Robert Kraft charged with solicitation

[choco]

6 hours ago, Gunz41 said:

 it is hard for me to believe that someone with that status and wealth would knowingly participate, much less be "involved."

And why's that? Cause your wealth of life experience still doesn't allow you to fathom that rich people have access to shit you can't wrap your head around? Perhaps, since you have no experience being a billionaire, that you have no clue, as Joe schmoe, what a billionaire would actually do?  

What you would do is not what Robert Kraft would do. Understand the difference

[hoorta]

11 hours ago, ATOM said:

and of course you completely swing and miss the entire point Which is good ole rog sez he holds owners to a higher standard  but only shows that it is a good old boys club and rog will cover there ass's  and as far as my financial well being from birth to up till now is really none of your fucking business 

I won't delve into your business. This just news just broke, so  cool it until the NFL does it's due diligence. Obvious violation of the personal conduct policy. Yet to be seen how hard (or not ) the NFL is going to discipline Kraft. 

Sure, the owners are Goodfellas boss, I have to wonder what their collective opinion of Kraft visiting a massage parlor is...  

[nickers]

1 hour ago, hoorta said:

I won't delve into your business. This just news just broke, so  cool it until the NFL does it's due diligence. Obvious violation of the personal conduct policy. Yet to be seen how hard (or not ) the NFL is going to discipline Kraft. 

Sure, the owners are Goodfellas boss, I have to wonder what their collective opinion of Kraft visiting a massage parlor is...  

Well ya know.. I always had this feeling Jerry Jones is one who frequents these types of places.. Just call it a strange vibe..... I bet Kraft is not the only one...  Can you imagine the jokes in the Pats locker room?.. Honestly.. If I was caught..I would feel pretty weird walking into the building.. If you gonna do that stuff.. Do it at an apartment or somewhere out in the country where theres no media around...

[Clevfan4life]

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/golf/johnny-delprete-boyfriend-of-lpga-star-jessica-korda-arrested-for-soliciting-prostitution-in-florida-sting/ar-BBTZcUf?li=BBnbfcL

 

Damn, they're really cracking down on the treasure coast. Totally sux, i go there every year to visit fam. I hope this shit was for soliciting more than a happy ending.....

[Flugel]

22 hours ago, Westside Steve said:

Oh please. I certainly understand the jealousy of most of the league toward the Patriots and the middle-class against the rich but for God's sake this is a misdemeanor.  Nobody is suggesting that he's on the ground floor of some huge human trafficking scheme. Besides that there's a good chance the misdemeanor itself will be dropped like Callaway's weed possession charge.

WSS

Apparently, I hold you to a higher standard than you want to hold for yourself in this one Steve so hear me out.  First, I've always thought Robert Kraft was a great owner that deserved to be well respected BEFORE this went down. I've also never been shy about posting my respect for Belichick regardless of how unpopular that was at times. I rooted for NE in the last Superbowl which seems pretty outrageous if I'm just jealous of NE or its owner.   Disappointed is a much better summary; because he sure fooled my asss all this time.

Not to be outdone, I got the same kick in the Adam's Apple that I got when I learned what Joe Paterno was allowing to go on in HIS program/under HIS rule. Little boys and teens getting sodomized against their will there isn't that much different than girls in the same age groups that have been trafficked to sex for profit against their will (regardless of how many millionaires are power glommed into the clientele). 

If you read the article or did a little research on the business he's contributed to and participated in more than once (at least on camera) - his actions are condoning and perpetuating what's going on.  Spare me the ground floor argument and try reading up on the business one of his buddies referred him to as well as human trafficking. The 30 minutes of Florida radio I got on it all said there's about a 0% chance that any repeat customers have no knowledge of the trafficking taking place at the Rub and Spray.  The ugly side of human trafficking involves females that are often well under 16 years old with zero care for their age/welfare once the profiting from their situation begins.  Those that OWN them actually want them addicted to drugs so it gives them a need to stay and become more hopeless to their freedoms lost.   Isn't there another crime if someone in the sexual act is under 16 years of age?  Yeah, sweep that right under the rug too while you're at it.  If you want to get somewhat of an idea what human trafficking is all about - watch the movie "Taken" sometime.

So, what was your beef to me again?  "It's only a misdemeanor"?    Phew!!!!!!!!!!!  That changes everything Steve.  GREAT guy!  So was Joe Paterno by your standard.  Was Paterno ever even arrested in all that time he could have been?    You must have been able to correct a lot of people with that one.   He may only get the slap on the wrist you want; but I can't help but think of him  similar to the way I ended up thinking of Paterno. 2 guys with so much power that only wanted to plead ignorant when they could have done something about a very ugly situation unfolding all around them.  It surprises me a guy like you that always wants to look at the why and how only wants to conclude it's only a misdemeanor, if that...

[Gunz41]

13 hours ago, choco said:

And why's that? Cause your wealth of life experience still doesn't allow you to fathom that rich people have access to shit you can't wrap your head around? Perhaps, since you have no experience being a billionaire, that you have no clue, as Joe schmoe, what a billionaire would actually do?  

What you would do is not what Robert Kraft would do. Understand the difference

No, has nothing to do with my experience. But he is obviously an intelligent man, and with his wealth, I surmise that if this were to want to participate in this, that he would do it conspicuously, not go somewhere where he could get caught. 

But let's just assume he did receive the services, that certainly doesn't mean he was involved in the practices of what was happening. To be talking about him having a part in trafficking.

I'm not saying he couldn't be guilty of being a customer, that is plausible. I find it harder to believe that he had prior knowledge of it, and almost impossible to me that he was more than a patron of place. 

But what I find ludicrous is people rushing to judgment after a day or 2. Certainly not everything has come out. That is precisely why I bring up the actor from Empire. There were people who were quick to believe everything and then when something else comes out are proven wrong. Then there are those who said they knew all along he was making it up. The point is, when things like this come out, people formulate opinions based on biases and many other factors besides the truth. Things like politics, sports affiliation, jealousy, racism, sexism, etc. And that is on BOTH sides of them 

I just believe that need the whole story before condemning someone. I would be willing to bet that if this came out about someone else who is thought fondly of by the people condemning Kraft, the tune would change. Then the sentiment would be "we should wait until we know more, I find this hard to believe, hes a good person who was at the wrong place at wrong time" etc. 

So just think about that before you condemn. And if you need more proof on the quickness of the condemnation, change the headline to Baker Mayfield or Joe Thomas or Lebron James. Would you still believe it just that fast?

[nickers]

I dunno... I suspect that with all of the money Kraft has.. He would at least find out whats going on there.. I find it hard to believe a man of his power didn't know... Nice people have sexual quirks , too...

[Gunz41]

3 hours ago, Flugel said:

Apparently, I hold you to a higher standard than you want to hold for yourself in this one Steve so hear me out.  First, I've always thought Robert Kraft was a great owner that deserved to be well respected BEFORE this went down. I've also never been shy about posting my respect for Belichick regardless of how unpopular that was at times. I rooted for NE in the last Superbowl which seems pretty outrageous if I'm just jealous of NE or its owner.   Disappointed is a much better summary; because he sure fooled my asss all this time.

Not to be outdone, I got the same kick in the Adam's Apple that I got when I learned what Joe Paterno was allowing to go on in HIS program/under HIS rule. Little boys and teens getting sodomized against their will there isn't that much different than girls in the same age groups that have been trafficked to sex for profit against their will (regardless of how many millionaires are power glommed into the clientele). 

If you read the article or did a little research on the business he's contributed to and participated in more than once (at least on camera) - his actions are condoning and perpetuating what's going on.  Spare me the ground floor argument and try reading up on the business one of his buddies referred him to as well as human trafficking. The 30 minutes of Florida radio I got on it all said there's about a 0% chance that any repeat customers have no knowledge of the trafficking taking place at the Rub and Spray.  The ugly side of human trafficking involves females that are often well under 16 years old with zero care for their age/welfare once the profiting from their situation begins.  Those that OWN them actually want them addicted to drugs so it gives them a need to stay and become more hopeless to their freedoms lost.   Isn't there another crime if someone in the sexual act is under 16 years of age?  Yeah, sweep that right under the rug too while you're at it.  If you want to get somewhat of an idea what human trafficking is all about - watch the movie "Taken" sometime.

So, what was your beef to me again?  "It's only a misdemeanor"?    Phew!!!!!!!!!!!  That changes everything Steve.  GREAT guy!  So was Joe Paterno by your standard.  Was Paterno ever even arrested in all that time he could have been?    You must have been able to correct a lot of people with that one.   He may only get the slap on the wrist you want; but I can't help but think of him  similar to the way I ended up thinking of Paterno. 2 guys with so much power that only wanted to plead ignorant when they could have done something about a very ugly situation unfolding all around them.  It surprises me a guy like you that always wants to look at the why and how only wants to conclude it's only a misdemeanor, if that...

You make a valid point, but you seem to be set in a view that everyone should know everything about what goes on in a place there are a patron of. 

That isn't to say that he is innocent, but to let everything come out before you label him as Joe 2.0. I'll bet you have been, and I have been in a place that sells something illegal "behind the scenes." Say a gas station that sells drugs with a "code word." 

I'm not digging into the history of this place, but it would be inconceivable that every massage for every customer was something shady, and it took this long to figure it out. So let's say they have 10 customers a day (I'm sure it's way more), and are open 300 days. That's 3000, and in all that time they didn't have 1 person who came in who was so mortified that they went to the cops? 

[Gunz41]

4 minutes ago, nickers said:

I dunno... I suspect that with all of the money Kraft has.. He would at least find out whats going on there.. I find it hard to believe a man of his power didn't know... Nice people have sexual quirks , too...

Well isn't it just as likely with all the money and stature that he has that he would have some kind of relationship with some cop or something there where he could get information about what could be coming?

I mean if we are going to go on an assumption that he knew about the place, knew about the trafficking, and was involved then he would be terrible. So he would certainly try and protect his shadiness and continue with his benefits?

[ATOM]

14 hours ago, choco said:

And why's that? Cause your wealth of life experience still doesn't allow you to fathom that rich people have access to shit you can't wrap your head around? Perhaps, since you have no experience being a billionaire, that you have no clue, as Joe schmoe, what a billionaire would actually do?  

What you would do is not what Robert Kraft would do. Understand the difference

oh and of course choc has all the answers wow so tell us choco since you come off as someone who hangs out with the rich and famous please tell us of your life experiences of how billionaires spend their time are they petting puppies or smashing their skulls in cause they can get away with it,tell us choco

[Clevfan4life]

So its verified he knew those girls were being held agai st their will and he invested his own money in it?

 

[Clevfan4life]

And the sexual act he solicited was more than a hj?

[nickers]

5 hours ago, Gunz41 said:

Well isn't it just as likely with all the money and stature that he has that he would have some kind of relationship with some cop or something there where he could get information about what could be coming?

I mean if we are going to go on an assumption that he knew about the place, knew about the trafficking, and was involved then he would be terrible. So he would certainly try and protect his shadiness and continue with his benefits?

Well I don't know about you or , any one else.... When I go places or buy anything.. I like to do a little research about it...  For example.. is it safe....  Are there any reviews... Are they in line with the BBB , Etc!

[Gunz41]

3 hours ago, nickers said:

Well I don't know about you or , any one else.... When I go places or buy anything.. I like to do a little research about it...  For example.. is it safe....  Are there any reviews... Are they in line with the BBB , Etc!

Well yes, of course. But that doesn't change what I said. Do you really think that something like that would be publicized? I don't think the corner store that sells drugs has reviews that says that.

Or use a different example that could be legal and illegal. I don't think the gas station that sells beer will also have something that says "we sell to minors." Just like a massage parlor, I don't imagine its anywhere with reviews that you can get more than a massage. Those would just be inviting actions to be taken. 

You can even use something less nefarious. I'm sure there are plenty of reviews, research, etc on Nike shoes. Yet look at what happened to Zion.

I really can't tell if some of you guys are coming up with these examples are actually serious, just dislike the Patriots that much to not consider the other side of the argument, or ate just semi trolling. If you REALLY think you can get this kind of information just like that on something illegal, then you are way more connected than 99% of humans 

[nickers]

54 minutes ago, Gunz41 said:

Well yes, of course. But that doesn't change what I said. Do you really think that something like that would be publicized? I don't think the corner store that sells drugs has reviews that says that.

Or use a different example that could be legal and illegal. I don't think the gas station that sells beer will also have something that says "we sell to minors." Just like a massage parlor, I don't imagine its anywhere with reviews that you can get more than a massage. Those would just be inviting actions to be taken. 

You can even use something less nefarious. I'm sure there are plenty of reviews, research, etc on Nike shoes. Yet look at what happened to Zion.

I really can't tell if some of you guys are coming up with these examples are actually serious, just dislike the Patriots that much to not consider the other side of the argument, or ate just semi trolling. If you REALLY think you can get this kind of information just like that on something illegal, then you are way more connected than 99% of humans 

It's not rocket science.. I'll just say this.. By the time one is 15 years old.. They know the difference between right and wrong pretty much... It's about how you carry yourself I guess..

[Flugel]

18 hours ago, Gunz41 said:

You make a valid point, but you seem to be set in a view that everyone should know everything about what goes on in a place there are a patron of. 

That isn't to say that he is innocent, but to let everything come out before you label him as Joe 2.0. I'll bet you have been, and I have been in a place that sells something illegal "behind the scenes." Say a gas station that sells drugs with a "code word." 

I'm not digging into the history of this place, but it would be inconceivable that every massage for every customer was something shady,

If you're going to debate people, you should dig into the history of the place before you challenge people that have researched it.  It'll answer some of your questions better than someone you just think has a premature agenda against Robert Kraft. 

[choco]

18 hours ago, ATOM said:

oh and of course choc has all the answers wow so tell us choco since you come off as someone who hangs out with the rich and famous please tell us of your life experiences of how billionaires spend their time are they petting puppies or smashing their skulls in cause they can get away with it,tell us choco

couldnt have missed the point anymore...when someone says, "i dont think kraft would have...." it typically means "i dont think I would have..." 

unless you have a billion dollars, how can you even fathom how one would act?  i dont know what i would do with that much money, but i dont have any problems being honest with myself.  maybe i'd grab a kilo, go bang high end girls, -buy a football team and enjoy the limelight.  perhaps, if i was inclined, maybe id want a constant supply of foreign girls that i can use at any time.  frankly, none of us know anything about kraft other than whats in the media, so how about refraining from "knowing" what another person would do?

 

[Gunz41]

2 hours ago, Flugel said:

If you're going to debate people, you should dig into the history of the place before you challenge people that have researched it.  It'll answer some of your questions better than someone you just think has a premature agenda against Robert Kraft. 

No, not really. I'm saying I am not going to see how long they have been open, etc. That really has nothing to do with my point. 

Just answer the question I put in one of these posts, what would be your reaction if it were Baker Mayfield, Joe Thomas, Lebron James, or even someone close to you? If you would have the same reaction, then you aren't one that is the issue with being premature. If you would have a different reaction, then what does that tell you?

Again, I haven't once said he is 100% innocent. My point is within hours of this coming out that he was being vilified, cast judgement upon. And not just for having services done (which is possible, but the brain in me says he could get same thing privately), but for actually being a co conspirator and being part of trafficking. 

Just look at some of the things said in this thread. 

So since I have not looked up how long the establishment has been open, let's look at a few hypotheticals. Say it has been open a few months, not a lot of time to have a lot of reviews. Been open for years, if this practice had been going that long, don't you think something would have come out by now? 

As for he had been there before, the ONLY way these illegal places can function is by having a front as something legal. Which means, that real massages happen there, just like the store where you can buy illegal drugs but they sell legal things as well.

There are other things as well. My entire point isn't that Kraft is this great man, I don't know him, its that there is a possibility that he was involved in nothing nefarious, yet he is being talked about as a monster. And was all this vilification done after a long investigation, and where everything has come out, no it was hrs after the news broke. 

[Westside Steve]

54 minutes ago, Gunz41 said:

No, not really. I'm saying I am not going to see how long they have been open, etc. That really has nothing to do with my point. 

Just answer the question I put in one of these posts, what would be your reaction if it were Baker Mayfield, Joe Thomas, Lebron James, or even someone close to you? If you would have the same reaction, then you aren't one that is the issue with being premature. If you would have a different reaction, then what does that tell you?

 speaking only for myself in my younger days every band member that got married most of the road crew and a lot of our friends would participate in a bachelor party which often included a visit to a house of prostitution. Actually by the time we got there the guest of honor was invariably too drunk to complete the bargain we made. Money did change hands for services promised. I'm not a personal fan of strip clubs but I know a lot of guys who are and frequent them on occasion. I have no idea the life situations of any of the females involved and it never occurred to any of us to ask. But I will assume that every guy on this board even if he has not personally participated in any like this, he knows someone who has. Has human trafficking ever been part of the conversation with any of you guys before you entered a cat house, spoke to a pimp or stood outside a strip bar? Just asking.

Again, I haven't once said he is 100% innocent. My point is within hours of this coming out that he was being vilified, cast judgement upon. And not just for having services done (which is possible, but the brain in me says he could get same thing privately), but for actually being a co conspirator and being part of trafficking. 

Just look at some of the things said in this thread. 

So since I have not looked up how long the establishment has been open, let's look at a few hypotheticals. Say it has been open a few months, not a lot of time to have a lot of reviews. Been open for years, if this practice had been going that long, don't you think something would have come out by now? 

As for he had been there before, the ONLY way these illegal places can function is by having a front as something legal. Which means, that real massages happen there, just like the store where you can buy illegal drugs but they sell legal things as well.

There are other things as well. My entire point isn't that Kraft is this great man, I don't know him, its that there is a possibility that he was involved in nothing nefarious, yet he is being talked about as a monster. And was all this vilification done after a long investigation, and where everything has come out, no it was hrs after the news broke. 

 

[The Gipper]

I have only been tangentially following this story......but....as a lawyer....I kind of have questions about the focus of this investigation. (and what I have to say has nothing to do with Robert Kraft....unless in fact he knew about and was involved in  the sex trafficking and essential "slavery" of the women involved):

Was the focus to  stop the "sex slave ring"?   Or merely to catch the Johns who were patronizing the place?

I heard that they arrested anywhere from 25 ot 200 hundred "patrons".

I also hear that they have video tape of these guys doing what they..and the women did?

So, I have to ask:  IF their target were the operators of the facility...and IF their goal was to "rescue" if you will the women being held against their will....then how the hell did they get videotape? 

It seems that the police almost would have have to had permission from the proprietors to do the filming....unless it was somehow done surreptitiously.  Should not the proprietors have been the main people they were after?

And if they were wanting to "free" the women.....why would they allow things to go on through hundreds of videos.....and why would the investigators allow these women to undergo hundreds of supposedly "forced or involuntary"  sex acts before they did something about it?

Why, upon having some indication that it was indeed a "sex slave" operation, would the police not have immediately gone in and  questioned the proprietors and questioned the women, and close the place down.....instead of allowing what I heard was about 200 people undertake the "services" being provided by this place. 

It reeks of something being rotten in Denmark.....It looks possibly that they were just trying to catch Johns....and not bust up an operation where these women were being held against their will.

These would be some of the questions that Kraft's lawyers could likely bring up (not that that would necessarily be a defense to paying for a hooker).

[ballpeen]

If they were sex slaves, why were they not saved immediately?

 

What is more important, freeing slaves or seeing how many people show up for a blowjob?

[The Gipper]

1 minute ago, ballpeen said:

If they were sex slaves, why were they not saved immediately?

 

What is more important, freeing slaves or seeing how many people show up for a blowjob?

Precisely.....that is why the priority of the investigation can be questioned.

[Westside Steve]

2 hours ago, ballpeen said:

If they were sex slaves, why were they not saved immediately?

 

What is more important, freeing slaves or seeing how many people show up for a blowjob?

And how long had this been going on under the full knowledge of the authorities and to what purpose? 

WSS

[hoorta]

9 hours ago, Flugel said:

If you're going to debate people, you should dig into the history of the place before you challenge people that have researched it.  It'll answer some of your questions better than someone you just think has a premature agenda against Robert Kraft. 

I'll wait until some of that research is verified Flugs...  

If there was suspected sex trafficking going on- why wait months, instead of shutting down the places immediately? So they could bust some high profile Johns? 

[Westside Steve]

http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/26078163/patriots-owner-robert-kraft-officially-charged-first-degree-solicitation-prostitute

 

Well I guess now it's official.

WSS

[hoorta]

9 minutes ago, Westside Steve said:

http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/26078163/patriots-owner-robert-kraft-officially-charged-first-degree-solicitation-prostitute

 

Well I guess now it's official.

WSS

What TMZ would pay for that video.    

[The Gipper]

58 minutes ago, hoorta said:

I'll wait until some of that research is verified Flugs...  

If there was suspected sex trafficking going on- why wait months, instead of shutting down the places immediately? So they could bust some high profile Johns? 

Again, precisely.

[Gunz41]

5 hours ago, The Gipper said:

I have only been tangentially following this story......but....as a lawyer....I kind of have questions about the focus of this investigation. (and what I have to say has nothing to do with Robert Kraft....unless in fact he knew about and was involved in  the sex trafficking and essential "slavery" of the women involved):

Was the focus to  stop the "sex slave ring"?   Or merely to catch the Johns who were patronizing the place?

I heard that they arrested anywhere from 25 ot 200 hundred "patrons".

I also hear that they have video tape of these guys doing what they..and the women did?

So, I have to ask:  IF their target were the operators of the facility...and IF their goal was to "rescue" if you will the women being held against their will....then how the hell did they get videotape? 

It seems that the police almost would have have to had permission from the proprietors to do the filming....unless it was somehow done surreptitiously.  Should not the proprietors have been the main people they were after?

And if they were wanting to "free" the women.....why would they allow things to go on through hundreds of videos.....and why would the investigators allow these women to undergo hundreds of supposedly "forced or involuntary"  sex acts before they did something about it?

Why, upon having some indication that it was indeed a "sex slave" operation, would the police not have immediately gone in and  questioned the proprietors and questioned the women, and close the place down.....instead of allowing what I heard was about 200 people undertake the "services" being provided by this place. 

It reeks of something being rotten in Denmark.....It looks possibly that they were just trying to catch Johns....and not bust up an operation where these women were being held against their will.

These would be some of the questions that Kraft's lawyers could likely bring up (not that that would necessarily be a defense to paying for a hooker).

Without going into even more about Kraft, as I still think my point is correct (and that is even with saying he could be guilty), what you are saying is very interesting. If the agenda was to stop trafficking, then the months long sting just doesn't look good. 

From an article I read (isnt it amazing guys, I can read), it sounds like it's been going on for months, and after allegedly having evidence they were allowed to use hidden cameras. I also read that they were interviewing patrons after they came out.

Even if all the reports are true, something just doesn't add up. It doesn't make sense that a criminal organization would be that oblivious and not have protection for themselves. And if what some have suggested (no not just on here) that just assumed that people going to this place had to be involved with illegal things, well then if everyone doing that then undercover agents would have participated as well. 

[ballpeen]

3 hours ago, Westside Steve said:

And how long had this been going on under the full knowledge of the authorities and to what purpose? 

WSS

Even if a few hours it was to long.  Seems the attitude was "she has already licked one lollypop, what's another 20?"

[Flugel]

14 hours ago, hoorta said:

I'll wait until some of that research is verified Flugs...  

If there was suspected sex trafficking going on- why wait months, instead of shutting down the places immediately? So they could bust some high profile Johns? 

Why wait?   Great question Larry; but it is Florida where the most recent state elections still necessitated recounts.

That said.  The place was being investigated for trafficking and prostitution.  Now there's a bunch of arrests for soliciting prostitution thanks in large to cameras helping to expedite proof of sexual activity. My guess is the suspected trafficking stuff takes longer to research fully and prove.  For example, some of the Asian Employees were sleeping/living there which seems like something pretty important to dig deeper on in investigations such as why? how long?  etc... Then, it's how did they get there and where are they from and even how old are they.  Also, what keeps them there?  I'm sure there's way more to research.

Busting 25 high profile Johns might not make you and others happy Larry - but it might open enough blind eyes to what and where human trafficking can go.  I KEEP hearing human trafficking is a huge problem and yet I've rarely read/heard about any arrests for it anywhere in this country for such a big alleged problem. Even in this case, the people that are getting arrested are getting arrested for solicitation of prostitution (not trafficking).  They have to peel off layers to get to the trafficking and who's responsible.