Just Remember WHAT QBs Won in Cleveland:

[Flugel]

The reason I think Quinn will be the RIGHT choice for us is because of our franchise history. Kosar NEVER had a cannon BUT he could drill an accurate pass where it needed to be. Consequently, he competed in THREE AFC Championships after he led his college team to a National Championship against all odds. Every time Kosar LOST in a Championship Game - the weather here and in Denver wasn't conducive to the 50 yard bomb so you never SAW it from him or Elway. That said, the TYPE of QB Kosar lost to was a guy with a brain large enough for a Stanford Education equipped with the vision & athleticism for emergency improvisations. That's ALL Elway did on the drive was pull plays out of his dumpster. If he wasn't accurate, smart or poised - he does what DA did in Cincy and makes the fatal mistake.

 

NEXT, Brian Sipe is a guy that wasn't supposed to make 1 single NFL franchise while Mike Phipps was deemed the QB with the arm ANY NFL offense should go vertical game with. GREAT concept but the midwest has a phenomenon we call WEATHER and Lake Erie brings the wind chills under zero, the mudd, ice and slippery footballs. As a result Sipe was a 13th round QB that won the HEARTS of his teammates and fans to bring us our most exciting football in the form of the Cardiac Kids. One more time, the TYPE of QB that got the victory over us here in the post season that year was ANOTHER guy with a Stanford mind. There was NO such thing as passes deeper than 25 yards on a day the winds were swirling so ferociously off lake Erie that the thermometer was reading 36 degrees below zero. Jim Plunkett would go on to WIN a Superbowl for the RIGHT Head Coach AFTER he was deemed an epic bust playing in the wrong environment. Did Peyton Manning ever look better on a New England January day?

 

Before that, was a former Northwestern RB Cleveland fans came to know and appreciate as Otto Graham. NOBODY really knew if there was a cannon ready to launch 50 yard bombs in a new position at a more complex level. What they did understand was there was a SMART intelligent kid from the midwest that was well known for BIG plays in less than admirable weather conditions. Joe Montana BEFORE Joe Montana if you will. No fastballs required. Cleveland participated in 10 straight Pro Football Championship Title Games from 1946 through 1955. The Boston Celtics of Pro Football and Otto Graham was our Bill Russell impact. Russell wasn't as pretty as OTHER guys but he had the RIGHT stuff as did Graham. This TYPE of special is UNIQUE because I spend MORE time appreciatiing how this person exceeded the expectations so consistently because they didn't have ONE feature everyone else deemed so necessary. Did Wilt Chamberlain EVER beat Russell? Go figure!

 

For similarity purposes, Joe Montana had alot of the SAME questions surrounding his verticality and arm strength as Quinn has to listen to. Since they both dramaticaly changed winning percentages in South Bend's region of the Midwest - he's worth mentioning. Charlie Weis would remind those in question that there's Notre Dame with Quinn and Notre Dame SINCE Quinn left campus. The moral of that story is if you want to WIN you can only choose QUINN.

 

Shep's written some compelling stuff in that thread about what Mangini wants in the huddle and leading the offense; and Zombo added an excellent 7 minute video showcasing what Quinn CAN do when he has the RIGHT coach. The sad truth is if a guy like Joe Montana ever had to go play for a Head Coach like RAC - the Hall of Fame ending would have taken a back seat to ARM Strength. Arm strength has nothing to do with improvising under pressure, making the right reads and showcasing the right stuff where it wins over teammates.

 

If you remember Sipe, Kosar and Graham, you remember the poise, confidence and smarts to come back and erase deficits for victories. You also remember the consistent precision that made the best winning percentages in team history possible. When Sipe averaged over 4000 yards passing in 3 consecutive seasons it was back in an era BEFORE they handcuffed DBs on the touchy feely. I firmly believe IF DA possessed any of these qualities, I wouldn't have seen 4 INTs in Cincy on a day his backers would excuse it all to WEATHER. Strong arm meant what? So much for possessing the brainpower, confidence and accuracy to complete the underneathe stuff given to him. That will bury post season hopes as it buried our's. What was the difference between THAT game and DA's coming out party? WEATHER, time of year and enough validated film on how to frustrate an inaccurate QB.

 

History tells me I've seen enough of the Derek Anderson story to know how it ends. Getting excited about the sequel seems about as uplifting as re-watching the Old Yeller movie. We just added the right young DAWG from the right pedigree. Who brings home a dawg and refuses to potty train it? RAC on crack - that's who. Those days are over. I welcome the Quinn era as a more intelligent face on the franchise. If you made it this far, thanks for reading!!!

- Tom F.

[daddybull1]

Flugs, it wasn't strong arm passes that turned into interceptions in that fateful game in Cinncy, they were touch passes with winds gusting up to 60mph... The idiot who called those plays time & time again was fired.. He tried the same crap in the Buffalo game but Dawsons leg bailed him out....

 

The comparisson you make concerning former successful Browns QB's brings back a lot of memories... However, they all had a few things in common---a powerful running game along with a dominent defense comes to mind....

 

As far as RAC is concerned, even a brilliant football mind like yours could not have won here in Cleveland given all the circumstances that unfolded... RAC was the head coach and head coaches get fired if the team doesn't win, thats the way it is and I'll just leave it at that........

 

peace

 

T.Dawg

[OconRecon]

...the weather here and in Denver wasn't conducive to the 50 yard bomb so you never SAW it from him or Elway...

 

Reference: Quinn Sparks Wild Comeback at Michigan State.

 

5 TD passes when "it was wet and wild, choppy and sloppy". QB rating was 120, but most importantly he was the leader. The rain was so bad my brother (ND grad) left in the third quarter due to the driving rain. The conditions were just not condusive for an offense to make a comeback.

[Gips]

Flugs, it wasn't strong arm passes that turned into interceptions in that fateful game in Cinncy, they were touch passes with winds gusting up to 60mph... The idiot who called those plays time & time again was fired.. He tried the same crap in the Buffalo game but Dawsons leg bailed him out....

 

The comparisson you make concerning former successful Browns QB's brings back a lot of memories... However, they all had a few things in common---a powerful running game along with a dominent defense comes to mind....

 

As far as RAC is concerned, even a brilliant football mind like yours could not have won here in Cleveland given all the circumstances that unfolded... RAC was the head coach and head coaches get fired if the team doesn't win, thats the way it is and I'll just leave it at that........

 

peace

 

T.Dawg

Da unfortunately has a very slow ,obvious and unconvincing handoff what else is an OC gonna do with a guy that has nothing but an arm?

Granted DA was poorly coached under the phatz regime with rip scherer as the qb coach i cant believe that they allowed any qb on the field with a serious stare down problem and bq was in the process of developing the stare down as well...

 

I keep hearing mangini saying DA is working hard but i hear him say nothing of DA actually improving..if DA is coachable and could dump his bad habits he could be a great qb...ive always thought he is coachable but who knows...many dont think he is...

[Flugel]

Flugs, it wasn't strong arm passes that turned into interceptions in that fateful game in Cinncy, they were touch passes with winds gusting up to 60mph... The idiot who called those plays time & time again was fired.. He tried the same crap in the Buffalo game but Dawsons leg bailed him out....

 

The comparisson you make concerning former successful Browns QB's brings back a lot of memories... However, they all had a few things in common---a powerful running game along with a dominent defense comes to mind....

 

As far as RAC is concerned, even a brilliant football mind like yours could not have won here in Cleveland given all the circumstances that unfolded... RAC was the head coach and head coaches get fired if the team doesn't win, thats the way it is and I'll just leave it at that........

 

peace

 

T.Dawg

 

 

Thanks T.Dawg! Some excellent points made; BUT on a day when our running game and oline has their way with Cincy's front 7 - I NEEDED to get more SMARTS out of DA than I saw. It's EASY to blame the play calls when the execution is miserable but EVERY time we ran the ball that day - the playcalling looked SMART. You STILL have to mix in the pass or you get predictable enough to stop. This is where our team needs the RIGHT leader with the know-how to improvise IF necessary. IF DA was the right guy - we would NOT have had 5 scoreless occurences from the Cincy 29 yard line on in. As bad as our D was in 2007, Bodden had an INT where we started one scoreless drive on the Cincy 29. Players lining up wrong and the offense looking in disarray with formations is just as much on the QB as Mangini has recently spoken about.

 

Would a guy like Kosar or Elway have felt so helpless on a day we were running the ball beyond 130 yards on the ground? DA kept cutting drives short with piss poor decisions.

 

Once everybody in this league realized DA has certain areas of the field where his accuracy evaporates into dismal, guess what areas they GAVE him time after time? Trends can tell us a lot if we LET them. Trust me when I tell you I'd love to blame 100% of DA's problems on the coach exclusively or the playcalling because it's an easy fix. DA ended up looking like the same QB he looked like under Mo Carthon with Chud. Once teams found his weakness, I didn't see an ounce of progress while our oline included 2 guys that have made more than one Pro Bowl (Thomas & Steinbach).

 

Lewis ran for 1300 yards in 2007 BUT he's never been a receiving threat out of the backfield coupled with the reality that DA sucks in throwing the swing passes to one side of the field and isn't much better throwing to the other side of the field short range. Then we always seem to migrate back to the same thing - throwing the lasers down centerfield where a well studied defense can add a body or 2 to the area. I think our receiving corps has been about as battered and beaten up the last 3 years as I've ever seen it. Winslow was NEVER healthy enough to practice. JJ was never healthy. Edwards developed alligator arms from the extra hits. Stallworth was his usual disappointment to the team overlooking football passion for perceived talent. Even Steve Heiden got injured. I'm thinking a BIG part of the disabilities caused is from our receivers being asked to fetch passes in the ONLY places DA is comfortable throwing his best passes - right into centerfield traffic where there's usually an extra hit or 2 or 3. It's just as important to spread teams out horizontally as it is vertically so we need an accurate guy in ALL weather conditions like we've had. THEN watch the running game get better as defenses are forced to bring people out of the box.

- Tom F.

[Drunkandstoopid]

While you're giving Quinn ALL the credit for Notre Dame's success his before he left, try to remember that a lot of talent left with him. 3 players drafted in '06, 7 in '07, 4 in '08... now just one last year. His last couple of years he played WITH a pretty talented team, at the college level, that seems to be on a downward "trend" (I know some people here like using that word) these days. Charlie has either done a poor job of evaluating or developing talent lately.

 

Quinn could be quite a player, but he was surrounded by some pretty good players at that level and can't get all the credit for the success that has since evaporated.

[Flugel]

While you're giving Quinn ALL the credit for Notre Dame's success his before he left, try to remember that a lot of talent left with him. 3 players drafted in '06, 7 in '07, 4 in '08... now just one last year. His last couple of years he played WITH a pretty talented team, at the college level, that seems to be on a downward "trend" (I know some people here like using that word) these days. Charlie has either done a poor job of evaluating or developing talent lately.

 

Quinn could be quite a player, but he was surrounded by some pretty good players at that level and can't get all the credit for the success that has since evaporated.

 

I think of Notre Dame AFTER Quinn much like I think of Syracuse AFTER McNabb - the winning ended abruptly. If you need to think ALL the talent headed for the gates as fast as Quinn graduated - then I hope it helps you sleep better. Not much I can say that the DA fans will accept in this debate. Let's just understand that DA has had 3 years worth of starting opportunities and each of the 3 seasons of this ended with him regressing instead of progressing. If you'd like, we can all blame the popcorn vendors for yelling too loud or Mother Nature for being on the rag when we gotta go clinch a playoff spot in Cincy. Whatever rationalization we can dream up won't change the reason or the rationale behind why Quinn was necessary in the first place. In fact, it only makes Quinn more necessary than ever.

 

In any event, NONE of Quinn's college WRs are starting in the NFL inspite of how talented you claim they were. Jeff Smardizja chose baseball because he felt he had a better chance to succeed in that sport. His undrafted tailback Darius Walker isn't exactly surfacing as anyone's workhorse but I'm all ears on hearing the creative excuses why that hasn't happened. Last I knew he was trying to keep the Houston Texans interested in keeping an active spot on their roster before they added Steve Slaton, Ryan Moats, Chris Brown and Chris Taylor. I'm guessing that wasn't good news but happy there's always Canada for a kid like that. TE Anthony Fasano seems like the only playmaker of Quinn's bunch getting regular action on Sundays after being Jason Witten's backup for a while. BEFORE you mention Ryan Grant - just remember he was an undrafted FA in 2005, which means his final season at Notre Dame was 2004 when Quinn was a soph. That would mean Quinn had LESS talent at RB to work with as a junior and senior so I can't help but appreciate =the ability to make those around him better.

 

Outside of Justin Tuck, I'm not seeing all the superstars Quinn allegedly teamed up with during their BCS appearances. As for McNabb, his teammates included Marvin Harrison, Kevin Johnson, Roland Williams, Dwight Freeney, Keith Bulluck, Donovan Darius, Will Allen, Marlon Greenwood just to name a few guys that started for a minimum of 3 years at the next level. Some of those guys even made Pro Bowls and Superbowls. I'm sure when McNabb left and nobody else could fill his void - it impacted the recruiting process in Central NY. That said, Rob McPherson and Marvin Graves created enough of a winning tradition to get a kid like McNabb excited enough to follow in their footsteps. The inability to FIND the next kid like that has thrown Syracuse off the college football map. Things won't be much different at Notre Dame if they don't improve over the last 2 seasons.

 

If Notre Dame has truely continued to have tons of talent - Quinn must have had something special to be the ONLY kid capable of winning consistently enough for BCS consideration with it. That's what the SPECIAL QBs do - they elevate everyone's game so the team wins consistently.

- Tom F.

[samoth]

One other thing to consider when we talk about Browns QBs who could win, such as Graham, Ryan, Plum, Sipe, and Kosar - they all had big time intelligent coaches working with them in Brown, Collier, Rutigliano and Schottenheimer. Tim Couch could have been the next big thing but he was not only saddled with one of the worst teams in league history, but also with some of the worst coaching (Palmer, Davis). I'm excited to see what Quinn/DA/whoever can do with a real, big time coach, instead of the also-rans and coordinators we've had picking their noses on the sidelines for the last ten years.

[Drunkandstoopid]

I think of Notre Dame AFTER Quinn much like I think of Syracuse AFTER McNabb - the winning ended abruptly. If you need to think ALL the talent headed for the gates as fast as Quinn graduated - then I hope it helps you sleep better. Not much I can say that the DA fans will accept in this debate. Let's just understand that DA has had 3 years worth of starting opportunities and each of the 3 seasons of this ended with him regressing instead of progressing. If you'd like, we can all blame the popcorn vendors for yelling too loud or Mother Nature for being on the rag when we gotta go clinch a playoff spot in Cincy. Whatever rationalization we can dream up won't change the reason or the rationale behind why Quinn was necessary in the first place. In fact, it only makes Quinn more necessary than ever.

 

In any event, NONE of Quinn's college WRs are starting in the NFL inspite of how talented you claim they were. Jeff Smardizja chose baseball because he felt he had a better chance to succeed in that sport. His undrafted tailback Darius Walker isn't exactly surfacing as anyone's workhorse but I'm all ears on hearing the creative excuses why that hasn't happened. Last I knew he was trying to keep the Houston Texans interested in keeping an active spot on their roster before they added Steve Slaton, Ryan Moats, Chris Brown and Chris Taylor. I'm guessing that wasn't good news but happy there's always Canada for a kid like that. TE Anthony Fasano seems like the only playmaker of Quinn's bunch getting regular action on Sundays after being Jason Witten's backup for a while. BEFORE you mention Ryan Grant - just remember he was an undrafted FA in 2005, which means his final season at Notre Dame was 2004 when Quinn was a soph. That would mean Quinn had LESS talent at RB to work with as a junior and senior so I can't help but appreciate =the ability to make those around him better.

 

Outside of Justin Tuck, I'm not seeing all the superstars Quinn allegedly teamed up with during their BCS appearances. As for McNabb, his teammates included Marvin Harrison, Kevin Johnson, Roland Williams, Dwight Freeney, Keith Bulluck, Donovan Darius, Will Allen, Marlon Greenwood just to name a few guys that started for a minimum of 3 years at the next level. Some of those guys even made Pro Bowls and Superbowls. I'm sure when McNabb left and nobody else could fill his void - it impacted the recruiting process in Central NY. That said, Rob McPherson and Marvin Graves created enough of a winning tradition to get a kid like McNabb excited enough to follow in their footsteps. The inability to FIND the next kid like that has thrown Syracuse off the college football map. Things won't be much different at Notre Dame if they don't improve over the last 2 seasons.

 

If Notre Dame has truely continued to have tons of talent - Quinn must have had something special to be the ONLY kid capable of winning consistently enough for BCS consideration with it. That's what the SPECIAL QBs do - they elevate everyone's game so the team wins consistently.

- Tom F.

You just mentioned SEVERAL NFL players from the offensive side of Quinn's team. They're not "superstars", well neither is Quinn at this point. What my main point is... he was surrounded by NFL talent, or at least a lot of guys who at least got their shot. Only a handful of college teams in the country got as many sniffs from the NFL during that time period. Anderson had 1 offensive lineman drafted (next to last pick of the draft) that he played behind. No recievers, no other lineman.

 

Anderson played under Erickson as a 18 year old sophomore, did pretty OK for a sophomore. Junior year there was a coaching switch, in came Riley with a difficult to grasp offense, and yes, statistically DA appeared to regress... but every QB in Riley's system struggles for 1-2 years... just ask the guy who replaced Anderson, Matt Moore, who's also a young NFL Quarterback with a few starts under his belt. Anderson's senior year was hardly a regression... went from 24/24 TD/INT to 29/17. When he finished his college career he was generally considered to be one of the top 4 QBs in the Pac 10, and so far has done more in the NFL than all but Rodgers. He did this with little NFL talent on the line or at receiver (Hass, who graduated later, has been on a practice squad for a couple years)... In fact, in the prior year running back Steven Jackson was drafted and nearly all the scouting reports mentioned that line play at OSU was suspect, one reporter at ESPN even called it the worst line in D1 ball DA's Junior year. After Jackson left, Anderson was left to carry the team... OSU's running game racked up all of 600-700 yards the following season, still playing behind a suspect line.

 

Boo hoo, none of Brady Quinn's offensive teammates in college is an NFL superstar. That doesn't change the fact that he was surrounded by talent that got NFL looks, more than most QBs of the day had the luxury of.

[Flugel]

Anderson played under Erickson as a 18 year old sophomore, did pretty OK for a sophomore. Junior year there was a coaching switch, in came Riley with a difficult to grasp offense, and yes, statistically DA appeared to regress... but every QB in Riley's system struggles for 1-2 years... just ask the guy who replaced Anderson, Matt Moore, who's also a young NFL Quarterback with a few starts under his belt. Anderson's senior year was hardly a regression... went from 24/24 TD/INT to 29/17. When he finished his college career he was generally considered to be one of the top 4 QBs in the Pac 10, and so far has done more in the NFL than all but Rodgers. He did this with little NFL talent on the line or at receiver (Hass, who graduated later, has been on a practice squad for a couple years)... In fact, in the prior year running back Steven Jackson was drafted and nearly all the scouting reports mentioned that line play at OSU was suspect, one reporter at ESPN even called it the worst line in D1 ball DA's Junior year. After Jackson left, Anderson was left to carry the team... OSU's running game racked up all of 600-700 yards the following season, still playing behind a suspect line.

 

Boo hoo, none of Brady Quinn's offensive teammates in college is an NFL superstar. That doesn't change the fact that he was surrounded by talent that got NFL looks, more than most QBs of the day had the luxury of.

 

Boo hoo? What are you Dr Seuss ?

 

You're only making the debate easier for me. I was only able to mention Tuck, Fasano and Grant as NFL starters from the 4 years Quinn was there so I'm not sure how that constitutes me giving you several names. I think I found 4 times as many SU guys that started 3 years or more in the NFL if you want to revisit the list of names I provided.

 

Needless to say, it looks like DA has always thrown far too many INTs. 17 INTs in the Pac 10 as his personal best isn't anything to brag about. Sorry! You'll have to excuse me if I'm not impressed about his being the 4th best QB in the conference that's continued to turn out major disappointments like Cade McNown, Akili Smith, Joey Harrington, Ryan Leaf, Kyle Boller, Rob Johnson, Matt Leinart, etc... John Elway was a lifetime ago. If you can't get it done at the LESS complex level - it's hard to expect a better prognosis against NFL minds like that of Dick LeBeau and Rex Ryan in our very own division. Just out of curiosity, how many times has DA beaten Pittsburgh? I'll let Dr Seuss find the excuse. Seems like Oregon State beats USC ALOT more frequently now than they did with DA. Were you still blaming popcorn vendors and conspiracies?

- Tom F.

[DawgTracker]

Kosar didn't have a cannon but he was insanely accurate with long passes. Quinn will not be throwing thirty yard frozen ropes but if the pass is delivered accurately and at the right time you don't need a cannon.

[Drunkandstoopid]

Boo hoo? What are you Dr Seuss ?

 

You're only making the debate easier for me. Looks like DA has always thrown far too many INTs. 17 INTs in the Pac 10 as his personal best isn't anything to brag about. Sorry! You'll have to excuse me if I'm not impressed about his being the 4th best QB in the conference that's continued to turn out major disappointments like Cade McNown, Akili Smith, Joey Harrington, Ryan Leaf, Kyle Boller, Rob Johnson, Matt Leinart, etc... John Elway was a lifetime ago. If you can't get it done at the LESS complex level - it's hard to expect a better prognosis against NFL minds like that of Dick LeBeau and Rex Ryan in our very own division. Just out of curiosity, how many times has DA beaten Pittsburgh? I'll let Dr Seuss find the excuse. Seems like Oregon State beats USC ALOT more frequently now than they did with DA. Were you still blaming popcorn vendors and conspiracies?

- Tom F.

Actually, it was 25TDs against 13 Ints in his first year of starting. It's all about the offense and the surroundings. Put DA behind a good line and an offense that doesn't take risks when he was in college and he'd have had pretty good stats. Every QB has struggled with Ints at OSU under Riley's package, it's part of the offense.

 

Oregon State is a lot better team now than back in the day that DA played... those years they had a good QB, Running Back and 1-2 good college level receivers, no line, a couple defensive standouts. Last year they tied Ohio State for NFL draftees. Keep an eye on them the next two years.

 

As far as DA vs. Pittsburgh goes... He's started 3 times against them, and two of the games were within 4 points. What's the Browns record against Pittsburgh the last decade or so? I think Cleveland's only won twice this century... all Anderson's fault obviously.

[Flugel]

Actually, it was 25TDs against 13 Ints in his first year of starting. It's all about the offense and the surroundings. Put DA behind a good line and an offense that doesn't take risks when he was in college and he'd have had pretty good stats. Every QB has struggled with Ints at OSU under Riley's package, it's part of the offense.

 

Oregon State is a lot better team now than back in the day that DA played... those years they had a good QB, Running Back and 1-2 good college level receivers, no line, a couple defensive standouts. Last year they tied Ohio State for NFL draftees. Keep an eye on them the next two years.

 

As far as DA vs. Pittsburgh goes... He's started 3 times against them, and two of the games were within 4 points. What's the Browns record against Pittsburgh the last decade or so? I think Cleveland's only won twice this century... all Anderson's fault obviously.

 

Let's see paragraph number 1 had 2 excuses in the 2nd sentence + 2 excuses in the 3rd sentence + 1 excuse in the 4th sentence = 5 excuses

 

Paragraph #2 = 2 excuses

 

Last but not least, you've excused 0-3 vrs our biggest rival with impressive margin of defeat (I noticed you didn't credit Josh Cribbs for 2 kickoff returns greater than 97 yards in one of those defeats you are cherishing). I also noticed you didn't bring up how many first downs DA led our offense to in the 2nd half of that game we needed Cribbs' 2 returns but our offense didn't get a single first down until the final minute of the second half in Pittsburgh as the DA fans couldn't wait to blame the tired defense from ALL of the DA induced 3 and outs/turnovers. And HOW could I forget how impressive DA's 6 points of offense was vrs Pittsburgh on a day our defense only gave up 10 points right? Nonetheless paragraph number 3 = 2 excuses

 

In conclusion, 3 paragraphs for DA = 9 excuses. I comfortably rest my case. God Bless ya!

- Tom F.

[Drunkandstoopid]

Let's see paragraph number 1 had 2 excuses in the 2nd sentence + 2 excuses in the 3rd sentence + 1 excuse in the 4th sentence = 5 excuses

 

Paragraph #2 = 2 excuses

 

Last but not least, you've excused 0-3 vrs our biggest rival with impressive margin of defeat (I noticed you didn't credit Josh Cribbs for 2 kickoff returns greater than 97 yards in one of those defeats you are cherishing). I also noticed you didn't bring up how many first downs DA led our offense to in the 2nd half of that game we needed Cribbs' 2 returns but our offense didn't get a single first down until the final minute of the second half in Pittsburgh as the DA fans couldn't wait to blame the tired defense from ALL of the DA induced 3 and outs/turnovers. And HOW could I forget how impressive DA's 6 points of offense was vrs Pittsburgh on a day our defense only gave up 10 points right? Nonetheless paragraph number 3 = 2 excuses

 

In conclusion, 3 paragraphs for DA = 9 excuses. I comfortably rest my case. God Bless ya!

- Tom F.

Well, the first few months I was on this board I kept reading you making excuses for why Charlie Fry should be starting and DA shouldn't be in the mix for practice reps... that was after Charlie's 3 Pittsburgh losses, 41-zip, a three point loss and a 21-7 loss. Gotta beat Pittsburgh wasn't on your mind in those days.

 

No excuses... I think it'll be an interesting off season and I'll be happy with which ever QB the coaches choose... I'll just have to put up with your anti-DA crap in the meanwhile.

[Flugel]

Well, the first few months I was on this board I kept reading you making excuses for why Charlie Fry should be starting

 

No excuses... I think it'll be an interesting off season and I'll be happy with which ever QB the coaches choose... I'll just have to put up with your anti-DA crap in the meanwhile.

 

This is a CLEVELAND BROWNS message board not an Oregon State fanclub. Been telling you this each and every time you haven't wanted to hear it. If DA's regressing - I suggest you learn how to swallow like the rest of the tea baggers from your school.

 

As for your nonsense about Frye - it wasn't ME who brought him OR Trent Dilfer here. That said, you better believe I rooted for Frye to take over Dilfer's Poseiden Adventure. You're saying I should have rooted against him? Browns' fans don't root against BETTER alternatives. They just don't. I'm guessing since we got DA for the price of a bag of stale potato chips and a Walmart Coke - there was a reason for that. Hence the name Dumb Ass fit like a glove.

 

What aggravated me about this alleged QB competition of 2007 was that your boy DA and Charlie Frye took 4 preseason games to combine for 1 TD pass inspite of hogging most of the reps with the first string. Quinn threw 3 or 4 TD passes in a fraction of the time (and I think most were in his very first wide eyed appearance) and had another TD pass RAC didn't want overturned. And when it all came to decision time - the brass chose to start Charlie Frye. Isn't that what I predicted they would do ALL along primarily because Savage DRAFTED Frye to eventually replace Dilfer as starter? You're telling Browns' fans they needed to root against the guy they knew the brass would name as the starter UNLESS it was DA? You're STILL doing that today so nothing has changed. Part of me wanted Frye to succeed so we didn't need to RACE Quinn into action. The OTHER part of me noticed what QB had the offense MOST organized and playing well when the blocking and tackling was live in preseason. DA couldn't even get the offense lined up right. That's one of those things Mangini is looking for today.

 

Staying with the theme of always wanting better alternatives, that's really what this thread was supposed to be about. I never expected ANY Browns' fan to have a problem with it - just the kids at Oregon State with fitting screen names. If DA showed PROGRESS every season instead of steady regression, your Cupid might have made more sense to a Browns' fan. I STILL think Charlie Weis knows more about NFL QBs than any coach we've had in the new era so I'll trust his logic, experience and ability to train NFL Qbs when he said Quinn is ready for GREAT things. The Miami Dolphins NEVER traded Dan Marino for their version of Scott Mitchell nor should we. They didn't even misunderstand when and why Mitchell should start in Miami. It was only after Marino blew out his achilles tendon. Sorry!

- Tom F.

[Oldcrow1945]

While you're giving Quinn ALL the credit for Notre Dame's success his before he left, try to remember that a lot of talent left with him. 3 players drafted in '06, 7 in '07, 4 in '08... now just one last year. His last couple of years he played WITH a pretty talented team, at the college level, that seems to be on a downward "trend" (I know some people here like using that word) these days. Charlie has either done a poor job of evaluating or developing talent lately.

 

Quinn could be quite a player, but he was surrounded by some pretty good players at that level and can't get all the credit for the success that has since evaporated.

 

4 of those 14 players were day one selections. Not a lot of high quailty NFL talent there. 4 day one selections in 3 years. Not good at all.

Compare that to OSU who has 21 players selected in those same years with 8 day one selections. Twice as many day one selection as ND.

 

In the last five drafts ND has had 8 defensive players drafted. Just last year USC had 8 defensive players drafted!! In one year thay had as many as ND has had in the past 5 years!

 

As far as Weiss evaluating talent....That who process is a joke when it comes to ND players. There are so many domer homers that as soon as a player decides he's going to go to ND he goes from being rated as a two or three star recruit to a four or five star recruit!! He has to be be better than we thought!!! Charlie recruited him!!!! What a joke.

I think it's a combination of him not getting the talent that the media likes to portray and he's not the good teacher they likw to portray him as either.

[Flugel]

4 of those 14 players were day one selections. Not a lot of high quailty NFL talent there.

Compare that to OSU who has 21 players selected in those same years with 8 day one selections. Twice as many day one selection as ND.

 

In the last five drafts ND has had 8 defensive players drafted. Just last year USC had 8 defensive players drafted!! In one year thay had as many as ND has had in the past 5 years!

 

As far as Weiss evaluating talent....That who process is a joke when it comes to ND players. There are so many domer homers that as soon as a player decides he's going to go to ND he goes from being rated as a two or three star recruit to a four or five star recruit!! He has to be be better than we thought!!! Charlie recruited him!!!! What a joke.

I think it's a combination of him not getting the talent that the media likes to portray and he's not the good teacher they likw to portray him as either.

 

Good points OC. You have to remember, you are dealing with a guy that thinks DA deserves praise because we scored 6 points against Pittsburgh on a night they could only score 10 points. He thinks DA deserves tenure because we've been able to beat ZERO AFC teams that have won more than 8 games in a season each of the last 2 years. Yippee-kayay!

 

I can ALWAYS tell the difference between a Browns' fan and an Oregon State fan. I wanted to make this thread more about talking about the excitement and potential for new beginings with the RIGHT QB more than I wanted to remember how much time we've wasted gagging on the wrong QB.

 

As for the talent evaluator and positional training part about Weis - I'm coming from the QB position where Tom Brady says he owes 100% of his professional development to the teachings of Charlie Weis. That's about the BEST get em ready job I've ever seen for a guy that wasn't even the MOST popular QB on his college team or draftworthy before the end of round 6 - wouldn't you agree?

 

The way I read Weis was they don't make em any more intelligent, competitive or harder working than Quinn. He's got all the tools and Weis kept saying he's taught him everything he taught Tom Brady at an earlier age. Weis always made the parallels of BQ and TB - I'd have to apply more stock in his word than anyone else's at this point.

 

I think it showed up on the field when ND faced a FAR superior USC team and Quinn put his team AHEAD of USC the very last time his offense had the ball. USC needed a TD to win in the final minute and got it as time was expiring. Hard to blame that on Quinn unless one feels he needed to be the guy making game saving tackles after the O did their go ahead job.

 

If we've been making playoffs and consistently beating GOOD teams in our conference - there wouldn't be such a growing volume of people interested in yanking the knucklehead for the SMART QB. DA was making the SAME exact boneheaded mistakes he made vrs Tampa in 2006 when he was playing Santa Claus to the Ratbird defense in 2008. Suggs scored on him as did Ray Lewis right? Not for nothing but the rookie QB in Baltimore looked like the vet while DA looked like something they used to kick off the stage on the Gong Show. Pretty crackpipe level when the alternative is a promising first round draft pick that MOST of the receiving corps preferred.

- Tom F.

[PlaygroundLegend]

You know, I had a pretty sweet thread on Quinn's arm strength, no love flugs? lol

 

http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php...ic=2219&hl=

 

Anyway, I must agree 100%. Cannon arm QB's are sought after for their potential to be great, but they must have or learn all the other skills necessary. Quinn believe it or not, has a great arm (check his college scouting reports as well as his madden ratings, he's listed as a cannon arm QB).

 

Quinn also has the intangibles, the football knowledge, the love for the game (which is actually his obsession) check out this part of a browns article that pretty much explains why I think Quinn will be the guy:

 

That brings us to the subject of Brady Quinn, the Notre Dame quarterback who fell into the Browns' lap. With no games on the line in June, it's impossible to say how ready he is to be an NFL starter. But if work ethic means anything, Quinn is closer to Tom Brady than he is Jonathan Quinn.

 

The self-proclaimed best prepared quarterback of the 2007 draft is an NFL workaholic, and his improvements on the field are noticeable. Quinn appears more authoritative running an offense, and steps into his throws with confidence and accuracy. More impressive is how he works after practice.

 

Quinn will spend hours after a workout refining routes and practicing different throws to perfect his craft. The only downside to him is that Anderson will join him for some of those overtime sessions. Romeo Crennel must love it. Quinn's persistence in perfecting his craft is making Anderson a better quarterback. It's a win-win situation for the Browns.

 

"I've stayed home since January," Quinn said. "Between working out, throwing and watching film, I'll spend five to six hours a day here and do the same every weekday. Every weekend I might go somewhere. Lots of guys head out after the season for time off, it being the offseason and all that. Guys want to get away and spend time with their families. I'm trying to get comfortable with the offense."

 

As I stood on the side of the practice field watching one of Quinn's post-practice sessions, I took note of how he adjusted his release point on different passes to a receiver in the corner of the end zone. On some throws, his release point was technically sound, high and tight. On others, he was throwing a little more three-quarters in his delivery. He wasn't doing this by accident.

 

"That's the thing you've got to do to find a window to throw," Quinn said. "Playing in the NFL, you are never going to be able to stand here and just throw the ball. A lot of times, you are going to be on the move and you are going to be off-balance. You'll be throwing the ball where you normally don't throw from your normal arm slot."

[Flugel]

You know, I had a pretty sweet thread on Quinn's arm strength, no love flugs? lol

 

http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php...ic=2219&hl=

 

Anyway, I must agree 100%. Cannon arm QB's are sought after for their potential to be great, but they must have or learn all the other skills necessary. Quinn believe it or not, has a great arm (check his college scouting reports as well as his madden ratings, he's listed as a cannon arm QB).

 

Quinn also has the intangibles, the football knowledge, the love for the game (which is actually his obsession) check out this part of a browns article that pretty much explains why I think Quinn will be the guy:

 

My apologies Legend - that was REAL excellent stuff. Loved the video and all the stuff linked from Scout.com. You REALLY did your homework to back up your point of view about as well as I've ever seen it done by anyone. I'm sorry I missed that the first time through. Thanks for your bringing it with your reply in this thread!

 

If we don't ever give this kid a chance with the current alternatives on hand SHAME on us. Mangini doesn't seem that narrow minded though so I'm thankful of that.

 

While DA might be able to spread the field better vertically - Quinn's accuracy superiority will do more damage spreading the defense horizontally. THAT should be just as helpful in openning up the running lanes. When the weather kicks in as it always does - the horizontally is going to be come more significant like it ALWAYS has. It made a hero out of Sipe and exposed the weaknesses of Mike Phipps. I see the same parallels with Quinn vrs Anderson ONLY Quinn has a stronger arm than Sipe.

- Tom F.

 

 

[roach]

History tells me I've seen enough of the Derek Anderson story to know how it ends. Getting excited about the sequel seems about as uplifting as re-watching the Old Yeller movie. We just added the right young DAWG from the right pedigree. Who brings home a dawg and refuses to potty train it? RAC on crack - that's who. Those days are over. I welcome the Quinn era as a more intelligent face on the franchise. If you made it this far, thanks for reading!!!

- Tom F.

 

 

i figured some of you boys have been getting the shakes because it has been a while since you've read something negative about DA. i'm disappointed that it was Tom that had to provide the fix. Open those tourniquets and let the good feelings flow!

[Flugel]

i figured some of you boys have been getting the shakes because it has been a while since you've read something negative about DA. i'm disappointed that it was Tom that had to provide the fix. Open those tourniquets and let the good feelings flow!

 

LOL! Couldn't resist - we've been on pause for quite some time. His Tampa nightmare in 06 showed me a 3 game regression. There was a brief fast forward in 2007 until we hit the Cincy pause with the same 4 INT freeze. We've stayed there in 2008 and all of a sudden it's 2009 Ed.

 

We've got 2 choices:

1) Look ahead - and TRY to get excited about the 09 season

2) Stay stuck on pause - and see who can come up with better excuses than Lummy for all the inaccuracies every week.

 

- Tom F.

[Lumbergh]

LOL! Couldn't resist - we've been on pause for quite some time. His Tampa nightmare in 06 showed me a 3 game regression. There was a brief fast forward in 2007 until we hit the Cincy pause with the same 4 INT freeze. We've stayed there in 2008 and all of a sudden it's 2009 Ed.

 

Every QB worth a starting job in the NFL has a 4 pick game now and then.

 

Tom Brady himself has FIVE 4-pick games in his career.

 

Ben Rot, Eli, Peyton. They all have multiple 4+ pick games on the record. Peyton of course with the 6-pack in 2007.

 

INTs or not, coaches want to see first downs and TDs. And as you've seen, the guys who keep tossing TDs get on the field.

 

Your boy Quinnie on the other hand....well he got yanked for general ineffectiveness. i.e. there wasn't a chance in hell that he coulda thrown a ball into the vicinity of the end zone. And that 49% career completion percentage ain't gonna get it done when you're supposed forte is the dink and dunk.

 

As to your original rant, WINS......well guess who has the best win % since Kosar?

[Riffer X]

Brady Quinn will be the next big winning QB in Cleveland and it will start this season. I expect Quinn to be a starter here for at least 8-10 years and win multiple Super Bowl Trophies. By the time he leaves town, he will be on the same level as Otto Graham.

 

Book it

[Drunkandstoopid]

And as you've seen, the guys who keep tossing TDs get on the field.

 

Keeping this comment in mind... I took a look at the career TD percentage of every QB mentioned in the original post.

 

Otto Graham, who was assigned the phrase of "Bill Russel impact" had a very impressive 6.6% career TD/attempt percentage. Wow!

 

Peyton Manning sits at 5.6, Joe Montana at 5.1. VERY GOOD.

 

From there we see Anderson at 4.6, Sipe at 4.5, Plunkett at 4.4, Elway at 4.1, Kosar at 3.7 Phipps at 3.1 and Quinn at 2.1%.

 

What does it all mean?

 

 

[Drunkandstoopid]

Are you serious?

Those are the actual numbers.

[Lumbergh]

Brady Quinn will be the next big winning QB in Cleveland and it will start this season. I expect Quinn to be a starter here for at least 8-10 years and win multiple Super Bowl Trophies. By the time he leaves town, he will be on the same level as Otto Graham.

 

Book it

 

wake up riff, you're sleep-typing again.

[Guest mz.]

We have another "weak ass" schedule this season, so let's hope whichever dude is in there grabbing Mack's ass can take advantage of it. If it's Anderson and he gets "fat" again, I guess I'll live.

[Lumbergh]

I was actually being sarcastic.

 

Quinn has started 3 games, you can't infer anything from his numbers, yet.

 

Anderson got fat on a weak ass schedule in 07. I'm not sure where you got those stats from, but do they have his percentage just from last year? That might be a more telling statistic. Sure the average is pretty good, but again we're talking about a guy who feasted on a bunch of winless and sub .500 teams. When we played real tough competition this year, he folded like a lawn chair.

 

So why didn't Quinn get fat on his weak ass schedule in '08?

 

He can't get fat against anybody but Navy apparently.

 

BTW, Anderson's TD% was 3.2 last year vs top competition, substantially higher than Quinn's vs weak competition.

[OconRecon]

...Quinn has started 3 games, you can't infer anything from his numbers, yet...

 

Bingo, bingo, bingo. Stats101.

 

We need the pre-season to start as we just don't have enough to do around here.

[Lumbergh]

Anderson shit the bed against top competition.

 

what you don't even bother with the Giants caveat anymore? It hurts you to think one of the greatest games in franchise history was engineered last yr by DA, doesn't it?

 

And FYI, Quinn shit the bed against ALL competition.

 

Denver included.

 

We all know DA would have lit Denver up and posted the easy W.

 

And Buffalo with Trent Edwards tossing 3 first half picks in his own territory? Yeah let's take a wild guess and say Anderson wouldn't have settled for a total of 6 points.

 

Houston? I seem to remember a 10 point victory with DA at the helm. Not the same story when BQ went in was it?