LogicIsForSquares Posted April 17, 2019 Report Share Posted April 17, 2019 2 minutes ago, Vambo said: I don't see it ever getting to the point of 95% jobless at least as long as Trump is in office but you could get there once the Left takes over. This isn't a discussion about the next 10 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LogicIsForSquares Posted April 17, 2019 Report Share Posted April 17, 2019 4 minutes ago, calfoxwc said: the only point you get is what you got - a point at the end of your beak. Nice one liner criticism of another poster in your one liner contribution to the discussion. Birdbrain. To be fair, OBF was thinking in the near term and UBI is an experiment in what we will do down the road. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldBrownsFan Posted April 17, 2019 Report Share Posted April 17, 2019 6 minutes ago, Vambo said: I don't see it ever getting to the point of 95% jobless at least as long as Trump is in office but you could get there once the Left takes over. The socialist left would take this country down the road of Venezuela. Punishing successful people in a capitalist country is a terrible idea. I don't want to see successful people punished for being successful. I want to see more successful people. We all benefit. They are the job creators and payers of much of the taxes. Tax them too much and what incentives do they have to build new factories or hire more workers? Instead of a reward they would only get penalized. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vambo Posted April 17, 2019 Author Report Share Posted April 17, 2019 1 minute ago, LogicIsForSquares said: This isn't a discussion about the next 10 years. Well how many years are we talking, lay out your details...what does your fantasy scenario look like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calfoxwc Posted April 17, 2019 Report Share Posted April 17, 2019 2 minutes ago, LogicIsForSquares said: So then we won't try to figure out what works for the future and we will wing it? to contrived crisis that have not happened anywhere in the world? ever? with an old solution to a malfunctioning system like socialism - spread the wealth to everybody, even when the wealth runs out? wait..... there is that problem again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LogicIsForSquares Posted April 17, 2019 Report Share Posted April 17, 2019 1 minute ago, Vambo said: Well how many years are we talking, lay out your details...what does your fantasy scenario look like. It isn't a fantasy. Moore's Law has us expecting to double computing speeds every two years. We didn't have readily dispersed smart phones and computers until the last 10 years or so. There is only a small section of jobs that derive zero benefit/increase in productivity from automation or computers. Robot assisted surgeries are already occuring. 20 years? 30 years? Who knows but it isn't far out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldBrownsFan Posted April 17, 2019 Report Share Posted April 17, 2019 9 minutes ago, LogicIsForSquares said: To be fair, OBF was thinking in the near term and UBI is an experiment in what we will do down the road. "The money comes without any restrictions, such as requiring recipients to be employed or maintain sobriety." ***************************** That is the biggest problem with the study and why I think it is a terrible idea. Human nature has proven again and again that just handing out aid like this is never really appreciated and is counter productive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LogicIsForSquares Posted April 17, 2019 Report Share Posted April 17, 2019 1 minute ago, calfoxwc said: to contrived crisis that have not happened anywhere in the world? ever? with an old solution to a malfunctioning system like socialism - spread the wealth to everybody, even when the wealth runs out? wait..... there is that problem again. It is a fast enough approaching issue that we should attempt to plan for it. I am not saying UBI is the answer. But I am never mad at people trying to experiment to figure out of it does or does not work. I live in the land of awful planning and the locals are shitting glass because they didn't plan for a future where coal doesn't have the same value and need. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calfoxwc Posted April 17, 2019 Report Share Posted April 17, 2019 10 minutes ago, LogicIsForSquares said: To be fair, OBF was thinking in the near term and UBI is an experiment in what we will do down the road. A futuristic experimental solution that takes real payments - what about the repercussions on society now? What is does, however inadvertently, is pave the way towards socialism and the tyranny and failure that has resulted, historically, every time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vambo Posted April 17, 2019 Author Report Share Posted April 17, 2019 1 minute ago, LogicIsForSquares said: It isn't a fantasy. Moore's Law has us expecting to double computing speeds every two years. We didn't have readily dispersed smart phones and computers until the last 10 years or so. There is only a small section of jobs that derive zero benefit/increase in productivity from automation or computers. Robot assisted surgeries are already occuring. 20 years? 30 years? Who knows but it isn't far out. Well you have us at 95% unemployment and giving away free money...do you see any type of a flaw in that scenario? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LogicIsForSquares Posted April 17, 2019 Report Share Posted April 17, 2019 Just now, OldBrownsFan said: "The money comes without any restrictions, such as requiring recipients to be employed or maintain sobriety." ***************************** That is the biggest problem with the study and why I think it is a terrible idea. Human nature has proven again and again that just handing out aid like this is never really appreciated and is counter productive. As it stands, sure. I have to deal with tons of deadbeats. They live on Medicaid and SS checks for fake injuries. If UBI tanks when tested, you move on to something else. Simple as that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LogicIsForSquares Posted April 17, 2019 Report Share Posted April 17, 2019 Just now, Vambo said: Well you have us at 95% unemployment and giving away free money...do you see any type of a flaw in that scenario? Well the concept of a job would be pretty well extinct. The traditional idea of currency may disappear. I don't know thus I am not the one out there doing social experiments. On paper, it should bomb. But that is why you test it out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorka Posted April 17, 2019 Report Share Posted April 17, 2019 14 minutes ago, LogicIsForSquares said: In the future, ALL, not some, ALL jobs will be drastically reduced to the point that artists and creative types may be the only ones with jobs because AI software can't do that with maximum productivity. So yes, working in trades is good now. So are most jobs, as of right now. But UBI experiments are about what we are going to do down the road. The alternative is socialism that limits capitalism. Because if you stick with a capitalistic model, you want to maximize productivity. Why would I hire three people to work construction when I can eventually just hire a machine that does it better than them and for a fraction of the price? Not in our lifetimes. Winner of the most far fetched statement thus far. I really cant see a robot arriving at your home to fix that pluming leak in the near future...or even the far future. There are, and will continue be, many, many jobs that only humans will be capable of doing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LogicIsForSquares Posted April 17, 2019 Report Share Posted April 17, 2019 Just now, Gorka said: Not in our lifetimes. Winner of the most far fetched statement thus far. I really cant see a robot arriving at your home to fix that pluming leak in the near future...or even the far future. There are, and will continue be, many, many jobs that only humans will be capable of doing. In the next 10 years you could very much end up having surgeries with no surgeon involved but you think it won't be able to unclog a pipe or replace one? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vambo Posted April 17, 2019 Author Report Share Posted April 17, 2019 Just now, LogicIsForSquares said: Well the concept of a job would be pretty well extinct. The traditional idea of currency may disappear. I don't know thus I am not the one out there doing social experiments. On paper, it should bomb. But that is why you test it out. So your idea is throw gas on a dumpster fire. It's hard to come up with a logical fix lacking so many unknowns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldBrownsFan Posted April 17, 2019 Report Share Posted April 17, 2019 Just now, LogicIsForSquares said: As it stands, sure. I have to deal with tons of deadbeats. They live on Medicaid and SS checks for fake injuries. If UBI tanks when tested, you move on to something else. Simple as that. But we already know that just handing out aid like this never works. The idea of planning ahead for future automation is a good thing but non starter ideas should be those with a proven failure record such as government just handing out cash. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LogicIsForSquares Posted April 17, 2019 Report Share Posted April 17, 2019 1 minute ago, Vambo said: So your idea is throw gas on a dumpster fire. It's hard to come up with a logical fix lacking so many unknowns. Or you adapt the stipulations for the UBI. Or you don't do much to it at all. You use the scientific method and see if they shit the bed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LogicIsForSquares Posted April 17, 2019 Report Share Posted April 17, 2019 2 minutes ago, OldBrownsFan said: But we already know that just handing out aid like this never works. The idea of planning ahead for future automation is a good thing but non starter ideas should be those with a proven failure record such as government just handing out cash. A future with no jobs and the idea of money maybe being pointless (an AI arm doesn't need money), we could end up having to give people the things they need. There would have to be a huge shift in how we deal with things in order for their to be some means to "earn" the things you receive. I am not opposed to it but if you stick with the jobs = earnings = your wants and needs formula, we may be hosed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calfoxwc Posted April 17, 2019 Report Share Posted April 17, 2019 2 minutes ago, LogicIsForSquares said: It is a fast enough approaching issue that we should attempt to plan for it. I am not saying UBI is the answer. But I am never mad at people trying to experiment to figure out of it does or does not work. I live in the land of awful planning and the locals are shitting glass because they didn't plan for a future where coal doesn't have the same value and need. I'm fine with testing a solution - in the classroom. The trouble is, this solution creates problems, fixes none. One problem it will create - is ingenuity. In American history, we have the incentive to accentuate creativity. I would say that takes the human mind to come up with ingenuity in designs/processes etc. Take campers - as we have been researching them. A robot in a camper factory will never notice that the commode area is a little too small, or the sink a little too low. The move around space too narrow, etc. The human mind has spawned dramatic innovation. That is fine for thinking way out in the future as an academic exercise, but send 500 dollar checks to a bunch of people so they will buy into dependency... sounds like "hey, let's fund the lives of the poor unwed mothers, so they will start NOT getting married and have kids on purpose out of wedlock because they get a free ride that way, and just live with their hus...I mean, boyfriend" yeah, that sure solved the problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vambo Posted April 17, 2019 Author Report Share Posted April 17, 2019 1 minute ago, LogicIsForSquares said: Or you adapt the stipulations for the UBI. Or you don't do much to it at all. You use the scientific method and see if they shit the bed. OK let's try our own experiment you give everyone who replied to you in this thread say $100 a piece a week for the next year and at the end we can give you a more informed rational solution to your question...OK? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calfoxwc Posted April 17, 2019 Report Share Posted April 17, 2019 LOL LOL LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LogicIsForSquares Posted April 17, 2019 Report Share Posted April 17, 2019 1 minute ago, Vambo said: OK let's try our own experiment you give everyone who replied to you in this thread say $100 a piece a week for the next year and at the end we can give you a more informed rational solution to your question...OK? I guess it is a bad thing for you guys that I am not a politician or a rich philanthropist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LogicIsForSquares Posted April 17, 2019 Report Share Posted April 17, 2019 4 minutes ago, calfoxwc said: I'm fine with testing a solution - in the classroom. The trouble is, this solution creates problems, fixes none. One problem it will create - is ingenuity. In American history, we have the incentive to accentuate creativity. I would say that takes the human mind to come up with ingenuity in designs/processes etc. Take campers - as we have been researching them. A robot in a camper factory will never notice that the commode area is a little too small, or the sink a little too low. The move around space too narrow, etc. The human mind has spawned dramatic innovation. That is fine for thinking way out in the future as an academic exercise, but send 500 dollar checks to a bunch of people so they will buy into dependency... sounds like "hey, let's fund the lives of the poor unwed mothers, so they will start NOT getting married and have kids on purpose out of wedlock because they get a free ride that way, and just live with their hus...I mean, boyfriend" yeah, that sure solved the problem. What would be your idea of how to address the people who don't have jobs? Of which there would be a whole bunch. Not asking that as snark. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldBrownsFan Posted April 17, 2019 Report Share Posted April 17, 2019 I remember an old Twilight Zone episode that brought up this idea 60 years ago. A plant manager kept replacing workers with automation and was heartless in doing it. All they while the plant manager would be swinging his stop watch while giving more and more employees the axe until finally he was the only human left at the factory. In the end the plant manager ends up at a bar with the rest of the unemployed after getting axed himself by a robot and the final scene shows Robby the robot swinging his stop watch in the former plant manager's office...Rod Sterling was ahead of his time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LogicIsForSquares Posted April 17, 2019 Report Share Posted April 17, 2019 1 minute ago, OldBrownsFan said: I remember an old Twilight Zone episode that brought up this idea 60 years ago. A plant manager kept replacing workers with automation and was heartless in doing it. All they while the plant manager would be swinging his stop watch while giving more and more employees the axe until finally he was the only human left at the factory. In the end the plant manager ends up at a bar with the rest of the unemployed after getting axed himself by a robot and the final scene shows Robby the robot swinging his stop watch in the former plant manager's office...Rod Sterling was ahead of his time. This may not be too far from reality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calfoxwc Posted April 17, 2019 Report Share Posted April 17, 2019 say, what do we do when aliens come to earth, and reprogram our robots to fight us? I need to go out and buy a battletank phaser jobbie to prepare for this future ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LogicIsForSquares Posted April 17, 2019 Report Share Posted April 17, 2019 Just now, calfoxwc said: say, what do we do when aliens come to earth, and reprogram our robots to fight us? I need to go out and buy a battletank phaser jobbie to prepare for this future ! Too late. You already didn't plan for the future when ghosts take over the machines and Jefferson Davis takes over the U.S. with his robot minions. The South will rise again....and never sleep! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vambo Posted April 17, 2019 Author Report Share Posted April 17, 2019 4 minutes ago, LogicIsForSquares said: I guess it is a bad thing for you guys that I am not a politician or a rich philanthropist. it just proves my point, it's OK to give money to people for nothing as long as it's someone else's money. Sooner or later even that runs out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorka Posted April 17, 2019 Report Share Posted April 17, 2019 7 minutes ago, LogicIsForSquares said: Or you adapt the stipulations for the UBI. Or you don't do much to it at all. You use the scientific method and see if they shit the bed. This is California. When have they not shit the bed. This time it's gonna be different? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LogicIsForSquares Posted April 17, 2019 Report Share Posted April 17, 2019 Just now, Vambo said: it just proves my point, it's OK to give money to people for nothing as long as it's someone else's money. Sooner or later even that runs out. Everyone has a beef with how the money is spent depending on their politics. See the first few posts about the homeless vets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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