]

I know that passing on Carson Wentz and ending up with Corey Coleman is the gift that keeps on giving, and for that, thank you Sashi, thank you. 

[Tour2ma]

23 hours ago, Westside Steve said:

PS Carson Wentz is only Carson Wentz because he was on a team good enough to win a Superbowl with a journeyman. And Watson would have been laying in a room at the University Hospital instead of SMU.

How dare you question the God-like status of Wentz and Watson. Blasphemer!

14 hours ago, Westside Steve said:

Fair enough. I'm going to assume that there's more weight on the parcel of picks they accumulated than the free agents they signed or players  they drafted or cut because we won't know for a year. At least?

No... it's what Dorsey does starting Thursday and how what he did there and in FA looks alongside Sashi & Co.'s work

14 hours ago, Westside Steve said:

Do you think the team was meant to go 0 and 16 last season or was that just bad luck? Meaning they expected to suck maybe 2 and 14 but were caught off guard as to how bad it actually was?

14 hours ago, Mike H said:

You didn't ask me but I don't think anyone anticipated Kizer being as bad as he was... anyone inside the Browns' org at least. Joe T getting hurt wasn't really planned for either, since it had literally never happened before. Lots of variables, but I do think the team knew it was going to be terrible and team lockerroom leadership didn't do much to inspire the troops.

I think everyone expected the team to be better in 2017. I still think the key failure, the primary reason it was not better lies with Kessler, not Kizer. Remember... Kess was handed the starting job going into Camp and lost it. We were depending on him to be good enough to keep the rookie on the sideline at least for a while. No proof, but going into FA, I suspect Hue told the FO that he could win with Kess while Kizer learned.

Of course we were also depending on Hue to develop both QBs... while acting as HC and coordinating the Offense. What could go wrong?

9 hours ago, Mike H said:

I know there are far smarter people here

Are you sure you are not going into politics?

 

 

[TexasAg1969]

2 minutes ago, Tour2ma said:

Of course we were also depending on Hue to develop both QBs... while acting as HC and coordinating the Offense. What could go wrong?

Indeed!

[Westside Steve]

I find it hard to blame project QB Kessler just because somebody other than Kessler decided to can Josh McCown, a journeyman but at least someone who could have held the reins until Kizer learned to ride. 

I don't blame anybody for the Coleman pic because no amount of raid will keep away the injury bug if it wants to bite.

WSS

[Tour2ma]

20 minutes ago, Westside Steve said:

I find it hard to blame project QB Kessler just because somebody other than Kessler decided to can Josh McCown, a journeyman but at least someone who could have held the reins until Kizer learned to ride. 

I don't blame anybody for the Coleman pic because no amount of raid will keep away the injury bug if it wants to bite.

Someone banned McCown? McC was simply told that he wasn't going to start for us in 2017. While I'm sure that was consistent with the FO's wishes, ultimately that's a coach's decision. Then came the offer to be the QB Coach, which McC declined.

I blamed Kessler? I blamed Hue for believing Kessler could be a functional QB1.

 

[Westside Steve]

13 minutes ago, Tour2ma said:

Someone banned McCown? McC was simply told that he wasn't going to start for us in 2017. While I'm sure that was consistent with the FO's wishes, ultimately that's a coach's decision. Then came the offer to be the QB Coach, which McC declined.

I blamed Kessler? I blamed Hue for believing Kessler could be a functional QB1.

 

You said the primary fault lies with Kesler not Kizer. 

Not sure what you mean by banned.

He was cut, right? 

WSS

[Zombo]

6 minutes ago, Westside Steve said:

You said the primary fault lies with Kesler not Kizer. 

Not sure what you mean by banned.

He was cut, right? 

WSS

He was released.

Kessler was named the starter. Then he blew and Osweisler was named the starter. Then he blew and Kizer was named the starter. Then he blew and Hogan was named the starter. Then he blew and Kizer was named the starter. Then he blew some more.

Zombo

[Westside Steve]

27 minutes ago, Zombo said:

He was released.

Kessler was named the starter. Then he blew and Osweisler was named the starter. Then he blew and Kizer was named the starter. Then he blew and Hogan was named the starter. Then he blew and Kizer was named the starter. Then he blew some more.

Zombo

And Josh McCown won more games than the rest of them combined in 2017. That's my point.

WSS

[Zombo]

17 minutes ago, Westside Steve said:

And Josh McCown won more games than the rest of them combined in 2017. That's my point.

WSS

Yes, he did.

He is better than all of them, no argument there.

He was also 1-10 in Cleveland and 38 years old, so you can't blame them for taking a shot on someone else that year. Gotta keep taking shots until you find your guy.

With Taylor and the #1 pick, we should be light years ahead of any recent QB rooms from the get go.

Zombo

[Westside Steve]

41 minutes ago, Zombo said:

Yes, he did.

He is better than all of them, no argument there.

He was also 1-10 in Cleveland and 38 years old, so you can't blame them for taking a shot on someone else that year. Gotta keep taking shots until you find your guy.

With Taylor and the #1 pick, we should be light years ahead of any recent QB rooms from the get go.

Zombo

Again we're talking about 2017. By the way in 2017 1 + 10 looks pretty good in hindsight.

5 + 11 looks even better.

Of course at 5 and 11 we wouldn't have the number one pick.

WSS

[Mike H]

I don’t see the point in having kept McCown to increase wins by one or two. Failure is failure. The team was a failure from its GM to its HC to its QB, and Josh, as good as he can be, wasn’t going to win more than 1 or 2 games, either.

[Westside Steve]

23 minutes ago, Mike H said:

I don’t see the point in having kept McCown to increase wins by one or two. Failure is failure. The team was a failure from its GM to its HC to its QB, and Josh, as good as he can be, wasn’t going to win more than 1 or 2 games, either.

That's not really the point I'm trying to make. Just drawing the distinction of two plans of action for 2017. Aim for a modicum of respectability mentor Deshone Kizer or just tank the season for the number one pick. 

No matter what the plan was the second scenario is what we got. Now it's time to do what we need to do going forward. That's it.

WSS

[Mike H]

1 hour ago, Westside Steve said:

That's not really the point I'm trying to make. Just drawing the distinction of two plans of action for 2017. Aim for a modicum of respectability mentor Deshone Kizer or just tank the season for the number one pick. 

No matter what the plan was the second scenario is what we got. Now it's time to do what we need to do going forward. That's it.

WSS

I think probably the idea that Hue Jackson would be all Kizer needed was relied on too heavily when weighing whether to retain McCown.

[Zombo]

2 hours ago, Westside Steve said:

Again we're talking about 2017. By the way in 2017 1 + 10 looks pretty good in hindsight.

5 + 11 looks even better.

Of course at 5 and 11 we wouldn't have the number one pick.

WSS

Ya, I know we are talking about 2017, and I am a fan of McCown ... but I understand the process that led them to release him.

They figured they were going to take another shot at QB in the draft. And they had Kessler from the 3rd round the year before who had started half the season. So they let the 38 yo oft-injured McCown go and took a stab at Brock Osweiler (netting a second rounder in the meantime) to come in and be the "veteran" while the rookie got his feet wet. It didn't work out, because Oz was awful. And Kess was awful. And then the rookie turned out to be awful. Not good personnel decisions ... but they were taking a shot. I think the real criticism lies in who they drafted, and when they drafted him, and who they passed up in the draft ... not that they might have won three games with McCown and still be in the same boat this year anyway.

Zombo

[Westside Steve]

28 minutes ago, Mike H said:

I think probably the idea that Hue Jackson would be all Kizer needed was relied on too heavily when weighing whether to retain McCown.

Oops.

🤡

WSS